Tour de France Champion Accused of Hacking 259
ub3r n3u7r4l1st writes "A French judge has issued a national arrest warrant for US cyclist Floyd Landis in connection with a case of data hacking at a doping laboratory, a prosecutor's office said. French judge Thomas Cassuto is seeking to question Landis about computer hacking dating back to September 2006 at the Chatenay-Malabry lab, said Astrid Granoux, spokeswoman for Nanterre's prosecutor's office. The laboratory near Paris had uncovered abnormally elevated testosterone levels in Landis' samples collected in the run-up to his 2006 Tour de France victory, leading to the eventual loss of his medal."
Hackers on Steroids (Score:4, Funny)
FINALLY that phrase makes some kind of sense.
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They warned us about "Hackers on steroids", and we laughed at them...
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Hackers Suspected of Blood Doping doesn't really have the same ring to it.
What a concept! (Score:4, Funny)
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That stereotype is overrated.
I cycle about 15km a day (5500km a year), which is mostly to and from work, plus going to places at weekends. I weigh ~60kg, which puts me on the lower end of "healthy weight" for my height. One of my IT colleagues rows regularly, another belongs to a football team, another goes to the gym most days. Many others cycle or walk to work. There are only a couple of people I'd consider overweight.
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That stereotype is overrated.
I cycle about 15km a day (5500km a year), which is mostly to and from work, plus going to places at weekends. I weigh ~60kg, which puts me on the lower end of "healthy weight" for my height. One of my IT colleagues rows regularly, another belongs to a football team, another goes to the gym most days. Many others cycle or walk to work. There are only a couple of people I'd consider overweight.
...and how often do they spend a weekend rebuilding their gentoo system to find the most optimum CFLAGS setting?
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oh god, talk about reasons to drink. The worst is when you check the console before bed and see it crapped out and died on the 2nd package of 400. rage!
I'm an idiot and have been attempting to replace puppy on my tablet with Gentoo. Even with distcc (distributed compiling) it is a painfully slow process. But fun :) Xorg and hal aren't getting along and i'm still mostly experienced with xf86 style configs : /
For the record, i'm only a neckbeard on long weekends and vacation time. 170 lbs at 70" (an imp
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Seriously now, it takes more than a single piece of anecdotal evidence to kill a stereotype! Good thing you're an IT guy and not a statistician. ;-)
Time for a Slashdot poll!
Otherwise, you will not pick up any girls (Score:2)
This is the reason geeks drives girls out of CS.
Landis grew up a Mennonite (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:Landis grew up a Mennonite (Score:5, Interesting)
Landis grew up with traditional Mennonites. His parents had to go to someone else's house to see his performance in the Tour de France because they don't even own a TV.
I get your point. I went to college in Harrisonburg, VA, deep in Mennonite territory. Many stores had hitching posts for the horse and buggies Mennonites drove, but on the other hand the lead engineer at the only non-PBS station there was a friend of mine and a Mennonite and knew electronics better than I ever will, but Landis was raised in a traditional family. One problem he had when he was younger and wanted to ride was having to always wear sweat pants when training due to their issues about modesty.
Re:Landis grew up a Mennonite (Score:5, Insightful)
The skills needed are to find someone who has the required computer skills and offer them something in exchange for doing a task.
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Or they have enough evidence to implicate him in being involved according to whatever the French rules are and hence want to arrest him.
I have no idea where on the scale of "I have a hunch" to "I have absolute proof" the French system draws the line for issuing arrest warrants.
Re:Landis grew up a Mennonite (Score:5, Informative)
As someone who grew up in Floyd Landis' hometown...German Mennonites are not really comparable to Amish when it comes to the use of computers and even some of the Amish themselves have fine computer skills (using them at the library, just not at their home). Landis' could very well have had the same level of exposure to a computer as a child as any other American his age.
Re:Landis grew up a Mennonite (Score:5, Insightful)
Come on, noone is suggesting he did it himself. According to the press, he was accused after his lawyer presented documents in his case that he did not obtain through official channels. It seems more likely to me (as a complete outsider) that they bribed someone who had access.
The usual accusations of anti Americanism are getting very tiresome. Every year, several riders are kicked out of the race and stripped of any stage victories after failing a doping test. Landis failed a doping test. This was just the first time it happened to the #1 after the finish at the champs elysees. Noone gets to appeal this decision in court. Every rider who performs exceptionally has always been suspected or accused of doping in the media, not just Armstrong. It's just that American sports fans aren't interested in cycling, just in Lance Armstrong.
Previous tour winners Pantani, Ulrich, Riis, Indurain etc were all accused in the media of taking dope - some of them were caught - all the way back to the days of Anquetil who sort of openly used doping before it was banned. I don't remember American 3 time tour winner Greg LeMond being accused of doping, but I'm sure he was.
The Floyd Landis case is considered particularily insulting, because the winner failing a drug test smeared the reputation of the tour even further. He never apologised and now 2 years later he still hasn't accepted guilt and is still appealing that decision. With his 2 year ban expired, he was planning to compete in this year's race. It looks like some people in France really wish he didn't.
Now the question whether this treatment professional cyclists get is fair is another matter. The doping tests are a huge invasion of privacy, and upon failing a test the athlete is presumed guilty and expelled immediately, facing long time bans with very little legal recourse. False positives and sabotage cannot be ruled out, and if doping cases were judged in a court of law, few athletes would be found guilty beyond reasonable doubt. It just doesn't normally get this far. After a failed dope test, they usually go 'Ok, I'm guilty. I'm so sorry, I'll never do it again, I'm totally anti-doping from now on'
so many are missing the point here (Score:3, Interesting)
Come on, noone is suggesting he did it himself
And I believe the actual point Landis is making is that he felt the drug testing companies were somehow in error, somehow-or--other hacked into their network, and unearthed evidence that supports his claim.
It's not surprising that a drug company would go on the offensive to try to cover up their mistakes. That's the entire point Landis is trying to make here. It doesn't look like he's necessarily even denying the doping charges. He's questioning the evidence
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Given the timing of this (4 years later, a few months before the next Tour), it looks like a pre-emptive attack to discredit Landis.
The Tour officials certainly played fast and loose with their labs and techniques, so it is hard to know who was right. In my eyes, they have little to no credibility.
Given the enormous consequences of their charges (and the fact that you are assumed guilty and then have to try and prove innocence), I'd like to see more disclosures of the relationship between the Tour and labs
Re:so many are missing the point here (Score:5, Informative)
I followed it closely at the time, but have forgotten the details by now. I'm sure google would be my friend. However, Landis' main complaint was that the lab results were poorly handled, poorly tracked, and altogether lacking a real chain of ownership to show they were even his samples. Furthermore, IIRC, the surprisingly high results for that day were incompatible with samples taken before and after. The kind of doping they accused him of would have left traces in the blood for some time afterwards, long enough for later tests to have shown something, which they didn't. And the samples they used were the backup samples, because they had lost the primary samples.
It smelled pretty bad from what I remember. It didn't mean he hadn't done it, but no court would ever have accepted their evidence, and to strip someone of a Tour de France championship because of it was pretty outrageous. IIRC he had also beaten the French favorite and the French have never taken much to foreigners who do that, especially Americans.
OTOH, I undoubtedly have forgotten a lot of the details, and I just don't care to look them up -- I mainly remember how shoddy their case was, how much it seemed like petty officials running amuck, and especially taking revenge for their gross carelessness and incompetence being shown to the world by some uppity bicycle rider. After all, everyone knows that the true purpose of any bicycle race is the glory of the promoters, not the racers.
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It is true that his defense was based upon the lab mishandling the samples, and claiming that there was no proof that the samples that tested positive were his. It is also true that tests before and after the positive test showed nothing. Nothing from before the positive is unlikely, as steroids tend to work based on continuous use, not a single use. Having nothing from samples after seems impossible. Steroids take a while to go out of the system.
There was no French favorite. The highest finishing Fren
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IIRC he had also beaten the French favorite and the French have never taken much to foreigners who do that, especially Americans.
In that same tour, the French favorite was also beaten by two Spaniards, a German, an Australian and a Russian, a pattern similar to that of the past 25 years or so.
False positives, laboratory fuckups and actual cheating are all much more likely than a French conspiracy against Landis on the basis of him being an American.
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Amazingly, LeMond is the only Tour winner in the last 25+ years not implicated in a doping scandel. I grew up about 30miles east of where Landis did and I'm an avid cyclist. I was very upset when news of his positive test came out, even more upset in the years since due to his continued denials. Sure the lab made some procedural mistakes, but in the end, he had artificial steroids in his system. Had taken the David Millar route: Admin, Aplogize, help reform.. I'd welcome him. Had he gone the Kohl route, adm
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I'm an avid cyclist too (though not a very good one)
There's nothing like that feeling of going over 30 mph purely by your own power or scaling that hill 2 minutes faster than last week...
Re:Landis grew up a Mennonite (Score:4, Interesting)
But what if, and this is a long shot, he's not just full of it? Sometimes people deny guilt because they're stupid, but every now and then people do it because they're actually innocent.
I can't help but feel like after this long, no sane person would still be proclaiming innocence if it wasn't true at all.
Re:Landis grew up a Mennonite (Score:5, Insightful)
Testing was much more lax in LeMond's day, so he could very well have skated by. The fact that he's so quick to join the accusers makes me wonder about his motives. And his claims that some of his best friends told him (and only him) in private that they doped says that either his friends are stupid or maybe he's not being truthful.
Armstrong sued the Tour for their claims and won. He's probably the most drug tested cyclist on the tour, yet all that comes out of the Tour is innuendo and whispers because there is no evidence of him doping. The officials so desperately want to implicate him but can't, so they throw out whispers instead. Of course, Armstrong is probably the best thing that ever happened to the Tour in the last 25+ years.
I don't know whether Landis did or didn't dope. I do know the claims made (that he would massively dope on the last stage) is inconsistent with the science involved (of how steroids work) and would make Landis an absolute idiot that it leaves questions. I can say that the evidence I saw from the hearings made me question the entire testing process used. In a normal court, Landis would have been found not guilty just on the labs very questionable procedures. Of course, in the Tour "court", if you're accused of doping, you are assumed guilty and have to then prove your innocence. Even the panel's findings suggested major problems with the testing procedures, but they stayed with the guilty assumption.
I'm waiting for the Tour to have a transparent process in place for testing so that there is no doubt by the public, but they have done absolutely nothing since then.
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Nothing says 'I'm on steroids' better than testicular cancer...
Re:Landis grew up a Mennonite (Score:4, Insightful)
Let me be clear here--I live in Lancaster, PA, near where Landis grew up. I think he's guilty, but it's still up to the French to conclusively show this. They haven't.
"Landis failed a doping test."
Landis suppsedly failed doping tests, plural. The initial first two results of which were thrown out due to abnormalities in lab handling.
What he was finally "convicted" of based on test results, he was never given the data of the test results to even review.
This is a very confusing case, partly because the details aren't reported clearly, and that there has been many steps and turns in the process. But the French wanted Landis to give up, and he didn't, and they've grown tired of his defense, so they essentially had a closed court conviction, which doesn't sit well with Landis or many onlookers.
I should also point out, what Landis was taking, while clearly a performance enhancer, was not detected in earlier tests of him during the same TDF. He started taking it DURING the TDF, in which the synthetic testosterone would have no play in his performance (testosterone is more a long term actor and a muscle builder, not short term); that's the other perplexing issue that's been raised but never explained, with most thinking it was maybe a pyschological or dare taking inducing edge, but it still makes little sense to start taking a longer term nont short term performance enhancer mid-race. In turn, some think something was spiked.
"The usual accusations of anti Americanism are getting very tiresome."
Why, because you believe the French are doing this fairly or because you're lazy? On ESPN, look at the commentary/conversations about this. You have French and EU fans ragging about how they gave more donations per capita to Haiti, as a measure of them being better than the US, of all things. While you may be tired about the anti-Americanism claims, it is and has been continuing to occur whether you like it or not. Bury your head in the sand if you wish, but to NOT think there is nationalistic focus and intent in this is insane.
When you have a French newspaper, owns the TDF, pulling old B samples, and testing them, without oversight, then slamming an American winner, without review, most would call that slander. That's what they did to Armstrong. Meanwhile, Bernard Hinault literally states he isn't drinking spring water, he's still celebrated as a national hero, not a cheater. Still. He presents awards at the TDF. Still. For those that don't know, Hinault is a 5 times French TDF winner who openly stated, when asked about steroid use at the TDF, something to the effect "Well, you don't win the Tour drinking spring water." Where's the movement to strip his titles?
"Pantani, Ulrich, Riis, Indurain"
I know that Pantani and Ulrich were caught doping after their wins in other races, and they were not stripped of titles since it didn't occur DURING the TDF, yet they only tried that with Armstrong.
"I don't remember American 3 time tour winner Greg LeMond being accused of doping, but I'm sure he was."
LeMond had been currently going after Armstrong. The strongest evidence against LeMond was circumstantial and not during any of his TDF years; it was during his couple of comebacks after his hunting accident. He ripped ligaments repeatedly, and the whispers were that sort of damage was due to steroid use he was using to recover.
"The Floyd Landis case is considered particularily insulting, because the winner failing a drug test smeared the reputation of the tour even further. He never apologised and now 2 years later he still hasn't accepted guilt and is still appealing that decision. With his 2 year ban expired, he was planning to compete in this year's race. It looks like some people in France really wish he didn't."
"even further"--key words here--the TDF was already smeared with doping scandals, with teams and prior winners conclusively found to be doping.
Landis wasn't. Partly because he didn't roll over. Which the French foun
Re:Landis grew up a Mennonite (Score:4, Insightful)
My point is that they've all been suspected or accused of doping, including French cyclists, not just Armstrong and Landis.
Doping enforcement was a lot more lenient in the 70's and early 80's. Eddie Merckx was actually caught several times, for example, but it didn't hurt his career.
Today it is unbelievably draconian. Never failing a drug test is not considered proof of innocence in the public eye. The Festina team was banned in 1998 purely based on circumstantial evidence. None of the riders tested positive, despite the irrefutable proof that they had been taking it.
But you're right that the sort of evidence used to ban riders from cycling usually wouldn't stand up in court if it was handled by the law. Landis isn't the first who persists in not admitting guilt, if you remember Virenque...
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I thought I'd reply to this...
I'm not sure I'd agree with the "guilt" portion.
In short, the lab totally screwed up a (comparatively) very simple test that "showed" guilt.
In the course of the case, it was clear they had totally botched that simple test.
A much more technically difficult test using mass spectroscopy was a follow-up to the original test. The software on the MS machine was out of date and not certified for use in that configuration etc.
The prosecution wants us to believe that even though the lab
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For what it's worth, Landis' failed doping test is, at least a little, controversial. The lab that analyzed it was the same one that dug up a B sample of Lance Armstrong that was over a decade old and claimed it tested positive. The ensuing investigation concluded that the lab's practices were woefully inadequate and recommended that they not be used again.
That they were used to test A samples from such a high-profile event is disgraceful. That they test the B samples as well when the A samples are positive
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Really, I can't understand public can still have an interest in Tour de France with all these dope scandals.
How can people still be interested in pop music or movies with all these drug scandals?
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when we push the limits of sports the way we do, most professional athletes will do everything in their power to succeed. chances are, if they aren't taking anything illegal to the sport, they are using a substance that may very well become illegal in the future. Moral reasons aside, if a certain combination of
Re:Landis grew up a Mennonite (Score:5, Informative)
There is a small problem with the French regarding the Tour: They're not thrustworthy in their judgement. If Floyd Landis had been named Richard Virenque the tests would probably have mysteriously disappeared. I'm not saying that he didn't cheat, but the French are very often using double standards regarding cycling...
I guess it has something to do with Armstrong winning the tour 7 times in a row which their own heroes Anquetil and Hinault never could...
You mean like Richard Virenque who was ejected from the Tour in 1998 by French officials in the Festina scandal and who became a virtual pariah in his home country for his continued refusal to admit his guilt?
You don't read about non-Americans being accused of doping because you don't read about cyclists who aren't Lance Armstrong. All successful professional cyclists of the last 3 or 4 decades have been accused / suspected of doping.
Re:Landis grew up a Mennonite (Score:5, Informative)
Please readjust your thinking about Mennonites... you are so very wrong that you almost circle completely back again.
I will state for a fact that I am Mennonite. I got my first computer when I was 6 (1988) and I am currently employed as a software developer.
Although the Amish and the Old Order are Mennonites (which are among the few sects that have community restrictions on technology) the reverse is not true. It is equivalent to me saying that you are Christian, sometimes mistaken as Mormon. I'm not saying it's impossible for you to be monagamous, but I'm sure you were raised in a polygamous cult.
I will further add to my comment in saying that I do know some Old Order and Amish people, and have had a nice long conversation with an Old Order deacon and teacher who explained that it is not technology that they shun, but anything new that may split their community. They take a very long time to evaluate new techology (usually about 300 years or so) but they do use some modern equipment. The Old Order community that I was on used modern combines (computer controlled) in order to quickly and efficiently harvest their fields.
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Amish also can have special battery operated Computers that let them do excel, word, etc. They also can use battery operated signals, and normally have a generator in the barn. There is also a trend for them to have a phone installed outside the house (in inconvenient distance away) with voice mail for emergencies, and Amish communities are probably the one place in the US that phone booths still make profits.
The issue isn't electricity, it is having the world outside their community intrude on their liv
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OTOH Mormons seem to be very tech savvy. Or at least the one I know :)
Warrant only applies to France (Score:3, Interesting)
The warrant only applies to France. They are not seeking extradition. I do not know if Landis was actually guilty or not, but given the suspicious behavior of the lab and the French authorities during the initial doping case, it sounds to me like they simply want to prevent him from cycling in France ever again.
If the way he was riding last year in any indication, he would not be a contender for even a stage win in the TdF, but there is concern that he could take 20th overall, knocking the highest placing Frenchman to 21st.
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The warrant only applies to France. They are not seeking extradition.
He's a professional bicyclist. Not being able to go to France is basically ruining his career.
It's like saying you can keep your car but no gas.
It's like saying you can have your pizza but no crust.
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No, riding slowly is ruining his career.
If he wins a stage or finishes top 10 in the GC at the Giro, then maybe the ban from France will be hurting his career.
Re:Warrant only applies to France (Score:5, Funny)
>
>He's a professional bicyclist. Not being able to go to France is basically ruining his career.
> It's like saying you can keep your car but no gas.
> It's like saying you can have your pizza but no crust.
>
It's like raaaaaaiiiiiiiiiin on your wedding day....
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Anyone who watched Landis win the TdF and has followed the issue can find much more wrong with the tests than valid with them. He's been using a meter on his bike to measure his power output longer than other riders and he actually used less power in the day of that amazing catch-up ride than he did on many other days. Also, the drug he's accused of using is a blood level drug, one that provides most of the benefit over time and it builds up in the body, yet in the tests two and three days later there is
Re:Warrant only applies to France (Score:5, Insightful)
I've been using a Cognitive Dissonance Meter for longer that most people, and it's just gone off the scale. No, you can't see it. It's myCognitive Dissonance Meter. You'll just have to trust me.
Sure there is. There's the USADA finding synthetic testosterone in 4 out of 7 'B' samples [go.com], while Landis' coterie of lawyers wailed how unfair it was to run the synthetic tests on his B samples when his other A samples had shown clean. That's like complaining that the cops found weed in your glove compartment when you hadn't left any lying out on the dash.
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If a scientific test is to have any meaning, it must be consistent and repeatable. If it tests positive on one sample and negative on the second, then either one of the samples has been altered, or that test was incorrectly done, or the test is unreliable because its results are not consistent and repeatable. You can't just ignore a negative result because you also have a positive one.
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Sure there is. There's the USADA finding synthetic testosterone in 4 out of 7 'B' samples [go.com], while Landis' coterie of lawyers wailed how unfair it was to run the synthetic tests on his B samples when his other A samples had shown clean. That's like complaining that the cops found weed in your glove compartment when you hadn't left any lying out on the dash.
No, it's complaining that if the tests are so shoddy and/or temperamental that they only find something in half of one sample, and none in the other, ie 3/4 of the samples show nothing, you must believe the 1/4 which show something.
If a jury votes 9-3 for acquittal, you must believe the 3 for guilty.
I can't wait to see this warrant goes to Interpol (Score:2)
and see the fireworks goes off!
Come on, the German has conquered Paris in ONE week during World War II.
Re:Warrant only applies to France (Score:5, Interesting)
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If you read the link, the USADA determined nothing. It was the same French lab that is the center of the controversy that tested the B samples.
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So they found something in 4 of 7 B samples. They found NOTHING in 7 of 7 A samples.
Sounds like the test is bullshit. Results appear non-repeatable with identical samples.
That's not Science, it's a witch hunt.
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Hasn't it been like 25 years since the last Frenchman (Hinault) won the Tour De France?
Re:Warrant only applies to France (Score:5, Interesting)
A ex-coworker of mine was in the second french cycling league.
He was very close to getting into the first league. So he informed himself. And the rules are:
1. Learn how to touch the wheel of the one in front of you in a way that makes him fall down, or at least slower.
2. Use doping. Period. Or else you won’t get in the first league.
There is a system against doping. This is how it is supposed to work:
Doctors from the competing teams do the doping tests on you. Because they have the greatest interest in fucking up your team.
This is how it actually works:
The doctors are the one administering the doping. And everyone does it. So if anyone would tell the truth, his own team would be dead in the blink of an eye. Which means nobody really tests anything. It’s the concept of mutually assured destruction.
Now you may realize, that every “doping scandal” only was someone falling from grace. (Which can end in a large flame-war, like when pretty much every team suddenly gets “caught”.)
This tactic also works in horse races (Score:3, Informative)
Jockeys intentionally apply whips to the horse next to theirs, thus messing with the other jockey whip timing, and their horse will suffer or slow down due to this.
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You xenophobic idiot. Last time a frenchman won the tour de France was in 1985 - that's 25 years ago.
Wow. Not only do they suck at cycling, they also suck at cheating!
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I could believe it is true that they suck at cheating.
They also have the reputation to suck at under-cover operations where their intelligence services get caught or screw-up doing even the simplest things ;-))
Here is one of their most known case:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior [wikipedia.org]
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-ps, I am part french, and I really hate that part
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I'm French, and I'm baffled. How can this kind of comment make it to Insightful ?
Slashdot has a tradition of Americans on the site bashing the French about their capitulation during WWII (which is easier than owning up to the fat that their country didn't even want to get involved) or the fact they didn't support them during the war on Iraq (made worse by the revelations that the French were right).
They appear to forget that if it were not for the French aid during their War of Independence that there woul
No offsite backup? (Score:2, Insightful)
They probably do... (Score:2)
have a secret copy of the REAL result of the test, saved in a certain bunker somewhere.
He is accused of directing the "hacking", not (Score:5, Informative)
actually engaging in it.
Asperger's Syndrome (Score:2, Funny)
Title inaccurate (Score:3, Informative)
The title is inaccurate, as Landis is not a Tour de France champion. What an athlete is stripped of a title, it means you shouldn't be using that title to describe the athlete any more. Logical, no?
Seeking to question, so make an arrest? (Score:2, Interesting)
I guess I'm a little confused about the French laws and I'm hoping someone can help. They issued an arrest warrant because "Judge Thomas Cassuto ... is seeking to question Landis...." In the U.S. you don't issue an arrest warrant simply to question someone, do you? Maybe I'm just a little confused about the legal terminology, but I doubt I'm the only one. Some searches didn't really prove fruitful (they actually seem to support my view regarding the U.S.).
So, do the French actually file charges against
Only so many places to race (Score:2)
Floyd's got to think twice before visiting France again. Maybe the French would prefer he stay at home this racing season.
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Why is this modded troll? Wikipedia appears to agree [wikipedia.org]:
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Nevertheless, the original post appears to me to be factually correct, unless you're disputing "he cheated" and would prefer something more like "He was accused of cheating".
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Nope, I think that the word "champion" was used in order to raise the chances of the submission to get published ;-)
I submitted the same story yesterday in less flamboyant terms and it did not make it ;-))
http://slashdot.org/submission/1173262/Cyclist-Floyd-Landis-Accused-Of-Hacking [slashdot.org]
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The official decision was to strip him of his title. I just don't understand why. Perhaps someone can clarify. He had daily tests. One day he is clean. The next day he crashed, had a surge of adrenaline and made up tons of ground after the crash. His testosterone was exceptionally high the day of the crash. It was normal again the next day. No drugs were found in his system.
So his crime was having exceptionally high testosterone for one day after a natural massive adrenaline surge.
I admit I'm biased in not
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I didn't say he was definitely innocent. I said I admit I'm biased because of the Lance Armstrong story. However the details that I've read don't add up.
Perhaps you can enlighten me on the details I'm apparently missing out on.
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just to let you know, Lance Armstrong is notoriously doped. Everybody with a bit of common sense won't dispute that.
Possibly, but i hope you don't believe it was doping that made the difference between Lance Armstrong and Jan Ulrich.
The whining about Anti Americanism is getting tiresome though. Ever since doping was first banned in the late '60's, ALL of the most exceptional cyclists have always been accused or suspected of using doping in the media, not just the American ones! Some were caught sometimes, like the great Eddie Merckx, and some, like Armstrong and Indurain have never been caught.
Dozens of French contenders
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why would I believe that? Both Armstrong and Ulrich are/were doped, only Armstrong didn't get caught properly, Ulrich is still banned from cycling from the german federation fyi
I'm sure he would still have been the greatest if doping had never been invented...
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Armstrong is perhaps the single most tested athlete on the planet, and he has never failed a single test.
Surely common sense would dictate that means he is guilty. Wait, how does that add up?
Nevermind, you're an AC troll.
Re:Champion? (Score:4, Informative)
There were several issues with the case in general:
- There were several mistakes with tracking numbers of the so-called anonymous samples; these numbers should have all been consistent, but were not. In some cases, white-out was used to make corrections.
- There were irregularities in test procedures, including with calibration of the device used to test the testosterone level. The technicians appeared to not be competent in the operation of the device, and interpretation of results.
- One the original test results sheet provided to Landis and his defense team, there were actually 3 test results, and 2 of them were below the allowed threshold. Personnel from other UCI-approved labs have stated (in confidence) that those results would not have triggered a test failure in their lab. These personnel are not allowed to testify in the arbitration hearing, since they are barred from doing so by the UCI as a condition of becoming a UCI-approved lab.
- The test was not measuring testosterone levels, which vary by person and situation, but a ratio of one kind of testosterone to another. The actual testosterone level was not high, but the amount of the 'other testosterone', whose level is the denominator, was low.
- These were supposed to be anonymous tests, but the results were announced in haste by the UCI because the French press had gotten the results from the lab, and were about to go public with them. This should be a major strike against the lab.
- The arbitration hearings that result in a suspension do not appear to be at all like a normal legal proceeding, and they seem to be organized to rubber stamp (my opinion, of course) the results of the test lab. Landis' team introduced facts that helped their case, but it doesn't look like the 3-judge panel was all that interested in facts. Even so, the vote against him was 2-1, so one of the judges did not believe the test results either.
There is a good paper on the case, written by a retired criminalist (whatever that is), at this location: http://www.cacnews.org/news/4thq07.pdf
Some are saying that Landis' performance on the stage on which he tested positive was 'super-human', but he was riding with a PowerTap (which measures power output at the rear wheel hub), and it indicated that he was riding at power levels that he had ridden at in previous races that year (and for which he did not test positive for elevated testosterone). One unusual circumstance of the performance was that he rode ahead early in the race so that he was riding alone, allowing his team car to be near him most of the way, and to keep giving him cold water bottles, around 90 in all. 80 of these he used to douse himself, allowing him to stay cool (it was in the upper 90's in temp), while those in the pack did not have that luxury.
Re: (Score:2)
It is a shame when people make informative posts as an AC, because many people filter ACs out.
Re:Champion? (Score:5, Informative)
I don't think this is entirely accurate. From what I can recall, the case against Landis was from two tests. The first showed that his T/E ratio was well outside the normal ratio for humans. Note that this is different from having elevated testosterone, in fact I believe his testosterone was actually lower than normal. It was just that his epiesterone was WAY lower than normal (these are normally about equal, his ratio was 12/1). As far as I remember this test was somewhat discredited due to shoddy procedures at the lab. The one that stuck was an isotope test which showed that the testosterone in his sample had a different isotope ratio than is found in humans. From this they concluded that it was synthetic and thus upheld the ban. I don't claim to entirely agree with all of their methods or even the results of the test, but I really don't think it's fair to say that he crashed, had a surge of adrenaline and subsequently tested positive.
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I hadn't heard about the isotope test, but that makes more sense. Thanks.
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The testosterone levels found could not have occurred naturally. There was also evidence of exogenous testosterone.
Flandis made all sorts of claims, most of which involve someone tampering with the samples. Maybe that happened, but he wasn't able to show that to the satisfaction of the judges, both French and American. If we expect to keep banned substances out of cycling we have to have some means of testing for them, and what we have now are best means we've devised so far. We either accept their decision
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Again, I find it odd that he would have this huge imbalance for one day, but not the next day.
I thought the effect of steroids lasted more than a single day.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Do you have statistics on that?
Also, is hacking such a mystical activity for you that you want it to remain magically hard and uncomprehensable for yourself, that the tought of a cyclist (which you've stereotyped for yourself in some way) would rob you off all selfpriding and selfattributed intelligence if he would be able to pull something off you cannot, in your self constructed world where hackers are evil geniusses? (th
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Everyone knows computer geeks have less muscle mass and stamina than your average coma patient.
As a current and longtime comatose patient I can indeed attest to this...
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How you feel about the technology of the Belgian neurologist, who brought you a means of communication while in coma?
What word do you think about to indicate "yes"?
Re: (Score:2)
What word do you think about to indicate "yes"?
Porn
Re:Hacking cyclists? (Score:5, Funny)
Oh come on, a hacking cyclist? Everyone knows professional cyclists are even dumber than professional soccer players. The French just can't stand loosing from Yanks, look at all the allegations they made against Lance Armstromg.
Oh, look, everybody, the troll is even dumber than a professional soccer player.
What's the matter with you? Did a French soccer player knock up your mom?
Zinedine Zidane (Score:2)
headbutted his mom.
Top Cyclists are pretty smart. (Score:4, Informative)
Uh.... I have two state time trial championships, and finished fourth in my class at the American Mountain Bike Championships. Top cyclists are pretty smart people, and you have to be to get your body in the kind of shape to perform at that level.
A friend who has won over 6 state championships says the strongest guys doesn't always with, but the smartest strong guy usually does. He fits that description to a T.
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Top cyclists are pretty smart people, and you have to be to get your body in the kind of shape to perform at that level.
Yes, well those drug names can be very difficult to spell ...
I'm so tired of all this "I had a bit of a cold coming on", so instead of taking a bloody Aspirin, they take some wierd "cold cure remedy" with an unpronounceable name that just happens to contains the very steriods and performance enhancers that they KNOW are banned for professional sports.
Come on, who the hell do they think the
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Most of the banned cold medicines don't contain steroids or performance enhancers. When your body metabolizes them, though, the resulting chemicals are the same as the metabolites of banned substances. Or sometimes they're just chemically similar enough to trigger the same tests as the metabolites of banned substances. A lot of the banned substances are not banned because they contain performance-enhancing substances, but because banning them is believed to reduce the rate of type I and type II errors.
Al
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
He's not a TdF champion, he's a cheat who had his medal withdrawn.
I don't think the prize for winning the TDF is a medal.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
There's an aspect many seem to be directly working to gloss over: If he did indeed hire people to do that, there may very well have been sabotage too, such as altering of data, a trojan that alters the file when it's recalled from backup etc. If you're in so much that you can swipe the file and remove all the traces of a break-in, you can do the other stuff too. And given the amounts of money involved at the Tour level, it's definitely something that would be done if the chance of getting away with it was c
Re: (Score:2)
Doping himself was unforgivable. Now if he had doped a young girl and then raped her, the French would be celebrating him as a hero.
You know, I think AC intended this to be a troll but it's honestly kind-of true so pretty damn funny..
Re: (Score:2)
An average Frenchman doesn't pour that much water over himself in a year.