Canada's Airlines Face a Privacy Dilemma 457
Interoperable writes "Canada's airlines are caught between a rock and a hard place in the face of new US regulations that require them to collect and hand over personal information about passengers. Handing over information regarding a passenger's name, gender and birth-date may violate Canadian privacy laws but merely flying over American airspace is conditional on doing exactly that. It seems that the long arms of the TSA are eager to grope at Canadians taking a shortcut to Toronto; no doubt to prevent any terrorist attacks on Lake Huron."
US bullying and demanding other countries.. (Score:5, Insightful)
.. to do exactly what they say, or suffer?
Now I didn't see this one coming.
Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (Score:5, Insightful)
... and then they wonder why they're fast becoming a 3rd world country when nobody else wants to deal with them any more.
It's strange to watch, in modern times, an empire committing suicide through paranoia.
Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Modern is relative, and all empires collapse from internal and/or external pressures.
I guess what you mean, is you didn't expect it to happen in YOUR time.
Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (Score:5, Interesting)
It will be interesting to see how closely the US' end follows the USSR's end.
Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (Score:5, Informative)
And it isn't that long ago in historical terms since the British Empire as a superpower fell apart.
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you surely mean "cursed".
Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (Score:5, Informative)
Do you understand what a Third World country is?
"The term Third World arose during the Cold War to define countries that remained non-aligned or neutral with either capitalism and NATO." When the US pulls out of NATO and becomes neutral, then it will be a Third World country.
As for empire, the US is not imperial, it is a hegemony.
Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Isn't that exactly what we used to criticize the Soviet Union for doing? We stared into the abyss all right, but the abyss stared right back into us.
Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (Score:5, Insightful)
We used to criticize the Soviets for everything, be it rational or not. :)
BTW we criticized them for not letting people LEAVE their borders, not for controlling their own airspace and controlling border ingress.
A country belongs to its people, not other people. Not its neighbors.
Those not liking how it runs its internal affairs or controls access to its territory are free to express their discontent by boycott and routing around the problem.
Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (Score:4, Informative)
We used to criticize the Soviets for everything, be it rational or not. :)
BTW we criticized them for not letting people LEAVE their borders, not for controlling their own airspace and controlling border ingress.
Interestingly, we're already at that point: U.S. readies plan to ID departing visitors [washingtonpost.com], Nov. 8. 2009.
Now, granted, it doesn't say that people will be prevented from leaving, but I suggest you think about it for a moment. What is the purpose of identifying people who leave, other than to control who leaves?
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You're missing the point. You log when they enter and log when they leave. Anyone who isn't logged leaving is counted as still being in the country. This lets you know how many people are still there and how many have overstayed. You can circulate the details of people who have overstayed to law enforcement and pick them up when they use a credit card or similar.
As you point out in your subsequent anecdote, we already log I-94 forms when visitors leave. We have been doing this for many years. The additional ID checks do nothing to help log when people leave.
Also, perhaps you haven't noticed, but as of January 18, 2009, even permanent residents, who by definition are not capable of overstaying their visa, are also fingerprinted at the border [cnet.com].
Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (Score:4, Insightful)
A country belongs to its people, not other people. Not its neighbors.
He said in defense of one country telling its neighbor to disregard their own privacy laws.
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We just need others like China, India, and France to do the same. Then the airlines themselves will give the US the finger and move out.
I REALLY love to travel, go places, meet new people, and work all over. But for my next job, I am seriously considering not looking at consulting, but rather a simple 8-5 office job. Every once in a while, the security theater, the mass hysteria/fear, and the sheer inefficient cost of it all drives me to the point where I want to leave the country, and relinquish my cit
Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (Score:4, Interesting)
I traveled atleast every 2 weeks for the past 2-3 years around the southern-mid and eastern part of the US and the ONLY downside for me in traveling were the security checks. I got used to the checks, I could get through them in less than 10-15 minutes.
Not really a big deal in terms of time, but it was VERY irritating. To me it seemed very much like "security theater." I like being mildly efficient, but what I saw was anything but. So things like airport security really get to me, especially the TSA people (not all, about 1 in every 5 or so) who are TOTAL retarts!!! They are basically poorly programmed robots who have no clue what they are doing. They get orders, or what appear to be orders, and they try to follow them to the letter. The actual "security" aspect of their job seems to be missing.
I used to take flights all the time, to go almost anywhere before 9/11, but today I drive anything under 6 hours. Even did a 10 hour drive once instead of a flight (mostly due to cost and last minute), and ended up getting there sooner than a few of my coworkers (oddly less stressed than one or two of them).
Even the company and my coworkers have changed their behavior over this time. If we got far off places, we stay the weekend with a rental rather than fly back every weekend. Or we drive to the 5-6 hour clients. Or we telecommute (crappiest option), or in rare cases, we don't take on the client. I know people who quit because of the required travel (when noone wants to, the low level grunts have to).
Its not all bad in the US, yet, but we are (IMHO) definitely going in the wrong direction. Probably won't get bad enough for me to leave anytime soon, but it is irritating enough that I daydream of expatriate positions, and am seriously considering dropping consulting.
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Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Airspace is sovereign territory. Requiring conditions of those who enter it may be onerous, but it isn't odd.
Don't like the conditions, don't go there. Boycott the US.
Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't like the conditions, don't go there. Boycott the US.
This is about flights that are only traveling through US airspace, not landing in the US, so they are already not going there.
The US is certainly within its rights to do this, but it is a very odd thing to do nonetheless: it doesn't increase US security at all, and further tarnishes our already very tarnished image.
The world is increasingly boycotting the US, and things like this simply accelerate the trend. That is a bad thing, since we rely on the cooperation of the world to maintain our standard of living, technology, and, yes, security.
Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (Score:5, Insightful)
This is about flights that are only traveling through US airspace, not landing in the US, so they are already not going there.
Someone hijacks a flight passing through US airspace but not landing in it to pull off an attack similar to the attack on the World Trade Center. That's the reason for the condition. Whether the existence of the condition is necessary or not is up for debate, but that's the reason those conditions exist.
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Yes, I understand that. But it's pointless, as someone could just as easily hijack a Canadian (or Central American, for that matter) flight that was not intended to enter US airspace -- and therefore not subject to US "screening," then make it enter US airspace and pull off the same stunt anyway.
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Aircrafts not intended to US airspace is handled by NORAD. Aircrafts we know will be entering airspace is checked at the anal probe line. Aircrafts that we don't know about that enters US airspace is handled by shot-range air-to-air missiles after sufficient warnings have been given over radio.
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Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (Score:5, Insightful)
To be honest with you, I just don't care anymore. If someone crashes a plane and kills a few thousand Americans, I no longer see that as adequate justification for the nonsense millions of air travellers have to put up with every single day. Sure have your minutes silence at the UN. Have a few for all those victims of starvation and genocide while you're at it.
But please, let me get a flight my country to another country and back without having to take off my shoes and belt, step through a perv machine, give up all my data to third party TSAs, and sit for an hour without a book, drink, mp3 player, laptop or the right to take a piss, just because you think you're so important that I might just hijack the plane, fly it across the Atlantic and crash it into your local Wal-mart.
Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm an American, and I actually agree with you.
I don't want to see anybody die, but it's all about acceptable risk. We make decisions about acceptable risk all the time, and one of the ones we make is to drive and allow others to drive -- in spite of the fact that orders of magnitude more people die each and every year directly because of this behavior than because of terrorist acts.
Our response to the risk of terrorist attacks is completely out of proportion to the actual risk.
Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Our response to the risk of terrorist attacks is completely out of proportion to the actual risk
Even worse, the new measures are only marginally more effective than the old measures.
The only things that went wrong with the 9/11 attacks were policy issues - like what passengers/staff should do in the event of a hijacking, how the military should respond in the case of losing contact with an airplane that has changed course, and locking the cockpit for the duration of the flight.
The rest of what needed to change were behind the scenes intelligence stuff - the TSA is all for show, it does basically nothing to improve our security, as the most recent event indicates. All it does is harrass American citizens to try to make them feel safer. It's bullshit.
Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm sorry, Your Highness - if we had been informed of your arrival, we wouldn't have DREAMED of inconveniencing you just for the sake of saving a few thousand lives. You should really consider wearing your Tiara, next time, so that our screening lackeys can more easily recognize you in a crowd.
Your silliness aside, we do sacrifice thousands of lives every year for many reasons, some of which are the inconvenience required to save them. Is that stupid? Not necessarily. A world of vastly reduced risk would also have vastly reduced rewards and individual freedoms. And that assumes we know the right thing to do (or not do) to eliminate everything that could kill you or me or anyone else.
We could reduce premature death by forcing lifestyle changes on people. We could make cars far safer, but almost certainly more expensive to buy and operate. We could make obtaining a drivers license more challenging. We do all these things, to some extent and in some places, but we do consider inconvenience when we do. It is completely appropriate to discuss these trade-offs, despite your objections, excellency
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Dude, only the idiots responded by demanding greater safeguards. I figured that even if terrorist crashed 10 more planes, my odds where better at flying than driving on vacation, so I booked a super-discounted fare for a long-awaiting vacation right after 9/11. Saved me a bundle.
If you really think that the only people affected by seat belt laws are the ones who choose not to wear them, then look at your tax withholdings next paycheck and just imagine what percent goes to paying inflated medicare expenses
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Would you care if the plane that crashes just kills you, your family, and any pets you may have? What if instead of crashing a plane, someone just kills you, your family, and your pet but save the hassle of air travelers? We'd save a whole aircraft too!
Or is it totally different when your survival is on the line?
You're using an appeal to emotion? Go for it man! As we all know, whoever brings out the kids and puppies wins any argument against reason and logic.
Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Really? How many people have died in Darfur in the last month? Do you have to look it up? If you don't keep that information in your head then you clearly don't care.
There's nothing wrong with not caring. Everybody does it. Too many people die every day around the world. It simply isn't practical to care.
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And what about the poor people in the USA who then suffer from reduced visitors, whether academic, tourist or friends and family? When the US government's laws affect other nations, the US pays the price as well. The people of the US are victims of this too.
Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (Score:5, Insightful)
The people of the US are victims of this too.
The people of the US are party to this. Until we stop our government from committing these excesses in our name, we must share the responsibility.
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I'll accept my share of the responsibility the instant anyone can show me how I am to get my elected representatives to actually REPRESENT my position on issues.
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Meanwhile, in other news, Canada requires all US airlines using their airspace (for great circle routes to Alaska as well as Europe) to post full body scan images of all passengers on a publicly available website prior to entering Canadian airspace.
Some terrorist might bring a US airliner down on Shivering Moose, Alberta and that's got to be prevented at all costs.
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First, these are airlines not landing in the US.
Second, this is a slippery slope. It's perfectly legal for Canadians to travel to Cuba, and many do for vacations. It's not that much of a stretch for the US to gather names of Canadians travelling to Cuba and then ban them from entering the US for that reason. (maybe not under a Democrat president but probably under a Republican one).
Basically it's none of their freakin business where I decide to travel to if I'm not stopping in their country.
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Depending on where you live, you already are. I don't see it as a problem, unless the majority (or larger minorities) start into the racism that they blame the "white" man for. Honestly, it's really weird to be one of the few white people in the area. Not for the sake of being the minority, but the racism that can accompany it. For the most part though, people are people, and treat you equally. It's the exceptions that are the problems, and the GP post is one of them.
Fuck you America ... (Score:2, Insightful)
So I say ever other country starts finger-printing and frisking Americans just as a matter of policy.
See how long before the state departments starts whining about that.
This is precisely why I won't fly into a US airport. Fuck 'em, you country no longer interests me.
Re:Fuck you America ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Fuck you America ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, when I flew from the UK to Rome a few months ago, it was very noticeable that the staff on arrival were friendly and helpful, and the visible security consisted of a perfunctory passport check and one guard with a dog.
Flying home to Stansted in the UK, we were greeted by long queues and a passport check by someone looking down their nose at us as though it was beneath them to grant us entry to our own country, under the watchful eyes of several armed police officers who hadn't been properly trained to point their weapons somewhere safe when not using them.
I don't know where it all went wrong in the UK and the US, but the Italians are clearly doing something better than we are.
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Same when I went to Belgium. Get off the Eurostar in Brussels, quick and efficient and welcoming. Coming back to the UK, lines of miserable people being funneled past a grim little checkpoint. The contrast was quite stark.
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Unfortunately, that includes also corruption.
In the UK, we have a government endorsed by only 22% of the population at the last general election (and only around 1/3 of those who actually voted). They didn't even win the popular vote in England. And then there's the West Lothian question.
We currently have a Prime Minister who was never approved by the electorate. (Please everyone, spare us any comments about voting for a party instead of a PM; the party in question explicitly and repeatedly stated before the last general election that Tony Blair would
Re:Fuck you America ... (Score:5, Informative)
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But you do not even need to enter. This applies if you're even flying over US, lets say Canada->Mexico.
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I don't think the article mentioned it, but the posted story did. Flights to/from YYZ (Toronto) may cross American borders on approach or departure. They do run flights down to Mexico and Cuba, which I'm fairly sure transit over American airspace.
I know the Canada Cuba flights already have the US Government's interest though. If there's an American on board without permissions (like, most of us won't have), we'll get nailed because of the ongoing embargo. While they did c
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But Brazil only fingerprints and photographs people from the US. And that is reciprocity for having its citizens fingerprinted and photographed in the US.
Other countries (Peru, Panama, Bolivia, ...) charge more fees if you're from the US to cover for immigration and customs procedures.
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And Argentina just recently started charging US passport holders $131 for entry, as reciprocity for the same treatment of Argentines entering the U.S.
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Oh yeah? Well fine then, no more Celine Dion for you!
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One person alone won't be missed.
As businesses start to find significant numbers of their staff can't or won't visit the US, and ever more tourists avoid it in favour of more hospitable destinations, the US will feel the pain.
As I've had cause to remark several times in recent months, the US is no longer the world's superpower, it just hasn't realised it yet. If it continues to throw its weight around, then when the tables are inevitably turned and the US finds itself increasingly reliant on the goodwill of
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The US isn't the world's superpower?
Name another state that can project tens to hundreds of thousands of troops across the planet and fight for eight years.
Name another state that has more than three aircraft carriers.
Name another state that has more than ten aircraft carrier battlegroups.
Name another state with more than half of the top 500 super computers - http://www.top500.org/stats/list/34/countries [top500.org]
The United States has a list of strengths no other nation or union of nations possesses. Russia has the n
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That sort of attitude is exactly why the US is not a superpower any more, but hasn't noticed it yet. You assume that a big military is what matters. How stereotypically egotistical!
Where has US military power got it in recent years? It has toppled a government in a far away land, at a vast cost to its economy, not to mention losing hundreds of military personnel and posting hundreds of thousands away from their families for extended periods.
Meanwhile, the US remains the world's biggest polluter and US citiz
Re:Fuck you America ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Some factual errors there kiddo
What does the United States make anymore?
Software
BZZTT! Wrong! Well, kinda wrong. If we're talking about commercial software, then you kinda have this one right - Apple for example. But Microsoft has its pony everywhere right now, especially in india (don't believe me? check out the last names in the 'about' box. How many of those are american?)
And then we have open-source, which again is all over the place.
Even games are made almost equally or less in the US than they used to be. MMO's are koreas pony. Ubisoft Montreal, DICE (Sweden).
Aircraft
Will skip this one, since i don't have the sufficient knowledge
Microprocessors
BZZZT! Wrong again!
Sure, intel is US-based. But the best fabs they have is Jerusalem based as far as i know. AMD/ATi is fabless and uses TSMC. Pretty much anyone who isn't intel is using TSMC or something in the likes of those, because making or mainatining a fab in the US is too expensive. Check it out - pretty much all of the components of this computer are made in Asia (CPU - Malaysia, RAM - China, LCD - china, and so on..). The only US thing about is the "Design by Apple in California" text..
Automobiles
Hahahah! Maybe from the perspective from a US consumer, since you all drive hummers and SUVs there. And is GM even still making cars? Like, NORMAL cars? Right now Daewoo is making cars with Chevy brand. How low is that? The rest of the world enjoys the comfort, safety and economy of japanese (toyota, honda) and european (renault, volksvagen, audi..) cars.
Food
If your country cannot even provide food for its own populace, its in for some deep shit. Take a look at some african nations right now for an example. This is NOT a saving grace of ANY kind.
Btw, this was not meant as a flame, but i guess it went the rant-way. Whatever, i got karma to burn, and some Americans here are overdue for their wake up.
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Being born in the US I had considered going back over after Xmas until this incident. I don't are what their excuse is, I'm not paying £500 to be treated like a criminal.
It was bad enough having to quizzed and searched every time I asked a question or looked like I didn't know the airport like the back of my hand.
Did it not cross their mind that if I were a terrorist I w
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Even on some internal flights. Some do overfly the US to get to other parts of Canada.
Good. (Score:2)
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I hope more people from outside of the U.S. finds ways to pressure the U.S. government to behave itself. I'm getting increasingly ashamed of my government. It simply doesn't serve the interests of the people. And it's not "paranoia" driving this, it is paranoia that is drummed up to gain support for this. In reality, I don't believe the people of the U.S. support what is going on any longer... hell, most people don't have any idea what's going on. But the first time that people of the U.S. travel to an
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"So I say ever other country starts finger-printing and frisking Americans just as a matter of policy."
Go ahead. I'd be fine with that. Run background checks too. Lock down all borders and protect exclusive access.
I don't fly anywhere I'm not welcome, I'm not interested in becoming an illegal immigrant, I'm not a terrorist, and I'm fine with the deterrent model for containing international flow of people.
Re:Fuck you America ... (Score:4, Interesting)
So I say ever other country starts finger-printing and frisking Americans just as a matter of policy.
See how long before the state departments starts whining about that.
This is precisely why I won't fly into a US airport. Fuck 'em, you country no longer interests me.
You obviously don't get out much. Most countries do far worse than the US. There's a lot of anti American sentiment on Slashdot. Try flying into Saudi Arabia with an Israeli passport or even more fun vice versa. If you listen to some people on Slashdot the US is worse than the Soviet Union ever was. I grew up during the Cold War and that's just plain silly. I've also traveled to many foreign countries and trust me the US isn't that bad and most of the bad was in response to foreigners attacking us. We also have one of the more open immigration and residency policies. Virtually anyone can work here, legal or not, yet oddly enough few countries welcome Americans to work there. I've known many Brits, Australians and Dutch, just examples, that constantly bemoaned how awful it was getting work permits here or how bad the country was yet oddly enough they were working here. I wouldn't be welcome in any of their countries without changing citizenship. Canada has an open immigration policy yet Americans aren't allowed to work there. I work in the film industry and oddly enough it's flooded with Canadians both actors and crew but I can't work there. As a writer I need a Canadian to share writing credit to have a film shot there and it's tough as a director even to work there when it's my script. The whole point is for all the bad things done the negative aspects of the US are ALWAYS overstated and the good points generally ignored. We help support a lot of other countries and economies and we're simply expected to with little or no acknowledgement. We get blasted for using too many resources yet we are also attacked for not buying enough from other countries, odd given our trade deficit. Also we export a large percentage of the food grown here then get blasted over biofuels and that we use too much food. What happens is cherry picking. It's childsplay to find bad laws and bad policies, every country has them. With the US it often seems that's all anyone outside the country wants to see. Most Americans don't agree with their government policies but it's a problem that exists in most countries and is hardly unique to this country. We got blamed for the Bush years but few pointed out the majority of Americans voted against him. He won by a technicality. It's ridiculous to blame each one of us for everything our government does. Just because we get stuck with a certain leader doesn't make us all rightwing conservatives like flipping some cosmic switch. Each country has had their political crosses to bear. You don't have to come to the States just hop on a plane to some other countries around the world and actually see what's out there. If it isn't the utopia you pictured then try the US and see if it's as bad as you thought. Ya gotta leave your parent's basement some time.
Re:Fuck you America ... (Score:4, Informative)
Being a writer you don't even need a work permit as long as you don't intend to do work outside of your field. http://www.skillclear.co.uk/permitfree.asp [skillclear.co.uk]
I would have said the other places are probably the same but to be honest some countries are getting tired of their people being treated like shit when going to the US so they're returning the favour and I don't blame them to be honest.
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Great circles? (Score:2, Insightful)
EU had same dilemma... (Score:2, Funny)
But France must have been in charge at the time as we surrendered without a fight.
Huron? (Score:2)
Toronto is on Lake Ontario
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Thought it was BESIDE Lake Ontario.
Doesn't this violate... (Score:5, Informative)
Now, I suppose the US could legitimately demand that any flights crossing its territory make a landing, hence subjecting passengers to inspection per Article 9(b-c), but that's only supposed to be available on a temporary basis.
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Since when has signing international treaties caused us to abide by them? We'll invent a legal loophole and continue to pretend that everything is justified by the never ending war for Freedom and Democracy.
Everyone knows that only Americans are righteous enough to defend such lofty ideals from lawless barbarians.
What about Alaska? (Score:5, Funny)
If we block them they block us and soon we'll be traveling to Alaska via Russia (which I've heard you can see via some of the houses on the coast)
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I suspect the US has no problem handing over the information to the Canadians for similar flights.
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I suspect the US has no problem handing over the information to the Canadians for similar flights.
The way to get back at the US is to require all flights over Canadian airspace by US carriers to stop at a Canadian airport and deplane all passengers and cargo for "security checks" including passing customs. A lot of flights to and from the US go over Canada right now and going round is impractical and expensive.
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Are there any flights between Europe and the US which don't pass through Canadian airspace? At least in the Westbond direction.
A lot of flights to and from the US go over Canada right now and going round is impractical and expensive.
Including many flights out of Detroit Metro. The most notable, s
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Vote On It ! (Score:4, Insightful)
Since we are not allowed to know if even one, single, lone, terrorist attack in the US has been thwarted by these information lists just what can a citizen do? Sending mail to a congressman or voting according to a position on more of this information collection is absurd as we simply are not allowed to have a clue as to whether this tactic works at all. For all I know perhaps this nonsense simply creates jobs that fat cat politicians hand out to their buddies.
Toronto (Score:2, Insightful)
Ask any Chinese person in the USA how they got to the US, and they will say thru-Toronto.
Ask any Celebrity how they managed to visit Cuba, they will say thru-Toronto.>
Watching Toronto Airports seems prudent.
I have a solution. (Score:5, Funny)
You're either with us or with the terrorists... (Score:2, Funny)
War Plan Red [wikipedia.org] is Go!!!
Invade Canada!
Trust the TSA (Score:2)
What privacy? (Score:5, Informative)
My country has a bill that puts limits on handling of my personal data. It was passed because the EU demands that. But it also demands that my bank passes info about my money transactions to USA [slashdot.org]. It would be pretty difficult to live without bank account and legally impossible to run a business without bank account. My privacy is screwed and I can't even vote to change that - short of convincing EU to challenge US.
We had stories about US demanding [slashdot.org]data [slashdot.org] about air travelers before [slashdot.org]. Well, you don't have to travel by air. You can use cash and not wire transfers. You can live without internet if you don't want ISP to log who/when you talk to. You can have your privacy - if you live back in the woods. Thanks God, the war on terrorism works so well.
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Thanks God, the war on terrorism works so well.
Unfortunately, the terrorists are indeed doing spectactularly well: our nations are perpetually living in fear, our governments appear to be running around in a blind panic trying to ensure an impossible level of security, and worst of all, the bad guys hardly have to lift a finger to achieve this because our own governments and the media are doing all the legwork for them.
I still don't understand why we use terms like "terrorist" that somehow seem to elevate what they do, instead of just calling them what
Fork it over, and it changes... nothing. (Score:5, Insightful)
Handing over information regarding a passenger's name, gender and birth-date may violate Canadian privacy laws
What's worse is that the TSA can't even get any of those three facts right in many cases.
Last Name [tsa.gov]: "Alphabetic, no numeric or special characters, except dash ( - ) and single quote ( ' ). Do not include suffixes (e.g., jr.). Truncate names longer than 35 characters to 35 characters".
First Name [tsa.gov]: "Secure Flight allows first initial only;" otherwise, same as last name. Honorifics are not to be placed in the name.
Middle Name [tsa.gov]: same as first name.
So if any of your three names doesn't perfectly fit this convention, you will be hit with a $100 Change fee [schneier.com], including if you don't have a middle name. This is particularily problematic for asian, greek, or many other nationalities whose names include special characters or when translated to english result in a name longer than 35 characters.
Gender [blogspot.com]: Once again, the TSA fails to account for any manner of diversity in the human population. Anyone who doesn't conform to the gender stereotype fixed to your official documents will be subject to additional (unwanted) attention. I wonder if they'll be offering sensitivity training for the crossdressers, transgendered, butch lesbians, and intersexed amongst us. And god help you if the Driver's Bureau screws up, or you live in a state that won't alter birth records after surgery, or one of a dozen other very real problems.
Birthdate: Did you know a lot of people who immigrate to this country don't know when they were born? In fact, in developing countries, it's quite common for people not to know their actual age. People assume a person's date of birth is a fixed thing -- how could you screw that up? And if you live in this country, you don't have to worry about this anyway. Well, remember that until the mid-90s the Social Security Administration wasn't so on about immediately registering newborns -- and did you know some people choose to have their kids at home? Some people don't get a birth certificate until they're five years old because parents just plain forget -- and for a variety of reasons, sometimes they fudge the actual date. Try getting this changed later -- it's fun.
In short, there's no real security being added here. All of it can be defeated quite easily in any event by putting a gun to the head of your wife, kid, or anything else you don't feel like losing. And as we make these security restrictions increasingly ethnocentric, the terrorists will adapt their strategies accordingly, because the payoff is so damn good! They sucked the US economy of trillions of dollars and all they had to do was crash four passenger planes. We offer the best "bang for the buck", literally and figuratively. It doesn't matter if they make it ten thousand times more difficult and expensive to pull another 9/11 job -- it's still an amazingly good deal for the terrorists.
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Ah yes, of course the whiners are out now...... (Score:5, Insightful)
Just say NO (Score:5, Insightful)
Speaking as a Canadian...I think we should tell those paranoid xenophobes to go fuck themselves.
Jean Chrétien had a lot of flaws, but at least he had the balls to tell the Americans to stop pushing us around.
If they are concerned about passenger security then they can damn well set up more of those "you're guilty until proven innocent" security-theatre checkpoints on their own soil and search people getting off the plane. Hell, they can even build special security airports at the borders to inspect people's shoes and water bottles.
(Sad to think that would probably be a better use of their funding than most of the stupid crap they've wasted their money on in the last 9 years)
Go ahead and mod me down American nationalist zealots ... I have karma to burn and I'm tired of putting up with America's bullshit.
[/rant]
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Jean Chrétien had a lot of flaws, but at least he had the balls to tell the Americans to stop pushing us around.
When he did so, he was mostly trying to make Paul Martin's job harder.
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Lost Tourism (Score:2)
Like many people, I think that the USA should be worth visiting but...
I have no wish to be treated like a criminal. Even domestic UK flights are barely tolerable and it is getting worse.
I am not being driven away from your country by the scumbag terrorists. I am being kept away by all that I hear about the security tripe.
You allegedly lost the next Olympics because of it. It can't be helping your economy. Billions spent on the TSA and other useless rubbish as well as an indeterminate amount not collect
This is becoming a real clusterf*ck (Score:3, Informative)
Unfortunately, our elected leaders don't see the insanity. They don't see that they're doing the terrorist's job more effectively than the terrorists ever imagined. They don't see how many airline and TSA employees are using this as an excuse to lie and steal. They have the right to go through your baggage - but you don't have the right to keep your personal property if they want to take it. Do they have rules and regulations to follow? Don't ask - it's none of your business, citizen. Do these people know how foolish they look? No.
I've taken every opportunity to vote for people who said they would not perpetuate this nonsense - but there doesn't seem to be any way for a simple American citizen to stop this lunacy. I know that I do NOT want to travel on any airline these days - and if I have to, I know not to take a laptop or IPod along - or anything else that the watchers may find suspicious or desirable.
What I'd really like to tell them: Hey, I'm an American citizen - who gave you the right to harass the citizens of this country? But they won't answer and it seems that our so-called representative government is more concerned with preserving and improving the status quo than doing the job they were elected to do.
Sheesh; Bush was a disaster and Obama promised to undo the extremes and provide more transparency. Yeah, right - so Obama lied to us and is following the Bush plan. As a citizen, I'd like to apologize to those in other countries for the behavior of our government. We didn't ask them to act this way and we can't seem to find a way to get them to stop.
Re:Turnabout may be a fair remedy to bad policy... (Score:5, Interesting)
I have a heck of a lot more faith in Canadian airport security than in American airport security! There are some little differences, e.g., we aren't required to take such ridiculous steps as taking our shoes off. But the one biggest difference: our security personnel are calm, collected, and doing their job well.
Case in point: I recently traveled through Philadelphia. Airport security there was a gong show. All of the TSA personnel were in what looked like panic mode -- running around, not standing in one place for more than two seconds, trying to direct a multitude of people and their baggage at once. Contrast this with YVR, YEG, YYC, YYZ, or any of the other Canadian airports I've been through (and for comparison, YYZ is much busier than PHL). All of the personnel at security screenings are standing in one place, directing people in an orderly fashion. Everyone clearly has a single, specific job to do, and they are giving their full attention to doing it.
You can invent all the crazy policies you want about people not standing up for the last hour of a flight, etc. But, one necessary component of security screenings is having well-organized screening areas. When such simple things as that are neglected (for whatever reason), you're doing everything wrong. So I'd think twice before assuming Canadian airport security has much to learn at all from US airport security.
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You got to see our concept of security theater called "Moron Madness". Do you think that is REAL security? No, it's an art project funded by the American taxpayer through the National Institute for the Arts. We hope you enjoy the show.
You've got to admit the butt bomber is PRICELESS fun!
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"Whites" that until early last year had held the highest office in the country since its creation
So how's he doing? Other than the fantastic jobs creation [usatoday.com] work he's diligently doing [dailymail.co.uk] I mean.
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I'm usually 100% with privacy advocates, but I have to say that I don't think being able to fly over a foreign country without having to give them your name and birth date is an essential liberty. Or even a reasonable expectation. Did I miss something?
If you believe that, then surely you must believe that requiring full immigration processing for flyovers is just as reasonable.
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Just see if we offer you statehood with an attitude like that!
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Right....
The last time the US and Canada fought, how did that end again? Ah yes, your White House was lit on fire.
It would take a little more than your National Guard to take some Canadians down. Shooting some of the ICBMs you have pointed at them would work however.
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And we got a suddenly very, very straight northern border.
Then again that was 200 or so years ago. Things have a tendency to change in time spans that long, so perhaps it's not entirely relevant.
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As I recall, that ended with Andy Jackson kicking the crap out of the Royal Army (and not just any odds-n-sods of the Royal Army - those lads were brought over here after kicking the crap out of Napolean in Spain) just outside N'Awlins.
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