Patent Issued For Podcasting 150
pickens writes "The EFF is reaching out for help after a company called Volomedia got the Patent Office to grant them exclusive rights to 'a method for providing episodic media' that could threaten the community of podcasters and millions of podcast listeners. 'It's a ridiculously broad patent, covering something that many folks have been doing for many years,' writes Rebecca Jeschke. 'Worse, it could create a whole new layer of ongoing costs for podcasters and their listeners.' To bust this patent, EFF is looking for additional 'prior art' — evidence that the podcasting methods described in the patent were already in use (PDF) before November 19, 2003. 'In particular, we're looking for written descriptions of methods that allow a user to download pre-programmed episodic media like audio files or video files from a remote publisher, with the download occurring after the user subscribes to the episodes, and with the user continuing to automatically receive new episodes.'"
Not sure (Score:2)
Didn't Leo of TechTV do something like this using RealAudio back in the day?
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Are you sure you want this patent handed over to RealAudio?
Re: (Score:2)
Prior Art doesn't give someone a patent or the right to patent. If RealAudio was doing this and publicly documented their process, nobody can patent their process, not even them.
Re: (Score:2)
I don't think RealAudio liked what he was saying to do. This was before Podcasts. He basically told some of his listeners that they could "copy" his streaming audio with a software tool so they could listen later on an MP3 player. This might have been around 2001, but my memory is crap.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Not sure (Score:5, Funny)
Hello. I have noticed you have made a mention of RealAudio in some way, shape, or form. As a member of teh intarnets, I am required to make at least one "Buffering" joke at the expense of RealMedia, no matter how much this situation has changed in the past ten to fifteen years.
To provide you with some backstory as to this joke, I will mention that I was, in fact, a child of the 80s and 90s. Like most such people, my mind is permanently stuck in that time period, because, as I am certain you are aware, everything was much much better back then. For instance, video games were harder, and thus better, in the 8-bit and 16-bit eras, and it is my firm belief that the sole purpose of homebrew with modern consoles is to provide us with another vector of emulators so we can play Chrono Trigger for the eight thousandth time (as we all know, the eight thousandth time is the best), and that there is absolutely no reason why anyone should ever stop playing the Mega Man series non-stop. Also, cartoons were far better in the 90s, especially Transformers (heralded by our Lord and Savior, Optimus Prime, hallowed be his name), and said cartoons were in no possible way cynically-designed marketing ploys to sell cheap plastic toys, which were also awesome and I have them all and refuse to give them up.
As you can see, I enjoy my pathetic attempts to live in the past, as, following my cultural entrenchment there, that is all I have*. Therefore, I refuse to acknowledge any sort of external factors in RealMedia's historic buffering issues. Issues such as, but not limited to, the lack of proliferation of broadband internet access like we have today. Ergo, despite there not being any more problems with RealMedia than with other streaming media formats (in fact, some may say it is now far more reliable than many), it is so buried in my psyche and so desperately held on to as a reminder of a time long past when I was actually cool and popular that I must continue to make said jokes until such time as I die a bitter, broken man, missing out on life itself.
So, without further ado, I will state for the record that Leo may have done this back in the day, but after buffering, we only found out about it now.
Thank you, and good day to you.
*: As an amusingly ironic side note, I will delight in telling people older than I am to "get with the times" in any of a wide variety of ways.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
What?
Re:Not sure (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Screw that, the guys from 2800 have been doing this for far longer than leo has even had the idea that computers were neat.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
There is no such thing as a podcast. It's an mp3 file, that's all. It could be a wav or rm or any other format, but some dick thought they were clever by giving an established fact a new name, and as usual it's apple centric.
Oh yes! I feel your pain ol' lonely PC user controlling a mere 95% of the market.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
How is "podcasting" any different than "shoutcasting"? I was doing shoutcasts back in the last century!
Podcasting is some retarded name for somebody posting normal old files online for downloading, and giving an RSS feed for software and mp3 players to play nice with the content.
Shoutcasting is an ongoing stream.. just plainly internet radio that continuously streams.
The reason I hate the distinction is that people make up fancy trendy names for what's little more than downloading files with a nice organization. Stop tying to patent how the internet works!
Re: (Score:2)
Blame the washed up MTV vJ that claims he invented it.
Not exactly related to the patent (Score:3, Informative)
Anyway, I found a link to it on Wikipedia but I'm sure there are more links around.
It was called Geeks in Space [wikipedia.org], or something like that, and the site's admins that used to make the show was called flashdot, dashdot, slashdort or something like that.
Comment removed (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
What? You got a problem with us geezers? Get off of my lawn, y'darned kid!
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, I never will understand these youngsters...
Re: (Score:2)
Geezer?
You look like a newborn baby to me kid.
Now where did you damn kids hide my wheelchair?
Re: (Score:2)
I don't think I waited that long to register but I know it had been a few years at least. I may have also had another account that I have since forgotten, not sure.
Re: (Score:2)
I had an account that I have now forgot. _Ghost. The worst part is that the email address was the same user name and I forgot the password to it... so couldn't just get a password change.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Similarly, Red vs. Blue has been around since early 2003. They didn't call 'em podcasts, but same deal.
Re: (Score:2)
I don't think they fit this part:
and with the user continuing to automatically receive new episodes.
In order to get a patent repealed, I believe the prior art needs to cover the entire thing. I don't recall automatically receiving episodes back when I was a subscriber (I think it was actually called "sponsor", but whatever). I had to go to the website every release day and check if a new episode was available.
I could be misunderstanding, though, and by automatically they just mean the content is available automatically to subscribers, not that you would automatically recei
Re: (Score:2)
I could be misunderstanding, though, and by automatically they just mean the content is available automatically to subscribers, not that you would automatically receive it.
Nope, you were right the first time: automatically downloading updated episodic media associated with the channel dedicated to the episodic media to a computing device associated with the user in accordance with the subscription request upon availability of the updated episodic media, the automatic download occurring without further user interaction...
Re: (Score:2)
Subscription request? This isn't push. That's a cron job running locally pulling down weekly archives. That's gentoo doing "emerge --sync" daily in a cron job without further user interaction.
1. There is no subscription. Client side software periodically retrieves new content. It's not like a mailing list subscription that pushes out digests and content and bounces mail if your server isn't up. This is polling.
2. Episodic media is a worthless term. CD tracks are episodic.
3. Upon availability? Still
Re: (Score:2)
or email it to you. I was definitely 'automatically' receiving media content in 92, well, pulling content via retrieving emails.
Re: (Score:2, Redundant)
I did one back in 1999 when I had the Springfield Fragfest, a Quake site. I think I still have the MP3s of my daughter doing Quake Christmas carols I wrote for the Christmas show that year, "I saw Mommie Fragging Santa Claus" and "Rudolph the Four Legged Stroggie".
I did shoutcasts about every other week, with rock and roll music blatantly infringing RIAA copyrights that was put in the context so that the meanings were changed, making them about Quake. I also infringed copyright with mashups of various stuff
Re: (Score:2)
I did something like that in 2002 for an economics project in high school. Only had three "episodes" and you could download them as mp3s.
People had to download them? Then you're not prior art. Check the claim. This is more like RSS.
Re: (Score:2)
Because clearly nobody has ever before thought of using RSS to indicate available updates to content?!?
Re: (Score:2)
Because clearly nobody has ever before thought of using RSS to indicate available updates to content?!?
WTF are you talking about? Please try to follow the thread of the discussion: Grandparent: "I made podcasts, therefore I'm prior art."
Me: "No, people had to download yours manually. This is automatic. It's more like RSS."
You: "Nobody thought of RSS before?!?! WHARRGARBL!!"
Re: (Score:2)
Merely using something for the intended purpose is hardly a novelty! Nor is applying it to something that it obviously applies to.
Certainly taking a general purpose tool and pairing it down to one function (that the original is also capable of) is not novelty.
In other words, he made podcasts. Merely applying RSS (by any name) to that is hardly worthy of a patent.
If you're going to say something like "Please try to follow the thread of the discussion" don't be suprized to get a response like "please send me
Re: (Score:2)
Merely using something for the intended purpose is hardly a novelty! Nor is applying it to something that it obviously applies to.
Certainly taking a general purpose tool and pairing it down to one function (that the original is also capable of) is not novelty.
In other words, he made podcasts. Merely applying RSS (by any name) to that is hardly worthy of a patent.
If you're going to say something like "Please try to follow the thread of the discussion" don't be suprized to get a response like "please send me a complete map of your brain and I''ll endevor to tell you which neurons to fire when for you to understand my reply".
I didn't say it was worthy of a patent so your "it's hardly worthy of a patent because RSS was known!" is unwarranted. In fact, I was the one who brought up RSS. Specifically, what I was saying is that the grandparent's podcasts were not prior art, but that other things - like RSS - could be. Now do you understand?
en.swpat.org/wiki/VoloMedia's_podcasting_patent (Score:5, Informative)
"Method" patents (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Would the PTO (or the CFFC) accept a patent on the same business method, except that users send requests on postcards, the audio will be burned to CDs and mailed by post, and the subscription lists will be maintained in paper folders?
If it was novel and nonobvious then yes, they would. You seem to be confusing subject matter with obviousness. You say that business methods should not be patentable, but then complain about the obviousness of a patent on a software method. Business method patents != software patents. Business method patents are looking like they are going to hammered by the Supreme Court, but I don't expect them to kill software patents. And patentable subject matter != obviousness. The question of patentable subject
Re: (Score:2)
Anyone that uses a cron job (the subscription) to automatically pull down newer updates (episodes) of some media without further user interaction has prior art on this.
cron.daily: emerge --sync, downloading security updates
RSS feeds, IMAP "subscriptions", etc
Eudora clients and IMAP mail servers have been "podcasting" emails for a LONG time.
Red vs Blue (Score:2, Interesting)
Episodic content............. Check
Web Posted................... Check
Already Up in 1993.......... Check
Just my 1 cent of useless info...
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Already Up in 1993.......... Check
Red vs. Blue, the Machinima based on Halo, was up in 1993? Really? Quite a feat since Halo wasn't released for another 10 years or so. Or are you referring to some earlier Red vs. Blue that was overshadowed?
Re: (Score:2)
US elections, perhaps?
What's actually been patented? (Score:2, Informative)
This sounds more like a patent on RSS feeds- online episodic media goes way back (Big media had webisodes in 2000, with amateur stuff going back much further) but the patent seems to refer to subscriptions and automatic downloading.
Re: (Score:2)
It doesn't even sound like the feeds themselves would be under threat. What this appears to apply to would be RSS readers and podcatchers that do the automatic downloading.
Wikipedia (Score:5, Informative)
Wikipedia has a whole section of prior art in their history section of the podcasting article here [wikipedia.org]
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
specifically:
Timeline
* September 2000 - The first system that enabled the selection, automatic downloading and storage of serial episodic audio content on PCs and portable devices was launched by September 2000 [2] from another early MP3 player manufacturer, i2Go. To supply content for its portable mp3 players, i2Go, makers of the eGo player, introduced a digital audio news and entertainment service called MyAudio2Go.com that enabled users to download episodic news, sports, ente
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
From the article:
September 2000 - The first system that enabled the selection, automatic downloading and storage of serial episodic audio content on PCs and portable devices was launched by September 2000 [2] from another early MP3 player manufacturer, i2Go. To supply content for its portable mp3 players, i2Go, makers of the eGo player, introduced a digital audio news and entertainment service called MyAudio2Go.com that enabled users to download episodic news, sports, entertainment, weather, and music in audio format for listening on a PC, the eGo portable audio player, or other MP3 players. The i2GoMediaManager and the eGo file transfer application could be programmed to automatically download the latest episodic content available from user selected content types to a PC or portable device as desired. The service lasted over a year, but succumbed when the i2Go company ran out of capital during the dotcom crash and folded.
That seems pretty relevant to this case.
Re: (Score:2)
The evidence of prior art is everywhere, but that doesn't stop the patent office handing them out. Has the patent office ever rejected anything?
Mortality.net show Feb 2002 (Score:2, Interesting)
Mortality.net Radio was posting episodes back in February 2002. The kicker is how it applies to the patent. It satisfies Claim 1A, but none of the others like subscription, auto-downloading, or showing if there is space remaining for the download (except how that is already covered in operating systems and/or web browsers).
Re: (Score:2)
Wouldn't that mean that because podcasts do not check for space for the download, that they would not be affected? On the other hand, the myriad of podcatcher applications out there might be under threat.
Pre-programmed episodic media (Score:5, Insightful)
methods that allow a user to download pre-programmed episodic media like audio files or video files from a remote publisher, with the download occurring after the user subscribes to the episodes, and with the user continuing to automatically receive new episodes
Well, starting in 1977 users who wanted to watch a pre-programmed episodic audio/video stream called "Inside the NFL" could subscribe to the cable TV HBO/Showtime channel, and after subscribing would continue to automatically receive new episodes. Does that count?
Re: (Score:2)
If that doesn't knock this stupid patent on the head, nothing will. Posting to grant karma bonus, since I have no mod points.
Re: (Score:2)
+= "On The Internet".
Re: (Score:2)
Heinlein's View (Score:4, Interesting)
From The Door Into Summer by Robert A. Heinlein (1956):
There wasn't anything really new in it; it was just the way that I put it together. The "spark of genius" required by our laws lay in getting a good patent lawyer.
Claim 1, not that anyone will read it (Score:4, Informative)
1. A method for providing episodic media, the method comprising:
- providing a user with access to a channel dedicated to episodic media, wherein the episodic media provided over the channel is pre-defined into one or more episodes by a remote publisher of the episodic media;
- receiving a subscription request to the channel dedicated to the episodic media from the user;
- automatically downloading updated episodic media associated with the channel dedicated to the episodic media to a computing device associated with the user in accordance with the subscription request upon availability of the updated episodic media, the automatic download occurring without further user interaction; and
- providing the user with: an indication of a maximum available channel depth, the channel depth indicating a size of episodic media yet to be downloaded from the channel and size of episodic media already downloaded from the channel, the channel depth being specified in playtime or storage resources, and the ability to modify the channel depth by deleting selected episodic media content, thereby overriding the previously configured channel depth.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
TiVo meets all those conditions.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
It seems to me that this is describing a subset of push technology [wikipedia.org], such as PointCast back in the day, and even those "channels [wikipedia.org]" you used to be able to subscribe to in Windows 95. PointCast predates this patent app by a number of years.
Re: (Score:2)
It's not push though. No one gets pushed podcasts do they? It looks like it, but really the clients poll.
Re: (Score:2)
1. A method for providing episodic media, the method comprising:
Thank-you for fulfilling and important step in the rigidly scripted /. patent-story method patent:
1) Editors post patent-related story with false headline and misleading summary
2) Commentors who know nothing about patent law and who have not read the claims respond with outrage
3) Someone posts the actual claims, thereby demonstrating the headline is false and the summary misleading.
4) Outrage continues unabated, although sometimes its target sh
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
IMAP.
1. Email INBOX is a channel where-in publishers of emails can provide episodic media
2. IMAP clients "subscribe" to a channel (server + folder)
3. IMAP clients automatically download updated episodic media from the channel without further interaction by the user
4. IMAP can be configured to give stats about "channel metadata" and get rid of old media (auto archive of emails over X days old, ect)
Re: (Score:2)
TV (Score:2)
You mean like cable television?
Re: (Score:2)
You mean like cable television?
More specifically, Tivo...
Art Bell (Score:2)
Art Bell 1996 Podcasts (Score:2)
Found some stuff from 1996. Art Bell from AM radio fame use to put his shows and parts of his shows up on the internet where you could download or stream them.
I think at some point you had to pay for some of the "podcasts". Though I never did.
But if this wasn't podcasting I don't know what is.
Tired of this crap... (Score:2)
Anyone else tired of this patent crap?
Patent on "Being tired of this patent crap" (Score:2)
Cease and desist your complaining, I have the patent on "Being tired of this patent crap".
I have the application form right here, and the stamped envelope to send it off.. hmm, I seem to have forgotten to mail it. My apologies, carry on with your rant about being "tired of this patent crap".
Re:Patent on "Being tired of this patent ..." (Score:3, Funny)
However, I have created a new way to be tired of patents. By replacing degradable biological byproducts with miscellaneous debris from the auto industry, I have patented being tired of Patent Junk. And I get a car analogy too!
Re: (Score:2)
Year 2000 (Score:2)
http://www.mp3newswire.net/stories/2000/ego.html [mp3newswire.net]
* Test Drive of The i2Go eGo with IBM MicroDrive.
by Richard Menta 9/01/00
*snip*
More Options
*snip*
Want more options? I2Go MP3Agent, the software that comes with the player, has text-to-speech capabilities designed to translate the morning email into MP3 files to listen to on the commute in. This culd be a lifesaver to busy dot-com employees who get backlogged with a hundred messages.
MyAudio2Go.com
One of the best options available from the folks at i2Go is a web
FidoNet (Score:2)
"Podcasts" have existed for many decades... (Score:2, Insightful)
Magazine Subscription (Score:2)
Newsgroups? (Score:2)
Does this patent cover newsgroups? I think that would be prior art.
Shoutcast (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I distinctly remembered several TV-via-shoutcast stations as well as some radio ones. I listened to the HHG2TG radio play via one of those. If that isn't episodic, I don't know what is.
So:
-Released before 2003
-Allowed episodic media to be downloaded automatically and in order
-Subscriptions often involved whitelisting your IP with the main server for infinite streaming at a small cost.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Streaming is irrelevant. The patent is about downloading and managing subscriptions to audio files. It covers fetching new files when they're updated and making room on local storage by deleting older files.
Come to think of it, the best prior art for this is Usenet. Audio newsgroups contained audio files that were subscribed to by the user and news server software would make room for new files by deleting the old.
Yep, I think that'd about do it.
Also, the RSS standards history [userland.com] can probably point to some earl
Re: (Score:2)
If you read my comment again, I mention the fact that WinAmp is actively downloading the file as you're listening to it. Some plugins let you keep the file afterwards.
Not saying the Usenet idea isn't also applicable, however.
Re: (Score:2)
I made my post [slashdot.org] before I saw yours. Yeah, Usenet is pretty much prior art.
Read my post which tries to directly address each claim. Namely, you need an 'episodic content' aspect, which, luckily, illegal television newsgroups provide.
Re: (Score:2)
Don't get caught up on audio. It doesn't cover just audio files. They used the blanket term media (which is a little weird), but they mean any medium: audio, video, or other files. So usenet, list servers, pop, imap, etc all fit that bill.
Of course, the patent must be read... (Score:2)
There's prior art for podcast-like distribution of audio shows dating back to 1993. [wikipedia.org] However, the patent has to be read, and each claim compared to previous efforts. Simply demonstrating that people used the Internet for audio show distribution prior to 2003 does nothing.
Please help me understand (Score:3, Interesting)
I would like someone who is informed about the patent process to clarify for me, and by extension the /. community, an aspect of the patent process that I do not understand and seems to be a point of confusion among readers here:
If a patent is (wrongly) awarded for a technology that has been covered by prior art, even if the prior art has not previously been patented, what is the legal status of the patent and the prior art? Can the patent be a threat to prior art (could previously existing podcasting/RSS technology be threatened by legal challenges)? Would a challenge by the patent holder risk invalidating the patent when the defendant produced evidence of prior art? In the event of a legal battle where the patent was found to be invalid due to prior art, who would be responsible for legal costs?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I am not a laywer (INAL)
A patent has to be novel and new at the time it is submitted.
The inventor "needs" to ensure that the invention is not in use currently or in the past
Then it is written up and sent to the patent office. They can at that point start marking items using the invention Pat Pending (might not be required any more)
The patent office looks for prior art as well but only gets money if they approve it. So they are motiveated to do so.
Once approved the patent holder can sue anyone using the inv
PTO gets paid (Score:2)
the USPTO doesn't just get paid if the patent is approved, they are paid for nearly every document that is filed with the office. For example:
an extension of time after a rejection, office gets paid
Applicant files an information disclosure statement, office gets paid
notice of appeal, office gets paid
request for continuation, office gets paid
and so on and so forth
Re: (Score:2)
If a patent is (wrongly) awarded for a technology that has been covered by prior art, even if the prior art has not previously been patented, what is the legal status of the patent and the prior art?
You can patent something that somebody has implemented, but not published. When the patent is granted, you can sue the originating implementer and compel them to (a) stop doing business based on the claims in your patent, or (b) license your patent.
If the original implementer PUBLISHED the inventor before you filed for your patent, then that demonstrates prior art and it would cause a real legal battle if you manner to get a patent for it.
IANAL, but I did attend an information session presented by my c
Windows update? (Score:2)
perhaps this counts. if the fixed periodic nature is a problem, just be a little lazy when putting things on the servers. ;-)
Art Bell - Coast to Coast (Score:2)
I have an idea. (Score:2)
How about usenet?
It even uses the term 'subscription' and even has episodic content, in the form of actual TV episodes. All we have to demonstrate that there were 'channels' dedicatied to specific content...like alt.binaries.multimedia.firefly, for an example of a 2002 group.
Specific, episodic content that you subscribe to and your client (For example, NewsBin) can download automatically.
Yes, that behavior would be illegal, but that doesn't stop it from being prior art.
That alone seems to fit claim 1, 2
push! (Score:2)
The whole idea of "push" media spawned back around 1995 with Pointcast, Marimba, BackWeb and others. It was The Next Big Thing(TM) and it was going to change the way we used the internet. Of course at the time most people were still using 28.8K dialup at home and didn't want to wait for an hour while all your new content downloaded as soon as you connected.
Most of this was much more general than just pushing podcasts, but the whole idea of subscribing to a "channel" that updates you and automatically dow
Napster on dial-up (Score:2, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
I believe the GNAA does
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, but they did it on the internet. That, as you know, makes it entirely novel and fully patentable!
Re: (Score:2)
Are you kidding me? Schedule a 90 minute tape to start recording the Stern show at 6AM. I leave for school at 8 so I pop in another tape and start recording, and I schedule my other radio to catch the end of the show from 9:30 til it runs out. A lot of calories burned for what now is a 5 minute torrent download.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)