"Smart" Parking Meters Considered Dumb 863
theodp writes "The jury's still out on whether Chicago taxpayers were taken to the cleaners by a rushed 75-year lease of the city's metered parking to a Morgan Stanley consortium. But most would probably agree that the new shared Pay Boxes that replaced the city's old parking meters don't exactly live up to their 'Smart' billing. Here's what the redesigned 'user-friendly' parking solution looks like: 1. Park your car. 2. Walk up to 1/2 block to a Pay Box. 3. Wait in line to use it. 4. Use coins or credit cards to purchase parking time — up to $84 for 24-hours (add $50 if you run out of time). 5. Wait for a paper receipt to be printed. 6. Walk up to 1/2 block back to your car. 7. Place the receipt on your dashboard. 8. Head off to your destination, perhaps passing the Pay Box a second time. So before other cities suffer the same fate as Chicago, Portland, and others, is there a 'smarter' way? Some suggest the ParkMagic In-Car Meter, but no new orders are being taken in Chicago. Any other ideas?"
already (Score:5, Interesting)
Yay, first post!
They have those things in Sacramento California also, they suck! I hate them! They're the worst!
I heard in some cities though that they place sensors under the parking spots that reset the meter whenever somebody removes their car, as another way of making sure nobody gets any free time.
Re:already (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:already (Score:5, Insightful)
Probably because the real reader was pried out and replaced with a card skimmer :)
It's supposed to be difficult (Score:3, Interesting)
and that is not a bad thing. Study after study has shown that by charging for parking you build in some the economic externalities into the cost of driving. think of it as a way to discourage congestion. it gives more people the opportunity to park downtown if people are discouraged from lingering. Sure you could charge more for gas or have fees to enter the city, or any number of things but this is easy to implement and has fewer side effects (as raising gas would). By making it difficult you pay with
Re:It's supposed to be difficult (Score:4, Interesting)
People too poor for a ramp (read: college students me) could instead trade time for a spot. Sure, you might have to circle for 10 minutes and park further away but that meter might only cost you 25c for 15 minutes.
I understand that more expensive parking puts the cost of driving more clearly on the driver but I don't like it. Ramps are already quite expensive and meters are hard to find so I like being able to spend my time instead of money (it still puts the cost on me...just in a way that I can handle). Also, a lot of the heaviest drivers don't use meters--they have monthly parking passes for work at a steep discount compared to hourly parking.
I get that increasing the perceived cost driving will cut down on unessential car use but sometimes it is simply necessary. Necessary car use is what things like uhaul and zipcar (and igo car--the chicago only zipcar equivalent that I use sometimes) are for...whenever I am parking somewhere, you can rest assured that I *need* to be doing that driving because I am already paying out the ass for mileage on a uhaul or on the clock for my igo car...
Re:It's supposed to be difficult (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't understand the modern viewpoint that cars are evil, and their usage should be discouraged. They are simply an update of the classic horse-and-cart that humans have used for 10,000 years, and the reason humans used these carts was because they were great for carrying lots of stuff.
Don't believe me? Well I just bought almost a month's worth of groceries. Try carrying 20 bags onto the local subway or bus or walk home. I think I'll keep my horseless cart. Thanks.
As to the point of the article - This is just more of the same politician stupidity that gave us hackable, error-prone computer voting (and eventually led to the return of paper ballots). Just because something is "new" doesn't mean it's better than the old system. The old mechanical meters invented in the 1920s may not be sexy, but they get the job done, and as this article demonstrates the new meters are not any better.
An upgrade to new tech is only worthwhile if it's an actual UPgrade, rather than a downgrade.
Re:It's supposed to be difficult (Score:4, Informative)
Most people here seems to regard parking meters as normal and acceptable devices. Fact is that the SOIL is public. That means that the SOIL is YOURS. Now would you like to be charged for living into your house? I doubt it. So why can you accept that someone is renting your land? Here now you are debating which form of stealing is better for you. Like debating whatever is better to be eaten by a lion or a tiger.
*LONDON CASE* - Just in case my points need proof. London is the best example that the government is not able to get public transport done in a decent way. Those who had the pleasure to visit London had the pleasure to witness the outcome of this resignation policy, where citizen don't question for a long time the actions of their governors.
Tube: In london the tube is the most expensive [guardian.co.uk] public transport [luxist.com] of the world. To eradicate privacy concerns you are told that you've got no privacy: the tube is covered with cameras. They are there just to easen your feelings of unsecurity and keeping souvenir videos of dead kamikaze bombers for later inspection.
Congestion Charge: You can't use your car if you don't pay. Basically 16$ [drivers.com] flat rate to get into the city. Cameras with number plate recognition software will note every car entering the charging zone. At the end of the day number plates will be cross referenced against a database of payments made -and don't forget to fuck privacy.
Parking: Public parking in central london is practically non existant. Where it is available the rates are so high that made possible for a private parking industry [gosimply.com] to florish (usually 36$ per day, 3,60$ per hour). With the advent of decriminalised parking the practice is becoming much more widespread and as evidenced by the TV docu-soap 'Clampers', can be very arbitary: "clampers using threatening behaviour". Insane measures [drivers.com] to clamp even bikes: Inside the Greater London area all footway parking is prohibited unless it is specifically exempted and signs indicate that you may park partially or wholly on the footway. -
Conclusions: In london there is no other options but to be raped insane charges by local authorities. You take a bike, you can't park and risk clamps - You take a car you pay for using (congestion charge) and parking (if and when you find a spot) - You take the tube you are going to pay the most expensive transport system of the world AND you are still uncertain if you can reach your destination in time or whatever [tfl.gov.uk] (It's like lotto, if you're lucky you get in time, if youre not lucky you're screwed since anything can happen, from detours to surface lines, delays or anything else - Also take for granted that when it happens you will find yourself dumped in parts of the city you never knew they existed before).
Re:It's supposed to be difficult (Score:5, Interesting)
Fact is that the SOIL is public. That means that the SOIL is YOURS. Now would you like to be charged for living into your house? I doubt it.
Ever heard of property/real estate tax?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Fact is that the SOIL is public. That means that the SOIL is YOURS. Now would you like to be charged for living into your house? I doubt it.
Ever heard of property/real estate tax?
Every year I do. Technically, you never truly 'own' property. You do own the rights to the property, but it's never "yours" as in say "I paid for some clothes and they are mine forever to do with what I wish." So to keep the rights, you have to pay a tax to the real property owner, the Government. Don't think so, skip out on your property taxes enough and the Government will take it. And don't forget about Eminent domain. (aka compulsory purchase in the UK).
Re:It's supposed to be difficult (Score:4, Informative)
>>>Technically, you never truly 'own' property.
Property tax was invented by the Progressives, who would probably call socialists in today's terminology. There was a problem where rich people were buying land, saving it, and then selling it for profit. That drove-up land prices and made it difficult for poor or middle income citizens to buy land. The progressives/socialists came-up with the idea of property tax.
Basically the property tax is supposed to offset any profit, and thereby discourage speculation. As with most good ideas, it was perverted and now it's become a way to turn citizens into the modern-day equivalent of serfs. You rent the land rather than own it.
The worst type of property tax is in Virginia where you pay a tax on your car. Why? A car's not property - it's an appliance; it depreciates rapidly. There's no valid reason to charge an annual tax/tribute on a depreciating hunk of metal, anymore than you'd pay property tax on a refrigerator or a stove or a television.
Greedy politicians.
Re:It's supposed to be difficult (Score:5, Informative)
That's not true about biking - the biggest worry about having a bike in London is that it will get stolen / vandalised when you lock it up. It doesn't stop people though, there's a thriving bicycle scene here, and I call bullshit on the idea of bikes being clamped (the clamps wouldn't fit for a start).
The tube is a pain in the arse - but that's mainly because when it was built they didn't think it necessary to put in 4 tunnels (like in NY), so they aren't able to maintain it properly (in NY they routinely shut down 2 tunnels to fix them, without having to shut down the whole line - in London they barely manage to keep the lines working in the 6 hours of down-time every night).
Then there's the overland rail network, and the buses - they have their problems too but they do give you options (I take the bus into work, and my journey is consistently between 20 and 30 minutes, and I always get a seat).
Anyone who drives in central London is crazy and / or masochistic, but what's new? It's been that way for ever, that's why I don't bother having a car. When I really need one I use a streetcar ( http://www.streetcar.co.uk/ [streetcar.co.uk] ), a service that pays the congestion charge anyway (and note that it's only the centre of the city that has the charge, and only during office hours).
Then there's the DLR in East London, or the south London tram service - both examples of well-run, clean and effective public transport whose only downside is that they only service parts of the city.
In regards to the article - if you're looking for a 'smart' meter, how about using your mobile phone: http://www.bromley.gov.uk/transportandstreets/parking/park_phone_and_go.htm [bromley.gov.uk]
Finally: "where citizen don't question for a long time the actions of their governors." - O RLY?
Re:It's supposed to be difficult (Score:4, Insightful)
There are plenty of transport options of which you missed buses, local train services, crossrail, private coach operators, mopeds, motorcycles, electric/hybrid vehicles, taxis. Yes the tube is fairly expensive but public transport in London is still pretty good considering the load it works under.
As for cars, screw cars. The congestion charge was introduced in because cars ground London to a standstill. For 95% of commuters there is no reason at all to drive in anyway since central London (where charging occurs) is very well supplied with tube and bus routes. If you absolutely must drive and don't want to pay the charge, you have plenty of other choices, including driving hybrids and electric vehicles which incur no charge.
Does that mean London's transport system is perfect? Far from it but it works and works quite well aside from when the unions decide to go on strike.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The ones they installed in Portland even have a spiffy automated cart that empties them. The meter maids pull up in their special golf carts, and the machine does the rest. It's considerably cheaper for the
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
No they should put the meters directly next to the parking space, just like the old mechanical meters.
And if that's considered "too costly" then maybe these new meters should not be installed - stick with the old tried-and-true method.
Re: (Score:3)
You can buy groceries instore or online and then get them delivered for free - both customers and supermarket benefit from the economies of scale achieved by this, as does transport infrastructure.
People individually lugging shopping back is not a sensible model.
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Do you ever eat anything fresh? I'm surprised you don't get scurvy or something.
Re:It's supposed to be difficult (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
>>>And even if you do, I still get more than that alone. I drive a scooter, and get an easy 100MPG with a passenger.
Which is completely and totally worthless for taking me to my distant job, or for carrying a month's worth of groceries, or protecting my fragile body from potential harm. At least my 2001 Honda Insight can do all three tasks AND get the 80 MPG at the same time.
I'm going to speak bluntly -
've spoken to folks like yourself before - those who are anticar and antisprawl. What you Green
Re:It's supposed to be difficult (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd rather do daily groceries by bike.
Do you have children? Do you live with a partner? Does s/he work? My wife and I each work and get home from work at around 5:30. We have dinner with our daughter around 6 or 6:30, then bath time, story time and bed time with one parent, while the other parent cleans up from dinner. Then it's an hour or so of 'us' time, before we head to bed. Where exactly in our schedule is this mythical time to do 'daily groceries by bike' in the dark pouring rain in February?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I wouldn't consider that to be free time, since somebody had to pay for it before you could benefit from it. It's not your problem if the guy before you overpaid, and there's no reason why you shouldn't benefit from it if you can. IMO, "Free" time would be putting quarter-sized sheet metal discs into a meter. (old machines would probably take it, not that I've tried or anything)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
To be fair, the way TFS describes it is definitely not how it works in Montreal or any of the cities in Europe where I've used them.... The central reader has some kind of wifi/rfid in it, and they're all networked. You can
Re:already (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:already (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not 'free time' The meter is still counting down, and just because someone else paid doesn't make it 'free time', except to you. The city is still getting paid for the time.
Now, if the city wants a way to be able to get paid for 12 hours of parking in an 8 hour stretch, ok, then the sensors can make you pay every time you enter the space. So they make the minimum time say 60 minutes in front of the dry cleaners and shops, and people come and go every 15-20 minutes, so the meter gets the hour minimum 2-3-4 times an hour. Nice.
But I don't live in Chicago, and never have, so I don't expect my city government to deliberately screw me at every opportunity.
We are learning a lot more about Chicago-style politics than I ever wanted to...
Re:already (Score:5, Interesting)
Since our meters are zone-based, (I'm in Chicago, being screwed by an unbelievably corrupt government), you can't really drive off with the tag and expect to be able to use it elsewhere. This means that the city has a series of rate zones that determine what the hourly rate is. Besides, you'd be paying the city^H^H^H^H^H LAZ parking for the time that you're driving. My new approach is to walk back to the ticket-dispensing machine and use the motorcycle stickers (or the sticky back of some tickets) to leave it on the machine so it can be used by someone else. Unfortunately, this only works if they are only going to be there a short enough time to not need any more than your original ticket.
That said, my wife and I were talking about how much we prefer these machines to what we had before, which was six dollars of quarters for an hour of parking. We each had quart-sized plastic bags in our cars that we regularly filled with quarters, and the meters were constantly failing from being too full. In order to fight a ticket later, you needed to call in and put a complaint on record. That was a major headache.
Regular meters were fine until our city screwed us out of parking revenue for 75 years in a no-bid festival of abject corruption. Why Chicagoans haven't burned City Hall to the ground is beyond me.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
If chicago hadn't sold off their parking meters, maybe the future could have been meters that are also payable by Chicago Cards (rfid based transit cards that maintain a balance and track active transfers and stuff). I can already get a card (via http://www.igocars.org/ [igocars.org]) that lets me both rent a car by the hour and take the bus/train--why not make the same card able to pay for parking and set it up in such a way that I can "swipe out" remaining time and use it on another meter.
Su
There must be a better way (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:There must be a better way (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry, but everyone doesn't carry quarters. I, for instance, am one of those crazy people who sometimes doesn't carry any cash at all, let alone a dozen quarters rattling around in my pocket! Weird, huh? Well, I assure you, I am not alone, and parking machines that take credit cards are a godsend.
Re:There must be a better way (Score:5, Insightful)
Your car has pockets too.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
And yet they too are mysteriously empty!
I'm with GP I never have quarters. I never have cash. I have never have quarters. I never have nickels. As far as I'm concerned magnetic strips are the only way to pay with for goods and services.
Re:There must be a better way (Score:5, Insightful)
It's quite likely you have several of the required tokens in your pocket now. Perhaps on your dresser. Each one has a president on it if you're American. Otherwise most likely, the queen or some figure important to your country.
Re:There must be a better way (Score:5, Interesting)
Here in Auckland, NZ, we just fire a text message to the parking meter's 4 digit shortcode. $2 comes off the mobile balance, and parking paid. Granted, there needs to be a nearby parking meter so you can get the validation code from it, but they're not more than maybe 20 metres away in most places. You can still pay by cash or Visa if you want to.
Re:There must be a better way (Score:5, Interesting)
Turns out the Accounts department didn't like me doing that, and cancelled it without telling me. Apparently they'd rather I fill out an expense claim, get it signed by my manager, than fax it to accounts, at which stage they'd credit it to me again. For two dollars, every month (man of principle, etc.)
Corporate Accountants FTW - without them two dollars each month would be incorrectly classified as Telecomms rather than Travel - thank god they caught me out at my terrible little game.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Seriously, enough with bashing Americans. The Brits are at least catching up, if not passing, America in obesity. So is China. If it makes you feel better about yourself or the country you live in then go ahead, but let's hope that the air of superiority doesn't blindside you when you or your family members find themselves overweight.
PS: most people in NY don't own cars. They get places by walking and standing on the subway for an hour when there are no seats.
Forged Tickets? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
NYC they have wireless auto ticket printers. they'll just scan your registration and print a ticket in a few minutes and let you go to court to sort it out
Put the "dumb" where it belongs (Score:2)
Number each spot (Score:4, Insightful)
Numbers spots inply painted lines (Score:4, Interesting)
And painted lines are either too small to parallel park your stupid Hummer, or a massive waste of space to park a smart car. Without lines, you can squeeze more cars into a block because people get right on each others ass--which is the way it should be. Everybody should get on each others ass, that way there is no wasted space.
Put in lines, and you waste an assload of space so some idiot can parallel park his boat-car.
No thanks. I'll keep my city streets free of painted lines and if they become painted, I (and most of my neighbors) will take the suggestion, but if there is enough space, we'll happily park our cars between the lines. After all, when it takes 15 or 25 minutes to find a space, if my car can fit, I'm parking it--fuck your lines.
PS: nothing makes me smile more than grown men who need their wife/girlfriend/friend to get out and guide them into *giant* spot. Buddy, I can park your car so there is only two inches between the guy in front and the guy behind and do it without tapping either bumper. It takes a while, but as I said, when you look for 25 minutes to find a spot--if I even think I can fit, fuck it, I'm going in!
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
nothing makes me smile more than grown men who need their wife/girlfriend/friend to get out and guide them into *giant* spot. Buddy, ... there is only two inches between the guy in front and the guy behind and do it without tapping either bumper. It takes a while, but as I said, when you look for 25 minutes to find a spot--if I even think I can fit, fuck it, I'm going in!
Funny how you can omit a few words and it takes an entirely different context...
Re:Number each spot (Score:4, Insightful)
The car has to be tied to the payment.
Why? It wasn't with the old pay meters -- get out, drop your quarters in, and go. When you drive away from the meter with time still on it, somebody else gets a few minutes free. It would be nice, maybe, for the city (or in this case, Morgan Stanley... don't get me started here), but definitely not necessary.
Race Condition? (Score:5, Insightful)
What happens if parking enforcement comes around while you're in the middle of the walk-wait-pay-walk process?
Re:Race Condition? (Score:5, Funny)
They fine you if you're black
oh wait
Re:Race Condition? (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, you'll get a ticket.
"You were on your way to pay for your space, were you? Sure, we get that all the time. You can take it up with the court in a few weeks. Mind that you remember to pay your parking next time."
Why should they change anything? The goal is to make money, and that's exactly what this will be doing.
Re:Race Condition? (Score:4, Insightful)
AFAIK, it's considered parking if it takes longer than 5 minutes. At least in my country: If you stop the car, it's considered a stop. If you keep it in the same place for more than 5 minutes, it's considered a halt and if you halt in a parking place, it's considered parking. We have the same situation here, you have to buy tickets and put them in your window and if the police wants to prove you've parked, they have to have at least 5 minutes of footage of your car not moving while other things are moving around it. The question is: what do you do if it takes you more than 5 minutes? Now, in that case, you can object by proving that you didn't have enough time and you should win the case and that would get you rid of the fine... so the actual question is: who pays you for the time you spent proving you were innocent? The classic question in democracy.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
In Portland, they have one meter on the face of each block with parking. At worst, you have to cross the street or go around a corner, if the one meter on your face is broken. So odds are, you'll be able to see the parking enforcement person walking to your car, and yell "I'm at the pay-station!" (I've done that once, and it was a case where the meter on the side I was on was out-of-order, so I was on the other side of the street.) In parking in downtown Portland metered spaces a couple hundred times si
Robots can fix anything. (Score:3, Informative)
Robot Parking Garage [youtube.com]
You can build them upwards, you can build them downwards. They take up so much less space than sidewalk parking. Properly designed, they can park and retrieve vehicles really freaking fast.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Bad idea in general (Score:4, Informative)
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Issuing speeding tickets is not a "service".
Old Style Meters (Score:5, Interesting)
Also, the new meters could have worked, but the out-sourcing to a private company destroyed any hope of that.
An example of their ineptitude: they forgot to put batteries in some of the meters, making it impossible to get the magic slip of paper, and then ticketed people for it.
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Hell, last time I went to a private store, those idiots weren't even charging for their parking lot. I'm not surprised they're fucking this up.
The largest shopping centre in the European Union [wikipedia.org] doesn't charge for parking. It has a total of 10,000 spaces, including three multi-story carparks. It also has it's own bus station, and train station.
That should tell people something about how to do parking right.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Which reminds me of my first thought upon seeing this story... My solution? Park in some city OTHER than Chicago.
Seriously, if you want to drive people away from downtown businesses, make parking onerous compared to malls, where it's always free and a lot easier to find a spot, too.
Decent system (Score:3, Informative)
Jury Isn't Out (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Jury Isn't Out (Score:4, Insightful)
I heard a commentary around the time of the Rod Blagojevich scandal that said it is the fault of the Chicagoans that Chicago is so corrupt. The idea was that when someone is in power, they just kind of expect that people around will get a little kickback, it makes sense to them. So a government like Chicago is what you get when you're not willing to fight back against that kind of stuff, just like the US gets a government that starts wars in various countries because we accept it and we're not willing to fight back against it. I'm not sure if that characterization of Chicago, but it sounds plausible enough.
I do think that, to some extent, there's truth in the idea that people get the government they expect. And Chicago - not to mention Illinois - is certainly a place that keeps electing more lizards [williams.edu].
To be completely honest, I think what's been so offensive about the parking meters to so many people is that the corruption in Chicago is, ultimately, expected to result in good services and a smooth-running city. I've never thought about it this way before, but for all of the overt signs of Daley's power I can think of - Meigs Field's demolition [wikipedia.org], the planters on Michigan Avenue, Millennium Park - as much as people bitch and moan, the end product is really quite wonderful.
As I said, I've never made that connection as it applies to the parking meters, and I don't think the reason for the outrage at the parking meters and the complacency at Meigs Field, Millennium Park, and so on is conscious. But when I am proud of Chicago it's for the many things that make it a beautiful and wonderful city. Had Daley sold the parking meter rights in the same ridiculous, undemocratic, veiled process but provided good service, I would have whined about another example of Daley's iron grip and then gone and enjoyed the magic auto-parking robots that sang "My Kind of Town."
I suppose the lesson is that, if you're going to be corrupt, at least make sure your corruption results in a better [whatever] than before...
-Trillian
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One thing I have to ask is: why a parking technology contract would legitimately have a 75 year term? Technology moves so fast that a five year term might be excessive. At 75 years, you might as well be signing a contract for lighting the streets using whale oil. Keeping the term short is another form of leverage to keep the contractor reasonably in line.
they are meant to to increase revenue (Score:3, Interesting)
old style meters if you park at one with time left over then the city "lost" money
new meters when you park unless someone gives you a ticket with time on it you have to pay even if the person before you didn't use all their time
User friendly for whom? (Score:5, Insightful)
The parking meters described are user hostile to the population of Chicago. However, they do a much better job of keeping the life of the organization that bought them and runs them easy than having to physically collect coins from so many different parking meters.
The government is not the people.
Taiwan system is driver friendly (Score:5, Informative)
In Taiwan it appears driver friendly rather than operator friendly. People just park and leave, then a parking inspector would come round every 30 minutes or something, take a photo of their number plate with a device, and leave a waterproof ticket on their windshield. Each time the inspector comes round he or she leaves more tickets on each windshield. When the driver comes back they get all the tickets and pay them at the nearest 7-11. I assume you have a certain grace period to pay the tickets.
Re:Taiwan system is driver friendly (Score:4, Insightful)
You'd have to pay and maintain a force of a lot more attendants than are currently needed.
The real problem is that we don't think that's a good idea.
We offshore all manufacturing and remote-service (telephone). Then we automate as much existing service as we can.
End result: No one has a fucking job.
Perhaps we should just, you know, hire a people at ten dollars an hour to run around photographing cars, or at least emptying meters, instead of building a giant multi-million dollar system.
The real joke is that half these multi-million dollar systems don't work right, so end up getting replaced way before they make back the money they cost. And the half that work are via 'partnerships' with private industries who pay for the cost, but then skim so much off the top that they don't make as much money as they did originally either.
We're spending more money to have less jobs and a crappier system. The only advantage is that private companies selling the system make more money, and I don't...oh, wait. I get it now.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
What you're describing is the effect of minimum-wage laws: when you institute (or raise) a minimum wage, the jobs that paid less don't become better paid, they just go away entirely.
Sounds like a standard system to me (Score:5, Informative)
I've seen this in multitude of places world wide. Not so popular in US but exists here and there. What exactly is their problem? Walking half a block extra? I knew people in Chicago were some of the least fit in the country but this sounds like extreme whining. Would they prefer to walk back from wherever they are every hour to "feed the meter"? Or do they want a system that lets them pay without leaving the car? That's called a parking garage :)
Re:Sounds like a standard system to me (Score:5, Insightful)
The whole idea of a smart meter is (or should be) efficiency. It should be efficient for the municipality to collect fees, and it should be efficient for the user to use. That seems pretty self-evident to me. To that end, it is completely reasonable to expect a system that lets you pay electronically at the meter itself. Having to go out of your way an extra block, especially if you're planning on going the other direction, is completely unreasonable. And It has nothing to with fitness. It has everything to do with wasting time that you shouldn't have to spend to begin with. Smart meters should make the process better, not worse.
Re:Sounds like a standard system to me (Score:4, Insightful)
Wow.
It has everything to do with wasting time that you shouldn't have to spend to begin with.
Really? Your life is so busy that you can't waste the minute or so it takes to walk *half a block out of your way*?
Actually, it does. No wonder people in this country are such fat-asses. They complain about walking half a damn block and try to rationalize it as "wasting time". Buddy... enjoy your life. If you live your life by such a hectic schedule, it won't be the obesity that does you in, it will be your little ticker deciding it doesn't like all this stress you are putting on it and subsequently deciding to malfunction--aka a heart attack.
Sheesh. One half block.
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Just because I happen to have extra time in my day doesn't mean I want to spend it on somebody's badly-designed parking meter system. You can't defend a bad concept with 'but the exercise will do you good'. Maybe it will, but it doesn't change the fact that it's still a bad concept. The new system is less convenient for people than the old system, and considering the technical advantages available today compared to when the old system was designed, that is pretty sad.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Walking half a block is a one-minute round trip. If you honestly don't have that much time on your hands, you might as well just double-park in front of the door at the organ transplant centre and worry about the tow later.
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
The System (Score:3, Insightful)
The system isn't made to be fair. It's made to generate revenue. If more revenue can be generated by making you walk half of a block, hell, even an entire block, why not two, then it's going to be that way. The city has no vested interest in making things easier for its inhabitants if making things easier nets them less revenue.
Especially when you throw in a kickback or bribe to certain members that have the power to vote on these things...
It's all about corruption. Why replace perfectly good parking meters with a convoluted new system that will ensure that people get fined or at least ripped off on the price? Because it generates more money. Not because it's safer, or an improvement, or healthier, etc.
It wasn't intended for revenue. (Score:4, Insightful)
The whole point of meters was to encourage people to be quick and move on, freeing up parking so others can patronize the same businesses. That's why there are time limits and feeding the meter is illegal in many places, even if you own the car.
Perhaps instead it's time to rethink the whole concept of meters and find a better way to accomplish the task. Preferably one which leaves as few hazards in a too-narrow roadway as it is. Something like.. valet parking, satellite lots, underground parking (I understand this has been very successful in Boston, for instance), mass transit, etc.
It is clear to anyone with more sense than a turnip that individual transportation machines is not a solution that scales well. But it's tricky because it's not enough to have the bandwidth, a viable "public transportation" option needs to have equivalent or better latency, too.
Re:The System (Score:5, Interesting)
My city started installing this system and I thought it was inefficient but could be more convenient in some circumstances.
However, I talked to one of the parking enforcement people and it was eye opening. They now know exactly when a meter expires via a wireless link from the smart meter to a handheld device. No need to walk past every meter now. They can just get a reading of which spot is expired and if a car is in that spot.
It's just a giant money grab by the city under the guise of "smart" technology. It's smart alright - smart for the city.
Park Plus (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yep, I've used Park Plus here in Calgary and I think it's great. It's convenient for first time users (walk to any Park Plus box, enter your license plate and leave). For more frequent users, the mobile version is even easier.
Being able to pay only for the parking time you need is fantastic.
The Vancouver Solution (Score:5, Informative)
The system works pretty well in Vancouver, Canada.
You can use coins as normal or you can dial a phone number to pay by credit card. Each meter has a number used to identify it.
The first time you use it, you have to register a license and your credit card number. After that, it remembers it based on your caller id I would imagine. You can register multiple cars no problem. It's a bit of a pain enter your license the first time you use it (it would be nice if you could try to use voice recognition first) but after the first time, it's pretty smooth.
The nice thing is that you don't have to go back to your car when you run out of time. To me, that is the biggest pain of street parking. Forget that you have to go half a block to pay for parking. If you have to run back from a few blocks, or in the middle of eating, that is even worse. With the system, we just call the number again and it asks if you want to extend your time. You just enter how many minutes.
I usually use it like this: (a) put in as many coins as I have and take a picture of the meter which has the id number with my iPhone (b) if I'm not back by the amount of time I got from the coins, I call and add time.
ParkMagic and the smart meters are stealing your $ (Score:5, Insightful)
The ParkMagic in-car meter is a scam on the part of the city to steal your paid-for parking time from you. (To be fair, the new smart meters a half a block away from you are probably a scam too). It used to be that if you had extra time on the meter, someone else could park there for the extra time and save themselves money. Considering that if someone else left with extra time you could park in their spot and take advantage of the free time, over the long run it would tend to average out that you were only paying for the actual time you spent parked in your spot.
Now with the new changes, nobody else can take advantage of leftover time on your meter when you leave, and you can't get any kind of refund. So all of the extra time that people pay for -- the city's getting their money for free.
Look Ma, No Competition! (Score:4, Informative)
You'd think, but at least in Chicago, the privatization contract included anti-competitive clauses:
Section 3.12. Competing Off-Street Parking.
(a) Subject to Section 3.12(b) and Section 3.12(c). the City will not operate, and will not permit the operation of, a "Competing Public Parking Facility." A "Competing Public Parking Facility" means any off-street public parking lot or public parking garage that (i) is (A) owned or operated by the City or (B) operated by any Person and located on land owned by the City, or leased to the City, (ii) is within one mile of a Concession Metered Parking Space, (iii) is used primarily for general public parking; (iv) has a schedule of fees for parking motor vehicles that is less than three times the highest Metered Parking Fees then in effect for Concession Metered Parking Spaces in the same area; and (v) was not used for general public parking on the effective date of this Agreement.
what a travesty /sarcasm (Score:5, Interesting)
Everyone says they want cities to stop over spending on infrastructure and to have realistic services but every time they inconvenience you just a little bit it's back to "spend spend spend! I can't walk half a block!"
These could be a good thing (Score:4, Insightful)
Similar installations have been deployed where I live, and have already had one major benefit:
Fewer people are taking cars in to town.
Though I'm not sure the local retailers share my enthusiasm on that one.
This is honestly a problem? (Score:5, Informative)
I'm a Portland resident and have been in constant contact with these meters since they were installed a few years back. Seriously, they are not that bad! I don't know why there is even a debate about them. They are reasonably dispersed in Portland, so the "have to walk" argument does not apply. The price is about what you would expect for street parking... And anybody stupid enough to be street parking for 24 hours deserves the cost. You need overnight? Try a garage. Much cheaper.
So far, no drawbacks. Plus you can use a credit/debit card. I was thrilled when these went in here in Portland, and I haven't changed my mind yet.
Can somebody please give a solid answer as to why these meters are a problem?
How it works in Portland (Score:3, Funny)
The Three R's of Portland
or
Why Portland Sucks
"Latte Town" was coined a few years back and is the most appropriate term for the City of Portland that I have ever heard. A Latte town consists of mostly white, educated baby boomers and young single people. The inhabitants of the town are usually newcomers who have priced out all the original inhabitants. These towns are usually expensive, pretentious, abound in natural fibers and are laid back on the surface. Latte towns like Portland pride themselves on their
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Can somebody please give a solid answer as to why these meters are a problem?
I haven't looked into the details of the Chicago or Portland meters, but... there's more than one company that makes these meters, and maybe the Portland ones are good and the Chicago ones suck? Or maybe the Chicago ones are too sparse and the Portland ones are placed frequently enough?
scratch-off cards (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:scratch-off cards (Score:5, Informative)
OP goes grocery shopping (Score:5, Funny)
1. Park your car.
2. Walk up to 1/2 block to store entrance.
3. Wait in line to enter and obtain a cart.
4. Pass the checkout counters and walk the equivalent of two or three blocks inside the stoor while manually loading groceries.
5. Wait in line to pay using coins or credit cards.
6. Wait for a paper receipt to be printed.
7. Walk up to 1/2 block back to your car.
8. Place the groceries in the car.
9. Head off to your destination.
10. Carry groceries inside destination.
11. Store groceries in various locations depending on consumability and shelf life at room temperature.
Embarassingly, it is already like this in Portland, Chicago and other cities worldwide.
So what? (Score:3, Insightful)
Whining about walking half a block. No wonder that not only does everybody think Americans are fat and lazy but that we really are. Come on, it's just a few parking spots well within sight of your car. If you have trouble walking that far and back, you really have no business even leaving your assisted care facility that you must live in.
Anyway, Seattle has the same ones that Portland has and they're great. Get a sticker to put on your car that can be paid with a card if you don't have tons of change. Works for the time you buy anywhere in the city. I can buy one sticker and be good for an afternoon of running errands. If the meter by my car is broke, I can just walk to the next one and still pay. (Jesus, an around the corner walk must make it not worth leaving the house for TFA poster. I can only wonder how they always manage to get a parking spot in front of where they want to go.)
If I was to bitch about such things, it would be because in Seattle, now that they've replaced all the old parking meters (which were usually broken and misread the time time elapsed anyway), they've started putting them in all the places that used to be free parking. It's getting harder and harder to find a spot thats not metered. Since I live in the older part of town (Capitol Hill) near downtown, street parking near my apartment which was hard enough to come by in a neighborhood where lots of buildings predate the common use of the car is now disappearing all together.
Ridiculous! (Score:5, Funny)
Oh my god. I dropped my cheesy fries, ice cream and XXL soda and almost had a heart attack just thinking about walking up to half a block! Please resuscitate me when somebody comes up with a drive-through parking meter payment system.
Worse than that (Score:5, Interesting)
In Ann Arbor, the "smart" meters are susceptible to an exploit where if you add 5 cents of time to a meter, you remove all the existing time on that meter. For $1, a prankster can reset 20 parking spots and watch everyone get parking tickets. More info at this screenshot of a now-deleted comment [flickr.com] on AnnArbor.com.
I like them.. (Score:3, Informative)
They work great in Portland Oregon. I don't mind walking a little ways and I can move to another spot and keep my time. The only thing I don't like about them is that they don't take dollar bills, only coins and cards.
Surgeon General Recommended Exercize Regime... (Score:3, Insightful)
Montréal parking meters (Score:3, Interesting)
Parking meters in Montréal are being replaced by smart Linux wireless solar-powered boxes [linuxfordevices.com]. The whole of downtown is done by now.
To use them [statdemtl.qc.ca], you just need to note the parking spot number, then walk to the nearby pay station in which you key-in the spot number and pay (they take credit and bank cards) for the duration you plan to park. You get a receipt which you don’t need to put on your dashboard; the parking spot and duration is sent to a central server.
Parking enforcement agents (the legendary “ green onions [myvirtualpaper.com]”) then are told by a hand-held computer which spots haven't been paid or are expired when they do their rounds. The computer only needs to be told the license plate number, and it prints the whole parking ticket automagically without subjecting the green onion to the risk of writer’s cramp (unfortunately, he still has to get out of his car and put it under the wipers).
Re:These things aren't all bad (Score:4, Informative)
They even make these handy devices which can be used to hold quarters and fit in your car's cup holders, or stick themselves to something on the dashboard to the right of the driver, or....
If you don't park downtown regularly - great! $20 in quarters should last a long time. If you do park there regularly - all the more reason to be prepared and stocked up!
Re:Get rid of... Parking Meters! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Get rid of... Parking Meters! (Score:5, Insightful)
That only really works if parking is a nearly unlimited commodity. Unmetered parking when parking is scarce just leads to people circling forever, like New York City.
I mean, sure, no payment is always the most convenient option, because you don't have to deal with payment. You could avoid the hassle of tokens or payment cards on a subway if subway rides were free, too.
Re:Get rid of... Parking Meters! (Score:4, Insightful)
Burbank is not Chicago. I haven't been to Burbank, but if it's an economical use of space in Burbank to put down free parking lots you can't even compare it to a real city (defined by density and layout -- Burbank is certainly a real place where people do real things, but it doesn't sound very urban) like Chicago. Parking meters are put on commercial streets because if they weren't people would park there indefinitely. The summary complains that it would cost $84 to park in some of these places for 24 hours. That's the point! To prevent people from doing that so that the street parking spots are open for convenient access to businesses and city buildings. You don't want parking across from City Hall or the main library downtown clogged with commuters, so use high per-hour rates to push them into parking garages. And you wouldn't want all the spots outside neighborhood cafés and restaurants occupied by residents, so you use meters to keep them on the residential streets (where, if there is a parking shortage, the landlords have an incentive to actually provide parking, which is somewhat rare in many older neighborhoods).
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
And why shouldn't parking generate revenue for the city? It's a limited public resource. Roads don't build themselves. Of all the money that goes into the city coffers charges for parking are probably some of the fairest. Much better that sales taxes, for example, and Chicago sales tax is already astronomical.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Sounds like you got ripped off, so it worked exactly as designed.
Re:There is a better way... (Score:4, Interesting)
That is why you have multiple meters per block (Score:3, Informative)
Seattle has these meters and you can walk about three or four cars in any direction and find a meter. *Three or four cars* Gasp! I'm getting winded just typing about the horror!!!
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Thank God that the government is turning over more of its functions to the private market.
Market? What market?
This is a 75-year lease. The government is turning over its functions to a private monopoly.
Why don't we just bring back the East India Company while we're at it?