Digsby IM Client Quietly Installs Badware 259
An anonymous reader writes "IM company Digsby has quietly included malware in an update to their client software that utilizes users' computing power and bandwidth while idle for a quick buck. When questioned, developers at Digsby claim that they have done no wrong and that users should not complain because the client software is 'free.'" The money-making distributed computing software is in addition to six "crapware" apps that users must refuse during installation. The terms of service that no one ever reads does describe the CPU- and bandwidth-robbing moneymaker, and its off switch is located behind the "Support Digsby" menu item.
Use Pidgin ... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Use Pidgin ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Agreed, and in the meantime, let them know why nobody is going to use their IM Client anymore.
bugs@digsby.com
http://forum.digsby.com/ [digsby.com]
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It's really bad to turn your PC off when you're done with it unless you don't use it very often. While power is coursing through your PC the components heat up and expand slightly. When you cut the power it cools back down and shrinks again. If you do this enough the microscopic connections start to fail and your computer either stops working or starts sparking.
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Except Pidgin fucking sucks dog balls. I tried using that. Used it for over a year. I thought it was NORMAL for a multi-chat client to crash a couple times a week. Tried digsby, no crashes, worked well.
Then I found out about the CPU bit, and I'll be uninstalling it when I return home. Maybe that Trillian Astra will be better than the old Trillian.
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If you use Windows you should try Miranda [miranda-im.com]. It's got a low footprint, it has all the great features you could wish for from an IM client (except video chat), and it's free. Plus it supports Jabber and Gtalk whereas the free version of Trlilian does not.
Free or not... (Score:5, Insightful)
This is part of the bargain - if you give away something for "free" and advertise it as "free", it needs to be "free" - as in not just that the costs are hidden. Otherwise, it really is a Trojan Horse.
Don't reap the goodwill of the public when you're secretly using them.
Re:Free or not... (Score:5, Interesting)
The FTC (Score:3)
The FTC gets around to doing something about it when a Senator falls victim to it.
Since the state and federal computers are fairly tightly controlled, and most of their "computing" is done by interns, don't expect much to happen for a while. Unless a lot of people make a lot of noise.
Cynical yes, but not exactly a rare circumstance.
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Don't they usually say "after MIR" ?
I'd rather have it free after MIR than not free at all...
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I don't want anymore "Fat free" foods that aren't fat free.
A lot of food adverts over here have started claiming "virtually fat free". They don't state how they are defining "virtually" in these instances though.
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You have to ask yourself, would people not install my "free" software if they knew what it was doing - if the answer is anywhere close to yes, you have a moral obligation to reveal the details.
I take a bit of a different angle. From the T&C they post:
"15. USAGE OF COMPUTER RESOURCES.
You agree to permit the Software to use the processing power of your computer when it is idle to run downloaded algorithms (mathematical equations) and code within a process. You understand that when the Software uses your computer, it likewise uses your CPU, bandwidth, and electrical power. The Software will use your computer to solve distributed computing problems, such as but not limited to, accelerating medic
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This passage from the T&C sounds reasonably clear and specific, and I can expect a reasonably educated person to understand it. I don't see what the problem is. If you didn't read the T&C before installing, why not?
FOSS, maybe? (Score:5, Informative)
Perhaps this is a good point in time to switch to Pidgin [pidgin.im] (multi-platform and my personal choice), Adium [adium.im] (Mac OS X), Empathy [gnome.org] (Gnome), Kopete [kde.org] (KDE), or some other, more trustworthy client?
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Why people never mention Miranda [miranda-im.com]? It's probably the best free & open-source client for Windows, so much better than Pidgin.
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I actually specifically use Firefox, Thunderbird, Pidgin and X-Chat because my profiles are pretty much portable to different platforms. I've gone through the use of XP, various Linux flavors, OSX, Vista, and Windows 7 in the past two years... Without having to re-setup all my accounts on a different client. If I were to go with a better client for windows, I would probably have stuck with Trillian, which imho is the gold standard for multi-IM clients.
Re:FOSS, maybe? (Score:4, Funny)
Why people never mention Miranda [miranda-im.com]? It's probably the best free & open-source client for Windows, so much better than Pidgin.
because anything you say via Miranda can and will be used against you in a court of law
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The OP mentioned MacOSx-only Adium.
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Pidgin-- unless you have a tablet PC or use voice recognition, Pidgin doesn't work with either of those. (Nor do any GTK+ applications on Windows, at least none I've seen... if anybody tells you a GTK+ app has a native look&feel, please slap them. Thank you.)
Anyway, I "solved" my problem by just switching to Live Messenger, which works with all of Microsoft's UI features, and all my friends were on anyway. The two people I had left on AIM, I just told them they'd have to switch too if they wanted to IM
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A year ago, the text-editing panel didn't show up for any text fields in Pidgin, nor did they get identified as controls to the speech recognition system. Maybe they've fixed that; frankly I doubt it.
I guess what you're doing is using the tablet's on-screen keyboard, and not editing fields in-place. Yes, that works, because the on-screen keyboard is treated as just a keyboard, but it's a far cry from "supporting tablet input".
(BTW, when I say "it doesn't work", I don't mean "it crashes," I mean "it doesn't
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Kopete is a really terrible application that I could never suggest anybody use, unless they really hate the alternatives.
--signed, a kopete user...
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Kopete does integrate well with the KDE addressbook, and with the KDE look&feel in general. Doesn't work very well with webcams. The version I use (3.5.9, I think) is not too crashy.
It might not be as good as Pidgin, but I personally cannot stand GTK applications and their huge buttons...
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As of a few months ago, kopete occasionally dropped messages silently (confirmed via other channels). I switched to pidgin and no longer had to restart the program each time a "still there?" question went unanswered.
For webcam support on yahoo, gyachi [sourceforge.net] works nearly flawlessly for me.
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Yeah, I use Kopete .70.90 (KDE 4.3.0 version) for exactly the same reason. It works alright now and it's integration with KDE 4.x has gotten much better, but there is still the occasional annoying bug.
That was a close one (Score:2)
Free competitors are equal or better than Digsby (Score:4, Informative)
Why not use one of the many free competing IM clients?
My favourite is Miranda [miranda-im.com] (Windows only, free but not open source)) because it's incredibly lightweight, uses the default Windows UI, and has an incredibly active plugin community.
Then there's Pidgin [pidgin.im] (multiplatform, free open source) which is also an excellent and mature IM which is also very extensible.
No crapware whatsoever on these similar apps. Support the projects that contribute to the initiatives of free software with your downloads and your dollars. Snub the software that steals control of your computer for monetary gain.
correction (Score:4, Informative)
My mistake! I'm happy to state that Miranda is both free and open source!
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Then there's Pidgin [pidgin.im] (multiplatform, free open source) which is also an excellent and mature IM which is also very extensible.
And crashes twice a week, thrice if the wind blows hard. What made me finally stop using it was the 4 crashes in one day.
It Would Be A Bad Thing (Score:5, Insightful)
... if someone were to hack the malware. It would be very bad if they changed it so it downloaded copyrighted stuff, say whole CDs of recent music, to Digsby's machines, and then sent email to RIAA saying it's there. It would be a very, very bad thing indeed if this were then redistributed and thousands of unsuspecting people installed it and remained unsuspecting as the usually do, while it did its job then erased itself, because otherwise it would have been a Simply Awful very, very bad thing.
Due diligence (Score:2, Insightful)
Here's your problem:
In other words, they told you about it in documentation you agreed to and said your read but didn't. This sounds kind of familiar. I think it is because of all the people I have heard say "I didn't know that was in the contract. I signed it but didn't read it. You know, just like all those people with the "sub-prime" adjustable rate mortgages that ballooned after 2 years.
It is called due di
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There is such a thing as a reasonable expectation of the program's functionality. You can't legally put "if you do 100mph for 10 minutes, then a hidden bomb in the tank explodes" in a car rental contract, and neither can you legally add unrelated stealth functions to a program just because you said so in the ToS.
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Except the menu item is in HELP. Under SUPPORT DIGSBY. And then it's in the middle, with nothing to make it stand out from the other options on there. They hid it as well as they fucking could have, and now that they're called on it, they're moving it again. To preferences. Only it'll still be on the "Support Digsby" tab. So most users who don't want to support digsby more than they are won't touch it.
Mod parent up! (Score:2, Informative)
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Existing users who recieved automatic updates never recieved an updated EULA or any kind of notice of this addition and it was not even mentioned in the changelog.
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Then that is a different story. But, then again, they probably agreed to that in the original TOS or EULA.
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In other words, they told you about it in documentation you agreed to and said your read but didn't.
And if the Digsby devs weren't sociopathic assholes, they'd have advertised the "price" for their software instead of trying to hide it under multiple layers, doing only the bare legal minimum to cover their butts. I'm sure plenty of people would have been happy to let their computer do some number crunching if Digsby were up front about it.
It is called due diligence and everyone should practice it, not just lawyers and businesses.
You're joking, right? No one except the very rich or the very poor has the time to read through all the legalese presented to them at least ten times daily (every purc
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I call bullshit. I do it all the time and I am neither very rich nor very poor. You can read through most of the items you have listed in less than one minute. All but the most complicated can be read through in less than 10 minutes.
Ignorance an
Re:Due diligence (Score:5, Insightful)
And, as one person who replied to you also pointed out, if this was done via an automatic update without you clicking through to agree with a new EULA stating this, they're in trouble.
Re:Due diligence (Score:4, Insightful)
As for the sub-prime adjustable rate mortgages that ballooned after 2 years... The number of people that didn't know EXACTLY what they were getting is so small as to be irrelevant. People getting sub-prime ARMs just let greed get in their way and made the stupid prediction that housing prices would always increase dramatically faster than inflation. Of course some people got 3 of them, and when the short term housing price increase happened, they massively mortgaged two of them, put the money into the third, and when prices dropped, they cried that they didn't understand as they walked away from the two massively mortgaged houses with the third being free.
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That is bullshit and you know it. How often do you have to agree to a TOS or EULA? Most people can read through the average TOS or EULA in about 10 minutes. Somehow I doubt you can't spend 10 minutes doing that rather than watching some stupid TV show
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So everything Digsby did was a-ok because the only stupid people were conned? Great.
Things have different levels of importance, this should be pretty easy to understand: some things deserve to be buried deep into "documentation" and some things require more attention -- in this case there should have been a page in the installation wizard that explains the issue and Äets the user choose.
The fact that Digsby developers did not do that tells me they are either incompetent or malicious. I am not intereste
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No one got conned. They agreed to do what happened. They should have read what they were agreeing to. You can whine all you want about where you think it should go, but until people are willing to take personal responsibility, practice due diligence, and read what they are agreeing to you have no argument.
The Digsby developers did nothing wrong and are neither incompetent or malicious. The only incompetent people in this instance are the ones that agreed to something without knowing what they are agreeing t
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Except it wasn't IN the TOS when I started using Digsby.
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Nice red herring, too bad it does not apply. It isn't even close.
Badware? (Score:4, Insightful)
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While I agree with you that making up words is annoying, badware is different from malware: http://stopbadware.org/home/badware [stopbadware.org]
It's a broader term that includes adware as well as directly malicious software. I don't think malware has the same scope.
N ot free (Score:2, Informative)
It's not free if it costs you electricity to run the CPU at full power 24/7. All modern processors have idle states in which they reduce energy consumption. These are not just "wasted cycles" that could be put to some use anyway.
A large amount of people also have metered bandwidth connections which might get impacted by this.
Re:N ot free (Score:5, Insightful)
Laptop users also get less battery life.
users should not complain (Score:5, Insightful)
users should not complain because the client software is 'free.'
A malware spreader saying this is like a person who knowingly spreads HIV saying his victims shouldn't complain because they got sex for free. I was going to say "rapist" but digsby doesn't install via drive-by download.
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I was going to say "rapist" but digsby doesn't install via drive-by download.
Apparently, it installed via auto-update with no warning for those who already had it. Is that close enough for you?
Good call. Date Rape! Date Rape!
What is the point of this program anyway? (Score:2)
Aren't there about for zillion great free IM applications out there already? Why would someone use this one? What is the specific draw?
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Aren't there about for zillion great free IM applications out there already? Why would someone use this one? What is the specific draw?
I used it to combine my Yahoo IM and Twitter feeds (yes, I follow certain people/things in Twitter). Also, it notified me about emails. Alas, I speak of it in the past tense. It was a nice program, but I was always a little leery about whether Digsby was doing something I didn't like. I noticed on IE, which I rarely use, that the search said "Google Search powered by Digsby." I knew that meant I missed a checkbox during the annoying install process.
I uninstalled using Revo. The Digsby uninstaller left a bun
LOL! (Score:5, Funny)
users should not complain because the client software is 'free.'
Oh, I'd love to kick that guy in the nads and when he says "Dude! What up?" I'll say "Shut up! It was free!" and then he'd be all weepy like and I'd be all laughin' up in his face. Yeah, good times.
fyi (Score:3, Informative)
From steve: digsby developer
@All: This issue will be addressed first thing in the morning. As for performance, the functionality has actually been off this entire time. It is in the TOS because it was planned for the future and Digsby has not been using your CPU/Bandwidth when idle so if you have had performance issues it is not Digsby related.
Old news (Score:5, Informative)
This started up back in December of last year according to the forum posts. To top it off, Steve the administrator, shut off the research module since then. Why the stir now? Plura is the one that needs to be hammered that provided the software for this.
who? (Score:2)
cool, (Score:2)
Wow, this is considered "badware"? It seems like a feature to me! Can I install the "badware" without getting Digsby with it?
Am I missing something? (Score:2, Insightful)
They were caught doing this before... Nothing new. (Score:3, Insightful)
They were caught doing this before, so much that users made a big stink on their forums and they had to respond with a public statement. Apparently they havent learned their lesson.
Then again its probably the only way they can stay in business so they'll do whatever it takes to make some money.
Either way... I dont care. I dont use the software. I did install it recently while looking for an alternative to pidgin.... I now regret that greatly.
Re:Nuisance of free software (Score:5, Informative)
Again, Ubuntu didn't do anything wrong. They just changed the default "new tab" page from about:blank to the Ubuntu-themed Google search page that's already the default home page. They log usage of their web search service, like everyone else.
Also paying for software doesn't protect you from crapware. Just because they have less incentive to include that stuff doesn't mean they don't.
Re:Nuisance of free software (Score:5, Interesting)
Agreed, Digsby on the other hand is utilizing what should be idle horsepower. While this may seem innocuous since it is not being used by other stuff, it does not come without cost.
I have a computer tuned to speedstep down and use less power when idled. That means I spend less money per month to run that system. Power costs money, so in effect, Digsby is costing you money by doing this. Granted this may only be a fraction of a cent, multiplied by a few people monthly...well I'm sure you all saw the movie.
IT IS A BIG DEAL.
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> Power costs money
Knowledge is power.
I KNOW how you can save money...
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Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Knowledge = Power
Time = Money
Substitute into the equation "Power = Work/Time":
Knowledge = Work/Money
Rearrange:
Money = Work/Knowledge
Therefore as
Knowledge --> 0
Money --> Infinite
Regardless of the amount of work done
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But the user gets hit multiple times when their computer works hard. They get to pay f
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It's a fraction of a cent on the mains. When you're running on battery, you also get less 'up time.'
I'm all for supporting the developers. I don't care how many pages of opt-out I have to do when signing up. Just don't try to trick me.
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In my area, hydro costs roughly 11 cents per kwh. A device using 1 watt, 24 hours a day works out to roughly one dollar a year, thus a PC using 200 watts costs roughly $200/year to operate 24/7.
If you let your PC idle on Speedstep (or equivalent), saving maybe 30-40 watts for 16 hours a day, you're "saving" between 20 and 30 bucks a year vs having Speedstep disabled. If you put the machine in S3 sleep (aka Standby), your PC's power consumption drops to 5 watts or less. Those savings are what Digsby's cr
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There's no need to pull ancient ethics philosophy debate into this discussion. We all know very well what we consider bad practices in a tech context.
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"Well, if everyone else was jumping off a bridge..." </mom>
I'd go last so that there would something softer than the ground to land on
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Did we already forget that Ubuntu also installed such and without consent [slashdot.org] (and Linux Mint) - here you atleast have the change to disallow installing it.
As someone mentioned here [slashdot.org], it's not alarming as you make it seem. It's only in the alpha version and not meant for the release version. Granted, I would have liked them to be a bit more forward about it, I'm not terribly upset.
Re:Nuisance of free software (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Nuisance of free software (Score:5, Insightful)
If you've paid for your software, you can usually [expect] that they wont fuck you over with that crap
So why are there ads in some PC games that cost over fifty bucks to buy?
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"If you've paid for your software, you can usually [expect] that they wont fuck you over with that crap"
So why are there ads in some PC games that cost over fifty bucks to buy?
Probably because the average gamer is less likely to notice shenanigans and get upset by them. Wipeout had ads added, they were pulled because of gamer outrage, but most of that was likely because the ads noticeably slowed down the loading times [joystiq.com]. I suspect if there wasn't a slowdown, gamers wouldn't have enough of a problem with it.
Keep in mind that most gamers are young not to realize that advertising shouldn't be something you can't help breathing constantly, and many just don't care. I admit I still
Re:Nuisance of free software (Score:5, Insightful)
Bullshit, they'd cost the same as they ever did except they figured out they could add ads for just about nothing and increase their profit margins even more.
If you really believe that in-game advertisements subsidize the cost of games then you really are ignorant.
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And they were right. They could add ads. And they did. And likely increased their profit. I don't see the problem here, really... it's up to them to decide whether or not they can sell ads. It's up to game players whether or not it's worth $50 to them or not. If the gaming community is willing to pay $50, I don't honestly see why they can't charge $50.
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Yea, it's so super that I get to not pay for games that have adds, especially when they can be patched in later.
I hate adverts with a passion. The whole concept of an advertisement is that someone is saying, it's a scientific fact that it's in my best interest to get you to believe stuff, and at some level you'll believe it just from seeing it, so that's worth it to me and sucks to be you!
So, I avoid them whenever I can. I don't watch TV, I have adblock installed, and that's a lot of ads right there I nev
Re:Nuisance of free software (Score:5, Insightful)
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Software companies can always find ways to increase profit margins per unit sold. Some people prefer it come from advertising, rather than coming from price rises or developer lay-offs.
Basically, it makes a difference.
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The point is THEY are the ones that started the epeen graphics bullshit, and NOT us.
Nope, we, the customers, did drive this trend towards ultra-graphical gaming. How many generations of bleeding-edge video cards did people buy to play bleeding-edge games, and how many bleeding-edge games did people buy to make the most of their bleeding-edge graphics cards? I seem to remember this trend lasting from around the time of Quake I, until a couple of years ago. This was a customer driven thing, no one "needed
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There has been countless numbers of open source projects that also do this. Just because it's open source it doesn't mean you're safe from such tactics - it just means the source is open. You can check the source and remove those parts, but not many of us do so.
To extend this, I'm going to take a wild leap of faith and assume the summary is correct when it states:
The terms of service that no one ever reads does describe the CPU- and bandwidth-robbing moneymaker
I'd ask, then, what are you (the end user) going to read? If you aren't willing to read the TOS, are you really that likely to peruse through the source code of an application just because you happen to have it available?
Terms of Service (Score:2)
How many people do you know that actually ready the TOS before they purchase the product?
Re:Terms of Service (Score:4, Insightful)
How many people do you know that actually ready the TOS before they purchase the product?
How many products do you know, that have a TOS you can read before purchasing?
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Ubuntu's meant shit, and LinuxMint just changes your search pages.
Get over it. Move on.
This Digsby one is where your fight should be.
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That's how the IE search bars started out. A little search page change here, a little redirect there. Next thing you know it's Bonzai Buddy all over again.
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Define "free."
Re:You get what you pay for... and then some more. (Score:4, Funny)
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Yup, always look for well used open source projects before turning to free (or payed) ones. In my opinion, I like free projects about as much as payed ones. They are free, but you won't get any support as you do with open source packages that are doing well. And most of the time they are single man jobs, or side jobs of commercial companies. This means that they are much more likely to contain crap-ware as well. Payed software is only OK if it includes some kind of statement about support and upgrades. If i
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Yup, always look for well used open source projects before turning to free (or payed) ones.
Any ideas for good Free alternative to video games such as Halo series, Animal Crossing series, Super Smash Bros. series, or Mario Kart series?
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Holy crap, mod parent off topic. If you can't find any popular computer related topics using Google, in general they don't exist.
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I hope you have some asbestos underwear, and outerwear, and overwear.
And, some marshmallows.
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Except it wasn't transparent until they got called on it. It's #15 in the TOS. The way to opt-out was to go to "Help" then click on "Support Digsby" then find it in the list of 12 or so options.
If this had been an "opt-in" via check-box, similar to the crapware with the installer, I wouldn't be searching for a new multi-client IM program now.
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If by "a while back" you mean "this morning," then yes.
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It wasn't in the TOS when I started using it.
I was never told about it when it was added.
And it's 3 clicks, but under "help," and "support digsby." Not exactly intuitive to disable a "feature."