Palm Pre Reports Your Location and Usage To Palm 314
AceJohnny writes "Joey Hess found that his Palm Pre was ratting on him. It turns out the Pre periodically uploads detailed information about the user to Palm, including the names of installed apps, application usage (and crashes), as well as GPS coordinates. This, of course, is without user consent or control. The only way he found to disable the uploads was to modify system files."
Did it not occur to PALM that this is BAD? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Did it not occur to PALM that this is BAD? (Score:5, Insightful)
I wonder what kind of backlash there will be about this
Answer: Not Enough
Re:Did it not occur to PALM that this is BAD? (Score:5, Insightful)
Answer: Not Enough
True. Likely there will be no repercussions whatever. Yet another example of an amoral corporation not giving a shit about their customers. Welcome to the 21st century.
Re:Did it not occur to PALM that this is BAD? (Score:5, Insightful)
True. Likely there will be no repercussions whatever. Yet another example of an amoral corporation not giving a shit about their customers. Welcome to the 21st century.
And that's different from other centuries how?
Re:Did it not occur to PALM that this is BAD? (Score:5, Funny)
Look up "prole drift." More people have opportunities to better themselves than ever before; now *everyone* has a chance to run a shady business and abuse their positions of power. Things like grass lawns and vacations also used to be the exclusive playthings of the wealthy.
Re:Did it not occur to PALM that this is BAD? (Score:5, Funny)
> Things like grass lawns and vacations also used to be the exclusive playthings of the elderly.
Fixed that for you. Now get off my lawn.
Re:Did it not occur to PALM that this is BAD? (Score:5, Insightful)
And that's different from other centuries how?
In previous centuries, corporations had a more narrow base of customers. Today's world has the internet and a global economy that dwarfs previous centuries' world trade. The 21st century corporation has six billion potential customers, more than enough to care about one or a thousand.
Re:Did it not occur to PALM that this is BAD? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Did it not occur to PALM that this is BAD? (Score:5, Informative)
> Likely there will be no repercussions whatever.
Right. You'll whine and whine, but you'll keep right on buying the stuff.
Re:Did it not occur to PALM that this is BAD? (Score:5, Funny)
Yet another example of an amoral corporation not giving a shit about their customers.
I disagree. They care about you so much that they want to know where you are all the time. Next step is to turn on the voice recording feature in the middle of the night to make sure you're still breathing.
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Well, if my fellow coworkers who chose the Pre over the iPhone were not quite ready to return their devices for full refund and termination of any contract signed at purchase when Palm "hacked" iTunes and Apple promptly "fixed" it cutting all the users off from sync, now they REALLY have a strong case to return it.
In fact, I just mentioned this article to a co-worker who was showing off his shiny new Pre to me late last week, which after using it for a few days and finding out contrary to what the clerk tol
Re:Did it not occur to PALM that this is BAD? (Score:5, Insightful)
In fact, I just mentioned this article to a co-worker who was showing off his shiny new Pre to me late last week, which after using it for a few days and finding out contrary to what the clerk told him that he could in fact not sync with iTunes, He's clocking out now to return it to the store he bought it from and promised to be headed to Bestbuy to pick up an iPhone 3GS on the way back...
So wait.. your coworker was so mad that Palm wouldn't parry Apple's anti-competitive measures and Palm's collection of usage/GPS data, that he rushed out to sign a contract with the company at the center of the warrantless wiretapping [wikipedia.org] debacle? The same company that, in response to hoards of customer complaints, pulled strings in congress to get an unconstitutional ex-post-facto law passed to prevent them from being criminally prosecuted for turning over every bit of customer data they could get their hands on to the feds? Yea, I can see how the average American consumer would make that choice.
Re:Did it not occur to PALM that this is BAD? (Score:5, Informative)
hey, AT&T may have complied with illegal orders to provide wire taps, and even played some questionable moves to avoid prosecution, but lets place the blame where it really lies; the Bush Administration... AT&T was not the only company to comply with these orders, and was told quite explicitly, by judges, that the orders were in fact valid...
AT&T may have broken the law, and violated the privacy of many (suspected crimainals/terorists) Americans, but they did so under a supposed legal authority and under orders to do so, and these wire taps (most of them) were actually for people accused or associated with active federal investigations. Palm is collecting personal information, it has NO association with any criminal activity and no basis in law, and they're doing it without informed concent, and without a way to disable the tracking, and wihtout support or order by the government, and I bet they're doing it without the Phone Company's knowledge too. (and if the phone company IS aware of it, they're FAR more guilty than AT&T is...
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And how is this differnt from former MCI's friend and family policy? The simple collection and parsing of information YOU ALREADY HAVE, is not in itself illegal. In fact, pen registers are not subject to 4th amendement protections unless that information is traded or sold, which it was not, accepting that giving it to the NSA was under what AT&T and others considered a legal order to do so.
A previous court case against MCI did not outlaw their practice, it only prompted MCI to change how they USED tha
Palm still the lesser of two evils. (Score:3, Interesting)
He's clocking out now to return it to the store he bought it from and promised to be headed to Bestbuy to pick up an iPhone 3GS on the way back...
Honestly I think this would be a dumb move, being that Apple is more "evil" than Palm, and AT&T is more "evil" than Sprint.
Consider this:
* If Microsoft pulled even HALF the shenanigans Apple does ("fixing" iTunes when thrd parties figure out ho to sync to it, suing the competition, suing people who leak info on unreleased products, etc etc) they'd be hauled into court and sued into oblivion. But, Apple can still get away with it because they are not a monopoly and their products are hip/pretty/actually
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Yup, and we expect either them to get slapped on the wrist and told to undo it by the association, told to stop selling the devices by court order and potentially recall all of them, or both the above combined with heavy fines. Either way we also expect Apple to fix the new "fix" upon the very next release...
As it is, and I spoke to him minutes ago as he was packing up for the day, my friend indicated that iTunes does in fact not currently sync his stuff today. Wether or not he's missing an update that m
Re:Did it not occur to PALM that this is BAD? (Score:5, Funny)
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"90%"? Polyanna.
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Good news for me, though. My Verizon contract is up in 5 months and I will be moving to a network with decent phones. I've been really struggling between iPhone, webOS, and Android, but now it is just between Android and iPhone.
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Re:Did it not occur to PALM that this is BAD? (Score:5, Funny)
> some do. its just hit the lawyer boards.
> http://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1062087&mc=1&forum_id=2 [autoadmit.com]
Err umm, Some of my um CLIENTS need to know if their Palm Pre will record visits to their prostitutes.
Ahem... please answer this question before 4pm this afternoon, if possible.
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Some of my um CLIENTS need to know if their Palm Pre will record visits to their prostitutes.
That's it! That was Palm's motivation all along! To collect one gargantuan database of the most popular prostitutes!
Whoa to datamine this beauty.... you could find out the most popular prostitutes - and avoid them! Go to unpopular ones and haggle for the price! Find out the REAL unpopular ones for the most kinky stuff!
Not that I'd be interested, mind you. No sir, not me.
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I'm sure Palm will be getting some records preservation orders from the FBI soon, and lots of information requests.
Since it's now known that they get this information sent to them about third parties, the information became discoverable by law enforcement.
When a third party possesses information about you, law enforcement can compel discovery much more easily than if you possessed it; the standard is lesser than probable cause required for a warrant.
If they own a palm pre... one national security let
Re:Did it not occur to PALM that this is BAD? (Score:5, Interesting)
Does it matter? They're collecting information that they shouldn't be.
Would you be OK with a Mac sending Apple a list of all the files your user owns?
How about Linux sending the kernel developers your MAC and IP addresses (or traceroute)?
How about Windows sending Microsoft a list of all the search terms you've entered into Google? (via the TCP stack, not IE)
Since all 3 of these are OS-related, would you care if those got shuffled? (i.e. Windows sending Microsoft a list of all the files your user owns)
None of these hurt you in any way, yet I wouldn't want any of these situations happening.
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Re:Did it not occur to PALM that this is BAD? (Score:5, Funny)
How's the weather way, way, way, way down under the sand?
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Maybe they gave him a chocolate bar [slashdot.org] in exchange.
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Re:Did it not occur to PALM that this is BAD? (Score:5, Insightful)
VP of Marketing: "This is going to be great. Think of all the things we could do with this information. Think of all the people we could sell that information to. The feature stays."
Re:Did it not occur to PALM that this is BAD? (Score:5, Funny)
VP of Engineering: "Dude, they're going to find out, and they'll be pissed."
VP of Marketing: "This is going to be great. Think of all the things we could do with this information. Think of all the people we could sell that information to. The feature stays."
EVP of Marketing: "I eat boogers."
CMO: "Excellent work, EVP of Marketing. VP of Engineering, you're too cautious. You'll never make it in today's world."
CIO: "He's right. You're fired."
VP of Engineering: "It's all good, I already have two other jobs lined up. Later, losers."
EVP of Marketing: "Did I mention I eat my own boogers?"
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This just confirms to me that Palm Executives are just too dumb to live...
Sincerely,
A long-time Palm user (who still uses a Centro)
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This just confirms to me that Palm Executives are just too dumb to live...
Sincerely,
A long-time Palm user (who still uses a Centro)
Who's the stupid one here, the guy who runs the company that does dumb shit, or the guy who keeps using the products of the company run by the guy who does dumb shit to him?
Think about it.
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Of course, Palm is a bad company that has been making worse and worse products each year
However, I refuse to use a Windows Mobile product, there are no Android phones sold in my country and the Iphone is both inconvenient and expensive.
These days, I use my Palm Centro as an Ebook Reader/Phone/Calendar device
Palm had the pda market cornered and could have easily held on to the smartphone market if they hadn't made such braindead decisions...
Re:Did it not occur to PALM that this is BAD? (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:Did it not occur to PALM that this is BAD? (Score:4, Insightful)
And are we sure that none of the other phones do this?
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"Did Palm not think that someone would figure this out?"
Palm...Oh, that's the company that replaced all their American programmers with doods from India.
Guess not.....
Recommended sf reading: "Watermind" by M. M. Buckner
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Re:Did it not occur to PALM that this is BAD? (Score:5, Funny)
Your palm is not a chick, never was.
Re:Did it not occur to PALM that this is BAD? (Score:5, Funny)
I wonder what kind of backlash there will be about this and how much more negative impact it will have on the Palm brand.
Why, none of course...None at all, since Palm knows exactly where you were between noon and 1:00pm today, who you called, where she met you and also knows the phone number of your wife.
the fine print (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's see if you can find the trick in Palm's privacy policy:
Personal information is information directly identifiable to you, such as your name, address, email address, and phone number, as well as other non-public information associated with such information. Some examples of how we collect and use personal information include ... [ a list that sounds pretty safe and reasonable]
The operating word is Some examples: legally, they don't say that the list is exhaustive and that they don't collect information any other way. So the long list of nice looking collection is just a decoy!
--
FairSoftware.net [fairsoftware.net] -- iPhone dev jobs for geeks by geeks
Boycott (Score:5, Funny)
Ok, add them to the list.
Actually it's getting hard to keep track. Should we start a wiki?
Re:Boycott (Score:5, Funny)
I'll get back to you if I can think of one.
Re:Boycott (Score:4, Funny)
My local, family-owned grocery store has never screwed me over!
Oh wait, they did stop carrying that one delicious brand of pita bread. And the express lane is always too busy. And there's that ugly, no-name DVD rental kiosk in the entryway with MS Paint graphics.
Never mind, they suck.
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MS Paint graphics.
My God, your grocer is worse than Hitler.
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Well, there's the Duesenberg corporation... [wikipedia.org] Oh wait, you meant companies still in operation?
Never mind.
Re:Boycott (Score:5, Informative)
Closed source and closed hardware devices mean these little surprises will continue to happen.
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I think at this point, we should start a white list instead of a black list.
User Consent ... (Score:5, Informative)
This, of course, is without user consent or control.
But From Palm Infocenter, they say [palminfocenter.com]
Palm's own "Terms and Conditions" statement, along with their Privacy policy, detail that Palm basically maintains it has the right to indefinitely collect, process, store and share this information. Users must accept this multipage collection of fine-print waivers and disclaimers in full during the initial device setup process before being able to utilize the device.
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Users must accept this multipage collection of fine-print waivers and disclaimers in full during the initial device setup process before being able to utilize the device.
It was in the basement!
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... has the right to indefinitely collect, process, store and share this information
Except that this is not legal in a number of countries; can we assume that they only collect info where it is legal to do so?
Uncool (Score:5, Interesting)
I read the privacy policy [palm.com] and it doesn't really seem like it's built to cover this kind of snooping.
And then there's this:
You may choose whether or not to provide your personal information to us. If you choose not to do so, you can continue to interact with Palm, but you may not be able to take advantage of certain products, services, offers, or options that depend on personal information.
So is there a website or a setting on the Pre to disable this thing. TFA seems to say there isn't.
I mean, there's utility in understanding how people are using your device. But not letting your users know you're uploading daily usage stats and not giving them a way to turn it off?
Truly Uncool.
Settings to disable (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Settings to disable (Score:5, Informative)
So FWIW, I have "Background Data Collection" set to off, that did not stop the Pre sending those logs to Palm. I'm sure that that switch does prevent sending your location info to the Google, which makes it doubly unsettling that it's still sent to Palm, no?
Apps installed OK, crashes OK, location - HELL NO! (Score:5, Interesting)
OK, I can see sending what applications are installed and what crashes have occurred given the user's explicit permission - I allow my Ubuntu boxes to participate in the "popularity contest" wherein what apps I install are (anonymously) logged, and I will frequently send crash reports to help get the cause of the crash fixed.
In both of those cases *I* decide if it happens, and I was informed of the data being uploaded.
But automatically reporting my GPS locations - HELL NO!!!
Yes, the Pre is a phone - as such it MUST, BY LAW be able to report its location to 911 (here in the US, natch). My phone (which is NOT a Pre) has been configured to turn GPS off for anything OTHER than E911. If I found out that it was NOT abiding by that selection - that it was sending position data to anyone other than E911 - then not only would I be terminating my cell contract, I would be filing suit against the makers of the phone AND the cell carrier.
Again, I can see why Palm would want apps installed and crash data - but WHAT DAMN BUSINESS is it of theirs to know position?!?!
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Re:Apps installed OK, crashes OK, location - HELL (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, it's the cellular companies that want that data more. By having the phones report back on position and cell tower ID strengths, they can more easily map "dead zones" in their coverage areas, telling them where to put new towers to hit the most people.
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To see if the issue is related to the towers you are connecting to.
Which they get by the cellular infrastructure backhaul, rather than by GPS.
Won't they ever learn? (Score:2, Informative)
You know, that total control of their users and the things they can and can't do. Apple should not control their users like that, it's just...
Oh wait, you mean someone else than Apple is doing that?
Damn you Microsoft, always controlling your users....
Oh wait, you mean it's neither Apple or Microsoft?
So, you zealots who always bash on Apple and Microsoft... what FUD will you say to protect your precious Palm now? And wasn't Google's Android doing something similar too?
The solution is easy: get a cellphone th
Slashdot Exercise Time! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Slashdot Exercise Time! (Score:4, Funny)
In the spirit of blaming Apple for Palm's misbehavior with their iTunes stunt please respond here with how this is also Apples fault.
I'll give it a shot: There's an app for that!"
I digress.
- xserv
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Really? What does this iDigress app do?!
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Ah, the resident Apple fanboys. Always so defensive. Clearly this story has nothing to do with Apple, and nobody has suggested that it does.
Now I'm pretty well distanced from the Palm-iTunes shenanigans, not owning any portable music player nor running an OS that iTunes supports. I think there's a pretty narrow range of belief systems that could lead to the conclusion that Palm's behavior is worse than Apple's in that case. First, if you believe that vertical monopolies are generally a good thing, and t
Dear Palm (Score:2)
This being said, I would hope that you would have the courtesy of asking me to opt-in, rather than assuming that you own my usage habits.
TFA Text (Score:5, Informative)
Woops, looks like /. is hammering the server. Here's a copy of the text (as of now):
After all the concerns about privacy today... (Score:2)
What idiot thought doing this without user opt-in was a good idea?
article on precentral.net (soon to be slashdotted) (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.precentral.net/fyi-pre-reports-your-location-palm [precentral.net]
When PreCentral's people asked Palm about this, their official statement to them in part was:
Our goal has been to follow industry best practices on data collection, use, and encryption. Like most EULAs and privacy policies, though, the terms tend to get pretty detailed about potential scenarios. And because the terms are meant to notify users about all possible variations, we wanted to err on the side of over notifying rather than under notifying users through the terms of use. So there's really nothing here "beyond the norm" for a EULA or privacy policy.
The provision you've quoted explains why Palm might collect user information. For example, we collect and transmit users' email addresses, email content, contact lists, etc. to provide WebOS services such as back-up and restore for the purpose of backing up that data and helping users restore the data if needed (in that case, it would not be limited to just the email address collected at registration). If users someday make purchases on their device through the Apps Catalog, then we would also collect payment information to process the transaction.
At all times, we'd be strictly bound by our privacy policy. Our privacy policy, like virtually all others in the industry, contemplate our using data to provide services users have requested, improve our products and services (hence the reference to Palm's own "sales and marketing" in the privacy policy), troubleshoot, etc. We also refer to affiliates because Palm is a global company, and we may need to transmit data from our European subsidiary to the parent company. We're obviously not a conglomerate with many different subs and affiliates, but the terms specifically mention subs and affiliates so that we can comply with European data protection laws that require us to spell out that data collected by a European sub can be transmitted to another part of the company.
Well, this sucks if your a Canadian (Score:5, Insightful)
But my god, what was Palm thinking? Disappointing.
Re:Well, this sucks if your a Canadian (Score:4, Insightful)
THAT's the part you think sucks?
Personally, I'm glad we have a government that sees this kind of thing as a problem as opposed to an, uh, opportunity.
They've busted it now (Score:3, Interesting)
If this is true, it strikes at the very heart of the products saleability. The pre is quite the phone in geek worlds, which unfortunatly for them, tend to be the ones that care about stuff like this!
By doing this they have alienated a real core market that could have made the Pre a good geek phone rather than a has been phone.
Hack it! (Score:3, Insightful)
So why not hack the thing so it sends what you want it to send? Somewhere innocuous, somewhere whimsical, or just random locations. You could have fun with this.
"Yes, I really was at the North Pole yesterday. And in Paris the day before. Isn't air travel great!"
...laura
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Please, can I have my pretty, shiny leash, please? It offers me so much Freedom!
Re:Yea, and.... (Score:5, Insightful)
My Motorola i776 is GPS-enabled, but when it was stolen, Boost Mobile said they couldn't use the feature to find my phone. Probably because they get a cut of the hundred bucks it cost me to replace it.
Re:Yea, and.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Yea, and.... (Score:5, Funny)
Isn't it great how the courts can ask Motorola where you are but you can't?
You just need to sue yourself and then ask Motorola for the location of your phone so that you can serve legal documents to yourself.
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Actually, I wonder if you could sue a John Doe for stealing your phone, and then subpoena the current GPS info from the carrier in order to prosecute...
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They are dismantling our society, in case you didn't notice. Honest police work is punished when directed at lower and lowest-class OR upper and top-class people while nickel-and-diming of middle class is encouraged.
It's proles and untouchables vs. we the people.
Re:Yea, and.... (Score:5, Informative)
"Hell, I thought all phones did this anyway"
Running the GPS on a phone eats up the battery, I wouldn't assume any phone company would be purposefully sabotaging the battery life of its own products to piss off its customers.
And tracking of cell phones has come up in the past, and is generally quite controversial: http://www.insidetech.com/news/articles/2299-controversial-study-tracks-movement-via-cellphones [insidetech.com]
I honestly don't know why Palm thought it could get away with it without some outrage. Especially when it has such a steep hill ahead of it already.
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Running the GPS on a phone eats up the battery, I wouldn't assume any phone company would be purposefully sabotaging the battery life of its own products to piss off its customers.
You may already realize this, but for clarity's sake: GPS isn't needed to track phones. They can be tracked simply from their signal as long as there are multiple towers within range to receive it. So probably in any city you can be tracked.
And tracking of cell phones has come up in the past, and is generally quite controversia
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If the two towers measure and report your distance (using turnaround time adjustments to your cellphone to fit it into the Rx time slot) they can put you on one of two points - one of which can be eliminated by antenna pattern.
If the two towers can't accurately measure your distance but CAN agree on timing for measuring the moment of their reception of your signal, they can put you on a constant-distance-difference hyperbola between them, ala classic LORAN.
I think the ones typically deployed these days can
Re:Oh no! Automated Dr. Watson (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, because GPS coordinates are really relevant to crash data...
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That would depend on the programs running at the time, wouldn't it? After all, some do use the GPS coordinates, so it is reasonable that some have a bug in how they do so...
Devils advocate (Score:2)
They may be if the crash is in a location based application...
Just sayin'. We need more detail on what the crash logs were from.
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Yeah, because GPS coordinates are really relevant to crash data...
Sure. This is a mobile unit, so if there is a locus of crashes at a particular location, that might indicate that the problem is with the link to the local access point. It's perfectly reasonable that this is data that they'd want for debugging. (And they'd also like to get the same information from systems that don't crash, so they can say "well, other Palms have accessed from that spot with no problem, so it's not the local node).
Just because they want (or think that perhaps sometime in the future the
Re:Oh no! Automated Dr. Watson (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Oh no! Automated Dr. Watson (Score:5, Informative)
It's not just crash data. It sends that too, but it also uploads your GPS coordinates daily along with the app use data (what you've used and for how long) according to TFA. It's customer profiling, not bug testing.
Re:Oh no! Automated Dr. Watson (Score:4, Interesting)
Google did this specifically in Google Maps Mobile well before they rolled out the "find my location" support in it.
In early Google Maps Mobile versions, if you had GPS support, it would include the GPS coordinates and the "visible" cell tower IDs and strengths in every request back to Google. They used this data to improve their location service (by getting GPS data on where the cell towers were) before rolling it out to the public. That's how they got the location service to work even on phones without GPS data, it uses the cell tower signal strengths to guess at where you are.
The data is still sent by Google Maps Mobile on any phone that supports it.
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Where's the hyperbolic and inflammatory blurb?
I only get paid to attack particular businesses and politicians.
I'm sure the hell not going to bother to attack someone else for free. Someone has to pay for it.
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Er, I think you just supplied it...
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Where are the fanboys defending this stupidity? Oh, wait, it isn't an Apple product.
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Your comment is super behind the times. The Pre is a slick little device, and easily stands with other moderm smartphones.
Including in the "violate user's privacy" space, it seems.
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Probably that the cell companies would rather that you access the internet from your cell phone via their expensive cellular data plans than be able to get around that by using a nearby WiFi access point.
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There were also a couple of PalmOS 5 devices that had built-in WiFi notably the Tungsten TX and the LifeDrive.
Re:1984 (Score:5, Insightful)
Hmmm, lets see how accurate 1984 is in this case:
An ultra-facist, ultra controlling government that...
1) Watches, analyzes, and controls your every move to identify possible revolutionaries.
2) Controls all commerce and businesses
3) Outlaws sex for pleasure (even with your spouse)
4) Convinces children to rat on their own parents.
5) Uses constant warefare, drugs, and pornography to subdue the masses
6) Re-writes history to suit its present needs
7) Tortures and/or kills anyone who resists it
8) Encourages (forces?) racism and nationalism to the point of incoherent rage in every citizen.
versus a private company that...
1) Retrieves information when your phone software crashes
Sorry, I'm just not seeing it.
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Or you could see them as self-fulfilling. Who's to say that they would even have thought of such things without the fiction giving them the idea?
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No, that's not the case. A GSM phone will only call in every few hours; when it is switched on or off; when it needs to call out or send an SMS; when it is asked to call in; or when or when it moves between areas covered by different MSC/VLRs. An MSC/VLR covers a large area of a country with thousands of base stations. The bit about "asked to call in" is interesting. The network knows that the handset is in the area covered by an MSC/VLR, but not where, so it broadcasts a request for contact over the base