Wikipedia Censored To Protect Captive Reporter 414
AI writes with a story from the NY Times about a 7-month-long effort, largely successful, to keep news of a Times reporter's kidnapping off of Wikipedia. The Christian Science Monitor, the reporter David Rohde's previous employer, takes a harder look at the issues of censorship and news blackout, linking to several blogs critical of Wikipedia's actions. Rohde escaped from a Taliban compound, along with his translator, on Saturday. "For seven months, The New York Times managed to keep out of the news the fact that one of its reporters, David Rohde, had been kidnapped by the Taliban. But that was pretty straightforward compared with keeping it off Wikipedia. ... A dozen times, user-editors posted word of the kidnapping on Wikipedia's page on Mr. Rohde, only to have it erased. Several times the page was frozen, preventing further editing — a convoluted game of cat-and-mouse that clearly angered the people who were trying to spread the information of the kidnapping... The sanitizing was a team effort, led by Jimmy Wales, co-founder of Wikipedia, along with Wikipedia administrators and people at The Times."
why (Score:2, Interesting)
what was the purpose of censoring the information? was it in order to not give the Taliban any news time or was it an attempt to hide the hideous things the Taliban does in an effort to not bolster cries to rid us of them once and for all?
It seems to me that this is more political then anything.
To keep him alive. (Score:5, Insightful)
If Rohde became a cause celebre, the people holding him might be tempted to do a Daniel Pearl style execution for the publicity.
Re:To keep him alive. (Score:5, Insightful)
If Rohde became a cause celebre, the people holding him might be tempted to do a Daniel Pearl style execution for the publicity.
That may very well be the case -- but your rationale is not specific to kidnapped journalists. The real question here, which should be addressed to both Wikipedia and the New York Times is: why censor news regarding this particular kidnapping, when your general policy is the exact opposite, of detailed reporting on every kidnapping case you hear about?
I find the news of Mr. Wales officially participating in the cover-up quite disturbing. Wikimedia foundation simply does not have the resources to police Wikipedia in this way for all alleged victims of crime. Thus, why were Wikipedia resources spent on this particular case?
Re:To keep him alive. (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, while I'm not sure it's applicable to this incident, I do remember a few years back when news and details about a Canadian aid worker who was kidnapped was kept quiet. In that particular case, it was because he had a husband back home waiting for him... They decided that it was better to suppress the information than risk the taliban beheading him for no reason other than he was gay.
It could also have been because they didn't want him to become a celebrity. They may have felt that he was kidnapped in the hopes of making headlines, and getting publicity for their cause. Deny them that publicity, and eventually they might give up and let him go.
*shrugs* we don't know at the moment, and we may never know, but there's two very good reasons to suppress the information.
Re:To keep him alive. (Score:5, Insightful)
In the past tense it would be interesting to hear that it had happened but I see no real reason to be incensed that you didn't hear about it while it was happening.
I assume that the Times requested this and from time to time it is the humanitarian thing to do. You have no "right" to know, I hate it when the public's "right" to know is touted because it is a fiction at best.
Re:To keep him alive. (Score:5, Insightful)
I would ask why we care that Wikipedia didn't print the current location and status of a reporter when it is neither germain to the rest of the information about him nor of particular immediate interest.
You seem to miss the point: this isn't about my right to "know". This is about the way Wikipedia works. The Wikimedia foundation is normally not in the business of writing an encyclopaedia. They are in the business of managing a large number of free-lance contributors who actually write the articles. When the NYT management decides not to write about something, they send all employees a memo. They don't mind the employees knowing what it's all about -- it should just stay out of the paper. Obviously Wikimedia couldn't send a memo "please don't report on this person's kidnapping". Instead, they actively edited the article to reflect their editorial judgement. This is unusual exactly because they don't normally edit the articles. They arrange for hosting, write the software, determine project-wide editorial policies and resolve disputes. But they don't actually write encyclopaedia entries. Wikipedia would never have gotten off the group if these people were the ones to write the articles, and today the project will grind to a halt if Wikimedia staff has to personally police various articles which concern various ongoing emergencies.
Again: this isn't about our right to know. This is about Wikimedia putting an effort to help this particular person, where it's clear that they cannot help everyone equally situated. It may be wise to adpot a project-wide policy: "no mention of kidnappings while they are ongoing" and leave the actual implementations to the editors and admins. It would be foolish to rely on Foundation staff to try to implement such a policy alone.
Re:To keep him alive. (Score:5, Insightful)
If none of the media were reporting the story, then how could such information in an article ever pass [[WP:V]] [wikipedia.org] ?
Wikipedia is not rumorpedia or spread-stuff-from-the-blogosphere-pedia
It's an encyclopedia, and well-documented reliable secondary sources are required for information to be posted.
Original research is unacceptable on WP, as a matter of course.
And so is anything that doesn't have a source with a good reputation for fact checking to back it up.
When it comes to articles about living people, the policies are very strict; uncited information that might have some negative aspect (e.g. about alleged kidnappers or kidnapping), must be removed unless cited.
Re:To keep him alive. (Score:4, Informative)
Don't start me on Verifiability. It's a variable bar, which moves up and down with the motives of the contributor. And "Verifiability, Not Truth!" - ye gods.
Re:To keep him alive. (Score:5, Insightful)
Honestly, the right response is to that assertion is to find a second reliable source, if the report is that controversial, and valuable, there should be multiple solid sources to back it up, under normal circumstances.
The posting of one news agency could be in error.
Re:To keep him alive. (Score:5, Insightful)
So, it was brought to their attention and they were asked to help. They were able to help so they did. It disgusts me that some people think that is somehow an injustice.
Re:To keep him alive. (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm saying that if you're a human being and someone asks for help, it's not something to be criticized if you help. You're saying journalists are scum and should suffer because they'd do the same - and you talk of prejudice? I didn't say help them because they're journalists - I'm saying help them because they're human beings.
Re:To keep him alive. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:To keep him alive. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:To keep him alive. (Score:5, Insightful)
Then the answer is "because they didn't want to give the Taliban what it was trying to get." God you idiots can be so pedantic. There is nothing to see here; move along.
Re:To keep him alive. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm going to agree with AC parent here. Although we don't necessarily know what the Taliban wanted, the act of keeping his profile low certainly didn't result in a bad ending for him. If news broke out that he had been captured, and there were a public outcry, we don't know what would have happened.
In this case, there was benevolent intent behind the censorship. I have no problem with that sort of action as long as the people are really trying to do the right thing. If they were covering it up to cover their own arses, then I'd certainly have a problem. I do find it very funny that the user in Florida who continuously tried to re-post the story thought he was being blocked because he wasn't believed. If he had some sort of user information, they could've told him, "Hey, this is really sensitive, let it go for now" a long time ago...
I guess I'm more for having people identify themselves when submitting "information" so it can be verified. But yes, I also understand the need for some info to be anonymous.
Re:To keep him alive. (Score:5, Insightful)
That's a little too wishy washy for me. Censors universally think they're acting for the public good.
I happen to think that in this particular case the censorship was acceptable, but I need a better justification than (a)see it worked out ok, or (b) they were trying to do the right thing.
I'd state the justification more like this: When at least one person's life is likely to be put in danger directly resulting from publication, and when the material censored doesn't have substantial cultural significance, media outlets are not ethically required to report the story, but neither are they ethically obligated to repress the story.
Re:To keep him alive. (Score:5, Insightful)
I see nothing to that effect anywhere, and even the taliban is smart enough to know: you don't kidnap a REPORTER if your intent is to keep it silent. They wanted this to be a huge news story.
And conversely, if the Taliban kidnaps a random foreigner, they're a lot less likely to behead him and post it on YouTube if they don't know that he's actually a well known reporter. They're trying for maximum exposure and shock response per unit effort. A media storm centred on the guy would play right into their hands.
So yes, if the news had got out the terrorists would have won. Literally.
Re: (Score:2)
I have mixed feelings about this. I understand the need to prevent any harm to the reporter, on the other hand we know now that Wikipedia can't ever be considered an unbiased source. (If it ever could, but that's another debate)
It's one thing not to publish something, it's another thing to remove something published.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Do you have an example of anything ever written in any part of the world that could be considered a unbiased source
Sure, it's 77 degrees (F) at 11:41 pm and the sun has set for the day here.
IMHO this is a case where the means (temporary suppression of information) totally justified the end (a live reporter)
Yes, the ends justified the means, and all it cost was the last of Wikipedia's integrity.
Re:To keep him alive. (Score:5, Funny)
Degrees (F)? - Carefull your bias toward the US audience is showing.
Re: (Score:2)
These days, I wouldn't be surprised if it was entirely unintentional. Wikipedia has a very bad habit lately of marking just about anything for deletion, and for making it impossible to contribute without holding exactly the same view of reality as the core (read: constantly unemployed and constantly watching) team.
the blackout was a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
By keeping the secret, they may have kept him alive long enough for him to escape.
You may call it censorship, I call it protecting the life of a journalist.
Or, since I DNRTFA, I could be completely off base. But I did read about this kidnapping previously, and I think I'm on track here. Plus I slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
You dont censor the truth in this manner. I am VERY disappointed in wikipedia's stance on this. They should be COMPLETELY impartial. Either you represent facts or you have interests, choose wisely wikipedia. I had no idea that the people who run wikipedia actively changed stories for political ends.
Re:the blackout was a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
I had no idea that the people who run wikipedia actively changed stories for political ends.
How is keeping a journalist alive "political ends"?
Re:the blackout was a good idea (Score:5, Funny)
It's obviously a pro-life bias.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:the blackout was a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes. They firmly believe in your right to choose between radical Islam and death.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
He was a 'political' prisoner of the Taliban, lies were actively purported to achieve an end. Active omission of facts is a lie and is unacceptable from a source of information that views itself as factual. Wikipedia should have absolutely no interest in a story beyond the facts presented.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Keep that in mind when spire3661 decides to become a reporter and gets kidnapped by the Taliban.
Re:the blackout was a good idea (Score:4, Insightful)
That's easy to say when it isn't the life of your father or brother or son at stake. I absolutely agree that Wikipedia should be interested only in facts but like any principle, there are situations worthy of an exception. In this case, I don't think the timely publishing of the event was all that valuable, especially in comparison to the potential downside of publishing it.
Perhaps you no longer trust Wikipedia. Personally I'm not particularly bothered by this as the truth has come out.
Re:the blackout was a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
So are you complaining that in this instance the people working at a repository of information chose NOT to be callous and indifferent? Are you also trying to argue that Wikipedia is a member of the press or government? I suppose if you used a loose enough definition of "the press" you could include Wikipedia in it (keeping in mind that the owners and the contributes are rarely one in the same.) Of course, such a broad definition is rendered so utterly meaningless that trying to ascribe to its members duties, principals, or "a job" is fairly sanctimonious and conceited.
Even if you've found some of their behavior to be irresponsible in the past you can not simultaneously decry that previous behavior and their decision to err on the side of caution when it came to this story. The manner in which you and others are attempting to point out what you perceive to be hypocrisy rings as rather hypocritical itself.
Don't misunderstand - I'm not saying you are wrong to argue that news outlets can by inconsistent or even outright hypocritical. I'm saying that you, and others here, seeming to be simultaneously decrying both the idea of a journalist's "duty to the truth" and the idea of "responsible reporting." You attempt to attack them for failing to stick to a particular principal while you yourself attempt to maintain ambivalence.
You can not bemoan the hypocrisy of the press, and non-press information repositories like Wikipedia, while you yourself seem unable to take a real side at the issue at hand. How can you fault them for being unable to choose a principal when you don't seem to have any hard and fast ones as far as these issues go?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You do realise that there's plenty of times when there have been perfectly good reasons to lie, either by omission, or by outright misleading statements?
At the risk of invoking Godwin's law, perhaps the most blatant example would be the bombing of Coventry. The allies had advance knowledge of the November 14, 1940 bombing raid planned on Coventry, but chose to do nothing about it. They knew that people would die in the raid, (we don't actually know how many, but somewhere between 500-1000 people died), but
Re:the blackout was a good idea (Score:5, Informative)
At the risk of invoking Godwin's law, perhaps the most blatant example would be the bombing of Coventry.
Good example...except that it did not happen [bbc.co.uk].
Re:the blackout was a good idea (Score:5, Funny)
I died in the bombing of Coventry, you insensitive clod!
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
That night Churchill cancelled his scheduled trip out of london and remained in the city....
Re:Wikipedia Page (Score:4, Informative)
Re:the blackout was a good idea (Score:4, Insightful)
Frankly, given that reporters often report information that puts others in danger without a second thought, I see no reason why the same should not apply to them.
No keeping a reporter alive does NOT trump the publics right to know.
Re:the blackout was a good idea (Score:4, Insightful)
You have no reason to believe that this guy is a hypocrite beyond the fact that he's a journalist. Yet you're willing to make him "accountable" for the hypocrisy of other journalists.
Re:the blackout was a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course Wikipedia should have an interest in the story beyond the mere facts presented. They need to worry about copyright and tort liability for example. That kills your argument.
What you probably meant to say is that Wikipedia should have no MORAL interest in the story beyond the mere facts presented. Fortunately, many people (including Mr. Wales)do not agree with you.
When you balance the risk of a single human life in this particular case against one website's terms of use policy, the decision isn't very hard.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:the blackout was a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Or you get out of an imaginary dream world and realize that your choices affect the lives of others and that sometimes the idealistic option is not the right one. If not getting someone killed is a "political end," then I'm 100% in favor of their actions.
Furthermore, Wikipedia aims to be an encyclopedia, not a news outlet. It's not at all obvious that there's a conflict in restraining information for a temporary period. Have you noticed that they tend to clamp down pretty freely on articles that are hot news topics, such as celebrity deaths?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
This is a VERY slippery slope you are on and I for one do NOT find that wikipedia should be in the suppression of information business, even temporarily. It goes very much against the grain of what many view wikipedia to be. Wikipedia is very much a social network and would do well not to undermine people's confidence in it, since WE provide the content.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:the blackout was a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Freedom is great.
With it comes responsibility.
If exercising that responsibility through editorial actions in a case where a real human being's life is in real danger of being ended is unacceptable to your view of what Wikipedia should be, then I am profoundly thankful that you are not running Wikipedia. Information wants to be free, but this man's family and friends want him to come home safely. One of those is more important.
Anarchy is a slippery slope as well, as this case illustrates.
Re:the blackout was a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think this case is the beginning of any of a slippery slope, especially since all involved were private groups. Maybe it is a bit questionable that Jimbo was involved, but he's been involved in a lot worse which no one ever talks about. What unnerves me is people who think like you, making these sort of statements without seeing how they have already been abused. If there is a slippery slope, you're sliding down it.
Also, anarchy is NOT a slippery slope. Everything in history points to the idea that from anarchy arises order. The existence of government today points to that fact, unless you're religious. That is why it is far better to err on the side of anarchy than to err on the side of fascism.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Simple answer: it never could be [wikitruth.info].
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
All of which is so easy to say when neither you nor anyone you love stands to be the person who suffers most.
Would you be in such a rush to publish if it were your wife, son, daughter, mother, father or whatever? Knowing that you'd be giving the publicity to actual terrorists and likely signing the death warrant of your loved one?
I'd bet a vast amount of money that you'd cave on your principles, especially when strict adherence to them gives the kidnappers precisely what they want.
Get off your soapbox and c
Re:the blackout was a good idea (Score:4, Insightful)
Freedom of speech does not include the right to force others to say what you want them to say. Freedom of speech includes the right to not speak.
So maybe the suppression of facts is a "lie", but that's not immoral by itself especially since the purpose was to protect a life. Absolutely no one out there has a vested in interest in getting this information and no one is harmed by not having this information. And of course as we see, the information is now available, it was merely delayed.
Also, last I checked, Wikipedia is not a news outlet anyway. Why should they "report" this information? Neither is it a public bulletin board.
Re:the blackout was a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
NO!
CENSORSHIP can be done by ANYBODY.
It is just usually more legal if done by a private organization.
Re:the blackout was a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, the reporter is kidnapped. You know what his captors want? Publicity for their campaign
And how is that different from any other person that gets kidnapped and that the newspapers report on?
I'll tell you: it's only different because it's a reporter has been kidnapped. When it's a doctor, politician, priest, baby, nun, lawyer, businessman, girl, or oil worker, they smear it all over the front pages and milk it for all it's worth.
I find this double standard pretty disgusting.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:the blackout was a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
I personally don't mind a little restraint from news outlets. However, as in this case, the driving force seems to be self-motivated instead of a consistent policy. This same organization has a history of doing just the opposite when it isn't a reporter. And will likely continue to do so. It's this level of hypocrisy I have contempt for. I don't respect people or organizations that don't follow their own supposed moral code, period.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:the blackout was a good idea (Score:5, Informative)
That's a pretty good catch-22, if he wasn't a Pulitzer winning Journalist, his kidnapping would have been as newsworthy a purse snatching in NY.
Re:the blackout was a good idea (Score:4, Informative)
Do you imagine that the kidnappers of those Americans didn't seek the massive news attention to their actions?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Captives are kept alive for as long as they have value. A captive that nobody knows has been kidnapped has no value.
I really don't want my 15 minutes of fame if it gets me killed.
Let's stop putting the blame in the wrong place. It's not Wikipedia or the NYT killing the hostage, it is the Taliban kidnappers. Terrorists kill for reasons only they fully understand. Blaming NYT is like blaming the people ridi
Re:the blackout was a good idea (Score:4, Interesting)
Amnesty saves captives' lives by the very principle of spreading information of their capture, and has been doing so for a very long time. I suspect this has little to do with saving the captive's life, and more to do with a newspaper deciding it knows how to control the media, and probably should for their employee/friend's sake, without taking the time to think about whether it's actually the right course of action. Ironic for a newspaper to believe in censoring information.
Re:the blackout was a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Captives who are not public figures are very different from captives who are. The reasons for abducting them are different, the gains from how the captivity is ended are very different.
An organisation like the Taliban has little to gain from killing a nobody -- and public attention to the fate of that captive provides a disincentive to spare their life. The threat of reprisal, etc, if there is public attention, is simply too great for them to off some random person. Killing a public persona -- that's a different matter. Then the gains from killing them may outweigh the risk of reprisal, etc.
Re:the blackout was a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Why don't you think of some examples then spend half a second thinking about how those examples might be different from this situation? Amnesty typically shines a light on governments. Governments, by their very nature, are subject to political pressure as they often depend to some degree on the goodwill of other nations. Freelancing militants? Not so much.
Double Standard (Score:5, Insightful)
There should be standards. Either kidnapping stories are reported widely, or they are not. I see no reason for journalists to have lives of more inherent value than anyone else. This would be like doctors giving preferential treatment to other doctors (eg. less waiting time in countries with socialized medicine) or teachers distributing textbooks only to the children of other teachers. This is not to say that it doesn't happen, but it is profoundly wrong.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
I wonder how many of those public statements about kidnaps are in the new because parents, family members or friends push for it to be there while the more kidnap savvy reporters know it will only hurt their efforts for safe release/escape of their friend.
Re: (Score:2)
Professional courtesy is a very common thing in all areas.
News will blackout information for all sorts of reasons. You never hear the names of rape victims or child criminals/victims either. And the government makes requests and threats all the time.
Re:Double Standard (Score:5, Insightful)
News will blackout information for all sorts of reasons. You never hear the names of rape victims or child criminals/victims either.
But it's "never hear the names of rape victims", not "do hear the names of rape victims, unless they're related to someone who works at a newspaper - then we hold their name secret". I don't think people would be having as much of a problem with this if it was the principle of "never report the name of a kidnapping victim". The "double standard" referred to in the subject line is the impression that a newspaper will happily report on a soldier, doctor, or politician which gets kidnapped, but screams bloody murder if someone else reports that a journalist is in the same situation.
I also don't think people have a problem with any individual news site deciding that some shlub reporter from the Times getting kidnapped shouldn't be reported on, it's when they start to force third parties like Wikipedia to kowtow to their wishes that people start to get upset.
Re:Double Standard (Score:4, Insightful)
In many cases, journalists are taken specifically for their connection to the media. Whereas other kidnapping may simply be for intimidation or money, a journalist is captured for their perceived value in communicating with the outside world. Infomation blackout is also more protection for not just that journalist, but other reporters in that region.
While the "media fraternity" is a very real aspect of the business -as every profession gives a certain amount of preference to its own members- I don't think its fair to say that they ignore other valuable stories related to hostage taking or kidnapping. However, the struggle to suppress information plays out in a more public forum (the terrorist trying to spread his message and the media and law enforcement trying to get their reporter back) than if the terrorists/kidnappers were talking to a private individual or family. Which is exactly what this story is about.
Does Wikipedia have a certain policy regarding "news" vs. matters of record that are not "news"? I haven't read Wikipedia's article policy completely but it seems like now would be a good time to try and create a buffer between news reporting and the collection of historical fact (as close as one can be). Wikipedia's goal is to be comprehensive, not exactly the most immediate source of information. Plus it would cut down on people trying to be the "Firstie" to report major news in a secondary outlet like an encyclopedia.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
his would be like doctors giving preferential treatment to other doctors (eg. less waiting time in countries with socialized medicine) or teachers distributing textbooks only to the children of other teachers. This is not to say that it doesn't happen, but it is profoundly wrong.
Sadly, the doctors' preferential treatment happens all the time here in Uruguay, where medicine is being more and more socialized (they wanted a level playing field... and the current government are leveling down :( ). You absolutely must know a doctor, or a political figure, or you'll have 2,3 or 4 months wait period to see a specialist (say, a dermatologist). Unless you pay one of the soon-to-be-outlawed US style health insurances, which are expensive by local standards (upwards of 100 USD/month plus some
Hypocrites (Score:5, Insightful)
They'd gladly blab about a kidnapping if it wasn't one of their own. It does, after all, sell newspapers.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Citation please?
Re:Hypocrites (Score:5, Informative)
The New York Times gladly hid behind the 1st Amendment and blabbed about a 100% legal, effective and yet secret means to track terrorist money around the globe, yet clammed up when it was their hide on the line.
Hypocrites.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You might or might not be right that this was something they ought not have published, but it's not the same situation. Jailbrekr claimed they'd have published the information if this guy didn't work for them.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
newspapers capable and willing to censor (Score:5, Insightful)
What kind of bullshit argument is it that news coverage would increase the reporter's value and make negotiations more difficult? When do newspapers show that kind of consideration to other people? Do they keep other people out of the news because it inconveniences them or puts the at risk? Safety trumps freedom of speech? Since when? Only when one reporter is doing something for another, apparently.
What this story really shows again is that newspapers are corrupt: they are capable of censoring the news, and they will do so if it benefits the companies or the people working there. Furthermore, they have enough leverage to influence sites like Wikipedia.
We need to find ways of disseminating the news free from censorship, whether by Iranian madmen or self-serving American news organizations.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You're getting off-topic.
What you should be asking yourself is: is it ethical to withhold information to the public, when the release of said information will cause more harm than good?
And if you truly believe that "Information wants to be Free", are you willing to die for that belief? Are you willing to sacrifice a person's life? Does that person have a say in the matter?
Re: (Score:2)
The biggest problem in this from my perspective, is that the traditional media was able to influence an open effort on the web to keep this censored.
No, they were able to influence an effort on a single web site, with the cooperation of the site's owner and administrators, to keep it censored. That's not difficult at all.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, when the choice comes down to democracy vs safety, I choose democracy.
It's easy to choose between someone else's safety and your perceived rights within a democracy. (NOte that I still don't see how you have a "right" to this information; in the same way you don't have a "right" to information about troop movements.)
But here, the problem is a double standard: newspapers keeping information about a kidnapped reporter quiet, while reporting on many other hostages.
Well, that's the thing - as I've mentioned elsewhere, I've been looking for cases where the newspaper is reporting on other hostages and the act of reporting on them places them in further danger, and I am coming up blank. As a result, I'm not seeing the double
An interesting Lesson (Score:3, Insightful)
Hmm, now we walk a fine line. Who do we trust to censor something in order to preserve human life and yet won't misuse their power to instill their own will?
Disgusted (Score:2, Insightful)
Un-friggin-real.
Of course, now that the media outlets have revealed their little secret, you can bet the terrorists wi
I have no problem with this (Score:5, Insightful)
I believe strongly in free speech, especially on Wikipedia (I am a semi-active editor there). But this wasn't really Wikipedia's domain. Wikipedia is not a newspaper (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_is_not_a_newspaper [wikipedia.org]). It's not the job of Wikipedia to report on someone's life until reliable news sources have already done so. In other words, Wikipedia should never contain breaking news.
MOD PARENT UP (Score:2)
This is exactly right.
Furthermore, the policy statement, Wikipedia is not censored [wikipedia.org], should be read carefully.
It doesn't refer to absolute freedom to put anything into Wikipedia. Indeed, it is part of a long and venerable policy page which defines what content should not go into Wikipedia, Wikipedia's "editorial policy" if you like.
"Wikipedia is not censored" covers only the limited issue of "offensive" content, such as profanity or explicit sexual material. It says that "'being objectionable' is generally n
Re: (Score:2)
SO stick your head in the sand because the big boys are ACTIVELY suppressing a story? good plan.....
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
What defines 'breaking news'?
Obama was listed on Wikipedia as "sworn in" two minutes after he took the oath of office. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Barack_Obama&oldid=265312210 [wikipedia.org]
This guy was kidnapped for 7 months, and it was still considered breaking news at that point?
Re:I have no problem with this (Score:5, Insightful)
Obama was listed on Wikipedia as "sworn in" two minutes after he took the oath of office.
In an event that was broadcast live by every possible medium and media outlet...
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I believe "breaking news" means you are the first to report the news story, i.e. "break" that story. In the case of Obama's inauguration, its moot because everyone knew about it at the same time - it was a scheduled event.
Wikipedia, an encyclopedia (which is generally a secondary or tertiary source), cannot report on events like a news source does. It has to cite a news source and establish that the news source has been reliable in the past and can be trusted. This is often a slow process.
Re: (Score:2)
Besides, doesn't freedom of speech also mean you're allowed to choose not
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, that worked so well for Maggie Thatcher...Oh wait.
Well, maybe for Israel? Oh no, Fatah and the PLO stopped using terrorism after Israel started negotiating.
History is not on the side of your assertion, it appears.
Mart
This was not censorship. (Score:4, Insightful)
Just so you guys have the facts on this one, the closest definition of 'censorship that pertains to this subject can be found under 'censor'
2. a.2.a transf. One who exercises official or officious supervision over morals and conduct.
This doesn't fall under that category, or any similar category. The Times wasn't conspiring to hide the information for their benefit, or because of judgement as to it's morality or offensiveness. They did it to protect the reporter.
As a citizen, or NYT subscriber, or Wikipedia contributor, you have no right as to the status of the reporters' personal situation. Just because something has occurred and someone knows doesn't mean wikipedia is on the hook to allow it to be published. This is not a moral, heretical, or an issue of the reporters' conduct.
I'll say it slowly:
absolutely.
not.
censorship.
Re:This was not censorship. (Score:5, Insightful)
A rose by any other name.....
No matter what you call it, Wikipedia lied about facts and went about removing anything that went against that. Facts are facts, the reporter was obviously notable enough before the kidnapping to have a wikipedia page, the fact that he was kidnapped is relevant and should be beyond wikipedia's purview to alter.
Two things really stick out out me in this story.
#1, news sources would almost never do this for a non-journalist
#2 Wikipedia shouldn't be in the business of suppressing indisputable facts for anyone.
Re:This was not censorship. (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Apples and oranges. A reporter being held hostage might benefit from having the information suppressed, an oxfam worker might benefit more from having the information broadcast as their position would garner sympathy.
2. You don't have the right to know all indisputable facts. I don't have the right to know your sexual orientation, what medication you may or may not use, who you voted for in the presidential election, where you live, your social security number or your bank account PIN.
Your friends might know these indisputable facts but is it their duty to put it up on wikipedia?
I find it comical that people assume everyone else's business is theirs.. Decry the right to privacy for your personal information, and point fingers at those trying to protect the privacy rights of others.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You're right, the Times didn't censor Wikipedia. Wikipedia censored its contributors. I'm not sure how you could possibly arrive at the conclusion that Jimmy Wales was not "exercising official supervision over conduct". He's an official (in the context of Wikipedia) and he put a stop to certain conduct. So, by your own definition, censorship.
I happen to think WP and the times did the right thing here; I still think it was censorship. In the same scenario, if the government had been the one doing it, I'
Re: (Score:2)
Bullshit.
Really, that's all I can say. You'd find great empoloyment in North Korea, Iran, or the UK as a person capable of fucking over the rest of the population with your totalitarion 'freedom of information must be destroyed' ideals.
Seriously. Fuck you, and stay the hell away from my internet.
Wish the NYT had more concern about non-employees (Score:5, Informative)
Obviously, everyone is glad Rodheis home safely. Neverthess, many around the blogosphere have pointed out that the Times has a two-faced approach to this kind of secrecy.
Take, for example, the Terrorist Finance Tracking Program, which the Times did a big expose of back in '06. There were absolutely no questions that this program was
Yet that didn't stop the Times from announcing to every terrorist from Marrakech to Jakarta all about it, how to avoid getting caught by it, etc.
Again, there is no dispute that this program was working; in other words, nailing terrorists -> saving civilian lives. Too bad the lives it was saving weren't those of Times employees!
PS Good overview here [nationalreview.com], by the guy who led the Justice Department's prosecution against the 1993 World Trade Center bombers.
- AJ
Re:Wish the NYT had more concern about non-employe (Score:3, Insightful)
Obviously, everyone is glad Rodheis home safely. Neverthess, many around the blogosphere have pointed out that the Times has a two-faced approach to this kind of secrecy.
In case you're unaware, The Times, among other outlets, back during the Iranian Hostage crisis, did not mention - until after they got out of Iran - that Americans were hiding in the Canadian embassy in Teheran.
Take, for example, the Terrorist Finance Tracking Program, which the Times did a big expose of back in '06. There were absolutely no questions that this program was
Yet that didn't stop the Times from announcing to every terrorist from Marrakech to Jakarta all about it, how to avoid getting caught by it, etc.
Again, there is no dispute that this program was working; in other words, nailing terrorists -> saving civilian lives. Too bad the lives it was saving weren't those of Times employees!
So the Times should not report to the American public when the U.S. Government operates secret facilities which are used to capture some people? If we go that route, and decide that "this hidden government program is a good idea and we shouldn't report on it," while "this hidden government program i
Just thought I'd ask. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
First thing I thought of... (Score:5, Funny)
I have this weird picture stuck in my head - a bearded mullah, sitting at his computer somewhere in Pakistan, complaining "WHY aren't these Wikipedia edits STICKING?!"
I see no issue here (Score:3, Insightful)
In this case, the information about this reporter was suppressed to protect his life, not to prevent, say, someone else's embarrassment or to cover-up misconduct or otherwise prevent the publication of information the public should know to protect the democratic process.
Back during the Iranian Hostage crisis, the news media cooperatively agreed not to publicize the information that there were Americans hiding in the Canadian embassy until after they were able to get out of Iran. One reporter likened the potential for publishing such information to be on the level of "giving the Nazis' Anne Frank's home address."
This is the sort of limited exception to the free publication of relevant information to the public where the news media can and does suppress a story on a temporary basis in order to prevent death or injury to others or where it is important to the issues involved that the story not be exposed for a short time. When people talk about "responsible journalism," it is this sort of behavior they are referring to.
Paul Robinson - <paul@paul-robinson.us [mailto]> - My Blog [paul-robinson.us]
Wikipedia Cannot be Trusted (Score:3, Insightful)
Wikipedia cannot, ever be trusted. It's not the information that's the problem. In fact, it's not even the malicious editors. It's the process. The process of editing information on Wikipedia is set up to allow manipulation, censorship and propaganda by anyone willing to spend the effort.
The summary says it all:
This is the process of information control. If you want something on or off Wikipedia, the goal is to ingratiate yourself with, or outright become, one of the people with authority over the articles. Lock, delete, edit, undo and generally abuse every one of the hundreds of bureaucratic hurdles that have been created in order to mould pages to your worldview and no other. The obstacles to dealing with misinformation are far, far more numerous than putting up, and guarding, that misinformation in the first place.
My own experiences are many, but most recently, I have tried to undo an edit that turned a "religion" field in a scientist infobox [wikipedia.org] into a "religious stance" field. The ensuing plastering of "atheist", "christian" and "deist" tags on scientist infoboxes left and right left little doubt that the pages were being commandeered into a larger "culture war" debate.
My efforts to undo this and return the tag to its original status were for nought. The template was locked down tight. When I argued for a reversion, I was stonewalled [wikipedia.org]. They argued for "consensus", that revision could only take place once agreement was reached, that their existed "guidelines" on the page directing that the tag could be used in this way. All this despite the fact that no agreement had ever been reached on the change in the first place [wikipedia.org].
The purpose of all the rules and regulations and procedures was clear. Someone wanted that tag to stay the way it was, and was prepared to go to great lengths to make sure of that outcome. Wikipedia admins have elevated stonewalling to an artform.
People own Wikipedia pages [slashdot.org]. Entire topics have been purged [slashdot.org]. Consider the fate of Pidgey [slashdot.org], purged from existance simply because certain people took exception to his presence and began a campaign to excise him. You may consider these issues trivial, but make no mistake; they show an systemic and fatal failure in the ability of Wikipedia to police itself.
Methods exist, and are defended, which allow persons of ill intent to control the flow and presentation of any page so long as they are willing to expend the effort. This state of affairs did not come about by chance. It is a status quo admired and supported from the very top, with Wales himself turning to it again and again. The rot has set in at the top in Wikipedia and the whole structure is now tainted.
Wikipedia cannot be trusted. For anything. Ever. There is no way whatsoever of knowing who controls the flow of information, or what their intent is, on any page. Wikipedia and its admins have no interest in the truth; only in their ability to control it.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I really hope you don't think that. It is far too easy to leave out citations which conflict with the administrators' viewpoints, and abuse verifiability to allow in questionable sources.
I can speak to what the GP stated, and say that wikipedia will make every attempt to stonewall your edits if you begin questioning the status quo. The goal is t
So we have proof, that noboy was an admin. (Score:3, Insightful)
Because else it would have gone their way. Period.
Freedom is slavery,
war is peace,
Wikipedia is truth.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
It was published by Afghanistan's leading news agency. That's a reliable source. Deleting it for not having reliable sources was an abuse of the rules, and in fact a very common one where people refuse to accept a source which can't easily be Googled in English. If they really wanted to delete the information it should have been done using the Ignore All Rules policy or the Office policy, not by abusing rules. And as a lot of people have already mentioned, newspapers constantly publish information about
Re: (Score:2)