Allegedly Rigged Product Demo In SAP Suit Goes Missing 210
narramissic writes "Waste Management sued SAP in March 2008 over a failed ERP project. Now, well into the pre-trial discovery process, a presale product demonstration software package that Waste Management says was a key element of the 'false representations' SAP made to 'induce Waste Management into entering a software licensing and implementation agreement' has gone missing. Naturally, both sides say the other has it. And SAP, for its part, says it has 'searched extensively' for the system and wants it 'as much or more' as Waste Management, since it 'will help SAP disprove WM's fraud claim.'"
like every other sales demo (Score:5, Insightful)
So this is pretty much like any other sales demo?
Re:like every other sales demo (Score:5, Funny)
Re:like every other sales demo (Score:4, Insightful)
Sounds like most projects I've worked on.
The issue, however, is that SAP made claims based on little to no information, nor people who had any idea on what the outcomes should be. Now, I'm no project management expert, but this seems like a monumentally stupid thing to do.
Whether the demo was rigged or not, SAP went into an agreement without full details and without real confidence that the product they are delivering would actually do what the client wants.
Re:like every other sales demo (Score:4, Informative)
That is my sales pitch... and you just bought my Wazmo. Who is the idiot?
Re:like every other sales demo (Score:4, Insightful)
Sounds like most projects I've worked on.
The issue, however, is that SAP made claims based on little to no information, nor people who had any idea on what the outcomes should be. Now, I'm no project management expert, but this seems like a monumentally stupid thing to do.
Whether the demo was rigged or not, SAP went into an agreement without full details and without real confidence that the product they are delivering would actually do what the client wants.
IMHO it's more complex than that. There's guilt in both sides.
Customers are guilty in that they often don't bother trying to check if what they are being sold is feasible at all. The end result is that most of the times they are willing to pay for more features in less time, even when that "more" is clearly an impossible goal. For instance if I asked you to develop an MSN clone with a proprietary protocol from scratch, and you told me it'd be ready in a week for $20, I would look for someone else to get it done.
Problem is when the customer doesn't know better, and is unreasonable.
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One of the reasons companies go to external companies like SAP, is because they don't have the technical knowledge necessary to build the thing themselves, and so how can they know when they are being lied to. This is in no way the companies fault, they aren't expected to be lied to, they aren't expected to be ripped off!
What a ridiculous way of looking at things.
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Actually software like SAP requre their own administrative/support staff. SAP is so complex (=administrative nightmare) that a company must have specialists available if they are to purchase it.
And purchasing SAP is not because of lack of technical expertise, it's because software in that scale takes years and years to develop and test. Buy it, and it's up and running in a few weeks.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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I can't agree more wholeheartedly with the above (unclear specifications). I see it all the time in my business too.
If you go to the folllowing page: http://slashweb.org/programming/25-best-programmer-comics.html [top 25 programmer jokes], one is the classic Dilbert strip where Alice tries to nail down a client's specifications... one of my favourite jokes of all time.
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instead of simply refusing to sign anything until they sat down with somebody with a brain that could tell them what they actually needed the thing to DO, instead of what they WANTED
In my opinion, it doesn't always work like that. I run my own business and regularly the following happens:
Now I've spend a day and have not yet seen a single penny. The customer usually replies with "thanks for the proposal, but you should change this
Re:like every other sales demo (Score:4, Insightful)
This happens all the time in the specialized software business.
Usually the needs are so particular that there's nothing in the market that does exactly what they want. So, you get approached by someone who knows you don't sell what they need, but they hope you can build/adapt something quickly.
The surprising thing is that if you press for exact specs at the beginning of the project, the entire project is often derailed. The realization by the customer that they don't know what they want is often enough to scare them away from buying a solution for their problem. Sales will put a lot of pressure on development in the form "just give us a general quote, we'll figure it out once they sign". For sales, every signature is a win. For the business as a whole, some projects are money losers.
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Yeah sure. Here [lmgtfy.com]
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It means "crappy software with a big name so we can ask you for a big pricetag". How they got it to spell out ERP I'll never know.
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Pretty much. I worked for a consulting company, and one of our clients needed a system to manage their manufacturing and distribution processes. Developing a system like that was far beyond the scope of our ability, but we developed the needs analysis (documented all of their internal processes, etc) and helped them shop for vendors. We eventually narrowed it down to Epicor and the Epicor sales staff of course promised everything under the heavens... then signed a contract committing to their promises.
Re:like every other sales demo (Score:4, Interesting)
The company I work for also sells waste management solutions. The first time we sold it, we took a planning tool meant for building maintenance (repairing light bulbs and the like) and repurposed it. Even today the garbage trucks still have to be entered into the system as employees.
So, yeah, this is pretty common.
Then again, the users are very positive about our solution, which is apparently one of the easiest to use in the market. That says a lot about just how bad the niche enterprise software business is in general. People think those special-purpose apps are well-crafted, but because they're special purpose they usually are held to a much lower standard than consumer apps.
The most embarassing "enterprise" niche software product I've seen was a solution for patient transport in hospitals. It was written by a hobbyist, and I could have done a better job at 15 than that guy did. Still, they sold it for thousands of dollars a seat, and were apparently one of the key players in the patient transport business. Scary.
Re:like every other sales demo (Score:4, Insightful)
Wow, so you think that trying to use software to improve your business processes by automating as many deterministic tasks as possible is a sign of incompetence? So what do you do exactly? If you're a programmer, can we assume that you demonstrate your competence by manually translating all your high-level language programs into machine code by hand?
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No, ERP in waste management means scheduling when each garbage truck will do which round, and who is going to be on it. Are you really going to schedule that on paper? What happens if you have a run of the flu, and 10 percent calls in sick? Believe me, a well-run organization uses software for this.
They probably had to reduce their planning department to save costs, and couldn't get the job done without software.
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"They probably had to reduce their planning department to save costs, and couldn't get the job done without software."
Obviously, the software didn't do the job. If, as you claim, they laid people off IN ANTICIPATION that the untested software could replace people, that only proves my charge of incompetence.
And, it really doesn't take a genius to schedule people to make a garbage run. Even in a moderately large city (500,000 to 1 million) all it takes is one idiot savant, or two to three normal people. I
SAP reply was to waste management... (Score:2, Funny)
in reference to cleaning up this mess...
"Can't someone else do it?"
Waste management was not amused.
3 points for the reference.
I for one... (Score:5, Insightful)
Getting to choose between serious incompetence and outright malice is always fun.
Re:I for one... (Score:5, Funny)
SAP is how Lucifer interacts with our world.
Any product demo showing SAP working in a satisfactory manner is clearly fraud.
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How DARE you lower Lucifefrrs name in association with that pile of crap.
Lucifer is far more clever in his malice.
It was create by a few German Gnomes that mostly live in an underground complex with one way in or out.
Now, the people who buy SAP, they have Lucifer whispering in their ears.
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How DARE you lower Lucifefrrs name in association with that pile of crap.
I knew I should have taken Satan's offer [sinfest.net]! All I got for selling my soul to SAP was a tech demo, and it disappeared the next day!
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Dear God.... Thank You for introducing us to that online comic. It rocks :)
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Seriously, what is ERP and what is SAP? Like, from a tree?
NEVER USE ACRONYMS WITHOUT DEFINING THEM!
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In some cases, an acronym is not an acronym. SAP is the company name. What does it stand for? Maybe something, but "SAP" is how people refer to the company that's called "SAP".
And in some cases, the acronym is totally unique and is accepted terminology. Think "AM", "PM", "AD", "BC". "ERP" isn't quite that ubiquitous, but it is enough so that a quick Google search--the modern equivalent of a dictionary search--would tell you exactly what you need to know. Even if they did s
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You're right, never is a strong word. Maybe I should have said "always define the acronym unless you're certain everyone will know what it is." In this case, I didn't.
However
And in some cases, the acronym is totally unique and is accepted terminology. Think "AM", "PM", "AD", "BC". "ERP" isn't quite that ubiquitous, but it is enough so that a quick Google search--the modern equivalent of a dictionary search--would tell you exactly what you need to know.
No, I did a wiki search:
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NEVER USE ACRONYMS WITHOUT DEFINING THEM!
Really?
Hey man, you got the time?
Sure, it's 10am. That's from the Latin ante meridiem, by the way, in case you were wondering. That means it's between midnight and noon.
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That means it's between midnight and noon.
Isn't everything? :)
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Isn't everything? :)
Only if you don't take the order into account.. if "midnight" is the start and "noon" is the end then the answer to your question is no.
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Re:I for one... (Score:5, Funny)
Actually, I'm convinced SAP saves big companies millions of dollars. They do so by losing invoices or making it so difficult for other companies to invoice them that these invoices never get paid. Companies using SAP have much higher payment aging than other companies.
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And how much does it cost those big companies in lost productivity when an unpaid supplier deciedes they have had enough and stops shipments?
Re:I for one... (Score:5, Funny)
And how much does it cost those big companies in lost productivity when an unpaid supplier deciedes they have had enough and stops shipments?
That's the beauty of it. You go with a supplier that's large enough to have their own SAP implementation. That way, the supplier is pretty much in the dark as well and it takes them a while to realize they should have cut you off years ago.
SAP the Board Game (Score:4, Funny)
SAP: The Board Game.
Every card says "Lose a Turn."
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SAP: The Board Game.
Every card says "Lose a Turn."
Actually - once in awhile you find a card that reads: "You hire an expensive SAP contractor! Draw another card!"
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SAP is how Lucifer interacts with our world.
I thought that was through Lotus Notes applications. They definitely emanate a creepy feeling, and nobody who used them kept his/her sanity.
Re:I for one... (Score:5, Informative)
This is not funny. I work at a fortune 11x company and I know several things are true.
1) We use SAP because they made a pitch and hooked a sucker in a suit.
2) You buy SAP, then a plan to "customize" it.
3) Customize means "finish the code"
4) It also means you pay high-ranking aka high-earning business types piles of money to give requirements to SAP when a junior coder could just do the obvious and have something that works
5) The requirements you give to SAP are exactly the same as what the sales pitch said it already did
I'm sure I could go on. This is not a funny comment, it is how SAP works. Mod me scary or obvious if you want, but not funny.
I'm glad I'm not alone (Score:3, Informative)
I too work at a multi-billion $ per year company, and our executives also bought the SAP sales pitch hook, line, & sinker. What a stinking pile of crap. I have never seen a worse user interface. The saddest part is, no-one knows of a successful implementation, yet all of the executives who buy this shit think "my company will be the first!" They also think paying hundreds of millions of dollars to firms like Deloitte will fix everything. Dumbasses.
One of my co-workers invented SAP: The Board Game.
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You missed Stop All Production
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You missed Stop All Production
Sorry After Purchase
Re:I for one... (Score:5, Funny)
While working for a factory that was switching over to SAP, I noticed that anyone outside of the SAP world (users) pronounces it 'Sap' (like from a tree). While everyone in the SAP world (consultants, etc) is very careful to pronounce it S-A-P (sounding out each letter). And they are quick to tell people that pronounce it 'Sap' that it should be pronounced S-A-P.
The software sucked so badly, and I hated it so much, that whenever I was around our SAP consultants, I made a conscience effort to say 'Sap' instead of S-A-P every chance I got. :-)
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Software As Punishment
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Getting to choose between serious incompetence and outright malice is always fun.
Forget the lost demo, I have to make that choice every time I interact with SAP.
Though frankly I think it's a combination of both -- the incompetence being when SAP actually does work.
Hahahaha (Score:3, Funny)
In response to Waste Management's complaint, SAP has said in part that the company failed to "timely and accurately define its business requirements" and did not supply "sufficient, knowledgeable, decision-empowered users and managers"
Not "decision-empowered".. good way of saying brainless lusers. I like it!
Re:Hahahaha (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, oh, SAP (Score:3, Insightful)
SAP... liquid cement... the firm that sold ERP to CEOs and turned thriving firms into basket cases by forcing wholesale moves to slow, cumbersome, slow-motion systems controlled by an elite of take-it-up-the-ass-and-weep consultants and partners? The firm that pioneered the creation of Euro 1,250 "consultants" who were newbies with sociology majors that had done three months of BAP and knew less about software than a E-scoring CompSci major. The firm that pushed for software patents in Europe because they swallowed the cool aid and were too pussy to compete against FOSS? And finally someone sued them? Where do I donate to the attack fund? God, I *hate* SAP. Bastards, long overdue against the wall. Utter, utter bastards.
Re:Oh, oh, SAP (Score:5, Funny)
Waste Management? uh, oh. (Score:2, Interesting)
Waste Management is headquartered about an hour from SAP America's headquarters in PA.
They also are also the subject of various mob-related rumors (as are all trash disposal companies), and have had a dubious string of CEO's come and leave under weird accusations of accounting fraud.
I wouldn't want to walk to my car late at night at SAP. That's all I'm sayin'.
Re:Waste Management? uh, oh. (Score:5, Funny)
How the hell did trash disposal get so mobbed up? Did the first conversation go something like this:
Mob Boss: Ya know, it's great being in the booze, gambling, and beating the crap out of people business, but you know what I've always wanted to get a piece of...? ...garbage collection. There's nuthin' more glamorous than telling people you work in garbage.
Mob Lackey: What's dat, boss?
Mob Boss:
Mob Lackey (fearful for his life): Uh... yeah, yeah, great idea boss!
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Re:Waste Management? uh, oh. (Score:5, Insightful)
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It's big business and it's tied into communal politics. Need I say more?
HMMMM . . . (Score:2)
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SAP said they were selling trash, but in reality they were selling CRAP, which as you know is a whole other department.
My legal opinion (Score:2, Funny)
Waste Management are a good old American business. Whereas SAP are a German (nazi+evil) corporation (super evil), who are European (communist).
We find in favor of the plaintiff!
Courtney (Score:2)
SAP. SAP get my presale product demonstration software package.
I am SAP.
Get me my presale product demonstration software package.
No. Wha ha ha!
Grr. I'll just get my own presale product demonstration software package through the pre-trial discovery process.
But the presale product demonstration software package was MISSING.
*BLAM!*
Failure to understand technology (Score:3, Interesting)
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It is like when I was downloading the ne acdc album of off someone, and noticed that he was downloading it from me as well. I messaged him and asked him what he was doing, he said "I'm getting back my ablum, asshole".
No, it really matters more to Waste Management (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not a lawyer, but..
Most software licensing agreements contain limitations of liability and monetary damages, usually limited to the amount paid by the customer. However, if the customer can demonstrate fraud, the customer has a chance to 'break' those limitation and go after additional damages (lost profits, cost of replacement, etc.). So if the demo exists and if it shows capabilities not found in the actual SAP implementation, WM might be able to use it to prove fraud -- assuming that the judge doesn't simply rule the demo as being "sales puffery" (i.e., salespersons are allowed a certain legal leeway in extolling the virtues of the product they're trying to sell).
Should be interesting. ..bruce..
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Can ana ctual lawyer weigh in on the legal application of "Sales puffery"?
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IANAL, but Groklaw [groklaw.net] contains all sorts of useful links to on-line legal references, which is how I found this [law.com]. HTH. HAND.
Summary (Score:2)
WM trashed SAP's ERP.
Uh oh.. (Score:2)
They are the zillionth company to find out that not only in Soviet Russia SAP ERP adapts YOU... and they are pissed about it. Don't tell me they actually expected software that would adapt to their own business model and integrate seamlessly with their operations?
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If that's what SAP claimed, then yes they should expect that. When that fails SAP should have the pants sued off them. Rinse, repeat until SAP stops lying.
SAP again? (Score:2, Interesting)
Oh this is easy... it's on the net (Score:2)
It's just a fake BSOD. [microsoft.com]
Hello, I am S.A.P. (Score:2)
Today we will have a few demonstration of our new product.
Afterwords, there will be cake.
Now read it again after the cake reference.
interesting (Score:2)
I find it interesting that the demo is apparently a separate program instead of what they were getting with some preloaded scripts or something. Our demos for our accounting system was someone running the program we were going to buy and mostly doing what we asked. We still missed that an important feature was missing :( Hey, the 1980 computer system did it, the 1990 computer system did it, but forgot to check the 2004 system :/ That was in addition finding out how many of the things it does do actually cos
WM Has It (Score:2)
When SAP said that Waste Management has the evidence, they meant they throw it out in the trash so technically WM has it now.
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Into the round file (Score:5, Insightful)
My guess at what happened: once SAP was done with the demo and left a copy with the customer, whoever was responsible for putting it together cleaned it up. It wasn't needed anymore, and document retention policies and the need to clean up file clutter both dictate it goes. On the WMI side, the techie who got the demo filed it away. It's not like a demo mock-up's going to help a developer. And again, between document retention policies and the general need to get rid of useless junk cluttering up the directories, it got deleted. And then months after that, the lawyers come around looking for it and it's not there.
This, BTW, is one of the reasons I don't like document retention policies that're designed to make sure things get deleted/destroyed. Sure they may get rid of evidence the other guy could use against you, but at the same time they get rid of evidence you could use to support your case if you end up in court. I normally consider all vendor communications to be "retain indefinitely", likewise all product documentation, specifications, etc.. At some point you will need to be able to look one of their salespeople in the eye and say "Yes, you did promise that and I've got the letter from you to prove it.".
Project management 101: (Score:2)
No seriously, this was the first thing my Project Management professor showed us...
it's me! I stole it! (Score:2)
it's a single line of C code printing Hello World!
Like a bad dream come true (Score:3, Insightful)
These 2 companies deserve each other like few in the world do... SAP sales folks ARE the KINGS of VAPO-Ware. They will promise ANYTHING in the "next release" and then re-assign any person responsible for making any claims of any type, stating that they are unavailable at this time. WM is one of the lowest of the low and has been tied to corruption and the MOB in more states than I can count on 2 hands. I am just sitting back hoping they will do each other in :D
Half-Life 2? (Score:2)
The trash hauler has said SAP used "rigged and manipulated" demonstrations during sales presentations.
Reminds me somewhat of the E3 demo of Half-Life 2, and Valve's claim of "these are not scripted sequences."
For people who don't remember, there's a point in the demo where the player walks into a room and shuts (and barricades) a door. The combine guy on the outside kicks the door open. I personally played that demo when it was leaked, and I stood outside of the "unscripted room" and watched the door magically explode inward with no-one there to kick it, as the combine just stood there and stared at me.
"As much or more" (Score:2)
"And SAP, for its part, says it has 'searched extensively' for the system and wants it 'as much or more' as Waste Management, since it 'will help SAP disprove WM's fraud claim.'"
Hmm... "I want police to find my wife as much or more as the District Attorney, since she will help disprove the DA's claim that I killed her and neatly disposed of her body."
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Hans, they're letting you post on /. from prison.
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Re:i had it (Score:4, Interesting)
A classic Indiana Jones reference highlighting the folly of choosing something based on how shiny it is get moderated as troll whilst I can get modded insightful for spouting the first nonsensical bs that comes to mind? What's the world coming to!
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Re:i had it (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:Isn't Waste Management known as sleezy (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Isn't Waste Management known as sleezy (Score:4, Insightful)
Interesting, the link is for events from 1992-97, against former top officers, and is itself from 2002. Do you think the same people are still in charge? The corporation itself isn't necessarily sleezy, those who were running it were sleezy. It is entirely possible the "culture of corruption" still exists at the company, but I don't think this link really provides much evidence of that.
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What if it's 2 AM, the seat's down, and you didn't turn on the light? That could cause one to go missing.
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How can you "go" missing? Missing is something you are or are not, not a place or activity. How, unless you are a bad marksman, or are on the prowl for young ladies, can you "go" missing?
Go crazy, then take a left at the second stop sign. Missing's right on the left. You can't miss it.
Re:SAP has no copy? (Score:4, Insightful)
Any sofware company that cannot find a copy of something they produced for a customer is INCOMPETENT!
This article talks about a Pre-Sale demo, which is usually where all of the problems occur. Most proof of concept demos done by sales consultants promise the world just to get the client to buy, then scope is reduced significantly. While the majority of sales consultants have some technical background, proof-of-concepts rarely take business flow into account, and generally show what the product can do out of the box.
This is why a lot of technical guys refer to the sales side as "the dark side" - in reference to how often the tech folks get thrown under the bus when the customer goes "Well your sales guy promised xyz to us, and you're only giving us x!"
There's no excuse for that.
ob joke (Score:5, Funny)
Upon dying, Bill Gates went to final judgement.
St. Peter said to his, "Now Bill, you have done some good things, and you have done some bad things. It has been decided to let you decide where you want to go".
So, Bill takes a look at hell and sees these beautiful women running around, in 30 degree Celsius temperature, on beautiful beaches.
Then he took a look at heaven and it was nice, you know harps and singing and worship and stuff like that.
So he said to St. Peter that he would like to go to hell.
About a week later, St. Peter went down to hell to check on Bill. There he saw him, neck deep in molten sulfur, being whipped by demons.
He said to St. Peter, "What happened to all the beautiful women, and the beaches and the 30 degree Celsius temperature?"
Peter replied, "That was just demo."
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SAP has been replacing one of our systems for over a year now.
SAP feels a lot like fight club.
You don't say anything bad about SAP, or you are out the door.
Our management is going to be different, special, the one to actually implement SAP on budget in only 3 years.
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...You don't say anything bad about SAP, or you are out the door...
That'll get you in the next round of downsizing to pay for the M$ and SAP licenses. God forbid you also have data showing the problems. That'll get you escorted to the parking lot.
Re:Enterprise Software (Score:4, Insightful)
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What is Waste Management ? a company ? what is SAP ? what is ERP (Wikipedia give me a full list of results, with "Erotic Role-playing, a sexual form of Role-playing" among them, but i guess this is not what it is about) ? Where is this story located ? Remember that you have audiance which is not from the US and sometimes don't have a clue on what you are talking about.
Thank You! I am from the US, and I have NO idea what any of this is. It's like a perfect April Fools' day joke; tons of comments that make no sense, joking like SAP and Waste Management are household names. ?