Public Notices Going Online, Not In Newspapers 75
An anonymous reader tips a story up on Bnet.com about the growing trend for governments and others to eschew newspapers and post notices of public record on their own Web sites. It's under discussion at local, state, and national government levels, including in the SEC and the states of Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, so far. "If classified ads were a backbone of the newspaper business, then the very center of the spine was the public notice. Mandated by laws and courts, these often long recitations of detail were to give official notification, to any who were interested, of the legal intents and actions of both government entities and companies that found themselves under some appropriate regulation. But a growing number of state and local governments want to move public notices online to their own sites as a cost-cutting measure. Beyond newspaper economics, critics are concerned that the shift would allow government officials to effectively hide their activities from scrutiny."
Re: (Score:1, Troll)
Dear god. If you're gunna troll, at least get the URL right: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ [youtube.com]
Hiding news . . . (Score:1)
Beyond newspaper economics, critics are concerned that the shift would allow government officials to effectively hide their activities from scrutiny.
Well lets be honest there was no better place to hide news than in local newspapers, they were intended to wrap up chips (US: fries) not for reading . . .
Which method would get the most dissemination? (Score:5, Informative)
If you are looking for something specific (say you want to bid on a contract which might be announced using these methods) probably an internet site where you can search is best. But for the function of a watchdog or check on govt. both can hide information, with the paper printing less likely (it has to hid in plain site in small print).
Re:Which method would get the most dissemination? (Score:5, Interesting)
There was a problem when I was growing up with the "local" newspaper and public notices. They had to hit a certain number of subscribers in order to count as having put out a public notice, so they gave away their newspaper to the people that lived furthest away, others closer to town paid about $0.35. It was comprised of about 70% public notices. The whole purpose of the paper was for companies to have a small paper that no one reads that meets the requirements for public notice so they can build on protected lands and other such things.
Re: (Score:2)
When I did subscribe, I couldn't even tell you where the public n
Re: (Score:2)
Well, in a real newspaper (not one of those "public notice" papers th
"Hide"? (Score:5, Interesting)
Sounds like a remarkably ineffective way to hide anything. Google "public notice"+site:.gov . Should be rather simple to set up publicnotices.org (or .com) if you are worried that such notice will be "hidden".
Publishing in the Pierce County Herald, on the other hand...
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Should be rather simple to set up publicnotices.org (or .com) if you are worried that such notice will be "hidden"
Until the government entity takes down the notice the next day, or rewords it and claims that it was always the reworded way.
A 3rd-party aggregator could defeat this problem by watching the government sites and capturing all the notices, but you won't know if the aggregator has good information... A way you could know a government disclosure was accurate is if a government entity published public keys and signed all of its disclosures. But this already seems too complicated for the average news reporter, l
Consider it this way... (Score:5, Funny)
Old People
What group is most likely to bother to read some long boring public notice and have enough free time and spare outrage to make any noise about it?
Old People
Where do you put things you don't want Old People to find?
The Internet
Re: (Score:2)
So you intend to give up the Net and take up reading public notices in newspapers when you get old? BTW how do you define old?
Re: (Score:2)
Sigh. Old or young who has time to figure out what is going on? That's what we rely on officials for.
If they're not reliable, then don't pay taxes
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Quotes from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Written by Douglas Adams
"BEWARE THE LEOPARD"
"But Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months."
"Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn't exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything."
"But the plans were on display ..."
"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."
"That
Re: (Score:2)
You've fundamentally missed the point. It's not about public vs. private, it's about placing the notice in a place that general citizens would have a reasonable chance of running across it in daily life. Unless your (and everyone's) daily web surfing involves checking government web sites every day, you're not going to see these notices. Even if *your* habits might bring you across it, 99.9% of other people won't. The point of having it in the newspaper is that most people (in the past) would be reading
How to easily catch changes in pages (Score:5, Informative)
Firefox has an extension called Scrapbook [mozilla.org] that allows you to save to your cache entire copies of a webpage without saving screenshots to your hard drive. Your browser automatically downloads all pages from a website within a link depth that you set, and you can direct the process to be restricted to one domain.
I spidered www.whitehouse.gov on January 20 and January 21, 2009 to a link depth of 3. I wish I remembered to do the same thing with Blagojevich's webpages before they were changed.
Re:How to easily catch changes in pages (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Hmm, interesting but I bet you can edit those downloaded pages to make them look like whatever you wanted them to look like, so no one will really accept them either. What is needed is a specific agency which will record and display all public notices, perhaps even with an archived hardcopy, some thing like www.publicnotices.gov.* Something that was fully search able and, with email subscriptions for personally relevant notifications.
Putting it up on local website doesn't really count as publishing it, a
Re:How to easily catch changes in pages (Score:4, Informative)
Good elements and bad elements. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Good elements and bad elements. (Score:5, Interesting)
I manage a local government .GOV website, and am probably part of the problem. Our main publication path for hearing/meeting notices is a Trumba webcalendar. They also get emailed to neighborhoods, but those lists don't have too many subscribers. Sometimes we get last-minute changes or cancellations, and we lack a tool to formally track those changes.
Worse, it's the government clerks and lawyers who actually author the meeting notices. And they will always tend to post the bare-minimum that they have to. They will post something short like "zoning board meeting. agenda: variance for 10 Elm Street" and leave out the part about how the zoning variance is for building a nuclear reactor at 10 Elm Street. They are not interested in transparency, but in disclosing only what they have to. If they advertise more, they are inviting trouble from pesky constituents against the government leaders who called for the hearing, so they don't do that.
We only recently started posting details/documents along with the meeting notices for our legislative body. One problem is that we had to develop both an internal app and webapp to organize and manage those documents. We have staff to develop that, but I'm not sure how a really small government (like a town with 5000 people) would cope. It would be nice if state government developed tools that local governments could use, but I doubt that's going to happen
I think the solution for smaller local/county governments will have to come from state and federal governments to develop tools for smaller governments to use. I'm not aware of any killer FOSS applications for tracking legislative issues, hearings, meetings, and such. The software tool just does not there.
Re: (Score:2)
At worst you'd have to use a plugin or spend a day configuring stuff to get all the fields and thingies you need
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The software tool just does not there.
What's wrong with a wiki? A newspaper is simply a general tool for publishing text and images. A wiki is the same except you could publish faster, cheaper and more voluminously.
As a bonus you could use a wiki with access and revision control.
You have no reason to use a specialized application or do a "big bang" change. In fact lots of reasons not to.
---
Astroturfers and sock puppets are liars and companies have no right of anonymity. Please have the common decency to
Re: (Score:2)
Well, its time for you to email Obama, the first "Internet President" to ask him for help.
I think that for less money that he is willing to spend on the white house internet presence, a Open Source Software Suite for Small Government could be funded.
In this time of economic crisis, there are certainly a few bright souls that would quite their unsafe and boring jobs and take government grants to start a business to develop such software and then make money supporting it.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
In England, public notices generally have to be published at http://www.london-gazette.gov.uk/ [london-gazette.gov.uk] . In Scotland, they appear on http://www.edinburgh-gazette.gov.uk/ [edinburgh-gazette.gov.uk] and in Northern Ireland, on http://www.belfast-gazette.co.uk/ [belfast-gazette.co.uk] .
Re: (Score:1, Interesting)
Back in the 60s (70s?) My grandparents had the government dig them a lake and stock it with fish so they could use it for their drinking water. The stipulation: advertise the fact the lake was there and stocked with fish. Their solution: Advertise in the chicago tribune. They had a small farm about 25 miles southeast of st louis. Like anybody seeing that ad would drive all the way down there for a small lake and fishing. Sounds like something similar.
Local government websites case study: Tuttle, OK (Score:3, Funny)
Local government websites are some of the most poorly designed and hardest to navigate.
I second you on that!
Take for instance the home page for Tuttle, Oklahoma: http://mirror.centos.org/mirrorscripts/noindex_new.html [centos.org]
That single page is so bloody cluttered and difficult to navigate that the Oklahoma City Manager (who is an very important pesron!) had difficulty with it. See http://www.centos.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=127 [centos.org]
Thanks (Score:1)
Thanks for reminding us of this amusing debacle. I fould it even more amusing (since this is the second time around for me) that the write-up of this historic event [wikipedia.org] is about 25% of all of the content of Tuttle's article in Wikipedia.
Interesting (Score:5, Insightful)
Today when you register a corporation you are required to post this fact in one or more newspapers or other similar publications. Often these notices are rather expensive to post as they are not simply standard classified ads.
Similarly, there are requirements for stock offerings and such. As well as government contract opportunities.
Sure, nobody reads newspapers anymore but at least they are saved in the public library for just about all time. You want to find something? There is a place to look. And, for the most part, this historical record is a trustworthy one.
Who, exactly, is archiving government web site content like this? Nobody, that's who. We are hell-bent on destroying any possibility of records for the future, and I have no idea why we are so firmly set on this as a goal. Easier? Sure it is. More relevent? Maybe. But there is no way that most of the digital information today is being archived in a meaningful manner, and what there is that is being archived has a very, very low signal to noise ratio, or perhaps more accurately for the Internet, a rather high noise to signal ratio.
Certainly the US is so firmly focused on entertainment today that newspapers and meaningful news doesn't stand a chance. It isn't entertaining and attempts to make news entertaining are usually grotesque paradies of reality.
Re:Interesting (Score:4, Insightful)
> Who, exactly, is archiving government web site content like this? Nobody, that's who.
Well, what are you waiting for? You think it needs doing: do it.
Interesting-The day the Internet died. (Score:2)
"Sure, nobody reads newspapers anymore but at least they are saved in the public library for just about all time. "
Only a geek would say that. A lot of people still read the newspaper, either their own or the libraries copy. If anything's to be hidden it's from those who don't have internet access.
Re:Interesting (Score:4, Insightful)
Today when you register a corporation you are required to post this fact in one or more newspapers or other similar publications. Often these notices are rather expensive to post as they are not simply standard classified ads.
Similarly, there are requirements for stock offerings and such. As well as government contract opportunities.
Sure, nobody reads newspapers anymore but at least they are saved in the public library for just about all time.
Actually, the notice requirement varies by locality. I've registered DBA's and have worked with others registering corporations in Los Angeles County. There are actually publications whose sole reason for existing is to publish such legally mandated announcements, and I have yet to see one anywhere. The last one I used (three weekly pubs for my most recent DBA) was done by filling out a web form online and paying forty bucks by credit card. My proof of publication was three dated photocopied sheets of a crude looking advertisement and a receipt from the publisher. It's nothing you'd ever find in a library, that's for sure. I have no freakin' clue where this little rag was publicly available, but the county recorder accepted it. It's all a sham, now. A vestigial organ long since outlived its purpose. I say get rid of it.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Today when you register a corporation you are required to post this fact in one or more newspapers or other similar publications.
Not in all states, Colorado for instance...
Archives? (Score:2)
Would the notices be "published" in some archivable form? Or would they be subject to continual revision and modification?
I sympathize with Internet have-nots (Score:3, Insightful)
I mean how would you like it if you were caught in a situation where you didn't have access to public information? ;-)
Slippery Slope (Score:2)
Just watch, before long they'll be posting public notices by leaving them in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'.
This explains a lot (Score:3, Insightful)
For example, how the Vogons managed to get away with hiding that demolition notice in some planning department out in Bum Fuck, Alpha Centauri.
Rob
Re: (Score:2)
hiding that demolition notice in some planning department out in Bum Fuck, Alpha Centauri.
In a locked cabinet in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the leopard!", mind you.
Outside repository (Score:5, Insightful)
This shouldn't be allowed. Public notices in newspapers serve two purposes. The first is the one mentioned, publishing the notice where interested parties can see it. The second isn't mentioned, though, and that's to create a record of the notice outside the control of the party required to post it. The notice can't be changed later, can't be quietly made to never have happened. We've already seen entities change stories posted on their Web sites when what was in those stories became inconvenient later. Yes, it's going to cost a little extra to maintain that independent record of the notices. When we make a big payment or an important one where not making it has big consequences, it definitely costs for them to give us a receipt that we can use later to prove we did pay and what we paid for. We don't accept the cost savings as a valid reason for not being given a receipt, we don't accept "Trust us, we've got a record of your payment.".
Re: (Score:2)
How about an arrangement by which public notices would be stored in the Internet Archive? Small fees for this would help to support it.
Re: (Score:2)
What an astoundingly bad idea. (Score:1)
When the Internet has nearly 100% saturation... (Score:4, Interesting)
As it stands right now a good percentage of the population still do not have reasonable access to the internet or are not tech savvy enough to own a computer (i.e. many of the elderly). They should not be punished for their lack of internet access by removing public government notices from newspapers which are still easily accessible by anyone.
Not quite ready yet (Score:1)
In related news (Score:1)
Vogon ships have been sited heading towards Earth.
publicnotice.gov? (Score:3, Interesting)
Why doesn't the government set up a specific website, such as publicnotice.gov, and require the use of that?
Governments all over are already using internet web services such as BidSync to post their bids in lieu of other methods for public notice.
I'd much rather have a single website to review than classified ads which may never make it online.
Maybe there's a more elegant solution to my 5-second thought above, but we can't keep using local newspapers. It's practically a monopoly-type service for newspapers (public notices run about $200 or more in a small city because there is no competition), and one that will soon fall apart when these organizations die.
Re: (Score:2)
Unless that's a easily indexable website with all public domain content that can be copied and mirrored freely, it would probably do more harm than good.
Libraries everywhere are able to copy and "mirror" newspapers for archival and reference purposes. If publicnotice.gov was a single point of reference (failure), you get just as much ability for Orwellian history manipulation.
It's a good thing if done right, like EDGAR. (Score:5, Interesting)
This is a good thing, but it has to be done right. Like the SEC's EDGAR system.
EDGAR now has a user-friendly interface and a search engine, but underneath is a huge collection of raw SGML files accessible via FTP. These files stay up forever and their names and contents do not change. Many big services (Bloomberg, EDGAR Online, Google, etc.) grind through that data every day. One of my systems, Downside [downside.com], does it too. There's no charge for access, bulk downloads are supported, and the raw filings are accessible. That's the way it should work.
What you don't want is something you can only access through a search engine, with some of the information on a pay site. A bad example is Delaware's corporate record system.
So the minimum standards for a public records system that replaces publication should be comparable to those maintained by EDGAR.
Re: (Score:2)
Great points. It's sure feels like a more cut-and-dry issue legally than the typical scenario of a potential employer finding a picture of a particularly debaucherous night from the past. Scary as it may be, it's not hard to envision legislation sometime in the future that would address archiving bankruptcy and foreclosure info (disregarding the practicality of enforcement, of course).
Making Corrupt Government More Efficient! (Score:2)
This will be great for the Aussie Government. Public servants are supposed to advertise externally so all appointments are competitive, but they typically pick a buddy or relative for the job. The external advertising is a real pain because it gets applicants who might get the job.
No problem! They convene an "Interview Panel" populated by the buddy's friend and three other disinterested public servant chair-warmers who have
Dumping newspapers is premature (Score:1)
In some cities, there are still too many people who rely on public notices in print format.
Also, there should be an "official write once" record of all such notices deposited somewhere. This doesn't have to be print, microfilm, CD, or whatever.
If the "official write once" version is not made at the time of the online version, then a signed hash of the online version should be published in write-once format at the time the online version is made, so there's no chance it could be silently edited.
Shenanigans (Score:2)
Working journalist here...
Public notices are a Good ThingTM, but there is no real journalistic scrutiny as a result of them appearing in a newspaper; or anywhere else for that matter.
Most of the stuff that's required to print as public notice out here is liquor license applications, articles of incorporation, DUI checkpoint locations and open meeting schedules (not even the minutes).
If I did my job based only on what public notices and press releases I received from the government, I'd never get anywhere at
It's workable, but not yet in Johannesburg (Score:1)
We don't get "the paper" (Score:1)
Public Notice Kiosk Implementation (Score:1)