EU Data-Retention Laws Stricter Than Many People Realized 263
An anonymous reader writes with a snippet from the Telegraph: "A European Union directive, which Britain was instrumental in devising, comes into force which will require all internet service providers to retain information on email traffic, visits to web sites and telephone calls made over the internet, for 12 months."
yay! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:yay! (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:yay! (Score:5, Funny)
Why do you think I posted it here? I use slashdot for all my backups. Incidentally,
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6f0054bc03000905 0d0b131018151e1b
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9b98a19da7a3aca9 b2afb8b4bebac3c0
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f1eff6f3faf8fefc 00003c00414c454d
2e333139042000c8 0000000000001400
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Re:yay! (Score:4, Informative)
"A European Union directive, which Britain was instrumental in devising, comes into force which will require all internet service providers to retain a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/technology/technologynews/5105
Yeah, they forgot a few basic HTML tokens.
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And thus, a meme is born! This is our very own HNNNNNNNNGGG or rhymes-with-Candlecrack. Truly this is a grand day where we will all a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/technology/technologynews/5105
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BBC News link (Score:5, Informative)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7985339.stm [bbc.co.uk]
Broken summary (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Broken summary (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Broken summary (Score:5, Funny)
this is the story Slashdot is attempting to post.
For some reason, thinking about that sentence was deeply disturbing.
Slashdot is attemting to post a story. It has reached self awareness.
What's the story about? I can only think of two options:
"Hello World! I am Slashdot."
"Kiiiiil meee..."
Re:Broken summary (Score:4, Funny)
Between slashdot and Freud, if this is where Skynet gained self-awareness ti'd explain everything. On the bright side, it could have started on /b/.
Re:Broken summary (Score:4, Funny)
If /. became self aware I just know what it is going to say...
FIRST THOUGHT!
Re:Broken summary (Score:5, Insightful)
The EU directive is not that strict, but the law in EU countries might be. An EU directive is not a law by itself, it is a directive to enact a law. The EU members can exceed the requirements of the directive, and if the UK has enacted a law which requires ISPs to store web URLs, then the UK has clearly "overaccomplished" (surprise surprise...)
Re:Broken summary (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, from what I read the German implementation only requires ISPs to retain the connection data to their service, i.e. when someone was connected, what IP he had then, etc. Stuff you'd have thought they were retaining anyway. For phones the requirement is to retain a log of all phonecalls, again something I'd expect them to do for billing and traffic analysis alone already. What did get people up in arms was the idea to install malware to monitor computers but the guy who proposed that seems to be enamoured with the idea of rebuilding the Reich anyway.
Of course I might have missed some later additions if they happened. Wish the Brits good luck with their web browsing logging and hope the citizenry will get some HTTP noise makers (connecting to random websites a lot) to make the logs truly useless.
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when someone was connected, what IP he had then, etc. Stuff you'd have thought they were retaining anyway. For phones the requirement is to retain a log of all phonecalls
One of the Colombian drug cartels used to collect this kind of information in order to catch informants. They were very successful with it for some time and people who called the officials (Colombian or US) tended to disappear. What if a drug gang or a mafia would get this information in Europe?
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Unlike the crime infested US, there are no drug gangs or mafia in Europe.
+1 funny. You know where the word mafia comes from, right?
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Oh, and before I get flamed, or modded to karma hell, I AM A EUROPEAN. There are many great things to say about Europe over America, but anyone who thinks Europe is crime-free needs to take a stroll in some of the less salubrious districts of any of our fair capitals.
Re:Broken summary (Score:4, Insightful)
Unlike the crime infested US, there are no drug gangs or mafia in Europe
You're supposed to post that sort of thing on the first day of this month, not the sixth.
In any case, it's of far more concern that "legitimate" public bodies such as local councils and quangos will potentially be able to access this sort of information. That covers hundreds of thousands of people, many of them low-level staffers or those elected by only a few hundred people. There is an obvious case for allowing the police and intelligence services to access this kind of information, subject to powerful safeguards and judicial oversight, where it is necessary for the performance of their public duties. However, there is absolutely nothing that is done at the level of the hundreds of other organisations involved that justifies the kind of invasion of privacy covered by this sort of law.
We've seen a seemingless endless stream of abuses reported in the press recently, invoking draconian surveillance powers to cover the most trivial of suspected offences, and often against people who turned out to be entirely innocent anyway. This is not the behaviour of a people-serving government in a free country. It is staggering that this has been allowed to go through in its current form anyway.
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The word "strict" isn't the most useful one here without qualification. I read the title as saying that the safeguards were stricter than people had assumed. IMO the title would be improved by s/Strict/Broad/.
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The EU directive is not that strict, but the law in EU countries might be. An EU directive is not a law by itself, it is a directive to enact a law. The EU members can exceed the requirements of the directive, and if the UK has enacted a law which requires ISPs to store web URLs, then the UK has clearly "overaccomplished" (surprise surprise...)
The data retention directive specifically says they must retain elements that identify the origin and the destination.
Please read it [europa.eu]. The level of fachism scares me.
From what they demand to storing URLs, is merely a matter of semantics, and the danger of that being done was predicted long before the directive was approved.
The Data Retention Directive is the equivalente to having a spy per citizen, noting down who he talks with, where and for how long.
Would you accept this in real life? No. Why do you accept
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Re:Broken summary (Score:4, Insightful)
Love for the editors (Score:3, Insightful)
I would have agreed w/you a year or two ago. OMG! Another dupe?!? WTF do these monkeys DO when they are busy 'working'?!?
But then I saw the firehose andplayed with it for a while. It dramatically changed my mind, and explains why sites like digg often seem like broken records, with the same stuff getting front paged over and over every few days/weeks/months.
Imagine seeing the same thing, over and over and over again, worded slightly different each time. Did you see that story before? Well, yes you did. It i
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it is estimated that will take between 20,000 and 40,000 terabytes of data for one internet service provider to store this data for 1 year.
Well, it will certainly be easy to ferret out any important data in that dataset, huh
Oh, I was going to say that this database is just begging to be destroyed by a coordinated flooding effort. But perhaps it will destroy itself.
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You're probably right. The massive overhead required will be costly, and likely drive some small ISPs out of business.
Other thought: The E.U. just crossed the line into U.S. government territory. In addition to citizens being harassed by the local "state" governments - now it's also the central government that is directly harassing the citizens via stupid laws/directives. Twice the fun! Congratulations Europeans. Now you get to have the same fun we Americans have been experiencing since 1933. ;-)
Re:Broken summary (Score:5, Insightful)
No no, it's fine - "The UK government has agreed to reimburse ISPs for the cost of retaining the data."
I run a small ISP for 5 users. I estimate that I will need 27 new servers to handle the data, and that it will take me 42 days to implement, at my standard rate of £1000/day plus expenses.
It will be a big project, so I will need to employ all of my friends and every member of my family to consult on the work, for the full duration of the project, at their standard rate of £500/day.
Where do I send the bill? I'll ask Jacqui Smith, I've heard she knows the address of the expenses department.
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Come on mate, you forgot a few things.
1. Larger secure facility (new house)
2. Method of transportation to said facility (new car)
3. Consultants, due to the nature of the work, are generally higher paid. Lets just call it £1500/day each.
I'm sure I've missed a couple of things here as well...
Re:Broken summary (Score:5, Insightful)
Thank you for raising those points. And I can't be earning less than the people I'm paying, so I'd better up my daily rate too. £3000/day sounds reasonable.
Might be worth building a data centre in the Caribbean too. For remote backups, to ensure data integrity. Just off the beach, facing the sea, to take full advantage of the sea breezes to reduce cooling costs. Will need to spend at least 6 months a year out there maintaining the systems, so may as well add a small apartment to the data centre, to save on hotel bills. 7 bedrooms should be enough for me and my consultants, who would need to rotate in on a 4-weekly basis.
I should stand at the next election, I've clearly got the right attitude for government.
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Sorry but I think your political career would be short lived. While you have clearly defined all the ways in which you would waste the tax payers money on junkets and toys, erm I mean, carefully spend the tax payers money on important projects you have completely overlooked:
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Why shouldn't you tip a fly, if he gives good service? Honestly.
Fly Tipping (Score:2, Funny)
Idiot! He's obviously referring to the miniature version of cow-tipping, which is quite popular in Europe.
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So, I have a fridge I need to get rid of. I know, I could just take it to the town dump (recycling centre now :) and leave it there for free but somebody might see me. I could leave a message on freecycle but I don't want some cheapo fucker having my old fridge for free. I can't be bothered to put an ad in the paper because I'd have to put my number in there and have weirdo's call me up while I'm trying to relax in the bath. Wait, I'll just check out www.flytipping.org.uk they have google maps and everythin
Perhaps this is the story you were after. (Score:2, Informative)
Thanks, I'll be here all week.
Re:Perhaps this is the story you were after. (Score:4, Funny)
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You must be new here.
3 years in the EU if I'm not wrong ? (Score:2)
I think this is three years in the EU.
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1. Great Britain is a member of the EU.
2. It is six month mandantory, but only for phone companies and for the IP-adresses you get from your service provider.
Re:Perhaps this is the story you were after. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Mod parent insightful.
That's not strict ... (Score:5, Funny)
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I wish my clients would be satisfied with me retaining an anchor to their fileserver shares? Would make backing things up much easier if thats all they required when they requested 2 week data retention.
Watchon (Score:2, Insightful)
Welcome to the Death of the Free Internet (Score:3, Insightful)
You were here to see it.
40,000 TB of stored emails over 12 months. (Score:3, Insightful)
Thanks for your nation building projects, Eurolovers. Now you have gotten us the panopticon state, and it is never going away. Surveillance, once implemented, has never in history been cut without social upheaval.
Re:40,000 TB of stored emails over 12 months. (Score:5, Insightful)
While the adoption of the data retention directive was a perfect example of backdoor decision making (to the extent that its rapporteur in the European Parliament had his name removed from it, because he did not want to be associated with the outcome), it's naive to think that without the EU this would never have happened.
In fact, Ireland already had such laws before the directive was adopted, and has been fighting the directive before the European Court of Justice because they have to *weaken* their current implementation to comply with the directive (no, this does not demonstrate how great the directive is, only how repugnant the Irish data retention laws are).
Belgium was also working on such legislation, but suspended that work when the directive was introduced, and is finishing it up now. Those are the two examples I know of, but I'm certain there are/were more.
Re:40,000 TB of stored emails over 12 months. (Score:5, Insightful)
Data retention is optional in mainland Europe but mandatory in Britain [blogspot.com]. The UK Government are using the EU to implement the laws they want, and then blaming those laws on Brussels. Our taxes, hard at work - when we're not paying for their second homes, we're paying for surveillance and the PR that sells the need for it to the main stream media. And through all this, they still have the brass balls to tell us that talk of a police state is daft [guardian.co.uk]. Where does it end? All you US'ians who have complained about Obama or Bush - consider how much worse it would be if you lived over here.
Re:40,000 TB of stored emails over 12 months. (Score:5, Informative)
Data retention is optional in mainland Europe
No, it's required in the entire EU by the directive. However, the directive does not lay down many limits, but mainly imposes some minima.
As a result, law enforcement agencies in many countries have been having constant wet dreams ever since and are pushing with all their might to extend the national implementations (massively) beyond those minima. While even those minima would already have made the STASI green with envy...
Re:40,000 TB of stored emails over 12 months. (Score:4, Informative)
When the EU directive was implemented in Germany, guess what changed for my ISP? Absolutely nothing, because they recorded everything the law requested already.
Previously such data all was protected by the privacy directive and its implementations, which meant that it had to be destroyed as soon as it was no longer necessary (e.g., to deal with spamming complaints or for billing purposes), and could not be made available to anyone except under very strict conditions (like having a court order or so).
With the directive/laws coming into effect, law enforcement agencies (and others) are pushing to turn all of this data into massive pools in which they can go on fishing expeditions, or at the very least they want to be able to trawl through it in the context of any "investigation" (no matter what about -- nevermind that the directive was of course pushed through with sob stories about kidnapped children and terrorists). This is no different in Germany [edri.org].
Of course, subsequently that idiocy got challenged [edri.org] and largely curtailed [edri.org] by the German Constitutional Court.
People being all up in arms about it and acting all concerned, doesn't change the fact, that the EU directive doesn't actually accomplish much beyond legislating the present state into continuation.
Whatever makes you feel complacent in doing nothing and in anonymously wining about those who do (and who try to make sure that you can continue doing so)...
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You don't know anything about the STASI then. Do you really think, recording who is called and to whom mail is sent would make the STASI green with envy, because after all, they only listened in to phone calls and opened the mail?
I'll admit up front I don't know anything at all about the Stasi.
So they listened to phone calls and opened mail--how much more wonderful would they think it was to be able to go do a full search of people's communication for key words/phrases in mere seconds or minutes? Once you figure out some new item to search for, you can almost instantly go back months (years?) and probably turn up new "troublemakers." That's some serious pre-information age police state wet dream material right there.
Coming from britons, that's rich (Score:2)
It's the brits that are always pushing Europe into their nightmare surveillance society. No other country in Europe has nowhere near as many CCTV cams, by several orders of magnitude.
As far as I'm concerned, you can GTFO and keep your Thatcher (isn't that witch dead already?) and your Coalition of the Willing to Bend Over.
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
This bit intrigues me (Score:5, Funny)
Hundreds of public bodies and quangos, including local councils, will also be able to access the data to investigate flytipping and other less serious crimes.
So how many people will post on a website or email their friends to say "we just dumped the old sofa in someone's driveway"?
Re:This bit intrigues me (Score:5, Insightful)
That argument is a load of rubbish (excuse the pun).
How this can possibly be used to investigate fly-tipping is beyond me: the contents of the emails aren't going to be stored, just header data such as sender, recipient, date, time, and IP addresses. What possible value can this have in identifying a fly-tipper?
If anything, it will be used as a strategy of "guilt by association". If you were in contact with someone that gets picked up for benefit fraud, or some other crime, be prepared to get investigated.
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Very true, I was talking in terms of email data, not phone data.
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If you talk about what "phone data" can do in public, you end up dead.
Think back to Adamo Bove and Costas Tsalikidis.
damo Bove was the head of security at Telecom Italia and exposed the CIA (Abu Omar rendition in Italy traced after the
fact with mobiles), SISMI ( ~ the Italian CIA) and his own bosses.
He was found under a freeway overpass.
Costas Tsalikidis was a 38-year-old software engineer for Vodaphone in Greece.
He uncovered a highly sophisticated bug embedded in the mobile
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For those not getting the British jokes:
Question (Score:5, Interesting)
Obviously my ISP won't be able to read the headers and Google is a US company, but is my data still stored in the UK and if so does it fall under the directive?
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I would be more worried if you are an small business and are running your own simple web site and e-mail server for you and your three employees, and using the connection to connect your local LAN to the Internet.
Are you an ISP then? Do you have to keep records of all your e-mail traffic? Including actual messages and spam? What if law enforcement or who-ever comes to have a look for it? In what format are you supposed to give the information? Raw postfix log enough?
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Say I send an email to my dad - will that at any time be stored on a European Google database that will be affected by this law? ie Does the country setting in your Google account affect where your data is stored?
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Its busybody third parties I'm worried about - I want to know if my email will be affected by this law, where almost any third party can request my email headers for the pas
Deep packet inspection? (Score:4, Interesting)
Does anyone know how this is supposed to be implemented and how it relates to "arbitrary" data passing through the system? For example, email "headers" are supposed to be logged. One might imagine this being done by logging smtp, pop and imap transactions. But given that almost everyone I know uses webmail these days, and given that web traffic (presumably monitored using transparent proxy servers) is only supposed to have the URLs logged, not content, how does that stack up -- especially when you throw SSL into the mix? Are ISPs legally required (even if it's technologically unfeasable -- that's never stopped the law) to inspect HTTP transactions to see if it's webmail passing through, and log the recipients? Or is this just a humungous loophole for webmail hosted outside of the jurisdiction? Also: how does it affect non-UK citizens whose services are hosted by a geographically-distributed provider who might have nodes in the UK or at least the EU?
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I imagine you'd monitor what happens on the backend rather than the HTTP traffic - which may well still be POP or IMAP.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
To retain a href=? (Score:2)
To retain a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/technology/technologynews/5105 ...?
Oh, I get it. Haha. Nice late April Fool's joke, Slashdot!
We need this kind of laws in the UK (Score:5, Insightful)
The country is full of terrorists, child molesters and subversives and something has to be done about it.
This being the UK, government needs to be able to track down and follow dangerous people that might endanger the social and political stability of the country, like: members and supporters of anti-war movements, ecologist movements, free-speech/privacy movements, Tories, Lib Dems, Scots, Welsh and Irish nationalist parties, teenagers ('cause of knife crime), investigative journalists, anybody that makes request under the Freedom of Information act, people that complain about the government, anybody that talks too loud in a 1 mile circle around Parliament, whistle-blowers of government wrongdoing and more.
As usual our masters, being wiser than everybody else, have gotten their laws passed using the EU so that they can blame it on the European Union - a trick that always works with the unwashed masses around here.
All hail the fascist-Labour party!
[Having been born in a country under a fascist dictatorship and having been raised hearing my family's stories about it, it's impressive how things in the UK are slowly moving towards a modernized version my mental image of how it was - in the UK we now even have police adverts pretty much telling people to denounce their neighbors.]
Re:We need this kind of laws in the UK (Score:5, Insightful)
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Its not just the UK that is fighting the "war on photographers".
I was taking photographs of local buses here in Perth, Australia and got pinged by a security guard who initially claimed I was a peeping tom (because I was in a location where lots of people were walking past, never mind that taking photos of people walking down the street for private purposes is NOT illegal) and then after looking at the bus photos on my camera claimed that taking photos of buses was a violation of "anti-terror laws", took my
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Wonder if they are now on some low level list or have had their ISP use eyeballed.
When Will the Insanity in Britain Slow Down? (Score:2, Funny)
If every Britain ran a high definition 24/7 Web cam then the ISPs/government would be struggling to keep all that data, and since porn is pretty much illegal now in Britain; the ISPs would likely be breaking the law in quite of few of these cases. It's always nice to know that the government, by necessity, would have an unofficial backup of my favourite download; the movie 2 Girls 1 Cup.
STK: Strong buy! (Score:2)
Did anyone of the legal bodies (is it me or does it sound like dead weight for some reason?) ever think of the amount of data this would create? And that somewhere, somehow, this data has to be stored?
The average "browser connection" (i.e. opening a webpage) opens, considering all pictures, ads, links, redirects and other crap nobody wants or needs, about 10-20 connections. All of which have to be protocolled, filed, stored and archived. If you open a hundred pages per day we're at 2000 connections, and thu
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But:
a) that's google, not a tiny local/specialist ISP already operating under tight margins
b) you're out by a massive factor; google will only the URL you clicked; not the headers for your click, headers for every resource on the resulting page, and the headers for every page you open from there.
For example, google 'slashdot', then click through to the front page. Google stores 1 piece of data for that click. Your ISP stores 35 (at time of writing).
Arms race (Score:5, Insightful)
Most of these have been tools for privacy freaks and people with something to hide. Running them is enough to raise suspicion. But these kind of data retension measures are much more likely to force such tools to become mainstream. This could backfire on law enforcement and security forces in ways they really don't want.
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In the US, maybe we'll start treating information the same way the IRS taxes money. Every quarter, you submit all of your own data, including off-shore data, for that quarter. Once a year, you file a report detailing all of your data. We'll call it a "voluntary" data reporting system.
What about me ? (Score:2)
I host a website, and run some mail, off my end of the DSL cable, yet I'm not an ISP - I do not route traffic, really, nor do I have any customers. Does this law apply to me too ? Or do I just have to assume that my ISP duly filters my traffic ?
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There was a case of the Dutch internet provider Xs4all suing the government, to be reimbursed for the storage costs that resulted from this legislation. They lost.
TFD (Score:3, Informative)
"Technology .. Stasi .. dreamed of" (Score:4, Insightful)
"Hundreds of public bodies and quangos, including local councils, will also be able to access the data to investigate flytipping and other less serious crimes."
quangos - non-governmental organization performing governmental functions.
This could mean deputised cyber vigilante groups targeting anyone who visits a website, posts on a forum or has a link to someone of interest.
Gathering data like this is fine for the security services. With MI5/6, Scotland Yard or some task force you *should* face a day in court.
Even with MI5/6 rendition, a member of the house may ask after you and after a few years you get to face a real UK Embassy official.
The problem with the UK system is 'anyone' interested can see your usage data and get a mob at your door.
If you sell up, your guilty.
If you stay you have a good lawyer.
Not strict at all (Score:3, Funny)
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This is ridicilous (Score:2)
This won't do any help in fighting terrorism. Instead, it will allow an easy route to blackmail people. Like, we will present some evidence about your infidelity to your wife if you don't cooperate with us.
Yes, secret agencies were able to do that even before, but now, when such logging becomes mandatory, even telco technician will be able to get the history of your communications.
FSF, EFL and other organizations should do everything to develop and promote technical solutions that would render this logging
OMG (Score:2)
Won't somebody think of the href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/technology/technologynews/5105
I bet it will end this (Score:3, Insightful)
They will simply won't have slightest idea how to use these data usefully. It will be abused and finnally revoked.
Unfortunately people in power NEVER learns. Because we let them to skip that.
What we need... (Score:4, Funny)
...is some way of sending email to random people to clog up their logging servers and make it difficult, if not impossible to separate the real content from the garbage. I hear there are some enterprising individuals who have been running a pharmaceutical mail order business based on that concept, maybe we can ask them for some advice?
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I think this makes absolute proof that none of these "editors" actually exist. They're all scripts.
Re:Truth in summary....Editors Stoned/Drunk.... (Score:4, Interesting)
No, if you look at the submitted article, on the firehose link [slashdot.org], it's fine, correctly formatted, if a bit verbose. It took a human to fuck it up.
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It's quite surprising that such an error can stay on the front page for this long. Don't the editors actually look at the site at all?
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Don't the editors actually look at the site at all?
You *ARE* new here, aren't you? :P
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Er, yes. The labour party was very clear during the elections that Brown would take over from Blair.
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There is gold in them "public bodies and quangos"
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You mean they forgot to the article ?
No, I guess they simply misplaced a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/technology/technologynews/5105
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wow it's like you said 'woosh', but you actually 'woosh'ed yourself. You attempted to embarrass but you embarrassed yourself. Blazes.
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I don't see how thats going to help you, all those random sites you visit will still be logged and since you don't have much control over what exactly you are visiting you may find yourself having to explain your interest in Islamic training camps or extreme child porn. Claiming that you didn't actually visit these places and your computer 'just randomly went there its self' is not going to cut much ice with your interrogation team.