Australia Mulling a Nationwide Vehicle-Tracking System 176
An anonymous reader writes "It seems that as political support for Australia's version of the national ID card is waning, the powers that be have found a far more effective way to catalog the populace. CrimTrac, an Australian government agency responsible for designing technical solutions to aid policing, is due to hand in a $2.2 million scoping study for the introduction of a nationwide automatic number plate recognition system (ANPR). It seems that as well as ANPR, the system will also collect images of drivers and passengers with high enough resolution for identification purposes. All ANPR data collected would be made available to participating agencies in real time, and retained for five years for future investigations."
on-start service. (Score:2, Funny)
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Surely you're in the bathroom. Just chase the 'roo out.
Also - Toilets flushing backwards? Doesn't that mean stuff comes *out* of the bowl and flies up at you? Urgh
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As an Aussie I would just like to point out that things do fly out of dunny's - that's why the redbacks live under the seat.
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+1 Painful!
Re:on-start service. (Score:4, Informative)
"Help! I don't know where am I, but i see a kangaroo and the toilets are flushing backwords"
For those whose knowledge of Aussie plumbing is limited to that one episode of the Simpsons, Australian toilets do not flush backwards. The design they use does not produce any swirling motion at all.
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For those whose knowledge of Aussie plumbing is limited to that one episode of the Simpsons, Australian toilets do not flush backwards.
Oh thank god, I wouldn't want to shower and shampoo the rug after every use.
The design they use does not produce any swirling motion at all.
It doesn't involve a jet engine strapped to the top does it?
Re:on-star service. (Score:4, Insightful)
Even if Australians used American-made toilets (with swirling motion), they still wouldn't spin backwards. How water spins down a drain is related to the design of the unit, not the earth's rotation. (urban legend).
BACK TO ARTICLE:
"Only criminals need fear tracking of their cars," is the most common defense to this proposal. My response: "And what if the government makes travel a crime? Then we ALL become criminals." Why would government make travel a crime? Well besides the obvious case of dictatorship, there's also the possibility a government might outlaw travel for environmental reasons. Or because oil is scarce.
A person is not truly free unless he has the right to travel whereever he wishes without restraint or monitoring.
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My response: "And what if the government makes travel a crime? Then we ALL become criminals."
In that case it'd be more effective to just stand in the road, that way they don't have to hunt you down.
I love the "What if they do something different in the future" arguments. What if the government declares martial law and starts using chemical warefare on its own citizens? Surely we mustn't have an army so we can stop such a catastrophe!
Re:on-star service. (Score:4, Insightful)
History shows that all governments eventually become tyrannical in nature. (For example Rome started as a Republic, devolved into an Imperium, and finally ended as a dictatorship.) More recently, we have our own President spying on us with the US PATRIOT Act giving him power to tap all phone conversations everywhere.
Why give some future tyrant the tools to abuse his power & track all travel? We should limit government power every chance we get, to guard against that future tyrant *before* he arrives on the scene.
Re:on-star service. (Score:5, Interesting)
Agreed. The whole idea is incredibly stupid. "CrimTrak"? If they know someone is a criminal, go to his house, his parent's house or his girlfriend's house. 95% of the time he'll be there. For the other 5%, we need panopticon video surveillance of the general population! It's obvious! How ever did we make it to 2008? The criminals should have killed us all by now without this technology!
Please, somebody, somewhere cut me a f*cking break and stop this stupidity.
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We can take care of the other 5% by inviting them to a party [telegraph.co.uk], apparently.
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Heh. They ran a sting like that around here by sending them notices that they won a prize and to come pick it up. Criminals are pretty stupid.
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I agree. Hence my example of not having an army to protect against future tyranny.
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Australia is *far* more down to earth than the US government.
It would be quite a powerful crime fighting tool being able to get a bank robber's licence plate number and being able to track them within minutes of the robbery.
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You mean the license plates they stole/duplicated from the car in the airport long-term parking garage, which is the same model and color as the getaway car they stole last week?
Serious criminals will work around the system, and dumb ones will still hide out at their girlfriend's place.
Other ways of getting "clean" cars include carjacking, holding families hostage, or simply killing the owner(s).
sigh
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Erm if they stole plates, the system would still work because the camera would still see those numbers driving around.
What those numbers mean are irrelevant - If someone gets the licence plate of the robbers, then the cameras can follow them.
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Sorry I wasn't clear enough. My point is that the cameras log the plates, not the people.
They change to another vehicle as soon as they're out of sight of cameras and witnesses. It'll take time to work out the changeover, if ever. They can use car parks, shopping centers, mass transport, deserted areas, etc. Hey, take the magnetic plates along, there's lots of blue 2005 model Camrys around, there's probably a score within a minute's drive of where I work. It might not be discovered for days.
This is not a tr
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Yes, and bank robbery, like all other crimes, are at such an horrendous all-time high. This will certainly nip this problem in the bud!
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Honestly, I don't give a shit. I don't know about Australia, but the police here, in America, have done a wonderful job catching bank robbers without needing to know where I am.
Is crime really so bad in Australia that it's just easier to treat everybody like criminals in the first place?
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1. The police currently do a good job of catching bank robbers, and
2. Idiots will still suggest Orwellian overraction to their invented 'problems'.
I used to work in the banking industry so I can attest to 1, and 2 is self evident.
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Australia is *far* more down to earth than the US government.
It would be quite a powerful crime fighting tool being able to get a bank robber's licence plate number and being able to track them within minutes of the robbery.
In principle you are right however a bank robber with any clue will steal a car and use that for the robbery then dump the car and change to one or even two other cars to throw of the police. If the thieves are blatant they may even catch a train or bus (sans masks of course).
Actually the police have more chance of identifying a thief from the crime scene and can arrest them while protecting themselves and the public. High speed chases may catch a thief in the end but when a thief perceives they don't hav
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That is absolute bullshit. For a tenth of the price, they could hire adequate manpower to make such technology pale in comparison for that intended purpose.
The real purpose, the big brother surveillance of every minutae of our life by our opressive dictators is being trialled in Australia for a wider market. We're just the test population before it is rolled out in larger shores, a testbed to iron out the kinks in the plan to dominate every facet of our life.
This is the end of our liberty, the end of our fr
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Re: Epic Fail (Score:2)
I have seen far too many CHAINED stories of the following variety:
1. "Let's collect all this data! It might help us catch one terrorist!"
2. "The only people who have to fear this data are criminals, so go back to the San Terradino Free University."
3. News in YRO: "Today an employee lost the laptop with 5 million records of the tracking database."
4. Anonymous posts the database on the net.
5. Everyone starts blogging. "Ooh, I wonder why you went to the Red Light District, hmm?"
We're headed towards a Sixties-i
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"And what if the government makes travel a crime?"
Strangely ironic if they did - given the country was founded on forced transportation of criminals.
Just saying.
This is coming from a 7th generation Austrailan. ;P
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The sad untold truths about being a grammar-nazi.
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The coriolis force does NOT affect how water spins down a drain.
As I said, that is an urban legend. (Maybe YOU need to learn your science.) In fact my water drains one way 50% of the time, and the other way the other 50% of the time.
Yes (Score:5, Funny)
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well since Australia really is nothing but an overgrown prison anyway I'd say they're wasting their money.
This will also look good to all those people that were thinking of emigrating there. This study was probably funded by the Canadian government ;)
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Something similar is currently happening along the Mexican / Texas border ;)
And I hear they're trying to increase the average IQ of Alaska by moving some of their people to Washington...
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If only we had more data available, we could stop all crime!
but what would we do without politicians?!
oh, you mean, if only THEY had more data...
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It's perfectly possible for too much data to actually hinder activities such as crime prevention and investigation. Someone who dosn't realise this is halfway to creating a positive feedback loop already.
Re:No ... (Score:5, Insightful)
No, crime will stop when the second to last person dies.
Re:No ... (Score:4, Funny)
I don't know about that. When I am all alone some of things I do to myself are a crime too :)
Re:No ... (Score:4, Interesting)
I disagree. Anything you do to yourself, since nobody else is harmed, is not a crime.
The only reason certain "self" activities like masturbation, smoking dope, or committing suicide are outlawed is because we got a bunch of petit-dictators (aka control freaks) who want to control everybody else. There's no justifiable reason to outlaw these activities as long as the only person I am harming.... is myself.
"No person has a right to harm another. And that's all the government should restrain him." - Thomas Jefferson
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Unfortunately Johnny Law disagrees with you. Things you do to yourself can be crimes, whether they *should* be or not is the question.
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We're talking about the last person left on the planet, so either there is no Johnny Law or they're it. I guess that person could make laws against their own behaviour but that is a matter for themself.
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Aaah but you'd be the de facto king (or other term if you wish, you're the king!) and so you could declare any law you want. Now while you COULD make everything you do illegal, it'd be a funny thing to do.
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Not if that last person is into necrophilia.........
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Not if the last person alive busts him/herself for growing and using marihuana!
Australia Card? (Score:5, Informative)
From the summary: "support for Australia's version of the national ID card is waning." Um, what national ID card?
So what exactly is the Hawke government going to do now?
Re:Australia Card? (Score:5, Informative)
The closest it got to being implemented was in 1985 during the Hawke government's Australia Card bill. This was at the height of the Hawke Labor government's popularity, and it got the government into so much trouble and lost the government huge capital clout. Hawke dissolved the parliament and held new elections, but still was unable to pass the bill. Later on, a Royal Commission heavily criticised the idea and put the mater to rest. See this [wikipedia.org] for more details.
ANPR is right now, a "scoping study". Australia is nowhere close to perfect, but it has strong civil institutions, and you can make sure that heads will roll and blood will spill if this gets anywhere close to being proposed as a bill. Since then the law has moved in the complete opposite direction. The Privacy Act (1988) specifically mentions that no unique identifier issued by a government agency or corporation can be used by another entity for the purpose of identification. In practice, this means things such as driver's license number, a Tax File Number (equivalent to U.S SSN), or the medicare number can not be used by any corporation or agency other than the one which issued it in the first place, for identification.
Right now, this is a classic example in Australia of the state vs. individual liberties, taught in any university course about identity and privacy. I've met many 'ordinary' (read: not politically active) people across all fields of society, from social workers to lawyers and IT managers, and even the newer generation who is too young to remember the debate first hand (like myself) is definitely acquainted with the subject and its implications. So, unless the poster somehow managed to time travel from 1985, "public support for national card in Australia is wanning" is like saying "public support for Hillary's health care bill is wanning" or "public support for president Nixon is wanning".
The issue did come to surface once again, after former Liberal (which here means Conservative) Prime Minister Howard made some comments about it in 2005 after the London bombings, but even then it was heavily frowned upon and both parties knew better than to include it into their agenda.
Australia is nowhere close to perfect, but it has strong civil institutions. This is a "scoping study". The moment the study is published, if it recommends anything remotely close to implementing CimTrack's ANPR, you can make sure that heads will roll and blood will spill in the electorate.
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this means things such as driver's license number, a Tax File Number (equivalent to U.S SSN), or the medicare number can not be used by any corporation or agency other than the one which issued it in the first place, for identification.
What about a license plate to a car?
Australia Choices? (Score:3, Insightful)
Certainly a reasonable post. However note to a man not one has discussed to the other side of the issue. How far and by what means should law enforcement do it's job without constituents lambasting them for their failures (and they will most assuredly fail)? A weighty question, but then privacy is weighty and plenty have commentary on that.
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There is no scheme, legislation or proposal in Australia or any of its states for a national ID card.
We possibly got close with the "Access Card" though. This is, i think, what the summary was refering to. http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,24897,19450464-15441,00.html [news.com.au]
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The Privacy Act (1988) specifically mentions that no unique identifier issued by a government agency or corporation can be used by another entity for the purpose of identification. In practice, this means things such as driver's license number, a Tax File Number (equivalent to U.S SSN), or the medicare number can not be used by any corporation or agency other than the one which issued it in the first place, for identification.
Interesting theory, but your TFN is probably known by your employer, your bank, centrelink (social security), your superannuation fund as well as the tax office. Of course, you don't have to give it, you could just pay 46.5% tax instead. Now that's freedom of choice to keep your privacy! With the growth of the Family Tax Benefit and other centrelink payments a very large proportion of the population is on some form of government payment. Since many of them have the government take it from one hand as PAYG t
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Gee, I wish the US had politiicans as interested in privacy and personal freedoms, as Australia does.
Yes, I believe you do. Being a native American who migrated to Australia 25 years ago, I can claim a bit of insight. The thing is, Australian politicians are mostly Australians. This means they mostly understand that being too nosy without cause will result in a cluster of friends explaining all about drop bears when you regain consciousness.
Our EZ passes are called "eTAGs"
something we can use (Score:2, Funny)
load the band up onto the back of a flatbed truck, then hoon around while pretending to perform.
request the resulting footage under the freedom of information laws, then release as the video to your latest single.
I have only one thing to say. (Score:3, Funny)
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Alternatively you can just mount the kerb, it's allot easier.
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That's why they need *more* cameras, so the other cameras will catch you doing that.
I'm all for this system (Score:3, Funny)
but only if it's to tag known criminals.
That means the politicians have to get one first.
Re:I'm all for this system (Score:5, Insightful)
I know you were kind of joking, but I think that would be a great test for any new law like this. Something to go in the constitution. Any politician voting to approve any new monitoring law has to make all data collected about them (and their family?) publicly available in as near to real time as possible for the duration of their term of office, and a few years afterward, just to make sure.
If the law gets in, the monitoring is only put in on a trial basis for (say) 6 months, after which the politicians are given the opportunity to change their mind about their vote (eg the law is put to vote again).
If any politician doesn't want to vote for such a law on that basis, then that's probably a pretty good indicator that the law is too intrusive.
Hey, I am serious! (Score:2)
Privacy Masks? (Score:3, Interesting)
People will start wearing masks.
Personally, I have always wanted an excuse to wear a burqa. Yes, I am serious too. When we get to the point that facial recognition is everywhere I am just going to start obscuring my face. If I have to do that then I want to be comfortable doing it. Naked underneath a burqa seems to be a good place to start. I am only half kidding.
That will be a pretty weird looking world when you have to protect yourself head to toe to obtain a little privacy.
You think it won't happen? You think I am overdoing it a little? They are going to keep that data for FIVE YEARS. You think they won't sell access to it, illegally or otherwise? Of course they will. You better not cheat on your wife or girlfriend. Go to happy finish massage parlors in the middle of day. Basically do anything you want to be private, since it will be a trivial matter to find out EVERYWHERE you have been for the last 5 years.
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"You better not cheat on your wife or girlfriend. Go to happy finish massage parlors in the middle of day. Basically do anything you want to be private, since it will be a trivial matter to find out EVERYWHERE you have been for the last 5 years."
There IS a way to deal with that, which is to flaunt that which would normally be restrained by "shame" and conventional mores. Grow an "outlaw biker" (the real ones) attitude and just don't give a fuck, and encourage others to behave likewise. Creative ways to mani
Re: "Outlaw attitudes" (Score:2)
Except that "Outlaw attitudes" tend to be frowned upon by employers. Oops.
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I thought of that too, except that it's already outlawed to wear most types of masks in public "because then we can't ID you if you *might* be a criminal!!"
But yes, I see this as a major flashpoint, and it would open up the next fashion wave.
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That is why you wear a burqa.
1) It is an expression of your religious beliefs.
2) If they demand to lift up the burqa, you inform them before hand you are naked and request a female officer.
3) If the female officer wishes to know why you have a penis, you tell her that you born that way but medical science will correct God's mistake soon enough.
Believe it or not, ALL of that will fly in court. It does already. Look up case law (in the US at least) about transvestites and pre-op transexuals having rights to
Time for the sunglasses, false beard and large hat (Score:2)
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How about tinted windows? Harsh Australian sun and all that.
Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)
Use IR laser diodes (Score:3, Interesting)
An IR laser diode that is left unfocused will do the trick.
It won't zap the sensor, but unless they have used a decent IR filter it will saturate the chip to the point of not registering anything else.
Reasons why you may want to avoid doing this:
- no idea if there will be retinal damage if someone else looks at it
- ANY camera will get upset, so an traffic monitoring will show up your car as worthy of close inspection
- AFAIK, anything that hinders reading your license plate by whatever means is illegal (it i
Re: Use IR laser diodes (Score:2)
That's an interesting point, because that differs per country. I live in a country where I can just order such a laser out of a catalog and use it - no limit on acquisition (well, to a limit - importing some of the more powerful versions like the stuff sold at wickedlasers would probably require justification).
However, where I would get in trouble is the consequences of that use. If I blind someone, or (as per topic) I use it to prevent camera recording of, say, my license plate or me (they check for seat
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Re:Countermeasures? (Score:4, Insightful)
"Jcr is a suspect for damaging government property, because the camera was working just fine as of 11:38:13 seconds and ceased to work at 11:38:15 after his vehicle passed."
Gang,
in its various incarnations including the rest of YRO, this is *the* signature theme of our century. It's gonna take something really culturally decisive to resolve this. Simple "low level" tricks will not quite work.
The reason why is that cumulatively, the ideas proposed so far have been logically inconsistent! Unfortunately, prosecuting attorneys seem to enjoy crushing people with logically inconsistent motivations.
I don't have the answers. All I know is that the macro problem is *really tough*.
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I'm okay with this, IF.... (Score:2)
I'm actually okay with this, assuming its all automated, and the police require a warrant to gain any information from the system (and they can only get the information specified by the warrant).
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If the police want they can break into my home, use a confiscated weapon (not declared) and then kill all of us. They probably won't get caught. And yet I trust them not to do this. Having cameras is the least of what I trust the police with.
Unfortunately... (Score:2)
The thing people who try to impose crap like this never seem to realize is that it's easy to track honest people as they go about their daily business. People with bad intent can usually defeat systems like this with about five minutes' thought. Meanwhile, the information being collected infallibly winds up being spread around to friends of the collectors. Canadian Social Insurance Numbers were assigned exclusively for tax purposes. Now, you get video store clerks asking for your SIN when you apply for
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yeah right, so all that will do is increase the false positive rate.
partial prints are just that, partials and should not be used for ID purposes, but hey, what do I know.
In some countries it seems to not matter who they get behind bars, as long as there is somebody associated with the crime it's good enough.
Same with DNA testing, it's best at *freeing* people, unless there is an exact match.
Getting very few crime cases solved is going to bring you full tilt into a police state.
See 'England'...
Re:ANPR already in UK (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeh but thats counting all of the private entity Cameras. There seems to be a widespread myth these days that every camera you see everywhere is linked together. So that perhaps a mean with a white beard and an over exuberant use of visa vis can watch us 24/7.
A fraction of the cameras are owned and controlled by the government and even then, from the limited information ive obtained from watching crime programs, getting detailed information accross even county borders isnt easy.
Take off the tinfoil hat please.
Re:ANPR already in UK (Score:5, Informative)
Im not trying to disappoint the CCTV-Tinfoilhatters abroard in the US, but nobody sits in a room like Lex Luthor spying on individuals and following them about their business with camera. It is an extremely BORING pastime. The guys running these networks generally spend all their time releasing remote doors, monitoring queue lengths, opening car parking barriers and signing out keys for storerooms.
or reading The Sun.
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I don't understand why people insist upon putting cameras everywhere. The terrorists that struck on 9/11 walked past several security cameras, and not one of them was flagged. They still boarded the plane & committed their crime.
Cameras are worthless, except for very simplistic uses like issuing automatic speeding tickets.
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Cameras aren't best used for realtime monitoring in some big room.
They're best used for retroactive analysis. Somebody becomes a person of interest, and now once you know where they were at any point in history you can find out everywhere they've ever been, everybody they've ever talked to, everywhere anybody they've ever talked to has been, and where they are right now.
I'm sure the first place we'll see these abused is in civil cases. Divorce cases come to mind very quickly.
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Cameras are best used for retroactive analysis. If somebody is suspected [of being part of the French Resistance], and you know they [bombed a Nazi munitions factory], you can find out everywhere they've ever been, everyone they've ever talked to, and possibly uncover their [secret meeting place to eradicate the French Patriots once and for all.]
Cameras are simple spying, the tool of control freak politicians, and they make the fight for liberty nearly-impossible.
We should not give the government the po
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Here in the US, footage from private cameras can be obtained with a search warrant, or for civil cases, a motion of discovery can be made, with threats of criminal charges coming next should the footage not be present. At best, one can say they have a destruction policy of x days of footage to protect themselves.
So, in an indirect way, cameras are often linked together, as an attorney or DA can demand footage from a number of places to put together a gestalt base of evidence.
Re:Welcome to the Global Village (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, surveillance *can* be used by a police state, but it can be used against the state as well.
Not if the police state makes it unlawful for anyone but themselves to use surveillance. In the UK, you'll more than likely have your camera taken off you if the police spot you filming them.
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Not if the police state makes it unlawful for anyone but themselves to use surveillance. In the UK, you'll more than likely have your camera taken off you if the police spot you filming them.
Please cite the law that allows them to do this.
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Please cite the law that allows them to do this
Simple: it's behaviour likely to cause a breach of the peace. IANAL, but this covers everything the police don't want you to do. They don't have to obtain a conviction - they merely arrest you, take you for questioning, confiscate your camera then let you go without charge some hours later.
You will then have been summarily imprisoned for a period of time - although you were never found guilty of any crime.
This is purely deterrence (and very effective it is, too) to stop anyone from doing anything they do
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IANAL, but this covers everything the police don't want you to do.
And how many times have the police been had to account for doing this in a court of law? If you allow your police to abuse your rights, you don't deserve the rights.
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And what's equally common is not doing anything about police harassment it seems. If you allow them this control over you, then you can't be surprised when they exert it.
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Please cite the court records of your cases where you sued to prevent this.
Says the guy who was thrown up against the wall by the state police in Oregon, 1976. Talk is cheap, asshole.
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Please cite the court records of your cases where you sued to prevent this.
I've never had a desire or need to video-tape the police. I don't even own equipment that would allow me to do so. I simply said, when asked, what I would do if I ever were in such a situation.
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There's a good chance you would get arrested.
Then you get to sue them for false arrest.
What would you have done? Serious question
I'd have asserted my rights in a non-violent, calm manner and then found a civil rights lawyer to sue the police for any abuses of their position.
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You know what? If you sue and win, the taxpayers pay the bill. The cops don't. Even if you win, the cop who harrassed you doesn't lose his job. Lawsuits only work as a punishment when the sued parties lose when the lose. This does not happen when you sue governmental entities. If you sue the government, the taxpayer loses. Which is you.
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the taxpayers pay the bill. The cops don't. Even if you win, the cop who harrassed you doesn't lose his job
If it's as widespread as people in this thread indicate, the government wouldn't be able to afford the lawsuits without sending everyone to the poor house, which would result in massive lay-offs which would result in a lot more people on the dole (we actually look after those who can't find employment), which would result in even more taxes being needed, etc, etc.
Instead they'd have to force the police to stop doing the expensive behaviour or make it legal (in which case you've got a more serious problem).
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Of course, surveillance *can* be used by a police state
You know what else can be used by a police state? Pens! Clearly any country that uses a pen is a police state.
(not arguing with you, simply backing up your point).
Re:Welcome to the Global Village (Score:4, Interesting)
By the way, did you know that before the first world war, you could travel and live ANYWHERE in the world freely and without restriction? Passports were put in place to control the flow of people during the war. Guess what? The legislation was never revoked after the war. We just live with it, and it has got progressively More suppressing over the years. Do you really think governments have your interests at heart when it comes to personal freedoms?
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Or go out in the bush where the wildlife crossing signs accumulate bullet holes.
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Hm-m-m. Tin foil hat tight tonight?