EU Plans to Require Biometrics for Visitors 238
bushwhacker2000 writes to tell us that the EU may soon be requiring travelers to provide biometric data before crossing into Europe. They are trying to soften the blow by offering "streamlined" services for frequent travelers but the end result seems the same. "The proposals, contained in draft documents examined by the International Herald Tribune and scheduled to go to the European Commission on Wednesday, were designed to bring the EU visa regime into line with a new era in which passports include biometric data. The commission, the EU executive, argues that migratory pressure, organized crime and terrorism are obvious challenges to the Union and that the bloc's border and visa policy needs to be brought up to date."
Hmm (Score:4, Funny)
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Well, to be fair, we started it. [bbc.co.uk]
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Re:Hmm (Score:4, Interesting)
I think that a lot of people (myself included) who have problems with these "intrusive programs" aren't dealing with the realities of the situations that they are implemented to deal with. We're all worried about these frightful "what if" scenarios. We don't realize that there are some situations in which "intrusive" tactics are required. For example I do some community service in Long Beach, CA. The place where I do community service is a "very bad" neighborhood. The police are actively doing what they can to deal with the problems (drug dealing, auto burglaries, gang intimidation, etc.) Part of what the police do is they stop anybody who they see riding around on bikes. They stop the people to figure out who they are and what they are doing in the neighborhood. On one hand, doing so is probably a violation of some "inherent rights." On the other hand, the police are doing what they need to do to reduce the number of convincted criminals running around the neighborhood.
I don't really buy into the whole War on Terror crap that is being shoved down our throats because I am well read enough and educated enough to realize that our government created al Qaeda and our government actively supports governments that oppress their people to the point where they become "terrorists." So although "terrorist" might not be a good label to put on freedom fighters actively resisting the new world order, the label definitely does fit some organizations that are terrorizing communities right now, right here in the United States. Organizations like MS13, the Mexican mafia, etc.
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Just how exactly do you think the police should be "keeping track" of the criminals on probation? Maybe we should put cameras on every corner and implant GPS tracking devices in everyone ever convicted of a felony? Is that what you're proposing?
Have you ever lived in any
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Rich.
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Oh, you mean those are the problems.
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Most of them came here originally when their families were granted amnesty by Reagan because of all the shady stuff his administration was up to with the Iran-Contra nonsense. In the case of MS13, a lot of the original members actually got their military training through the School of the Americas program ironically enough.
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That's not a biometric passport. That's just a regular passport with all the information digitally encoded. Your name, date of birth, picture, etc, are all available to anyone who opens the first page and looks at it. Your DNA/fingerprints aren't. They also aren't in the digital part of your
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ah sir, just bend over and keep your pants down - this is a two part deal - no two anal linings are alike and we need to be sure you didn't shove weapons of mass destruction up there!
ah, sir, is that what I think it is? I need to remove and confiscate this socket wrench set and duct tape... you can keep the hamster, but you really should transport pets in a pet container. Have a nice day!
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I loved my trip to U.S.A. and would like to return there in the near future, but it really spoils the experience when i'm treated like a criminal who has to answer a form with such ridiculous question as "Are you making your trip with any intent of committing a crime in the United
Have you tried door #3? (Score:2)
Rather than "evil" or "helplessness" have you tried demanding that all who travel be responsible for themselves and their co-travelers? I.E. do it the old fashioned way. If you're weak, pathetic and can't handle yourselves, travel with those who are. If you demand that you and yours be helpless, don't ge
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Wonder what they're going to do when a foreign resident arrives with their Japanese children? The children qualify to go through the residents' line, but the parent doesn't? That, or the treat the children as second-class citizens as well? Cool.
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Falls rome, falls the world (Score:5, Insightful)
One of the reasons I'm so worried to see the downward trend towards fascism in the United States is that in many ways Europe is not going in the opposite direction, it is simply lagging behind. Sure, I came to live in Switzerland, but I'm always seeing the same political abuses start to happen here just a few years after they start to happen in the United States, the same pro-corporations laws like the DMCA and the same trampling on people's rights, just a bit delayed.
Somehow this happening in the EU does not really surprise me.
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You know, I really don't think someone who lives in a country that actively collaborated with actual fascists should be slinging that kind of abuse at a country that fought them.
Oh, that's ripe! You're suggesting that the USA has clean hands, never supported or installed tyrants and corporatists, that Prescott Bush and his cronies didn't fund the Nazi war machine, that IBM had nothing to do with the Holocaust, that Operation Paperclip was just a liberation, that the fascists who attempted a coup on FDR met justice and were punished (look up Smedley Butler).
One of the most disappointing things about America the Brave, the Beautiful, is the perverse revisionist history that its pa
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Let ye who is without sin cast the first stone, and all that.
To the victors go the spoils, and better yet, they get to write the histories. That's the way it has always been, and is the way it will always be. One of the most disappointing things I notice about people in other countries (yes, especially Europeans of various stripes) is the fundamental hypocrisy t
Re:Falls rome, falls the world (Score:4, Insightful)
Are you aware that pretty much everyone who was involved in the success and failures of WWII is dead? That blaming a country now is like blaming America for the genocide of the native Americans whereas the people involved with the war in Iraq and the Patriot Act is alive and well.
I mean can you really blame people for something that happened before they were born?
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Let ye who is without sin cast the first stone, and all that.
Well, yes, that was my original point. Perhaps the giant chip on your shoulder is hard to see around.
To the victors go the spoils, and better yet, they get to write the histories. That's the way it has always been, and is the way it will always be.
OK, baloney to that manifest destiny crap. Progress in history, polisci, anthropology, sociology, and the other social studies has been a worthwhile struggle to rise above that.
Just remember that we never asked you to, never claimed to be better than you (even though we often acted better than you) and don't expect us to feel sorry for you when you finally realize the truth. Deal with it. We won't lose any sleep over your discomfiture, believe me. Furthermore, much of Europe's history has been bloodier than ours (you call Bush a tyrant, but frankly Europe has it all over the U.S. in the tyrant department, you guys are true experts at breeding warmongering headcases.) Deal with that too, when you grow up enough to turn that critical eye upon yourself.
Ahaha, I'm a Canuck! and you're typifying the arrogant American! You do claim superiority and high mindedness, that's the point of this thread. We can poke at you all we want, you'll just blame us anyway. Hypocritical self-re
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never claimed to be better than you ... but frankly Europe has it all over the U.S. in the tyrant department
I'm confused - are you acknowledging present-day tyranny in the U.S. or not?
when you grow up enough to turn that critical eye upon yourself.
Maturity is surely dealing with the current situation that one finds oneself in, as opposed to whining about the past and mud-slinging. Many Europeans have come on this discussion and acknowledged that what is happening vis-a-vis visas is wrong. Many Americ
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Well, that one, at least, I don't mind suggesting.
Prescott Bush was hired on at an investment firm that had already invested in Nazi Germany. This investment was initated by the firm's founder (ironically a Progressive, later FDR's ambassador to the Soviet Union) before Bush joined the firm. During his tenure at the firm, Bush was responsible for managing the firm's domestic portfolios here in the U.S. The firm's founder
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Conceded that Bush's ass was covered and the evidence of complicity is slim, though your faith in the good faith of investment bankers of the period is touching.
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What does their alleged good faith have to do with anything. Bush's roles and responsibilities are documented. The decision to invest in Nazi Germany was made without him, and he was never put in charge of that portfolio. If you want to play make-believe that Prescott Bush and his entire family are crypto-Nazis based on what some other guy was doin
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Where is he suggesting that?
to do with the Holocaust, that Operation Paperclip was just a liberation, that the fascists who attempted a coup on FDR met justice and were punished (look up Smedley Butler).
Did the coup succeed? Did the US end up gassing millions of Jews? No. And that's the difference.
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Did the coup succeed? Did the US end up gassing millions of Jews? No. And that's the difference.
It nearly succeeded, and only because one man, Smedley Butler, was loyal, did it fail. There were no legal repercussions, however, and in that sense, it did succeed: since the Du Ponts, U.S. Steel, General Motors, Standard Oil, Chase National Bank, and Goodyear etc. all remained in business and prospered. The BBC alleges that Prescott Bush was a backer as well.
The US rejected many jewish refugees, its industrialists did business with the Nazis, and IBM aided and abetted. The difference is one of degree,
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But it did not succeed, and that is what matters. And as a result, the US ended up fighting fascism, while the Europeans ended up murdering millions of Jews and other minorities.
The US rejected many jewish refugees, its industrialists did business with the Nazis, and IBM aided and abetted.
The US isn't the only place on the globe that should have accepted refugees. And prior to 1941, there was little reason, or legal means, for the US to stop US companies from doing business with the le
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Instead of replying to each of my interlocutors in turn, I'm going to reply to myself - but it's really a response to all of you.
Of course it's hyperbolic nonsense to call the 21st century Swiss fascist. But it's interesting that none of you called me on that one. Instead, you all busily missed the point, which was that it's also nonsense to call the 21st century USA fascist, or even "descending into fascism". It's an insult to the victims of actual fascism to say so.
Is the data stored on the passport? (Score:2, Interesting)
Of course, the human element on the manual c
Presumably... (Score:4, Insightful)
The chipped passports have a copy of what is printed on the face plus the extra biometric bits, all of which is also stored in a database, including reconciled entries for your previous visits through passport control. If the printed information or chip output differ from the central copy, they know it has been tampered with. This is not a terribly large departure from what already has been happening for decades when they scan your passport or punch in the number to pull up the record manually. The only difference in any of this is that they're adding a couple extra fields that don't really lend themselves to visual inspection. The cross-border data sharing and centralized collection within each country isn't remotely a new idea.
Besides, the more "secure" the document gets in the sense of positively linking it to the person carrying it, the less frightful the consequences of losing it. Not long ago, if you were roughly the same height/weight/age/gender, you could pretty well just pick a passport out of a stack provided by the hotel maid service. I mean, 6'1" brown/brown 180lbs 30yo male isn't a very precise set of biometrics, which doesn't sound too terrible until someone matching your description smuggles drugs into the country on your passport before you realize it went missing. If they can solve the question of "is this REALLY you" with an iris scan and a fingerprint, roughly 99.9% of the stolen document industry will disappear leaving only the most ridiculous James Bond worthy scenarios to worry about.
The bottom line is that the document is an assertion of the holder's identity. You have a personal interest in ensuring that you are the only one who can use it to successfully make that assertion.
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Or the chip got scrambled going through the xray machine.
Or is just out and out defective.
Or the chimp doing database maintenance screwed up.
Or someone has a tampered with the central database.
If they can solve the question of "is this REALLY you" with an iris scan and a fingerprint, roughly 99.9% of the stolen document industry will disappear leaving only the most ridiculous James Bond worthy scenario
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Or is just out and out defective.
Or the chimp doing database maintenance screwed up.
Or someone has a tampered with the central database.
Or some fool lost a copy of this database they don't even need to lose a portable computer. All they need to lose is a piece of plastic, metal, varnish and dye worth some utterly trivial amount of money.
Nevermind that peoples records get mixed up all the time in the real world databases we already have, not to
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Besides, the more "secure" the document gets in the sense of positively linking it to the person carrying it, the less frightful the consequences of losing it.
Yeah, because a few years ago the world was "frightful". Oh hang on, no it wasn't. Travel was far more civilized, governments focused on freedom and happiness, and technology boomed (we travelled to the moon!).
Rich.
Same result (Score:5, Funny)
Translation: we want Americans to know what it feels like when we try and enter their country.
It would be much more fun... (Score:2)
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Which begs the question... What voltage do EU tasers run at?
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Or even "Patrician" and "Plebeian"
Nit: Since when ... (Score:4, Insightful)
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It's not like this stuff is new. It's just getting more complete - and intrusive.
These ARE documents used by governments to certify to other governments that they'll take this person back, exactly who it is they're certifying, and where he's been the last few years.
Copyright vs Security (Score:2, Interesting)
Sure you can claim that (Score:2)
Let's open a can of worms... (Score:2)
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I also wonder whether fingerprints are truly unique? Perhaps there's just a very huge number of variants. It's not like it easy to be sure is it? Just because no-one's found duplicates doesn't mean there aren't any -- after all I bet no-one's even looking for dupes. What if they weren't unique?
What if each of us has at least one person out there with identical fingerprints? Food for though huh? Probably would even stand up in court if you had a good enough lawyer.
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We all assume they are unique, and now it is a widely accepted fact, that few would ever think to challenge -- but
The level of paranoia is growing exponentially (Score:5, Insightful)
Personally, I think this nonsense has more to do with xenophobia, racism, and political control than with combating actual terrorism.
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And the UK is currently leading the competition. I doubt if even China or North Korea could catch them now.
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Racism and xenophobia are greatly feared in Europe. In some countries you can be sentenced to fines or imprisonment for saying "racist" or "xenophobic" things.
Really? I actually hear racist comments very often. Like my dutch teacher who said that every muslim was a radical. Like newspaper stories telling about how unfortunate it is not to be able to arrest some orthodox muslims because they haven't committed any crime yet.
I use quotation marks because actual racism and xenophobia are virtually non-existent these days.
There are whole political parties in Belgium and the Netherlands defending the right to discriminate people. Not on the contents of their characther, but on the color of their skin. Mark Rutte, top man of the dutch VVD, was condemned for rac
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The USA wants a LOT more from the EU (Score:2, Interesting)
perhaps we shall goto China or Russia this year, none of this fingerprint and eye photo crap at the US border and as a bonus we get treated like guests not criminals
so say goodbye to the US tourism industry RIP 2008
The US administration is pressing the 27 governments of the European Union to sign up for a range of new security measures for transatlantic travel, including allowing armed guards on all flights from Eu
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What's next? Razor wire fences around the entire continent with border checkpoints? Papers, please. When did the EU become Nazi Germany again?
I can tell you right now that if this passes, this summer's trip to Italy will be my last European trip. I've f*cking had it with governments treating everyone like a criminal, and I won't spend my hard-earned money to support any EU nation that signs on for this bullshit. I encourage everyone of a like mind to do the same.
Remember, you have a choice in vacat
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Worse, the guy taking the photos was aggressive and treated me with suspicion - and to think I was going there to teach students at one of your most well reputed technical universities, complete with invitation in hand.
Oh
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1. Collect data
2. Make a law that allows using this data for solving most brutal crimes
3. Make a law that allows using this data for solving any crime
4. Make new laws to "protect" the citisen.
5. Film next season of Big Brother on the streets.
6. Profit
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Kudos to the US and the EU for making us one of the best places to hold a convention in the modern world!
BIO data? I think I know what I'll give them. (Score:5, Funny)
the doctor says, "I'll need a stool stample, a blood sample, a urine sample and a semen sample."
the guy says to the doc, "here's my underwear; YOU sort it out!"
something tells me, though, that customs folks don't quite have any sense of humor... but that's the kind of 'bio data' I'd like to give them.
Great idea... (Score:2, Insightful)
Oh no! (Score:2)
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A golden era of travel is coming to an end :-( (Score:5, Interesting)
I've just arrived in Japan, which has - following pressure from the US - introduced fingerprinting at the border for all foreigners (including those with residence rights, not just visitors). While the process was relatively smooth (put your index fingers on a little machine), it's been my first contact with the world of paranoid "anti-terrorist" biometrics and for me marks the end of an era where international travel has been an expression of freedom.
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The number of people protesting this is kinda sad, given that it's clear that those people must be Americans who don't realize that the US DoI has been doing exactly this for a number of years now.
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I've got "vested interests" in Japan and have no option really, apart from abandoning a large part of my life.
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More of the same gruel (Score:2, Insightful)
The 'Empire' is slowly moving from Utopian Europe to a darker phase.
And yes, I know, I know, if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear. Only these people love to create new things wrong you may have done. In the UK now, if you smoke, drink,
long tradition (Score:2)
When was this "Utopian Europe" ever realized? In the 50's? In the 60's? In the 70's? Every decade has had its own paranoias and its own intrusion into civil liberties.
Nor is the concern about this new either. Look at all the dystopian SciFi from the 70's.
Is this really practical? (Score:2, Interesting)
Biometrics sounds like a good idea, but I can never justify the single point of failure involved with it. It seems like it would be very easy to get false negetives.
I use usb keys to authenticate on my desktops, and if a key were ever to fail, i have a backup in the safe. The key responds to the encryption keys stored on the flash disk, and uses the serial number of the device as an added protection against copying. This is a simple setup of pam_us
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Of course there will be false negatives, arse-loads of them. They will, however, not get corrected because that would require these assclowns admitting they did something wrong. See, doing this with encryption keys, that might make an ounce of sense, but it doesn't help their real goal, which is and always has been control.
I really wanted to see Europe... (Score:2)
When you add that to my "do not go here, crazy people" list I basically can visit.....Bermuda?
Stupid world...beautiful things barred from me because...
wait a minute...
if I ignore all of these stupid laws.
hell yes
What is the reason why ? (Score:2)
Lessons of history (Score:4, Informative)
The Hollerinth Tabulator machines streamlined the amounts of data that could be processed, thus they could ask more questions.
Some with insight, forsaw this increase is information gathering, and altered their answers to reflect a non-jewish ancestry.
However, they only needed 1 parent or grandparent to give the "correct" answer to link them to a Jewish ancestry(1/16th I believe).
Similarly today, there is little we can do. We are, as we would say in New Zealand, buggered.
We apologize deelpy. (Score:2)
I'm really sorry. For years I think the US "security" policy sucks big time and now I see that the EU is doing the exact same thing. It really makes me sad.
European Eunion? (Score:4, Interesting)
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Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, Denmark
Estonia, Finland, France, Germany
Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy
Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta
Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal
Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden
Not So Funny When The Tables Are Turned, Eh? (Score:2, Insightful)
I hope this current news item forces these folks to realize that this isn't just a US problem, it's a global problem with paranoia. And until there's global political climate change, flying internationally is just going to become more and more of a hassle for everyone.
for those who automatically say migrants are bad (Score:5, Interesting)
Some people say immigration is bad because it takes jobs away from the the natives. Migration control programmes such as those discussed are very often fuelled by such fears.
In a healthy free market economy, jobs are held by those who can contribute more to the economy for the least cost. It has been my observation that some people, once achieving some comfortable and secure lifestyle, stop innovating and become lazy sluggards, who, even if they spend 8-10 or more hours "at work", they produce little or no real tangible economic value. PHBs are a good example: While the economic contribution of a good manager is to provide sound planning and organisational design, PHBs merely walk around the office carrying a cup of tea, literally doing nothing. In theory, their contribution could become visible someday in a department or company crisis when a decision would be crucial, but my experience tells me that most PHBs would be unable to respond to any crisis in any intelligent way, and most of them stay employed thanks to connections and nepotism. The end result for the economy is great waste, inefficiency, lack of skills, and the development of a passive approach to life which hinders entrepreneurship, initiative, and innovation.
In such an economy, where a great number of people have learnt to live their life without earning it with their ability, thanks to nepotism, status, various social structures, etc, the appearance of a few migrants can have positive effects from an economic point of view: Migrants come, some of them having useful skills, and they renovate the economy. When employers notice that the migrants have real skills and are willing to work for lower wages, they will eventually fire the lazy sluggards and force them to take a more active approach to life and learn new skills, ie to become again actively useful in the economy. In this way, migrants help counterbalance the tendency of many humans to stop innovating once they achieve some security.
Knowing this, a certain number of migrants is not only tolerable but in fact should be highly wanted and desirable, as they have a legitimate and useful economic role to play in our economies (to wake up our lazy fellows). And it is not only highly educated migrants that should be in demand: Migrants with low education should be welcome as well, as they often help to fill gaps in an economy whose members increasingly move towards the service sector and higher-paying jobs.
There are, of course, some dangers from the influx of huge numbers of migrants. One danger is sociological and has its basis in animal behaviour: You can see that, for example, ants are aggressive towards ants from different colonies. Similarly, humans in general do have some passive aggressiveness hidden somewhere in their mind towards persons from different nations. There is, of course, some biological basis for this, as it helps teams of humans (tribes) secure resources and maintain family lineages. But in the modern era, with our developed economies and globalised communications, we need not worry so much about these concerns that belong to the prehistory eras. What we should do is to take care to not allow this passive subconscious aggressiveness become an activated state of mind and infect the conscious mind. This can happen to most people, without them realising it, when great numbers of migrants come into a country and interact with the locals. Seeing one migrant does not raise xenophobic tendencies, but suddenly seeing a thousand migrants out of your door may cause your subconscious tribal feelings to be activated and projected to the consciousness in a variety of ways (xenophobia, racism, economic protectionism, security paranoia, etc). When this happens to the majority of a native population, the results can be disastrous. We have seen it in history and such mistakes should not be repeated by civilised people.
So, how can we ensure that immigration results in positive economic contributions without triggering sociological problems?
What happens (Score:2)
Already happening at Heathrow - be warned. (Score:2)
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This is just tit-for-tat: the US requires the same things of Europeans entering the US, and the EU is returning the favor.
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We (from the EU) should have risen above this stupidity - but obviously we haven't.
An eye for an eye, in this case leaves everyone carrying ridiculous amounts of documentation (or maybe just staying at home).
politics as usual (Score:2)
If it were "tit-for-tat", it would only apply to US visitors and the Europeans would say that it was tit-for-tat (there isn't much point in doing it otherwise).
No, the EU is doing this for the same reasons the US is doing it. Whether they are good reasons is debatable, of course.
This is politics as usual: Europe follows the US pretty closely on privacy, policing, copyrights, and all tha
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Goooo canada tourism =D
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Someone will find a way to claim it.
FTFA:
"The United States routinely requires European citizens to submit fingerprints when crossing its borders and the commission's document notes that America plans to introduce an electronic travel-authorization system for people from countries like Britain, France and Germany that are in its Visa Waiver Program."
This is what they're talking about:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/11/usa.theairlineindustry [guardian.co.uk]
Some quotes:
"And within months the US department of homeland security is to impose a new permi
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Requiring visas for Americans may be tit-for-tat, but biometrics at EU borders for non-Americans is not.
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Yes, but now that the US government has paved the way, the European governments are coming to realize that they actually like the idea of tighter border controls
You are aware that there are no border controls between the countries of the Schengen Agreement [wikipedia.org]?
This includes 25 EU countries, Switzerland, Icaland and Norway (partially being introduced this year). While there are provisions in place to make up for that you don't need a passport, let alone a fingerprint to move between those countries.
and they find ready support in the population
And where exactly is the evidence to support this assertion?
In other words: You are sputtering uininformed rubbish.
Re:Great! (Score:4, Insightful)
Chad. They have no biometrics at the border - you can just stroll right in, with nary a fingerprint reader or retina scanner in sight.
Do bring a machete, though.
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Do bring a machete, though.
You probably don't want to take a knife to a gun fight.
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