FBI To Spend $1B Expanding Fingerprint Database 159
mytrip and other readers alerted us to news that the FBI is about to announce the awarding of a $1B, 10-year contract to expand its fingerprint database to incorporate other biometrics — palm prints, iris scans, scars, tattoos, possibly facial shape — "Whatever the biometric that comes down the road, we need to be able to plug that in and play," an FBI spokesman is quoted. Barry Steinhardt of the ACLU sounded the cautionary note: "This had started out being a program to track or identify criminals. Now we're talking about large swaths of the population — workers, volunteers in youth programs. Eventually, it's going to be everybody."
Superbad, anyone? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Superbad, anyone? (Score:4, Funny)
Nah, what they really need to do is have the ability to identify people by their genitals. See, by doing so, you could be forced to identify yourself in public, thus making you a sex offender, and thus voiding any human rights you had left. Of course, I'm just making random crap up, obviously, but I really feel their intentions are just as absurd.
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My first thought upon reading the article (yes, the title and the mandatory one more line) was "Big brother requires you to update your genital identification card yearly. When did you submit your last color picture?".
And there it is, in less than twenty posts my thread becomes obsolete before it's conception.
great idea (Score:3, Insightful)
After all, Terrorists are well known for co-operating fully with the authorities in providing their biometric data.
Oh wait....
Re:Superbad, anyone? (Score:5, Funny)
It indicates (Score:4, Interesting)
Overall, a simple tattoo can be described. But if they are electing to keep the biometrics that they are keeping, it would say that they will be making heavier use of cameras. My guess is that we will see a new law proposed (and probably passed since the dems are as yellow-liver as the pubs are corrupt) that allows the feds access to ALL streaming camera (banks, grocery stores, streets, stop lights, toll bothes, etc) 100% of the time. Patriot allowed access only when chasing a terrorist, but this next bill will say that all businesses must give 100% access no matter what.
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My two cents... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:My two cents... (Score:5, Insightful)
Not really - they wouldn't leave traces of the tattoo around.
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Don't be ridiculous. This is the information age. Subdermal RFIDs are far more efficient than tattooed numbers. Harder to remove, too, if you implant them deep enough.
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BTW, I believe the parent's comment is both satire and a possible "logical" step of the FBI prog
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The Mafia wants this (Score:5, Interesting)
Expect the entire database to be for sale world-wide in weeks.
And buy some EDS shares NOW.
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How about Senators? (Score:2)
biometrics is the future (Score:4, Informative)
Re:biometrics is the future (Score:4, Informative)
You'd think they'd go with IBM. Their track record supporting Hitler was so impressive:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/jun2001/ibm-j27.shtml [wsws.org]
But will they use linux?
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If only... (Score:1, Insightful)
If you've done nothing wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:If you've done nothing wrong (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course the other agenda ... (Score:3, Insightful)
They can always find some excuse to bring you in if they look hard enough.
Re:If you've done nothing wrong (Score:5, Interesting)
For the record, I do not live in Oakland, nor have I ever lived in Oakland, nor do I know exactly where Oakland is except that it's somewhere in the Bay Area that I haven't been since I was a child. And no matter how many times I tell the TSA guys that on my way into the United States, they continue to ask me every time.
But hey! Having people look through my underwear because they think I'm someone else makes me feel so safe!
small scale malice is the big issue (Score:5, Insightful)
You were probably only considering conspiracy theory type malice. But what you really have to be afraid of, is your neighbour Frank, the cop, who is jealous of your wife and would like to have you out of the way.
Lots of governement employees will have access rights to such a huge database. Human nature tells us that some of them will abuse the system.
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I agree that giving "cop-anybody" rights to huge amounts of personal information is probably a bad idea.
However I still am more in fear of incompetence and negligence. Take for example all the recent data leaks that were uncovered within the British government.
In addition our minister of justice here in Germany had two Laptops stolen from her apartment recently...of course none of which contained any classified or otherwis
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Looking down the road, I see this as small scale malice at first, but when there exists an all-inclusive DNA/ID database, it will be inevitable before someone gets the brilliant notion that no one owns their DNA, but borrows it from society's gene pool. This will bring about well-intentioned (or not) havoc in who decides what DNA is "beneficial" or better off culled? I'll be pushing up daisies long before that, thank Gaia...
DNA db != coding DNA (Score:3, Informative)
Currently a DNA database can only contain non-coding DNA. For 2 reasons :
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Re:If you've done nothing wrong (Score:5, Interesting)
Though I expect that was posted with the sole intent of stirring up some muddy water, that sort of mind-set is clearly dangerous. The problem here is that we're continuously loosing more and more of our rights which protect us from our government. A false identification of an average citizen or legitimate businessman visiting from another country who happens to closely resemble a terrorist, but actually isn't the real-deal, could lead to false imprisonment for years if not a life-time, and without habeas corpus (because they may not necessarily acknowledge your claimed citizenship is valid), there is no stopping them. Honest citizens do have something to be horribly upset about: being treated like a potential terrorist and having every aspect of ourselves and our belongings intruded upon for a false sense of security.
I'm even going to throw in the good old car analogy too. I happen to still have my old Honda Civic from high school. When I got it (the price was right, so I took what I could get at the time), it had the crappy fart-pipe on it, and it had some shiny designer rims. I ripped the fart-pipe off, but I didn't see any point in removing the rims since even plain steel rims can be relatively costly. When I drive that car, the police see a young Spanish guy in a Honda Civic with after-market rims, and typically follow me for a while, sometimes even until I'm out of their jurisdiction (I cross counties on my way too and from work every day). When I drive my other car, which is a plain Ford Focus, police never pay any mind to me what-so-ever. They clearly profile, no matter how much they try to deny it. If they ran my plate, they'd see I'm 100% clean, so why continue to follow me until I hit the county line only when I'm driving *that* car? The car gets good gas mileage, so there is still good value to driving it rather than selling it, and it's nice to have it as a spare if my primary car has to hit the shop. Still, I sometimes wonder what these guys are thinking. Do they really think I'm some sort of threat? Do they feel I'm doing something retarded like running drugs? Who knows? What I know is that I really loathe being profiled like that every time I drive that car, as I'm a honest citizen who has done nothing wrong. So am I afraid? Not no, but hell no. Am I pissed off, oh hell yes. Don't doubt for a moment that the same thing won't happen when they're eventually watching every step you make, as opposed to periodically patrolling around in a car. You should be pissed off too.
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They may not be following you in the expectation that you'd actually be stupid enough to do something, but for the purpose of intimidation - letting you know that they're there and they're in charge. They see you (wrongly) as someone to be controlled.
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They profile because they 1) are rational, and 2) have limited resources.
Some classes and races are f
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Some classes and races are far more likely to be bad guys than other classes and races. I'm sorry that you've been swept up in a category that you don't justifiably belong in... but it's not about you, or about *any* individual. It's about the numbers.
So, you are saying that the police are innumerate?
Because clearly a very large majority of these 'classes and races' are not 'bad guys.' So even if these 'classes and races' were 100x more likely to be 'bad guys' you are still looking at negligible differences on the order of 0.00001% vs 0.001% - which is not what I would consider effective use of limited resources.
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That still doesn't have to mean everyone has to know everything about me. My life is my business and no one elses. Other then that, since when do humans make no mistakes and mix ups?
Besides, if you really don't have anything to hide I pity you for your very boring life.
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Fingerprint identification is a human (computer assisted) task that people learn how to do, get better at but are never 100% accurate at (especially in marginal cases) The fingerprints used are quite often partial and the chance of error can be magnified greatly
DNA "fingerprinting" however is not normally subject to human error but is still quoted (correctly) as error value (e.g. the chance
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DNA samples can be contaminated, mis-filed, deliberately mis-itendified etc
It's just the process of matching is now purely mechanical
The published rates of mis-match (fingerprints did not match but system said they did) is 1% or in other words according to the Governments own figures a finge
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i.e. if the process is done perfectly every time and no mistakes are made, and you do the maximum testing (which is normally far too slow) then you get figures of 1 in 10^13
But note this assumes that there are no errors made in gathering the DNA, in the la
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If you are a modern peasant/corporate work and not a rich/modern noble with resources, of course you have something to fear. History teaches us to be fearful and paranoid because governments can radically change their minds within 2-3 generations. You aren't nearly as safe as you think you are.
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I'd imagine that most people drive better when they aren't nervous.
Is it useful? (Score:5, Insightful)
palm prints - can be removed in an acid bath and can be faked with latex or surgical silicone. Even systems that incorporate a variation on live finger detection can be fooled.
iris scans - Can be changed through the use of contact lenses.
Scars - a difficult one, but plastic surgury, make-up and latex can make them vanish or even create temporary ones.
Tattoos - Laser surgury can remove them, they can also be altered beyond recognition by professionals.
Possibly facial shape - can be altered through a variety of techniques
Sure, it would identify the average US citizen, but it would be useless against organised crime and terrorism.
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Even if you try to refuse and try to leave immigration to depart Japan, the Japanese authorities will forceable fingerprint you, and then likely throw you in jail before deporting you. The Japanese authorities will also throw you in jail if you do anything with your fingerprints, such as dyes, acid, or pineapple juice, or tamper with the fingerprint readers. Unless all of your f
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The guy just told you that you could be beaten and incarcerated for not being fingerprinted, and you're worried about the USA? That sounds like willful ignorance to me.
FYI, for a foreigner, it's worse in the USA.
My father (who's from Uruguay like me, and a board member of a prominent international organization) has visited both Japan and the US, and from what he described, the process is far more denigrating in the US.
Not to mention tales of people from my country being abused, incarcerated and returned from the US, while no-one that I know of has been turned away from Japan.
MISINFORMATION (Score:2, Informative)
Although I am always cynical about Wikipedia entries and who really edits them:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accenture [wikipedia.org]
Also, the US already fingerprints all incoming foreigners. Japan only adop
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In 2000, as part of the ongoing litigation between Arthur Andersen and Andersen Consulting, an arbitrator ordered Andersen Cons
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AC, you haven't experienced it because it only began in November of last year.
The Japanese police are well-known for their mistreatment of not only convicted criminals (whom some will say deserve it), but also criminal suspects, who can be "detained" without evidence in prison-like conditions for up to 23 days before charges are laid. Non-citizens cannot expect an opportunity to post bail, as they supposedly are a flight risk. (From an island nation? With ID checks upon leaving from any port?)
The mos
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Sure, it would identify the average US citizen, but it would be useless against organised crime and terrorism.
Let me make this perfectly clear: TERRORISTS ARE NOT BOND VILLAINS.
They don't have massive teams of plastic surgeons standing by to modify the appearances of their operatives. What would the point be, especially when the attacks often result in the death of the attacker, and they have hordes of disillusioned youth with no criminal history.
There are no laser cannons, nor are there secret underground bunkers. 9/11 was carried out using nothing but box-cutters. At that rate, prevention is quite a bit more
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We've all heard the conspiracy stories about how it was the CIA/teh joooooz that really did it. Now I've thought about it for a while and here's what I figured:
If it had been the CIA, there'd have been a trail of evidence linking it to them. Those guys are not rocket scientists. Heck, NASA barely are these days.
Likewise if mossad had done it, there'd also be a trail that a cokehead with a cold could follow right to the CIA's doorstep.
So, by a process of
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Sure, it would identify the average US citizen, but it would be useless against organised crime and terrorism.
There are days I wonder what life would be like under real time census. It's my idea of the government collecting the long form census stats in real time for everyone in the US. I think that we could do it now. We could barcode/tag/ID all our money/products where the government and businesses could trivially track the paths of our en
Add a column (Score:3, Funny)
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What's so difficult about extending an existing biometric database that it's worth $1 billion (or 20 quid - 30 Euros once the Iranians start dealing their oil in a stable and sustainable currency :P)?
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But you agree I should ask for a modest part, let's say 10%, right?
Look into scanner with remaining eye (Score:3, Funny)
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Waste of taxpayers money and absolutely absurd (Score:3, Insightful)
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Big Brother Obama/McCain/Romney or Big Sister Hillary! have different plans.
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congree and senate (meant to say house and senate) (Score:2)
Re:congree and senate (meant to say house and sena (Score:2)
THIS IS YOU, WHEN YOU VOTE MAINSTREAM:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statism [wikipedia.org]
Privacy issues... (Score:2, Interesting)
Also, the more data investigators have available to compare to mine in my hypo
Think some more (Score:5, Interesting)
The database will be -
1. Imperfect
2. Abused by government employees
3. Illegally accessed and sold on for profit
1 means you'd get your name dragged through the muck anyway and have LESS chance of getting off, even if you didn't commit the crime.
2 that some people will get stalked by crazy ex spouses/lovers/stalkers/whatever. There will also be cases of it facilitating some petty authoritarian's revenge schemes
3 is a big hello to massive identity theft.
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One step further. (Score:2)
Humans will be responsible for how correct the data is.
Humans will be responsible for using the data responsibly.
Humans will be responsible for using the data honestly.
I don't think it's possible to work around that.
With the amount of power the database represents, and the already mentioned downsides, I don't trust ANY humans with that job.
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Other than that, yes, I agree, governments can and will try to smuggle this in however they can. In the UK it's "teh terrists!!" that are providing the cover story.
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Cool... (Score:3)
Personally, I'm not worried. (Score:2, Interesting)
As much as we bemoan the devolution that's going on inside the government, it has the side benefit of keeping some of the things they're trying to do in check. Will Rogers and I are both glad we don't get all of the government we pay for.
hex? (Score:4, Funny)
value of service not cost (Score:1)
They are probably paying a lot in the name of security, although I am sure we would never hear about any breaches even if they did happen, and of course, data like this usually gets stolen with the hel
Plug and play???? (Score:3, Interesting)
This is not a fucking game.
I think the spokesman has been reading too many Microsoft boxes. FBI:"If my USB drive is 'plug and play' why cant a thumbprint, or a tattoo, or a piece of ear. Heck they do it on CSI all the time!"
I'm all for catching bad guys, but "plug and play", you've got to be fucking kidding.
(tee hee I said but plug)
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(tee hee I said but plug)
Brilliant move (Score:2)
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One: we've had this since the early 1990s: this is an update of the system.
Two: It's in West Virginia, and the reason it's there is the King of Pork, Senator Robert "Ignore my history as a Grand Imperial Wizard of the KKK" Byrd. . .
That makes it inviolate. . .
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Is that a joke?
You're completely delusionsal if you think Obama or Clinton would give up one iota of the executive power that George Bush has amassed during his presidency. If you care anything about civil liberties, you'll vote for Ron Paul or some 3rd party candidate.
everyone's a criminal now (Score:2)
The funny thing is: once you start treating people in a certain way, they tend to behave like that. Treat people as if they're inferior and some of them will start to believe it. Make people think that they'll be treated as criminals and don't be surprised if they start to behave as if they are criminals.
Make it look as if the law has no respect for them, and the population will have less respect for the law.
This sort of initiative sends completely the
Irony (Score:2)
"There was a murder? Better check thos Army killers!"
I'm sorry (Score:2)
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What if disapproval of the government and its methods becomes "sedition" and therefore a crime?
There's an Ayn Rand quote about how many laws are intentionally designed to create criminals. So if there are sufficient laws that one cannot reasonably avoid breaking them, and thus becoming a criminal, then everybody's biometrics are fair game.
I was fingerprinted in 2nd grade (Score:3, Informative)
Not realizing how ridiculous this was at the time or the significance of it, I allowed myself to be inked and fingerprinted.
What are the odds that those fingerprints have made their way into the FBI database?
Disney? (Score:3, Funny)
Just put some homeland security squeeze on Disney, and offer them a pittance, and buy their database. Done. Largest fingerprint database in the world of public citizens and criminals.... Every walk of life loves Disney World...
Could I have my million dollar consulting fee now?
It's already an issue... (Score:2, Funny)
I worked on AFIS (Score:2)
In what universe does knowledge of your biostatistical data impede on your freedom?
You DO NOT have the freedom to commit murder, arson or terrorism.
If you are not involved in something illegal, the FBI doesn't give a crap about you.
They aren't going to track your movement around the US with this info (that's what traffic cams are for). They aren't going to fingerprint that baggie you tossed
Photographs are biometric information (Score:2)
The positive aspect that I can see in this ... (Score:2)
STOP (Score:2)
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A collection of fingerprints doesn't strike me as particularly valuable. Now if you had a collection of fingerprints associated with people's names, that would be something interesting. Even if you found a way to record the name of the last person who held a penny before it returned to the bank - what exactly is so interesting about supermarket cashiers?
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Gotta compete with those Canadian spy coins [msn.com].
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Ya know, ya gotta love that loonie Canadian currency
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Re:Keep your eye out for... (Score:4, Funny)