Should Apple Give Back Replaced Disks? 446
theodp writes "As if having to pay $160 to replace a failed 80-GB drive wasn't bad enough, Dave Winer learned to his dismay that Apple had no intention of giving him back the disk he paid them to replace. Since it contained sensitive data like source code and account info, Dave rightly worries about what happens if the drive falls into the wrong hands. Which raises an important question: In an age of identity theft and other confidentiality concerns, is it time for Apple — and other computer manufacturers — to start following the practice of auto mechanics and give you the option of getting back disks that are replaced?"
Always? (Score:3, Insightful)
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Re:Always? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Do you always get your part back at the mechanic? Aren't some parts "cores" used to make remanufactured parts? Just like PC drives?
Core charges, as with automotive parts, only apply to refurbished components. For example, when I replace my brakes in my car I buy calipers pre-loaded with pads making replacement a matter of
1. removing 4 lugnuts x 2
2. removing two bolts x 2
3. removing one hose x 2
4. Disc removal + machine shop x 2
Financially it's on par with with pad replacement at a shop, but assurance of new rubber seals, and downtime is far less. If I wanted to keep the old ones, I'd buy new calipers which are often not pre-loaded.
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Meanwhile, bleeding/renewing the brake fluid at LEAST at when you change the brakes is the minimum you should be doing. Hell knows what condition the fluid is in. Oh and something people dont thing of that often is bleeding/renewing the clutch fluid, that stuff is closer to the motor and can get pretty disgusting pretty quickly.
oh and merry frickin
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Do your car parts contain sensitive data?
This happened to me. But... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:This happened to me. But... (Score:4, Informative)
it's a parsing issue (Score:2, Insightful)
Does not compute. He paid them to replace it, not to replace it AND give back the old one.
Curious (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Curious (Score:5, Funny)
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Option on returned parts? (Score:5, Informative)
And yes, the laws regarding computer repair should be the same.
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When it comes to shmucks like me who have no place to maintain their cars, well, the local garages charge an arm and a leg because they can, and we're more worried about "how much will it cost" than "can I get my beatup fender back."
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Even tires! (And if you don't want the tire back, they charge you extra, since they have to pay the disposal fee)
Where I live it costs extra to keep the old tires, at least at the shops I've received quotes from. It's rather nutty when your car only comes with a donut sized spare and you buy a used rim and want a tire, but in those cases I've asked friends for surplus tires like from an old tire swing or some such. In most cases it's not an issue.
Some applies to batteries. It costs me more to get a new battery without an old one, but again people are happy to give up their old batteries, esp those who buy used bat
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The exact same applies to computers except nobody wants to give the parts back. There's a lot of lay-people out there who really only know how to drive them badly and wouldn't know why they needed a new motherboard to fix "dll is missing" error.
Tin Foil Hat (Score:2)
Dell Already dose this. (Score:5, Informative)
It costs a little extra and coming from the field support arena I know why.
Whenever you replace a part under warranty they take the old one. Not because they have use for it but to make sure you don't. Imagine an unscrupulous person who would call in "My drive is broken" then when the tech replaces the drive, he just turns around and sells the old one (which was fine anyway).
The same logically applies to other components and Dell only makes this special exemption for Hard drives because that's where the data is stored.
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Re:Dell Already dose this. (Score:5, Informative)
Where I come from (Jamaica) that's simple theft. If I bought a new part and payed you to replace it the old part is still mine.
I may choose to have you dispose of it or to sell it to you as reusable scrap. The choice is mine however. And again the reason is simple and has nothing to do with personal data.
If you have a loose IDE cable and I tell you "The drive is dead" then sell you a replacement and keep the old drive, I can then sell that old drive. My profit would be 100% of the sale price.
Screwing over the customer so you can sell his stuff? Most jurisdictions discourage that
My profit would be 100% of the sale price. (Score:3, Funny)
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This only applies to Servers. Desktop and Laptop users are screwed. Looks like your best bet is to degauze the old drive with a big magnet before the technician arrives if you are paranoid.
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It's more likely that Dell is taking the drive so that they can get some money back from the manufacturer when the drive is under warranty. They are, after all, a business and if it wasn't their fault the drive failed early, they shouldn't have to suck up the cost.
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This system Apple has is backwards. The core should be returned to the customer by default, and the customer should be able to opt-in for a discount. It should be plainly written on the repair contract.
Re:Dell Already dose this. (Score:5, Insightful)
I know when I worked in a computer shop, we left the dead parts on top of the computer to give to the user when they came back. Most would just tell us to toss the parts, so we had a big bin full of "dead" stuff, most of which truly was dead. We never kept things unless it actually WAS an issue covered by warranty, and then the customer got the savings passed to them. If this is truly happening, Apple has a nice scam going on.
tm
Agreement (Score:3, Interesting)
Absolutely. (Score:5, Insightful)
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In any case, Apple owes it to their customers to give them their drive back, if it isn't warranty work. If it is, and Apple really wants that drive back so bad, they owe it to their customers to offer the option (at a small cost, obviously, although bonus points if it's free) of a thorough data scrub. Anything less than this is ludicrous
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Except that this was replaced beyond the warranty; it cost him $160. At that price I would expect to actually be buying a drive, not trading in an old one. 80 GB laptop drives on Newegg range from $55 to $88, which means that, at $160, installation is between $72 and $105. That's already fairly high, but I'm willing to grant Apple that they have to worry about breaking more, and need to have a profit too. But
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...and cell phones? (Score:2, Insightful)
Unfortunately, she apparently had credit card info inside the p
Sent them Sensitive Data?! (Score:2, Troll)
WHY?
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Maybe his disk drive was broken, so he could not take the sensitive data off it?
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Your computer could be stolen out of your home on any random day.
Take the performance hit. Encrypt anything you don't want thieves or the world to see.
It's an option (Score:5, Informative)
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Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Re:It's an option (Score:4, Funny)
It's like the Mighty Mouse. Atleast one button, but oftentimes it is more than that.
Re:It's an option (Score:4, Funny)
A Reality Field Distorted flat rate (kind of all curvy, that sort of thing).
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Flat rate repair does not mean universally unitary rate repair. It just means that for the kinds of repairs that are covered, the same price is charged. It can be separated by nature of problem, product family, or level of service based.
For example, you could have desktops at $249, notebooks at $299. Or iMacs/Macbooks at $249, Pro products at a different price. Or replacement of non-display hardware components at one price, LCD replacement at another, and complete system replacement
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Don't give them the drive in the first place. (Score:2)
Most companies tha
some genius's at the bar.. (Score:2, Interesting)
Encrypted FS (Score:4, Insightful)
Warranty Service (Score:2)
All 3 have a procedure to deal with sensitive data on Bad HDD's. - You typically can ask to not send the drive back.
I have never done it with Apple, but IBM and Toshiba have a Affidavit you fill out certifying the drive was destroyed, signed by the tech and the Customer IIRC.
If its non waranty service.. the drive should be sent back.
Apple should ASK (Score:2, Insightful)
There ought to be a law (Score:2)
Let's work together to make this happen.
Kind of a whiner (Score:5, Insightful)
This Macbook was not under warranty, or the hard disk replacement would have been free.
The $160 that the author is scoffing at isn't that outrageous if you consider that he paid for a hard disk and the labor to install it (though if his generation of macbook is anything like mine, replacing the hard drive is a snap. Still, using his auto analogy, mechanics get to charge you $100 labor to install your brake pads, even though it takes them only a few minutes).
If he had demanded the old disk and made a scene, he probably could have gotten it back.
I agree that saying that the old hard disk is theirs is lame as hell, and he's rightfully angry about that. It's probably the only point of the author's that holds water. There are alternatives to the Apple Store for repair, though. CompUSA was one (though it's now going out of business). There are other Apple Authorized Service Shops, like Ikon Solutions, and the old-skool Apple stores (privately owned ones, of which many still exist).
I once decided to have an old iBook's hard disk upgraded. I took it to CompUSA (please don't snicker, the iBook was under warranty, CompUSA is/was apple authorized so it meant saving my warranty, and this was around the year 2000, before Apple Stores were everywhere). When I took it in, I simply asked to keep the old drive and they were happy to put it in a static bag for me.
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Still, using his auto analogy, mechanics get to charge you $100 labor to install your brake pads, even though it takes them only a few minutes).
I don't know of many cars where it only takes a few minutes. Drums perhaps, but disc, I'd wager 30min to an hour plus testing.
I listed here [slashdot.org] the basics that need to be done for caliper removal. Add to that
1. Lift
2. Inspection (fluid leakage / rotor thickness)
3. Cleaning (asbestos brake dust where applicable)
4. Rotor turning (sometimes you can get away without doing this, but really)
5. Pad replacement (even decent mechanics have trouble with those clips)
6. Reassembly
7. Bleeding
8. Testing (typically
Sure he should get it back, but... (Score:2, Interesting)
Encryption goes a long way in remedying this particular dilemma. If you're worried enough about it to freak when they don't send the drive back, you should be worried about loss or theft. Use TrueCrypt or your favorite encryption software for those files.
I find that surprising (Score:2)
Wait a second... (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's another question for ya-- why didn't you use FileVault [wikipedia.org]? Y'know apple throws it in OS X for ya for *free* for a reason...
W
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two points (Score:3, Insightful)
Several things to add here... (Score:3, Informative)
Secondly, if he paid for a replacement, he should have been allowed to keep the old drive. Once you're paying, you are buying the new part and the labor involved. Although, if his drive in fact has the same problem the Seagate 80s are coming up with, data snooping is not a problem... (the failed drives are, in fact, causing platter damage)
Third (and most important, perhaps), he should likely have been aware that on a Macbook the drive is a user-replaceable part. You remove the battery, unscrew the three screws that hold the memory/HD in place, and just pull the drive. Put the positioning screws on a new one, slide it in, and all is well with the world. I did a swap-out for a customer of mine two weeks ago who had a Seagate die, and the new 120 I put in cost about $100. The work took 5 minutes, most of which was spent looking for my screwdriver set!
Apple should get things clear though, and also step up and start a warranty extension for these drives. They've been pretty good about it with other hardware issues so far.
Auto Mechanics (Score:2, Insightful)
A similar consumer law should force the return of replaced parts on computers, and don't expect Apple to change their mind about it until such a law is passed. And while they're at it, they should forbid under pain of long jail sentences, computer technicians from rifling through your hard drive for files of interest. I'll let the occasional child porn collec
Warranty no help in this situation (Score:2, Informative)
They should give the disks back. (Score:2)
Im a computer geek so I know better but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, just because you got the disk back doesn't mean they didn't look over your data anyway. I always encrypt my drives completely with a FDE program. That way if it does fall into the wrong hands they can't do anything with it anyway. My personal opinion, if you don't want someone going through your drive, you should either:
1. Take it to a repair center and watch them do the repair.
2. Take it to a friend/relative whom you know won't go fishing through your stuff.
3. Learn to fix it yourself.
4. Replace it yourself and use those handy dandy backups(you did do backups right?)
5. Suck it up and accept that some minimum wage freak is gonna go through all your stuff with a fine toothed comb looking for goodies.
Now, #5 might not be a big deal if you have something like source code, they might not know enough about programming to realize what they have and how valuable it is if they wanted to use it against you. In the end, it would be great if the IT industry had some kind of checks and balances to keep everyone honest and separate those who are honest from those who are lying kniving thieves, but this is the world we live in. Until someone can come up with an effective way to keep everyone honest, FDE is needed.
Me personally.. if I had a drive that wasn't encrypted I'd value the data and the cost of the replacement drive. If losing the data to the wrong hands could cost you millions of dollars, a $200 drive isn't too much to throw out yourself and replace. If it has no real value then why not RMA it? The choice is yours, so make it a good one.
Funny question (Score:2)
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No meeting of the minds (Score:3, Insightful)
You don't get warranty parts back (Score:5, Interesting)
for consumer electronics. I worked at a warranty center for 35 brands and to keep fraud to a dull roar the wanted the parts back. We'd fill out all the paperwork, stick it and the parts in a bin and wait for the field rep to audit them. Then they'd take them back or tell us to dispose of them.
I assume it's similar in other industries. It's way too easy to claim you replaced a set of brake pads or that microprocessor and not do it but get the money for the part.
Since the party paying is the manufacturer then they get the old parts back.
Let's put this in perspective (Score:4, Insightful)
- If you don't have an agreement in writing, you don't really have an agreement.
- Never sign anything without having read and understood what you are signing.
Making excuses about "fine print" is just a way for lazy people to justify their laziness when it comes to reading a contract. This guy has no one to blame but himself.Re: (Score:2)
Mod parent up (Score:4, Insightful)
Number 1 should be rephrased to say "If you want to secure an agreement, do it in writing." As written, the converse is not true--an agreement without writing does indeed exist and has consequences all the time. It's like the mythical "it's not a contract unless I signed it" that also isn't true but will never die.
Still, unless he requested the part back up front, that drive became Apple's property as soon as the replacement was installed. Also, unless it was requested and required that the drive be returned, there's likely no way it can be recovered. It got binned with the other bad drives.
This is a simple case of whining because the customer didn't really know what the hell he was doing, when all he needed to know was right in front of him the whole time, not bound in some dusty, obscure location in an archaic form of legalese.
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Astounding (Score:2)
Drawing a parallel to mechanics offering parts back doesn't apply.
If a mechanic changes disk pads, they might offer them.
If a mechanic changes a motor, they damn skippy don't offer the old one.
If Apple changed just the platter, they could offer that, but that's not how drives are changed. The entire drive mechanism and electronics is changed.
Even
You don't know who has your data. (Score:2, Interesting)
MacBook HDD = DIY Part (Score:2, Informative)
Aptly named (Score:2)
How I handled my MacBook drive replacement (Score:5, Interesting)
I sat down for my appointment at the Genius Bar. I asked him if I would get to keep the drive, since I was worried about my data. He said no, since they have to return the dead drive to the manufacturer. Fine, I agreed with that, so I asked if he could certify that the drive was indeed "dead" and worthy of replacement, so I could take it home and sandpaper the platters. He said that was fine; I didn't take his word for it, and made sure the manager was okay with it, in case his shift ended and there was no record that my drive was officially declared under warranty repair.
So I went home, and completely took out the platters, and put back together the case of the drive (sans platters) and took it back to the Apple store.
They put a new drive in my MacBook without fuss, and took the old drive's metal shell to give back to the manufacturer. I don't know if this scenario is officially endorsed by the corporate office, but it worked at the Cambridge, MA Apple store.
Always Read Before You Sign Anything (Score:5, Informative)
I cannot count how many times I have heard this advice, yet it bears out repeating over and over and over again - do not sign ANYTHING without reading it first. This is the person's mistake, and he willingly admits to his mistake. It is a shame that it happened at an Apple store, but to be honest, it could have been anywhere, even an automotive repair shop.
The only reason automobile mechanics must give you a replaced part if you ask for it is so that you can get a second opinion afterwards, thus hoping to reduce fraud that tends to run rampant at some questionable automotive places where either through technician ignorance, negligence, or through purposeful managerial policy, a part is replace that does not need to be replaced.
Apple has a legitimate reason for keeping the drive which is described on the form given to the customer - it believes the drive can be fixed and sold. As a paying customer, you are a part of that economic system. If you do not wish to participate, that is your prerogative, and with standardization of components, you are more than welcome to find an alternative (which ironically the consumer considered and should have pursued).
Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything (Score:5, Insightful)
When I have my car serviced, I fully expect that all of my old parts are sitting in a pile somewhere, waiting for me to claim/disclaim them. Of course, my mechanic doesn't have me sign anything with annoying fine print on it before he begins work, like it seems that Apple does.
But signed agreement or no, it seems like bad business. When a customer gives me a computer, or a TiVo, or whatever and asks me to fix it, every part (screws, dead fans, hard drives, bulging capacitors, whatever) I remove goes into a box. After the repair is complete, I offer whatever remains in that box back to the customer.
Usually they decide that they don't want it, but until that decision is made then those extra/failed parts remain theirs.
There's a couple of exceptions to this:
Warranty work. Like exchanging a screwdriver at Sears, there's no expectation that one will retain ownership of the old item if it is being replaced under warranty.
Contracts and agreements. In the audio business, years ago, we sometimes sold substantial upgrades to commercial PA systems which weren't at all broken, but which the customer just wanted to have work better or be more flexible. It wasn't uncommon to have verbiage in the quotation which would permit us to remove and dispose of all upgraded/displaced equipment in a manner we saw fit. The potential to re-sell (or re-use) some of this old gear was definitely a factor in the price of an upgrade, and it would generally save the customer some money if they'd let us keep the old gear. But without being upfront and telling them that it would be part of the deal, taking these old components would have been theft
Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything (Score:5, Informative)
Frankly I think it's time to see this generalized out to include computer repair as well, or at least to devices that can contain data, but I don't expect to see it happen until there are a few more high-profile cases of misuse or abuse of confidential information by technicians (or people further down in the refurbish/refuse cycle).
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Bullshit - they get $$ - credit from the manuf. Apple sends it back.
Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't know how fast you can read, but reading through the standard EULA is a hard task for most of us. It also depends on the product. When considering a DSL, server, or mobile phone contract I'll check first to see the rules on ending the contract (because this will be the most expensive part), and if they mention a Fair Use Policy or a way to cap data transfer above a certain limit, not to get into huge costs. The rest of the text I'll leave it for what it is. And the only reason why I read these things is because I had bad experiences in the past, otherwise I wouldn't have known about them.
When consider buying a 8 euro headset, would I read the standard eula? Would you?
Reading EULAs is a time-consuming activity that sometimes doesn't even help you further in knowing what you're up to because of the "encrypted" legal language. And you really need to know what you are looking for. In that respect, it is actually useful to read slashdot and especially forums on the product of your interest and get info on cases like these.
Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything (Score:5, Informative)
It is possible (even likely) that the customer DIDN'T sign anything binding them to whatever objectionable terms you're referring to... The reason for this is that banks, credit-card issuers, and other financial institutions usually bury a clause in anything signed by any customer that says something to the effect of:
"And we can change these terms any time we see fit, and are only required to inform you after the change has already happened. IF you do not accept the new terms, your only recourse is to cancel your account and stop doing business with us--which also incidentally makes 100% of any amount owed INSTANTLY due for payment. Also, you're agreeing to be bound by those new terms from the date they are implemented until you cancel your account, because by opening the account you're "pre-agreeing" to these terms taht we haven't made up yet."
And that, my friend, makes the agreement meaningless and worthless. If one party can change it AT WILL, you really don't have a contract... You have extortion. It also, literally, means that nobody can read everything... Because even when you GET informed about the changes, they don't send you the modified agreement in its entirety--they send you the changed portion. so unless you made a photocopy of the original, you are being informed of the changes to an original YOU DON'T HAVE. Once, I received an "Amended customer agreement" from a credit-card company that was one page, inded only one SENTENCE long, and it said the following:
On Page 2, Section 1 of the original, paragraph 1 sentence 2, clause 3 is hereby amended to include the phrase "And all others as we see fit."
And before you say "Well, you should have saved a copy" I challenge you to immediately produce for me every copy of every agreement you've ever signed with your creditors. If you can't, you're a rank hypocrite defending an indefensible corporate swindle.
Now, that's not to say that I don't read everything. I do, and I even make an effort to strike through patently objectionable clauses (like the one above) and initial them, but 1) Some companies will not accept modified/amended agreements and 2) I don't always see/grok all the objectionable clauses right away because I AM NOT A LAWYER. Should I really be required to keep an attorney on retainer so I can accomplish something as simple as opening a checking-account? Or getting an oil-change?
Unless you are an attorney, you violated the cardinal rule of real-estate... DON'T DO A CLOSING WITHOUT AN ATTORNEY WHO REPRESENTS YOU LOOKING OVER THE PAPERS. That $300 "miscalculation" likely wasn't a "mistake." Mortgage brokers are some of the sleaziest operators around--you will not find a more wretched den of scum and villainy than their annual convention. If a layman like you spotted this "error" there were probably tons of other "junk fees" in there too that you weren't really obligated to pay... I have done about a dozen property closings over the years and I have always gotten more "junk-fees" taken off the tab than I paid the lawyer to do the closing. I have come out like $5k ahead over the last decade doing this.
Further, I'd guess since you work in a call-center, you're not very old/life-experienced just yet... Chances are they saw your DOB on the papers and decided to see how much extra they could screw you out of... Chances are the payment
Re:Always Read Before You Sign Anything (Score:4, Interesting)
Shocking that consumers who typically don't see the contract until the very end of the purchasing process, and typically receive a copy of their 10-page contract, written in highly technical legal language on a tiny, folded piece of paper in a 3 point font don't know what they're getting into.
And if they read and can understand the contract, they find that the terms are non-negotiable, require that you agree to waive right to sue in court, and allow the vendor to arbitrarily change the contract.
So I hope your customers/victims screw you out of every dime possible.
Re:Remember kids. (Score:5, Insightful)
First off, with going direct to Apple - retaining your disk is but a phone call away and a credit card charge. Really. Speak to Customer Services.
If you decide to go to an Apple Authorised Service Provider (disclosure: I own one) then it's entirely at the discretion of the Service Provider. They can withhold the disk and ask you to pay for the charge Apple might levy for an "official Apple part" or you can go for a "third party" disk (cos, yes, they're all third party!) and get a new disk, at retail prices AND keep your disk!
This isn't so much as a YRO item as a "Why didn't you ask for your disk back when you handed over the machine" item? Shouldn't Slashdot have a Bozo Alert category?
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ironic: captcha = external
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A lot of the comments on this topic are fairly pathetic apologists; there's no reason for Apple to not give back the drive if you're paying for the repair, but your comment is even more ridiculous.
I also have a hard time believing they wanted to charge you $702 to replace the drive, especially when all of the other people commenting who have had drives repl
Re:netapp and ibm give you an option to keep faile (Score:3, Insightful)
This is why I encrypt my disks. Everything. I've been doing it for a long time and I pay a considerable performance penalty for it.
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Just a thought.
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Playing devil's advocate here: Have you ever had this situation happen to you with your existing pre-made PCs (assuming you have one, maybe you build your own)? You assume this is some special Apple experience, where I imagine a Dell customer would have the
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You use that word, but I do not think it means,[sic] what you think it means.
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No, of course not. The point is NOT that you are legally in your rights. The point is that the customer is dissatisfied. The office manager should've said:
"Look I know you're disappointed. This is the way we work and I can clearly see that it had been better if it was explained to you before hand. There is no way I can get your old drive back, but
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At least the G5 PowerMacs are good. I approve of those computers, even if