Italian Judge Tells HP To Refund Pre-Installed XP

Paolo DF writes "An Italian user asked for a refund after buying a Compaq computer that came with Windows XP and Works 8 pre-installed. HP tried to avoid the EULA agreement which states, approximately: '[I]f the end user is not willing to abide by this EULA... he shall immediately contact the producer to get info for giving back the product and obtaining refunds.' The court ruled in favor of the user (Google translation from the Italian), who received back €90 for XP and €50 for Works. Here is the ruling (PDF, Italian)."

Progress.

[nozzo]

This is progress, the more this happens the better the choice for the consumer. It shows the vendors that users prefer OS choices a la Dell.
True, this is but 1 user but every little helps as we say in the UK.

Re:Progress.

[AusIV]

True, this is but 1 user but every little helps as we say in the UK.

It's not just one user. It's a legal precedent. Now Italian Linux users may be more likely to request refunds for Windows licenses that come with computers, and since there's a legal precedent, the vendors may be more likely to comply.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:

[pipatron]

So either they will start loosing money (because they do not make that much on a PC) in Italy, or stop selling PC's altogether.

Or start selling PCs with linux, and have Windows as an add-on with a price tag.

Re:

[Teun]

The ad news is that this will not harm Microsoft in the least, even if EVERYBODY would do this. It will be the computercompanies who will need to caugh this one up.

I'm not so sure about this, last May I wanted to buy a HP computer in The Netherlands but without the Microsoft (XP) operating system as I wanted something more robust.
I contacted HP through their website and their (in Dutch) reply was:
Het is niet mogelijk om de HP Pavilion Slimline s7730.nl pc te ontvangen met Windows XP of zonder besturingssysteem.
Wij HP kunnen u hierover niet verder helpen, u heeft de mogelijkheid om via Microsoft te genieten van de terugbetalingsvoorwaarden.
Voor meer informatie h

Re:

[DiamondGeezer]

It sounds like typical Dutch bureaucratic intransigence. It should be the unofficial motto of the Netherlands: "Dat kan niet"

Tell HP you'll take them to court. You didn't pay Microsoft for Windows XP, you paid HP. And you want your money back.

Re:

[Teun]

Well if you'd want it "The typical Dutch way" then it's the shops responsibility to do any refunding.
Legally they are the only party you as a consumer have a contract with.

Re:

[Fred_A]

Translation:

It's not possible to receive this PC without XP or OS.

We of HP cannot help you any further, you have the possibility to enjoy the payback conditions via Microsoft.

I contacted MS by phone and they claimed I could get a payback in the order of 51 euros.

Because XP costs nearly 300 euros I decided not to take their offer and make this a dual boot computer.

In other words, at least here in The Netherlands it's Microsoft that sells the OS on a HP computer.

What I find surprising is that MS actually replied.

This kind of inquiry typically goes like :
Shop : not our problem go see MS
MS : not our problem go see your shop
goto Shop

In your case it also contradicts the EULA (and basic commercial principles in which you deal with your seller not its sellers as pointed out by others).

The amount is also fairly low. Although it's probably close to what HP actually pays to MS when it buys a million licences for resale.

Re:Progress.

[lbbros]

Although it is a legal precedent, it must be noted that Italian law is not based on precedents, like UK or USA. Even the rulings of our "Corte di Cassazione" (akin to the Supreme Court) are not completely binding (i.e. they show the "correct" interpretation of the law but judges can decide differently).

Re:

[marcello_dl]

And Court of Cassazione decisions often contradict previous ones, e.g. asserting that a person wearing jeans could be raped as removing the jeans was an impossible operation to perform without the victim's consent.
http://tinyurl.com/2vomdd [tinyurl.com] (Italian)

Re:

[lakeland]

Every case that goes before a judge has facts that are particular to that case.

In most of the world, the judge takes all those facts into consideration and uses them as the primary reason for their decision. This means the 'law of precedent' which dominates the US is of more limited value in other countries -- "Sure, that case sounds similar, but what were the details which made the judge rule this way?" By contrast, the US describes the current case primarily in terms of past cases, with stuff particular

Re:Progress.

[chromatic]

The Via Dolorosa's pretty narrow. Also, it's in Jerusalem.

Re:

[eiapoce]

Nevertheless reading the full article you can see that the guy who sued works for a Consumer Association and on his side there were not legal expenses. This is a win/win situation. If he wins he gets the money and attorneys get paid + pubblicity for the association - If he loses noone gets hurt.

Enrico

Re:

[Fred_A]

Nevertheless reading the full article you can see that the guy who sued works for a Consumer Association and on his side there were not legal expenses. This is a win/win situation. If he wins he gets the money and attorneys get paid + pubblicity for the association - If he loses noone gets hurt.

I know for a fact it is so in France, but I believe it can be done in quite a few places in the EU, you can get a consumer association to sue with/for you and provide you with legal counsel if they can be interested in the case.

The bundling problem has been considered several times in France but hasn't been really tested in court yet. Whenever it seemed it was going to go legal a settlement has been reached. On the side the DGCCRF (which stands for Direction générale de la concurrence,de la cons

Re:

[bigdavesmith]

IANAL, obviously, but now that this case has been presented, and a decision made, doesn't that open the door for other people getting their money back without going to court, or trial, whatever? So thanks to this one person paying the legal fees, other people can just do a 'same thing, gimme the cash' type deal?

Gimme the cash... I think my ignorance might be showing.

Re:

[at_18]

So thanks to this one person paying the legal fees, other people can just do a 'same thing, gimme the cash' type deal?

He didn't have to pay the legal fees, he got those refunded too. This is normal in Italy, which has a loser pay legal system.

Re:Now, if I only could get a refound for McOS

[Waffle Iron]

I run Linux on my Mac. Should this be posible or must I pay the Apple tax?

Why don't you check the EULA that came with your copy of OSX. Does it say that you can return it for a refund?

Re:Progress.

[davester666]

> I thought the EULA just meant that you could return the computer

I believe this is referring to the Windows EULA, which only discusses your non-rights w.r.t. Windows, and doesn't discuss the hardware at all. I don't have it handy, but when I read it [and when it's come up before in slashdot, for the odd person getting a refund in the US], the EULA explicitly states [at least for the US] that you have the right to return the software [specifically] for a full refund if you don't agree with the EULA.

And I don't think MS wants to revise the EULA to force the return of the computer as well, because then it explicitly goes back to that monopoly situation, where for the large vendors, you must then buy Windows to get a computer. Now, it's just a big hassle for both the consumer and the vendor to buy a computer without Windows [in general], but it's not legally forced by Microsoft [except perhaps in some non-pubic legal agreements between the vendors and Microsoft, where they pay for each computer shipped instead of each Windows license shipped - Windows licenses refunded].

Re:

[the_womble]

I thought the EULA just meant that you could return the computer

For that to apply you would have to sign an agreement when you bought the computer. You agree to the EULA after you have bought the hardware, so it cannot affect your ownership of the hardware. In any case, it is an MS EULA that only applies to the software.

Time to break out the classic analogy

Time to break out the classic flawed analogy.

Corrected that for you.

I want a Ford with a Chevy engine, should Ford take back the engine and give me b

Re:

[Bert64]

The difference with Apple is that they supply their own OS with their own hardware. If every PC vendor supplied their own OS too that would be great, no monoculture and plenty of competition.

Re:Progress.

[the_womble]

So by your logic because there is a Eula, as opposed to nothing, MS is on the hook for your whims? Incredible.

Yes, if MS requires a EULA, you have the right to reject it.

What if I wanted Windows but decided to use another OS because I did not wish to agree with a clause in the EULA? I already own the hardware and have every right to keep it, so I should be able reject the EULA and get a refund on Windows.

According to you, MS should be able to impose whatever arbitrary conditions they want on the use of a produce AFTER getting paid for it, and consumers should have no alternatives other than not using the product (which they have paid for) or agreeing to MS's conditions. Now that really is incredible.

As for paying for the war etc., are you suggesting that no-one should raise any minor issue until all major political issues are sorted out? Then you can NEVER raise any consumer rights issue because there will always be something more important.

You do realise that complaining about MS does not preclude caring about other issues. I am opposed to the US invasion of Iraq AND corruption AND anti-competitive product bundling.

Yes, I can actually have opinions on three issues at once. If your brain explodes if you have to think about more than one issue a month, that is your problem.

Re:

[Bert64]

While i agree that there are more important things to worry about...
People can only be knowledgeable in one field, and that field is computing for the majority of people on slashdot. I'm sure there are similar politically-focused sites where people are discussing the corporate corruption of governments.
Also it's all part of the same problem, remember your paying to enforce anti-piracy laws, which benefits large corporations not citizens. Your paying for the US government to put pressure on other countries o

Re:

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

I don't want to use Zune software, guess what I didn't buy? A fucking Zune.

I must admit I cracked a smile at that line. That has "Penny Arcade" written all over it.

Re:

[Bert64]

There are too many differences...
If you want a car with a chevy engine, buy a chevy... You do have the choice.
Ford supply their own engine in their car, its not like theyre fitting a third party engine into their vehicles. Where they do supply third party goods (eg tyres) you often can request another brand.

Re:

[Sique]

Ford supply their own engine in their car, its not like theyre fitting a third party engine into their vehicles.

In fact they do. The smaller engines are either Yamaha or Mazda engines. And the Diesels (ok, not so interesting for the U.S. right now) are using FIAT/Peugeot technology.

Re:

[Bert64]

Mazda is owned by Ford...
Some Land Rovers use Jaguar engines too, but both companies are also owned by Ford..
The diesels may use technology developed by Peugeot, but licensed to ford who produce the engines.

And even if ford use a third party engine, you still get a choice... Most cars are available with a choice of diesel or petrol engines of various sizes.

Re:

[jamar0303]

And let Mac or Linux gain marketshare? They'd never do such a thing.

MS Tax

[indy_Muad'Dib]

90 euros for XP, $130

50 Euros for Works, $70.

so why do we only get back around $10 for a XP turn in?

Re:MS Tax

[JoshJ]

Because Microsoft owns a significant chunk of the American political machine, but owns very little of the European one.

Re:MS Tax

[Sterling Christensen]

It's probably because US retailers think it should count that they bundled Windows with sponsored crapware bringing net cost down to $10, while the Italian Judge (quite reasonably) thought it shouldn't.

Re:

[BrentH]

Oh boy. Please check out European news before you spew such nonsense. European co's are constantly under fire for anti-competitive practices. A lot more often than non-EU ones.

Re:MS Tax

[Spy der Mann]

90 euros for XP, $130
50 Euros for Works, $70.

Telling Microsoft to take their software to the dumpster: Priceless.

Re:MS Tax

[jollyreaper]

90 euros for XP, $130

50 Euros for Works, $70.

Canadian dollars, right? So in American that guy just got back $10k, right? Payday!

Re:

[falconwolf]

90 euros for XP, $130

50 Euros for Works, $70.

Canadian dollars, right? So in American that guy just got back $10k, right? Payday!

According to the X-Rates [x-rates.com] currency calculator 140 euros is 201.46 US dollars and 193.784 Canadian dollars.

Falcon

Re:

[SnoopJeDi]

I feel a disturbance in the force...

as if many thousands of pounds [wikipedia.org] cried out in a screaming arc over your head.

Re:

[kuzb]

-5 ignorant

Google pagerank != good source

[weighn]

it even has top pagerank on Google.

I can detect your sarcasm, but everyone knows that Google's pagerank is levered towards advertising revenue [smh.com.au] rather than good sources of info.

Re:

[Splab]

Your point being what? GP made a joke about the US dollar being less worth than the Canadian dollar and it seems to hold.

Re:

[canuck57]

Canadian dollars, right? So in American that guy just got back $10k, right? Payday!

Never heard of a Canadian getting a XP or Vista refund have you?

So in Canada is is worth less than $0. Remember you had to pay non refundable GST/PST on that too.

Re:

[Plutonite]

That's what the GP is saying, genius. He knows the number for euro to candian will be smaller than euro to dollar, becuase now the loonie is worth more than the USD. That's the whole point of the joke - $10K US dollars for 70 euro. :)

Re:

[Asmor]

Someone failed reading comprehension...

He implied ~$100 CDN was ~$10k American. Hence, he implied that the American dollar was around a hundredth what a canadian dollar is.

Re:

[muyuubyou]

I'm not supporting granparent's exaggerations, but there's a big difference between the chinese economy and the american economy: the chinese are exporters and a weak Yuan makes them more competitive, and the USA is, relatively to the size of the economy, a smaller exporter. America benefits from a weak dollar as it makes debt smaller and exports bigger, but at the same time it means America is losing international weight and buying power.

The USA can't afford a very weak dollar, because many things aren't e

Re:

[Registered Coward v2]

I'm not supporting granparent's exaggerations, but there's a big difference between the chinese economy and the american economy: the chinese are exporters and a weak Yuan makes them more competitive, and the USA is, relatively to the size of the economy, a smaller exporter. America benefits from a weak dollar as it makes debt smaller and exports bigger, but at the same time it means America is losing international weight and buying power.

The USA can't afford a very weak dollar, because many things aren't e

Re:

[mgblst]

Thanks Captain Obvious, I don't know what we would have done without you. You truely have made the world a better place.

Any other attempts at this?

[cygtoad]

Assuming the EULA is the same in the US and elsewhere, I wonder why this has not been tried before, and if it has, does anyone know the outcome? This has far reaching implications beyond HP. Any computer manufacturer would be affected, but the EULA seems to point heavily to the refunding procedure, not of Microsoft, but of the reseller. It should be interesting to see how HP responds.

Plenty of other (successful) attempts at this...

[Aehgts]

As a quick google search's [google.com] first few results show: this has been done in the US and Australia in the past with at least Dell and Toshiba and has been followed on slashdot [slashdot.org] before.

Re:Any other attempts at this?

[falconwolf]

Assuming the EULA is the same in the US and elsewhere, I wonder why this has not been tried before, and if it has, does anyone know the outcome?

It may be a hassle but people in the US have been getting refunds for years. Here's an article, "Windows license opens door for Linux refund" [cnn.com] on how people in the late '90s were requesting refunds. It mentions /. and how /.ers got involved.

Falcon

Re:

[complete loony]

One of the first refunds I ever heard about was in 1998, by a friend of mine in Adelaide, Australia [netcraft.com.au].

Re:

[JohnBailey]

Assuming the EULA is the same in the US and elsewhere, I wonder why this has not been tried before, and if it has, does anyone know the outcome? This has far reaching implications beyond HP. Any computer manufacturer would be affected, but the EULA seems to point heavily to the refunding procedure, not of Microsoft, but of the reseller. It should be interesting to see how HP responds.

It is and it has. There was a case recently in I think a French court where one of the big names was being awkward, and the court awarded the customer the full retail cost of all the software they rejected instead of just the OEM price. This was obviously a penalty for the company being difficult about obeying the EULA. And there have been a few others where people have demanded a refund as specified in the EULA, and reported their adventures in getting satisfaction.

Its a case of "don't like it.. Don't buy

Approximately?

[Frosty Piss]

EULA agreement which states, approximately: '[I]f the end user is not willing to abide by this EULA... he shall immediately contact the producer to get info for giving back the product and obtaining refunds.'

States approximately? I'd prefer to know exactly before I made any conclusions.

Re:

[joerisamson]

Well, this is probably a translation, so most of us are helped more with the translation, even if a translation has no binding value and is therefore only approximately correct.

Re:

[falconwolf]

EULA agreement which states, approximately: '[I]f the end user is not willing to abide by this EULA... he shall immediately contact the producer to get info for giving back the product and obtaining refunds.'

States approximately? I'd prefer to know exactly before I made any conclusions.

If you're in the US you want the version of the EULA for the US, the Italian version is only good in Italy. It's been years but when I had to agree after getting a new PC, in the US, it basically said if I didn't

Re:

[JohnBailey]

After a few seconds to get to the Google page, the EULA states exactly in the first paragraph.. http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/sp2/proeula.mspx [microsoft.com]

"IMPORTANT--READ CAREFULLY: This End-User License Agreement ("EULA") is a legal agreement between you (either an individual or a single entity) and Microsoft Corporation or one of its affiliates ("Microsoft") for the Microsoft software that accompanies this EULA, which includes computer software and may include associated media, printed materials, "online" or ele

Italian Day at /.?

[moosesocks]

• 11:02AM: Italy Starts Censoring Internet [slashdot.org]. Score: -1
  
• 8:29PM: Italian-made module [slashdot.org] for the ISS is installed, and unlike their cars, it appears to have been designed and constructed properly. Score: 0
  
• 10:24PM: Italy stands up to evil software corporation [slashdot.org]. Score: +1
  

Well, kudos to Italy for making the front page of slashdot 3 times in one day, finally constructing a mechanical device that didn't break down immediately, and ending up with a score in the green.

Ciao!

slashdot effect to hit Italy?

[wikinerd]

3 Italian stories on slashdot frontpage at short intervals... Who bets that Italian Internet will slow down to sub-28.8 speeds as Italy feels the slashdot effect?

It would be fun (maybe not for the sysadmins though) to have organised country TLDs slashdottings, eg agree for one day to surf only pages ending in a particular country's TLD.

It would then become more apparent that the modern Internet does not share the intended reliability and high-availability of arpanet. There are too many SPOFs in modern

Italy is going to go down hard

[Vainglorious Coward]

Three stories on Italy so far is nothing. We need to get posting submissions about the 16 billion pixel image of da Vinci's Last Supper [bbc.co.uk]. This one could be the big one [haltadefinizione.com]

Re:

[mennucc1]

finally constructing a mechanical device that didn't break down immediately

you probably missed two other Italian mechanical devices around:

• Ferrari wins both driver's and constructor's [bbc.co.uk] 2007 Formula 1 [formula1.com] championship
• Ducati wins both driver's [ducati.eu] constructor's [ducati.eu] 2007 championship

So what were you saying about Italian mechanical devices again?

Re:

[mattr]

Italy ought to be a fabulous space construction country given their amazing creativity and success with high performance machines (of which race cars are the most obvious). Heck I had an Alfa Romeo (you know the poor man's ferrari) when I was in high school and always kept a magazine page on my wall that said Victories in Series. They just kept winning. Sure the electrical system absolutely sucked but the rest of the car was amazing, far better than the price I paid at the Oldsmobile dealer. If you want to

Re:

[moosesocks]

Oh, I know that Italian sportscars can be fun (albeit impractical) if you're willing to throw enough money at them. I was more poking fun at the notorious unreliability of the low-cost Italian cars that made it over to the US (ie. Fiat).

Re:

[Nadir]

Yes, and McCarthy too.

Work still has to be done

[bogaboga]

It appears work still has to be done in getting the word out that in some cases, a Windows refund is still possible. I remember reading right here on Slashdot that a refund was possible. In fact there is s a website having info in this very topic. It went off-line long ago! It was www.wondowsrefund.net.

Re:Work still has to be done

[udippel]

It went off-line long ago! It was www.wondowsrefund.net

No winder it went off-line !

Don't get it

[khallow]

I think the EULA was clearly refering to the entire computer not to this software. My guess is that the reason this never happened before is because the entire computer is normally returned not just the software. My guess is that that HP ran afoul of some EU or Italian law governing bundled products. If that is indeed true, I will probably characterize such a law as "lame".

Re:

[Dr. Donuts]

Read the article. The judge made the decision not based off bundling laws, but contractual.

As far as the EULA clearly referring to the entire computer, I'd disagree. The EULA in question is Microsoft's EULA, not the manufacturers. If you go and buy XP off the shelf, you get the same EULA. You wouldn't go and return your computer just because you tried to install XP on it, now would you?

"If you do not accept the conditions of this contract, you may not use or copy the software and should promptly contact the

Re:

[cheater512]

If I couldnt build a cheaper computer myself, I'd buy a HP computer and if I couldnt get a XP refund I'd return the whole computer for the fun of it.

It would seriously screw with their minds. :D

Re:

[davester666]

>I think the EULA was clearly refering to the entire computer not to this software.

I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see how your interpretation can be applied. The EULA explicitly states [in part]: "computer software and may include associated media, printed materials, "online" or electronic documentation, and Internet-based services ("Software")." I don't see where in this list of items you could interpret to include computer hardware. MS or the vendor might be able to slip it into an addendum, but I do

Re:

[khallow]

The only trouble with this is how can a third party software vendor dictate any agreement between a hardware manufacturer and a buyer.

Actually this is pretty easy in practice. Microsoft makes a deal with the hardware vendor to bundle their software on the machine. Part of the agreement involves conditions on the agreement bewteen manufacturer and buyer. Even most open source involves minor constraints: a manufacturer cannot provide most open source software without including copies of the agreement and sometimes other constraints (like a guarantee that the software will not be used for military purposes to name an extreme licensing cond

Re:

[pjt33]

What you say about OSS is true but entirely irrelevant. It's one thing to restrict the way in which your product may be used, but entirely another to say that if your product is to be used to fulfil one contract with a third party then it must be used to fulfil all such contracts. That's abuse of a dominant market position, and it's astonishing that anyone should get away with it.

Re:

[Just Some Guy]

Even most open source involves minor constraints: a manufacturer cannot provide most open source software without including copies of the agreement and sometimes other constraints (like a guarantee that the software will not be used for military purposes to name an extreme licensing condition that occasionally shows up).

Nitpick: software with such restrictions is not Open Source [opensource.org] ("The license must not restrict anyone from making use of the program in a specific field of endeavor.") or Free Software [fsf.org] ("The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0)."). You might be able to look at the source code and even modify it under certain restrictions, but it definitely would not be FOSS. Don't refer to it as such because it's factually incorrect and it confuses people unnecessarily.

Re:

[khallow]

Eh, I think it would be wise to seperate the definition from the branding here. As I understand it, several if not most of the licenses allow you to impose additional conditions, for example, that you cannot make money with the software (Ghostscript, for example, is released under both a GPL license recognized by the OSI as "open source" and a commercial license). Second, sometimes the double speak is misleading. For example, "free software" may mean free to run, but it doesnt' mean free to use. For example

Re:

[sgtrock]

For example, I can't incorporate GPL 3 licensed code into my proprietary code without consequence.

Sigh. I am so tired of this particular whine from lazy sods who just want to take someone else's work without compensation.

Tell you what: When you can re-use code from Microsoft, Apple, Computer Associates, IBM, Oracle, or Joe's Bait Shop and Software Company that is only available under a standard commercial license in your proprietary code without consequence, then and only then can you complain about not being able to use GPL 3 licensed code in your proprietary code without consequence. Until then,

He got costs, too

[belmolis]

Not only was the buyer reimbursed 140 euros for the unwanted software, he was awarded 2,300 euros in legal costs. Refusing to abide by the EULA could get expensive for vendors.

Re:He got costs, too

[Gertlex]

Oh no, a bit of legal costs!

What I love about this case is that the reimbursement was completely in line with damages. None of that hundreds of thousands of dollars (euros) crap.

Re:

[pipatron]

That's usually how it works in Europe. Suing some company isn't like playing the lottery. If a company cause you damages, they will usually be forced to pay for the damages, legal costs, and possibly some small bonus on top of that, to compensate for the "discomfort" (can't find a good word here, I'm sure you get my point).

Re:

[mr_matticus]

No, it wouldn't. The whole case is a tort. The legal term would be damages, punitive damages in particular, and they're not awarded here because it's a contract issue.

You wouldn't get a windfall from this case in the US, either. I assume the reference in this thread is to the filesharing fine, but that is a case involving statutory damages--the law itself specifies a minimum and a maximum award simply for breaking the condition precedent. Thus copyright holders are entitled to large sums of money simply

You're just not seeing the big picture!

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

Why after factoring in the settlement, lawyers fees, court fees, missed income, inflation, risk hedging, emotional damage (because they're... y'know... priceless), instrument imprecision and error, the Earth's magnetism, and a little voodoo economics thrown in, the damages can easily soar past the 100,000 euro mark! You're obviously not a very good lawyer, if one at all.

Soon have to sign an agreement to get the product

[SuurMyy]

I wouldn't be surprised if this issue ending up being so that nobody would sell you a computer before you have signed an agreement stating that you agree w/having Windows etc. in there. Then, if someone took this to court, it would probably end up so that you could get some other OS pre-installed, but w/extra cost, and they could justify this by saying that it causes them extra costs to serve a small group of users having e.g. Linux in there. So, you'd still end up paying the M$ tax in one form or the othe

Re:

[Sique]

I wouldn't be surprised if this issue ending up being so that nobody would sell you a computer before you have signed an agreement stating that you agree w/having Windows etc. in there.

But that's actually the point! You can't read the EULA before you fire up the computer for the first time, and that's after the actual sale has happened. And the EULA explicitely states that it only covers software, documentation and services, but doesn't mention the hardware.

That's why the court says: This little piece of text doesn't affect the transfer of hardware for money.

If the EULA was printed out before the actual sale and had to be agreed upon as part of the sale, we had a completely different cas

Re:

[dangitman]

But that's actually the point! You can't read the EULA before you fire up the computer for the first time, and that's after the actual sale has happened.

Can't you read the EULA on the company's website? And isn't it usually printed on paper that comes with the software?

Re:

[SuiteSisterMary]

Can't you read the EULA on the company's website?

If you could, it would be a 'sample' or 'example' contract. But if you can't discuss it with somebody, it is *not*, legally speaking, a contract. No 'meeting of the minds' and all that.

And isn't it usually printed on paper that comes with the software?

Nope. It's almost invariably a text document that pops up as part of the install.

Re:

[drsmithy]

illegal in EU

I find it exceptionally difficult to believe signing a contract to say you're happy to buy product X with feature Y is illegal in the EU.

Re:

[Teun]

Bundling is generally illegal, that's largely what the Microsoft case was about.

Re:

[Dion]

Well, not exactly that, but consumer protection laws are very strict around here and one part of the protection is that any contract with worse terms than what the law provides is void.

That means that we have 2 year mandatory warranty on everything we buy and that it's impossible for stores to offer less than 2 years warranty.

i've tried it in Japan a couple of times,

[siddesu]

but so far all I got is an offer to get a refund for the whole unit, not just the OS. i suppose the reasoning goes that the PC is not a product by itself without the OS or something. since i buy notebooks, and there is practically no choice of cool notebooks without Windows, in the end i had to swallow it.

has anyone got any other experience in Japan?

Re:

[siddesu]

Not without the OS, I suppose. Besides, I am not sure why I would want one -- they are vastly inferior to many of the Windows models available in Japan.

Re:

[siddesu]

i suppose it is the cut-throat competition. the market is big, so a popular product is guaranteed to make a killing, but it has to be very good; wow-good is not good enough most of the time, and gadgets age very quickly.

i got a new mobile phone some weeks ago. it has brilliant 800x480 screen, can take better video than my 4-year old camcorder, make better pictures than a 2 year old digital camera and has a ton of other features -- like tv reception, gps, blah blah blah -- but it was a "2007 summer" model (i

This is what I've been saying!!

[mlwmohawk]

Regardless of how you feel about Microsoft, it is inarguable that consumers have little actual choice in the market place. Go to a store in the U.S.A. to buy a P.C. it will have Windows on it. You have go out of your way to get a computer WITHOUT windows, don't even talk to me about laptops.

EVERYONE who has issues with having the only choice being Vista or mail-order bare bones should buy their computer at a store and return it because you don't agree with the EULA or that you think Windows is unusable, or

Pc Ok in the Netherlands

[slashbart]

I recently went to this local store [pc-oke.nl] to get a new pc. I don't use Windows, and was expecting to have to haggle about not paying for it, but ... We configured my pc, tallied up the components, and then the guy says: "that price is without Windows, which Windows do you want on it?" Awesome!! So I tell him it's fine like it is. I'm very happy with the pc, and the price is great too.

I think people should go to those stores that sell bare pc's, instead of just complaining about the companies that won't give yo

Re:

[mlwmohawk]

So, besides having to pay for it the first time, we should have to pay the restocking fee for it, too?

ME, ME, ME, ME, ME. Yes, I'm sorry, but nothing changes unless people do something, and most of the time "doing something" may be a tad inconvenient.

Re:

[Teun]

No, a restocking fee should not be payable for a returned defective product.

Re:

[mlwmohawk]

Please!! People wake up, stop being so defeatist. Jeez, why the hell do anything? its probably a lot of work and no guarantee of success, so it isn't worth it! Where would we be with that attitude and apathy?

Give me a break. It doesn't require everyone, and it doesn't depend on "average joe," it only depends on the very small profit margin on computer hardware being sold to become out of balance with slightly elevated unhappy customer returns.

If a small but measurable percentage of people buy a computer, op

the obvious reason

[soldoutactivist]

I can't believe no one commented on the fact he might already have a copy of XP and used the EULA policy to get a refund for the retail amount of the OS he paid for at a subsidized cost. Essentially, he got more back than he actually paid in for the OS and software. Brilliant.

Well, that's one down ...

[ScrewMaster]

only another hundred million left to go.

So he can't use XP at all now?

[fluffy99]

If he's saying he won't or can't abide by the EULAs, doesn't that mean he can't use any computers that have XP or MS Word installed?

Contract of adhesion

[QuietLagoon]

It is looking more and more that the court systems of the world are looking to EULA click-through "agreements" as contracts of adhesion [law.com].

some highlights from the original news source

[mennucc1]

the Google translation is not very readable; when I proposed this submission [slashdot.org], I did summarize as follows:
HP defended , claiming the terms of their contract with Microsoft; the judge ruled that the end user request may not be dismissed based on a contract between HP and Microsoft, since this latter is unknown to the end user. The end user, a member of ADUC (a consumer organization) was given 90euro for Windows and 50euro for Works; this is just a small symbolical amount, but it is a huge signal to HP and all other major vendor; in defending, HP claimed that the license and contract to Microsoft is unilaterally written by Microsoft; the judge ruled that nonetheless, HP is to be held accountable by the EULA; the ruling seem to suggest that it may be time for vendors to address this situation.

Windows Refund Day

[magpi3]

Brings back memories. http://marc.merlins.org/linux/refundday/ [merlins.org]

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

This guy bought a computer with XP installed and he's griping about it? Perhaps he would have preferred a computer with no OS?

We buy machines with no OS all the time (actually Dell ships FreeDOS but it's not installed). Perhaps the user in question was wanting to install a free OS on it?

Re:

[pipatron]

I'm sure the poor guy was just trying to replace his old Amiga.

Why on earth would anyone want to do such a thing?!

Re:

[mikelieman]

Helpful Hint: When someone gives you one of them "Direct Numbers", tell 'em to hold on a sec, whip out your cellphone, and dial it WHILE THE SUCKER IS STILL ON THE LINE.

That way, you can call "Bullshit" to his face.