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Italian Judge Tells HP To Refund Pre-Installed XP
Posted by
kdawson
on Sat Oct 27, 2007 09:24 PM
from the fair's-fair dept.
from the fair's-fair dept.
Paolo DF writes "An Italian user asked for a refund after buying a Compaq computer that came with Windows XP and Works 8 pre-installed. HP tried to avoid the EULA agreement which states, approximately: '[I]f the end user is not willing to abide by this EULA... he shall immediately contact the producer to get info for giving back the product and obtaining refunds.' The court ruled in favor of the user (Google translation from the Italian), who received back €90 for XP and €50 for Works. Here is the ruling (PDF, Italian)."
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Technology: Amazon UK Refunds Windows License Fee, With Little Hassle 194 comments
christian.einfeldt writes "Alan Lord, a FOSS computer consultant based in the UK, has announced that Amazon UK honored his request for a refund of the Microsoft license fee portion of the cost of a new Asus netbook PC that came with Microsoft Windows XP. Lord details the steps that he took to obtain a refund of 40.00 GBP for the cost of the EULA, complete with links to click to request a refund. Lord's refund comes 10 years after the initial flurry of activity surrounding EULA discounts, started by a blog post by Australian computer consultant Geoffrey Bennett which appeared on Slashdot on 18 January 1999. That Slashdot story led to mainstream press coverage, such as stories in CNN, the New York Times Online, and the San Francisco Chronicle, to name just a few. The issue quieted down for a few years, but has started to gain some momentum again in recent years, with judges in France, Italy, and Israel awarding refunds. But if Lord's experience is any indication, getting a refund through Amazon might be as easy as filling out a few forms, at least in the UK, without any need to go to court."
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Progress. (Score:5, Interesting)
True, this is but 1 user but every little helps as we say in the UK.
Re:Progress. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not just one user. It's a legal precedent. Now Italian Linux users may be more likely to request refunds for Windows licenses that come with computers, and since there's a legal precedent, the vendors may be more likely to comply.
Parent
Re:Progress. (Score:4, Interesting)
This is good news for the consumer. The ad news is that this will not harm Microsoft in the least, even if EVERYBODY would do this. It will be the computercompanies who will need to caugh this one up.
They will not be able to get their money back from Microsoft. So either they will start loosing money (because they do not make that much on a PC) in Italy, or stop selling PC's altogether.
Most likely the latter will be happening with other companies, like Dell. The result will be that larger companies will not be selling computers in Italy. Tghis will result in lower quality and people who want Windows paying more. So if the consumer wants the same product, he will end up paying more then he does now.
The solution? Have this implemented in the rest of Europe. The European market is big enough to force a change and balsy enough to force Microsoft to pay back the companies in full.
After that South America will follow and then Asia. Africa, Austriala, Canada and Mexico will follow after that. The USofA? They will follow the moment the consumers have some rights, except the right to shut up and spend money. Sorry.
Parent
Re:Progress. (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:Progress. (Score:4, Funny)
The Via Dolorosa's pretty narrow. Also, it's in Jerusalem.
Parent
Re:Now, if I only could get a refound for McOS (Score:4, Informative)
Why don't you check the EULA that came with your copy of OSX. Does it say that you can return it for a refund?
Parent
Re:Progress. (Score:4, Informative)
I believe this is referring to the Windows EULA, which only discusses your non-rights w.r.t. Windows, and doesn't discuss the hardware at all. I don't have it handy, but when I read it [and when it's come up before in slashdot, for the odd person getting a refund in the US], the EULA explicitly states [at least for the US] that you have the right to return the software [specifically] for a full refund if you don't agree with the EULA.
And I don't think MS wants to revise the EULA to force the return of the computer as well, because then it explicitly goes back to that monopoly situation, where for the large vendors, you must then buy Windows to get a computer. Now, it's just a big hassle for both the consumer and the vendor to buy a computer without Windows [in general], but it's not legally forced by Microsoft [except perhaps in some non-pubic legal agreements between the vendors and Microsoft, where they pay for each computer shipped instead of each Windows license shipped - Windows licenses refunded].
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
For that to apply you would have to sign an agreement when you bought the computer. You agree to the EULA after you have bought the hardware, so it cannot affect your ownership of the hardware. In any case, it is an MS EULA that only applies to the software.
Time to break out the classic flawed analogy.
Corrected that for you.
Re:Progress. (Score:5, Insightful)
What if I wanted Windows but decided to use another OS because I did not wish to agree with a clause in the EULA? I already own the hardware and have every right to keep it, so I should be able reject the EULA and get a refund on Windows.
According to you, MS should be able to impose whatever arbitrary conditions they want on the use of a produce AFTER getting paid for it, and consumers should have no alternatives other than not using the product (which they have paid for) or agreeing to MS's conditions. Now that really is incredible.
As for paying for the war etc., are you suggesting that no-one should raise any minor issue until all major political issues are sorted out? Then you can NEVER raise any consumer rights issue because there will always be something more important.
You do realise that complaining about MS does not preclude caring about other issues. I am opposed to the US invasion of Iraq AND corruption AND anti-competitive product bundling.
Yes, I can actually have opinions on three issues at once. If your brain explodes if you have to think about more than one issue a month, that is your problem.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Some Land Rovers use Jaguar engines too, but both companies are also owned by Ford..
The diesels may use technology developed by Peugeot, but licensed to ford who produce the engines.
And even if ford use a third party engine, you still get a choice... Most cars are available with a choice of diesel or petrol engines of various sizes.
MS Tax (Score:5, Insightful)
50 Euros for Works, $70.
so why do we only get back around $10 for a XP turn in?
Re:MS Tax (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:MS Tax (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:MS Tax (Score:5, Funny)
Telling Microsoft to take their software to the dumpster: Priceless.
Parent
Re:MS Tax (Score:5, Funny)
50 Euros for Works, $70.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
90 euros for XP, $130
50 Euros for Works, $70.
Canadian dollars, right? So in American that guy just got back $10k, right? Payday!
According to the X-Rates [x-rates.com] currency calculator 140 euros is 201.46 US dollars and 193.784 Canadian dollars.
FalconRe: (Score:2)
as if many thousands of pounds [wikipedia.org] cried out in a screaming arc over your head.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
He implied ~$100 CDN was ~$10k American. Hence, he implied that the American dollar was around a hundredth what a canadian dollar is.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Any other attempts at this? (Score:3, Insightful)
Plenty of other (successful) attempts at this... (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:Any other attempts at this? (Score:5, Informative)
Assuming the EULA is the same in the US and elsewhere, I wonder why this has not been tried before, and if it has, does anyone know the outcome?
It may be a hassle but people in the US have been getting refunds for years. Here's an article, "Windows license opens door for Linux refund" [cnn.com] on how people in the late '90s were requesting refunds. It mentions /. and how /.ers got involved.
FalconParent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Assuming the EULA is the same in the US and elsewhere, I wonder why this has not been tried before, and if it has, does anyone know the outcome? This has far reaching implications beyond HP. Any computer manufacturer would be affected, but the EULA seems to point heavily to the refunding procedure, not of Microsoft, but of the reseller. It should be interesting to see how HP responds.
It is and it has. There was a case recently in I think a French court where one of the big names was being awkward, and the court awarded the customer the full retail cost of all the software they rejected instead of just the OEM price. This was obviously a penalty for the company being difficult about obeying the EULA. And there have been a few others where people have demanded a refund as specified in the EULA, and reported their adventures in getting satisfaction.
Its a case of "don't like it.. Don't buy
Approximately? (Score:2)
States approximately? I'd prefer to know exactly before I made any conclusions.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
EULA agreement which states, approximately: '[I]f the end user is not willing to abide by this EULA... he shall immediately contact the producer to get info for giving back the product and obtaining refunds.'
States approximately? I'd prefer to know exactly before I made any conclusions.
If you're in the US you want the version of the EULA for the US, the Italian version is only good in Italy. It's been years but when I had to agree after getting a new PC, in the US, it basically said if I didn't
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
"IMPORTANT--READ CAREFULLY: This End-User License Agreement ("EULA") is a legal agreement between you (either an individual or a single entity) and Microsoft Corporation or one of its affiliates ("Microsoft") for the Microsoft software that accompanies this EULA, which includes computer software and may include associated media, printed materials, "online" or ele
Italian Day at /.? (Score:4, Funny)
Well, kudos to Italy for making the front page of slashdot 3 times in one day, finally constructing a mechanical device that didn't break down immediately, and ending up with a score in the green.
Ciao!
slashdot effect to hit Italy? (Score:2)
3 Italian stories on slashdot frontpage at short intervals... Who bets that Italian Internet will slow down to sub-28.8 speeds as Italy feels the slashdot effect?
It would be fun (maybe not for the sysadmins though) to have organised country TLDs slashdottings, eg agree for one day to surf only pages ending in a particular country's TLD.
It would then become more apparent that the modern Internet does not share the intended reliability and high-availability of arpanet. There are too many SPOFs in modern
Italy is going to go down hard (Score:3, Informative)
Three stories on Italy so far is nothing. We need to get posting submissions about the 16 billion pixel image of da Vinci's Last Supper [bbc.co.uk]. This one could be the big one [haltadefinizione.com]
Work still has to be done (Score:2)
Re:Work still has to be done (Score:5, Funny)
No winder it went off-line !
Parent
Don't get it (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
As far as the EULA clearly referring to the entire computer, I'd disagree. The EULA in question is Microsoft's EULA, not the manufacturers. If you go and buy XP off the shelf, you get the same EULA. You wouldn't go and return your computer just because you tried to install XP on it, now would you?
"If you do not accept the conditions of this contract, you may not use or copy the software and should promptly contact the
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The only trouble with this is how can a third party software vendor dictate any agreement between a hardware manufacturer and a buyer.
Actually this is pretty easy in practice. Microsoft makes a deal with the hardware vendor to bundle their software on the machine. Part of the agreement involves conditions on the agreement bewteen manufacturer and buyer. Even most open source involves minor constraints: a manufacturer cannot provide most open source software without including copies of the agreement and sometimes other constraints (like a guarantee that the software will not be used for military purposes to name an extreme licensing cond
He got costs, too (Score:5, Informative)
Not only was the buyer reimbursed 140 euros for the unwanted software, he was awarded 2,300 euros in legal costs. Refusing to abide by the EULA could get expensive for vendors.
Re:He got costs, too (Score:5, Insightful)
What I love about this case is that the reimbursement was completely in line with damages. None of that hundreds of thousands of dollars (euros) crap.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You wouldn't get a windfall from this case in the US, either. I assume the reference in this thread is to the filesharing fine, but that is a case involving statutory damages--the law itself specifies a minimum and a maximum award simply for breaking the condition precedent. Thus copyright holders are entitled to large sums of money simply
Soon have to sign an agreement to get the product (Score:2, Insightful)
i've tried it in Japan a couple of times, (Score:2)
has anyone got any other experience in Japan?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Contract of adhesion (Score:4, Informative)
some highlights from the original news source (Score:4, Informative)
HP defended , claiming the terms of their contract with Microsoft; the judge ruled that the end user request may not be dismissed based on a contract between HP and Microsoft, since this latter is unknown to the end user. The end user, a member of ADUC (a consumer organization) was given 90euro for Windows and 50euro for Works; this is just a small symbolical amount, but it is a huge signal to HP and all other major vendor; in defending, HP claimed that the license and contract to Microsoft is unilaterally written by Microsoft; the judge ruled that nonetheless, HP is to be held accountable by the EULA; the ruling seem to suggest that it may be time for vendors to address this situation.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
This guy bought a computer with XP installed and he's griping about it? Perhaps he would have preferred a computer with no OS?
We buy machines with no OS all the time (actually Dell ships FreeDOS but it's not installed). Perhaps the user in question was wanting to install a free OS on it?
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Why on earth would anyone want to do such a thing?!