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Justice Department Opposes Net Neutrality 292

thornomad writes "I was saddened (though not surprised) to read that the Justice Department opposes net neutrality saying that it could 'hamper development of the internet.' While it may seem counter-intuitive to me, they argue that allowing ISPs to provide different levels of service/speed for different content will benefit consumers. They did promise to 'continue to monitor and enforce any anticompetitive conduct to ensure a competitive broadband marketplace' — not that anyone was worried about that."
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Justice Department Opposes Net Neutrality

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  • Bravo (Score:3, Funny)

    by HangingChad ( 677530 ) on Thursday September 06, 2007 @07:19PM (#20501615) Homepage

    You're doing a heck of a job, Roberto.

    • Re:Bravo (Score:4, Insightful)

      by griffjon ( 14945 ) <GriffJon@@@gmail...com> on Thursday September 06, 2007 @08:12PM (#20502023) Homepage Journal
      "continue to monitor and enforce any anticompetitive conduct to ensure a competitive broadband marketplace"

      Like, maybe, cutting out copper infrastructures when installing FiOS, locking the current and any future customers in to one vendor?

      Antitrust lost its fangs under Clinton and the rest of its teeth under Shrub. It's not even bother to gum corporations anymore.
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by kawabago ( 551139 )
      The DoJ seems to have become and arm of corporate america. Freedom was nice while it lasted. Bye!
  • by casualsax3 ( 875131 ) on Thursday September 06, 2007 @07:19PM (#20501617)
    This is the DoJ saying it's legal to have different levels and quality of service. A good analogy would be "should I have the option of paying UPS more to get my package to its destination faster". The answer is an obvious yes - there's nothing wrong with priority traffic. If you want to pay to have your data moved faster, why shouldn't you be able to?

    This is already the case with a lot of webhosting providers - many run two networks, one with quality bandwidth blends that cost more for them to operate and result in lower ping times and higher throughput, and one with inexpensive (read: crappy) Cogent bandwidth.

    This whole price to performance thing has been around forever - there are already massive tiers of quality built into the internet, both on the consumer end and the content provider end. Take a look at Akamai and Limelight - you'll pay absurd amounts of money to have your content hosted on their CDN - sometimes several dollars per GB transfered.

    Then take a look at a webhost like Colo4Dallas, Voxel, or The Planet and you'll find that they as well offer expensive fast bandwidth, or cheap slower bandwidth. Also keep in mind that you can pay Time Warner, Optimum Online, or Verizon an extra monthly fee to bump up your speed. Should that be against the rules?

    Prioritizing web traffic isn't really the major issue. I think your original analogy doesn't apply to this particular article, however it's a good analogy which hits on another core issue of "net neutrality" - ie the type of filtering that Comcast has been caught doing over the last few days. I think the headline is a bit misleading, as the DoJ isn't coming out against Net Neutrality - they're coming out and saying this is already how shit works, and there's nothing wrong with it. Now if they came out and said what Comcast is doing is alright, that would certainly justify the headline...

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by king-manic ( 409855 )
      The sticking point is most of the current infrastructure the government and indirectly we paid for. So it'd be like someone offering 3 different speed limits depending on what your willing to pay to get our of your own driveway.
      • Comment removed (Score:4, Informative)

        by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday September 06, 2007 @09:31PM (#20502701)
        Comment removed based on user account deletion
        • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

          by PacketScan ( 797299 )
          Well it's a very Blurry line.
          Tax Incentives / Breaks.. Spend 30 minutes poking around on google you'll be sick.
        • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

          by Anonymous Coward
          You don't believe the American people have been indirectly paying for their infrastructure over the last 10 years?

          Who paid for it? Lolcats?
      • by aldousd666 ( 640240 ) on Thursday September 06, 2007 @11:13PM (#20503451) Journal
        Indirectly like the fact that Verizon got a huge tax windfall in PA for signing a contract to lay fiber to distribute internet to 98% of the state by 1998. Wait.. what year is it? I don't think verizon should have to do anything you ask them to as a consumer, if you don't like the service, don't buy it; however, they do have a contractual obligation, and they did sign up for that, so they had better either deliver, or pay the price, somehow. I actually had to MOVE so I could get broad band, and I lived only 2 miles outside of a moderately sized 'big-small-town.' I don't think as a rule they should be required to lease lines out in general to last miles, but given the circumstances of their contract with PA, I think they should in those cases have to sign at least someone up for a last mile in 98% of the places they have a mainline, if they don't want to carry it themselves I mean. If it wasn't feasible, they shouldn't have signed the agreement. End of story. I do think that it is their own right to regulate their own traffic if they are indeed providing the service. You can't have any such thing as an SLA without being able to somehow control the service... I'd pay a tax for government internet, as long as I get what I paid for. I somehow don't see them being able to do it though, so lets just make sure the private companies do what they say they'll do like any other business.
        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          You can't have any such thing as an SLA without being able to somehow control the service...

          An 'SLA' is simply a Service Line Agreement [wikipedia.org], which when it comes to the Internet and Internet traffic, to properly provide means that the SLP (Service Line Provider) must not do anything to control traffic on that line - they're right under an SLA is to make sure the traffic gets to where it is suppose to go.

          While the road analogies are bad, they are the closest. But think of it this way - you contract an 'SLA' t

    • by driftingwalrus ( 203255 ) on Thursday September 06, 2007 @07:22PM (#20501653) Homepage
      The biggest problem is that the analogy is to postal mail. Mail is a batched system, whereas the internet is not. The analogy is profoundly and egregiously flawed. It exposes a profound lack of understanding in regards the function of the internet.
      • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

        by deKernel ( 65640 )
        I would disagree with you. What the parent was trying to explain (and he did a pretty good job in my opinion) is that most service type agreements have a level of speed/priority which equates to cost. Translation: If you want something now versus tomorrow, it will cost you more.

        Also, you might want to see just how companies like UPS and such do their 'batches' as you call them. They provide several pickups for packages depending on the priority (oops, pun there!) of the package as well as dispatches of majo
        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by AKAImBatman ( 238306 )

          Translation: If you want something now versus tomorrow, it will cost you more.

          You mean like how I pay Comcast through the nose so I can get legal downloads like Zelda Retrospective DVD [wiinintendo.net] (alt link [thepiratebay.org]) NOW, but instead I'm plodding along at 30KB/sec because Comcast is throttling me?

          Sorry, poor torrent service is a pet peeve of mine. Otherwise I agree with both of you completely. :-)

    • by Opportunist ( 166417 ) on Thursday September 06, 2007 @07:24PM (#20501663)
      Where your analogy fails is that the one paying is on the other end of the traffic. With UPS, I, the buyer, have to pay. The seller doesn't care at all whether I want it overnight or standard, for him, it does not matter.

      Without net neutrality, the "seller" (the content provider) is the one getting the bill. And yes, that is a competition issue. Large corporations will most certainly not have a problem paying for the "premium" service, while it could be a real problem for small startups which can now easily compete with established companies if they provide a better service. Without NN, it takes a lot more money to get into the content game.
      • by thule ( 9041 )
        It's called peering. I read some time ago that Yahoo only payed for half of its bandwidth. What that means is that only half of its traffic goes over their transit links. The other half (at the time) is peered directly to eyeball networks (aka ISP's) so it can bypass backbone networks. The outcome of this is that it gets lower ping times and more bandwidth to these networks. We *want* peering. Peering is good.
        • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

          by Lordpidey ( 942444 )
          That is setting up a network differently to make something faster. What we are worried about is setting up a network to make everything ELSE slower.
          • Yes, but the funniest part is that although *some* of a pages content will zip right along, it won't be rendered until the slow, cheap ads finish loading!
      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        See, there isn't anything wrong with pricing tiers for the individual users wanting to access the internet at varying speeds and reliabilties. The problem comes in when they also want to charge the people _with_ the content for the users visiting their site; it's extortion, pure and simple. On top of that, they want to prioritize the protocols going over their networks. It makes sense for network administrators to prioritize certain protocols in order to achieve a more efficient network; however, they wa
      • by seebs ( 15766 )
        The seller is, after all, buying bandwidth too.

        Consider this: If the "seller" (or "content provider") is e360, do you want a law in place that says I can't discriminate against their traffic?
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by farkus888 ( 1103903 ) *
      there is a HUGE difference between allowing me to pay more for higher bandwith to my house so I can download your website as fast as the bandwith you paid for allows and both of us getting charged to get the bandwith we already paid for prioritized so we can actually use it. they want to charge you so that once it gets past your link and on to the backbone of the net it doesn't get the brakes slammed slowing it back down. basically this is a chance to make us pay twice for speed. I don't mind paying but I t
    • by cnet-declan ( 958524 ) on Thursday September 06, 2007 @07:31PM (#20501741)
      Yep. As you said, the DoJ isn't coming out against Net neutrality.

      The headline should have said something closer to "DoJ opposes new Net neutrality *laws*."

      One additional word. But a big difference.
      • i don't see any difference. given the typical behavior of corporations, net neutrality will never exist unless it is legally enforced. even if some providers decides not to throttle anything, their NSP can decide to throttle something or someone else down the line does, the providers policy is meaningless. for network neutrality to work, EVERYONE needs to follow, which doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell without legislation.
    • The Justice Department on Thursday said Internet service providers should be allowed to charge a fee for priority Web traffic.

      This is not the same as charging more for a bigger pipe, this is charging based on *what* you down/upload.
    • Yes it is. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by raehl ( 609729 ) <raehl311@@@yahoo...com> on Thursday September 06, 2007 @07:58PM (#20501941) Homepage
      It only specifies 'users'. It doesn't specify whether the users are end consumers or not.

      A better analogy would be:

      "Should Intel be able to pay UPS to look inside your packages, and if it contains AMD chips, sit on the package for an extra day or two?"

      Your analogy applies to the current situation, where ISPs already charge different prices for different bandwidths. So this DOJ thing can't be about that, since it's about preventing something that doesn't already exist.

      It's about enabling ISPs to require end-consumers to pay more for faster delivery of content. The only way that can work is if at least some content is intentionally delivered SLOWER than the user's paid-for bandwidth.
    • I am confused. The problem is not paying for a bigger pipe, the problem is that speeds will be determined in part by content. In other words, some sites will load faster than others on the same connection. I have no problem kicking speakeasy extra bucks for a faster connection; I do have a problem if they get to choose which of my packets is speedier.

      Speakeasy is of course the google of ISPs, but don't be surprised if you start to see abuse of this system. AT&T has a deal with myMusic? Wow, my iTunes
    • One thing I've realized with this administration is that it pays to be a bit paranoid. My gut is telling me that this has less to do with competitive internet service and more to do with carriers segregating traffic which would make it easier to conduct eavesdropping on things like VOIP and email without having to sort thru tons of torrent traffic.
    • by Mozk ( 844858 )
      The problem isn't different levels, it's the company picking and choosing what's fast or slow on the same level. For example, an ISP could choose to speed up MSN traffic (with Microsoft paying them) while slowing down Yahoo! traffic, but I am paying the same price whichever website I visit. That is where your UPS analogy breaks apart, as edwdig mentions [slashdot.org]. It would be equivalent to me buying two equally priced items of the same weight and shape but produced by two different companies, and having UPS decide to
  • ok (Score:5, Insightful)

    by nomadic ( 141991 ) <nomadicworld@ g m a i l . com> on Thursday September 06, 2007 @07:30PM (#20501727) Homepage
    Who the hell cares? They shouldn't even have an official position on this; the Justice Department has certain specific duties and interests, and setting communications or commerce policy is not one of them. They have neither the expertise nor the authority to even contribute to the debate.
    • by Nimey ( 114278 )
      The Justice Department, sure. But this is the Spock's-beard-universe Justice Department, run by political hacks.
    • "Who the hell cares? They shouldn't even have an official position on this; the Justice Department has certain specific duties and interests, and setting communications or commerce policy is not one of them. They have neither the expertise nor the authority to even contribute to the debate."

      THEY care because they are told to care. Law enforcement agencies (FBI, DIS, NIS, CIA, you name the rest) care because in their deepest nightmares, a service provider might go outside the known, standard protocols and en
    • Re:ok (Score:5, Funny)

      by nEoN nOoDlE ( 27594 ) on Thursday September 06, 2007 @08:52PM (#20502389)
      They have neither the expertise nor the authority to even contribute to the debate.

      Yeah! I'll take my expertise and authority from a bunch of armchair economists on Slashdot, thank you very much!
  • so $500M (Score:3, Interesting)

    by onion_joe ( 625886 ) <jmerrill1234.gmail@com> on Thursday September 06, 2007 @07:31PM (#20501743)
    in taxpayer subsidies for infrastructure upgrades and they are still hurting for cash?

    My brain asplodes. -OJ

    • An old Southern proverb went something like: give beggar at inch, and he'll take an el.

      Why exactly should I as a taxpayer subsidize some guy's 100 GBytes/month consumer cable traffic that he gets for peanuts? No, you do not have a constitutional right to discounted "moviez" and porn.
  • by siddesu ( 698447 ) on Thursday September 06, 2007 @07:32PM (#20501751)
    and not about the consumer, or the "development of teh internets".

    when a company charges consumers different prices for the same thing (bandwidth) based on usage patterns (and not some characteristics of the service), that strongly implies the company is using (in)elasticity of demand to extract larger profits than a competitive market would allow them to. that implies monopoly-like power and, while is good for the company, it is bad for everyone else.

    the real question is why then would the government propose laws that will encourage monopoly and enhance profits of the few large players in the game. what is the deal -- more control over internet usage? easier access to information about users of the internets? both? more?
    • by ect5150 ( 700619 )
      I don't have mod points to mod you up, but at least someone else here finally understands the economics of the situations (the discriminating monopolist model). So I say thank you!

      The fix to all bandwidth issues is to have a true level of competition in the market place. The issues of pricing/availability/speed would fix themselves if this were truly encouraged by the government.

      I can see the need to have temporary monopoly power in the sense its a price to pay for growth. But when better tech exists else
  • by karl.auerbach ( 157250 ) on Thursday September 06, 2007 @07:33PM (#20501761) Homepage
    This is the same justice department that eviscerated the anti-trust judgment against Microsoft that the proceeding administration worked so hard to obtain.

    And this is the same justice department that can't seem to see that ICANN is a combination in restraint of trade on the internet that is costing domain name consumers something on the order of $500,000,000 per year in excessive fees for domain names.

    So I wouldn't expect to see this Justice department to notice even the total destruction of the end-to-end principle.

    My prediction: The internet will soon resemble the US cellular phone system - a system of provider shaped lumps of good connectivity, for paid-for applications, and only enough free inter-provider HTTP/HTTPS connectivity to keep the level of customer complaints manageable.

    And perhaps we might even see mandatory provider-centric, provider crippled user software, just like we have provider centric, provider-crippled cell phones.

    • It's not so much the Justice Dept as it is the Decider, really. The Decider wants the telcos to be able to make $lots, and so he gives the politicals running Justice their marching orders.
    • And this is the same justice department that can't seem to see that ICANN is a combination in restraint of trade on the internet that is costing domain name consumers something on the order of $500,000,000 per year in excessive fees for domain names.

      Have any more information on this? This is the first I've heard that claim against ICANN.
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        Well, this is getting a bit off topic - but OK.

        There are several indicators that suggest that the actual cost to provide a domain name registration at the registry level is only a few cents per year (I estimate that it is less than $0.03).

        ICANN requires that Verisign receive more than $7 for each name in .com each year. That's a fiat transfer of roughly $6.97 from you and me to Verisign every year for each of the 60,000,000+ names in .com. That works out to very roughly $400,000,000 per year. Add in simi
  • by gillbates ( 106458 ) on Thursday September 06, 2007 @07:34PM (#20501779) Homepage Journal

    Just like patents, we in America need a profit-making monopoly to encourage progress in the useful arts and sciences. Because, everyone knows that businesses won't invest in technology unless they can turn it into a profit-making monopoly and shut out the competition. ;-)

    Some people think of progress as something that enriches all of humankind. Obviously, these people don't work for the Justice Department - whose notion of progress is measured by how much money is being made from things formerly given away for free. Apparently, progress isn't progress unless you can put a dollar value on it and sell it. It's called Market Creation(TM), and it is considered a Good Thing(TM) by those who believe Corporate America(SM) is the savior of the working classes.

    After all, every politician drools at the prospect of creating jobs out of thin air. The rights of the consumer, OTOH, don't seem so important.

    Now is the time for us to raise our concerns with our elected officials. Write or call a senator. Send them an email before it becomes "premium content" and subject to an additional surcharge.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Shihar ( 153932 )
      First, the DoJ just said that it was legal to offer non-neutral services. It said that it is legal because it is. You can be pissed off at the DoJ for saying it, but not saying it wouldn't make it any less true. The legislator is responsible for passing net neutrality laws, not the DoJ. The DoJ couldn't "mandate" net neutrality even if they wanted to.

      Second, the whole 'net neutrality' debate is descended into the heights of ideological idiocracy. I would swear listening to the two sides that taking a s
  • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday September 06, 2007 @07:36PM (#20501787)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • by rm999 ( 775449 )
      "This is what we get for allowing non-technical people to make fundamental decisions about the appropriate use of technology."

      That's unfair - I'm a technical person, and I am against *legislation that forces net neutrality.* Here are different reasons why:

      From a theoretical point of view, a non-neutral network has more POWER than a neutral one. It is, by definition, more flexible. In other words, it reduces to neutral network if no actual action is taken.

      From an economist's point of view, a non-neutral netw
  • by kimvette ( 919543 ) on Thursday September 06, 2007 @07:47PM (#20501855) Homepage Journal
    They did promise to "continue to monitor and enforce any anticompetitive conduct to ensure a competitive broadband marketplace"

    It kept Microsoft in check. Why, in 1999 Windows was $89 and Microsoft Windows was pretty much a monopoly, and the users had no real choice in the marketplace, and the bundled MSIE was being forced on users, knocking competitors out of the market - they were leveraging a monopoly to gain market share in another market. It was choose Windows, or you couldn't interoperate with anyone.

    Now, thanks to the harsh antitrust rulings against Microsoft, Windows is now only $299, MSIE comes bundled with the OS, and you get the Microsoft sidebar with live/msn search integration whether you want it or not, and Windows is hardly the only choice for the average consumer.

    Of course I expect the DoJ to monitor broadband providers to ensure they play fair.
    • Just a side note... Windows 98 was $89 in 1999... Now... converting to 1980's dollars... that $89 in 2000 was about $186 (1980) dollars... Which equates to about $75 (2006) dollars... Which is fairly close to the price of Windows XP Professional currently... And you can easily find Vista Home for around $110 (2007)... so while the price has gone up (about 55% based on inflation)... it's only gone up about $20...

      Now... comparing Windows 98 to XP Pro a couple of years ago you would see a much bigger differe

      • by MeNeXT ( 200840 )
        are you talking about? 1980????

        I'm not here to argue economics but the simple fact that you are comparing a full version to the crippled version makes your argument nul.

        There are so many flaws in your statements and in your math... what gives? Inflation averaged 2% per year at most. Compound it. 9 years. Where do you get the 20? Then compare full version with full version or home version with ...none. Compare retail with retail...

        You are a Microsoft apologist.

        If you take all factors in consideration Window
        • Well... You generally choose one year to base the estimates on... the current year that most estimates are based on are 1980's dollars... Compare the buying power of the dollar between the years...

          All of the numbers used were based on wikipedia's current figures...

          And I compared Windows 98 with both XP Professional and Vista Home...

          Mind showing the flaws in my math? Again, I based the purchase price of Windows '98 in the year 2000, and compared it to the price of Windows XP Pro now, and the price o

      • by Nimey ( 114278 )
        Where's Pac-Man when you need him?
    • Huh? I paid... $100 or so for my copy of Vista Home Premium, from Newegg. Unless we're talking the Ultimate edition or something, no way does it cost $299.

      And what the hell is the Microsoft sidebar with live/msn search integration you're talking about? That doesn't ring a bell for me, where exactly is it?

      • I have no idea what he's talking about. My new Dell came with Home Premium and the sidebar is actually hooked into Google, not Live Search. I don't know what the Vista Home Premium installs by default, it might be Live Search, but it's a real stretch to say every Vista computer comes with it.
      • Compare retail price to retail price as found on the shelf in best buy, etc. not retail to OEM.
  • by iamacat ( 583406 ) on Thursday September 06, 2007 @07:53PM (#20501905)
    Anything after the first paragraph is only available to subscribers. Shouldn't all slashdot users have an option to TFA, as rare as such a desire might be.
  • like this one in San Francisco, California:
    ,
    http://sf.meraki.net/overview [meraki.net]

    I mean really. It is deplorable that the product of a publicly funded project (ARPANET) could be privatized in this fashion. So if the big telcos and cable companies think that they can eat our lunch, just let them try. Hopefully, the more they try to lock it down, the faster their business models will be commoditized by mesh networks.
  • That would be great if there was any competition available for internet access. Cable or DSL.
  • DOJ? WTF? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by onemorechip ( 816444 ) on Thursday September 06, 2007 @08:43PM (#20502297)
    What does the DOJ have to do with Internet regulation? I could see this as a Dept. of Commerce thing, but Justice?
  • by datapharmer ( 1099455 ) on Thursday September 06, 2007 @08:44PM (#20502317) Homepage
    So how's that 'ol freenet project coming along? Is there a mesh wireless network plugin I can use? Can everyone just buy 2 wireless cards and create one really ginormous ad hoc network?
  • This doesn't really fall within the DoJ's charter. Let the Deparment of Commerce figure out how markets should be structured and regulated.


    If Net Neutrality has any bearing on isues such as bank fraud, identity theft, etc. (I really doubt it), then they have something to say. Otherwise, shut the hell up! They are having enough trouble doing their own job, let alone sticking their nose into other people's business.

  • So, assuming this is based on how much traffic a site gets, how much do you think a site like slashdot or digg will get charged? Probably so much that it would bankrupt them, it will be the same for everyone else who do not have deep pockets. This is just a legal way for corporations to go into collusion to kill off the small/independent web sites(think of RIAA and net radio for example). All those people who are against net neutrality will be singing a different tune when it takes you minutes instead of
  • "The FCC should be highly skeptical of calls to substitute special economic regulation of the Internet for free and open competition enforced by the antitrust laws."

    Open competition means nothing when you have one cable ISP monopoly and one telco DSL monopoly who has yet to drop a DSLAM anywhere nearby, and no other options. The DoJ is Scum here, when it comes to protecting the citizen against predatory big business.

  • "hamper development of the internet."

    Ya. If it weren't for Neutrality this Intar-web thingy would be *much* more popular by now.

  • tell me how many times this 'monitoring' have prevented uncompetitive practices EVEN in retail sector. and they are gonna 'monitor' it in internet - like its even practically possible to prevent abuse.

    justice department is definitely on the list of public enemy institutions list. bought out by mafiaa.

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