US May Invoke "State Secrets" To Stop Banking Suit 211
An anonymous reader sends us to the International Herald Tribune for news that the Bush administration is signaling that it plans to turn once again to a favorite legal tool, the 'state secrets' privilege. The administration wants to shut down a lawsuit brought against Swift, a huge Belgium banking cooperative that that the article calls the "nerve center of the global banking industry," after it was revealed that Swift secretly let the CIA comb through millions of private financial records. Quoting: "Two US banking customers sued Swift on invasion-of-privacy grounds. Many legal and financial analysts expected that the lawsuit would be thrown out because US banking privacy laws are considered much more lax than those in much of Europe. But to the surprise of many, a judge refused to throw out the lawsuit in a ruling in June."
Workaround (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Workaround (Score:5, Informative)
In order to be able to perform its function swift is registered in nearly all countries around the globe. Quite a few of them have considerably more strict privacy laws combined with considerably more strict banking regulations. In addition to that in some of them the possibility for political intervention in favour of the defendant will be very slim. Frankly, I am surprised it is not being sued in Switherland.
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So, uhhhh, when.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So, uhhhh, when.... (Score:4, Funny)
I know it sounds like that's got nuthin' to do with the CIA combin' threw all them fi-nan-chial transactshuns but it does. I swears it does.
We gotta hunt them terr'ists everwhere they are fownd! I give up my freedumbs so's I can be safe from terra!
Re:So, uhhhh, when.... (Score:5, Funny)
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I have lived in Texas all my life.
I have never in my life spoken any language with a Texas accent.
I've heard the Deep South drawl all my life, but never from someone who is thoughtful or considerate, let alone intelligent. It's a problem not because it implies poor diction or ignorance, but because it reliably represents a specific flavor of thoughtless, hostile, institutionalized idiocy. The stereotype didn't come from nothing.
And it is a fucking tragedy that the current U.S. pr
Re:Slashdot Racism Is Insightful??!! (Score:5, Funny)
thanks for playing tho.
I guess the it shows conservatives are focus better on issues that the lefty crowd.
it's almost comedy! speaking of mangling english...
Re:Slashdot Racism Is Insightful??!! (Score:5, Insightful)
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no not really, when you know that over 90% of music is controlled by the RIAA, that 95% of computers come with windows defective by design pre-installed, that there are still 25% of people in the US that think BUSH is a swell guy and that over 60% of the US still thinks humanity was magically created fro
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Actually, that dust was born in the center of a star someplace that died to spread the elements it had created in its heart.
So, how's it feel to be nuclear waste?
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Hey, lots of us realized this and understood back in the 1950s, when President Eisenhower warned us about the growing power of the "military-industrial complex". And we've been pointing it out publicly ever since then, whenever there's an opportunity.
Americans don't march in a lock-step formation, however. Like the people of so many other countries, it's not really accurate to judge us all by
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The USA is only a superpower in a very few remaining ways. We have a crapload of nuclear weapons and that's getting close to being about it. Oh yeah - we make the bes
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I demand that you retract your comment! We have BOTH bits of fascism taking hold.
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Since when... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Since when... (Score:5, Informative)
Since at least April 28, 2006 [com.com].
W
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you're rather naive, aren't you?
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Yes it is. Too bad you can't prove it's illegal or a conflict of interest because it's a state secret.
And if you think that's insane, it just proves that it's sane, and therefore has to stay until the war is over.
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Interesting piece of rhetoric, but the "proves that it's sane" needs a proof. It's a classic catch 22. The problem is defining what "war" you (or the government) means, and how does one decide if "the war" is over.
The War on Terrorism is even more nebulous than the War on Drugs, the War on Poverty,
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The War on Poverty did end pretty quickly, when lots of America's poor started asking publicly where they should go to surrender.
Too bad we can't use this logic for the War on Terror.
What we need is a War on Bad Metaphors
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Indeed it is, and if you actually go read the book "Catch 22", I think you'll understand exactly what I was saying. It's a great book (one of the funniest pieces of literature of the 20th century, by far), you should read it!
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When was it ever used for anything else?
State secrets are always used to hide things from the state's own citizens. The pretense that secrets are things kept from other governments is just silly, because other governments are rarely a direct threat to any rulers (Saddam Hussein being one of the rare exceptions
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You lost me at "Bu...Bu...But Clinton!"
I'm tired of hearing this lame ass excuse for every single immoral, unethical, and unconstitutional action of the Bush administration.
Past acts of different administrations have little to do with what goes on today.
Saying unethical behavior on the part of US administrations is status quo does not suddenly make these actions ethical and unworthy of discussion.
Now SWIFT is an interesting subject (Score:5, Interesting)
If these guys are cooperating with Bush/the US Govt., then basically the largest banks in the world are cooperating with Bush, giving the US access to international banking.
No way! (Score:2, Funny)
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Check it out on google maps.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=nl&geocode=&q=s wift+terhulpen+belgium&ie=UTF8&ll=50.735084,4.4831 3&spn=0.01081,0.031929&t=k&z=16&iwloc=A&om=1 [google.com]
swift offices:
http://www.swift.com/index.cfm?item_id=3209 [swift.com]
Now it may be that their data center locations are more hidden. But I am quite sure that those are not as se
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To put it another way... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:To put it another way... (Score:5, Funny)
Surely, weapons of mass distraction, right?
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Sure, but uh psst. She don't wear any. I don't think she has a pant drawer.
What gave the CIA the rights... (Score:5, Interesting)
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Wait, then investigate after the next election.. (Score:2)
Willy
Re:Wait, then investigate after the next election. (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Wait, then investigate after the next election. (Score:5, Informative)
First, that whoever is in power next will WANT to investigate this.
Second, that there will be a "next election", don't forget that those in power do anything to stay in power. This administration has already tried to delay the elections in '04 due to concerns over security [cnn.com] and has since set itself up with some scary martial law powers [prisonplanet.com].
Anyone want to take bets on the odds of there being a major "terrorist attack" in the US within 4-6 months of the next election? And as long as it doesn't directly impact the "common person", increase in gas price, beer, cable TV or interrupt Monday night football, most of the sheeple will just let it happen.
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Re:Wait, then investigate after the next election. (Score:2)
there is a good chance the Republicans will not be in power..
That may happen sooner rather than later.
Bush's old Texas crowd is almost gone.
God bless (Score:2, Funny)
Don't worry! (Score:5, Insightful)
Funny. (Score:3, Insightful)
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/08/30/03212
Call me real cynical but the reason why a lot of the stuff is secret is because the rich and powerful don't want "the wrong people" to know how much money they are moving about and where. Same reason why these "holes" are there in the first place.
They don't want to "accidentally" catch the big fish while catching the small fry
Re:this all sounds so shady (Score:5, Informative)
There you go, less than 30 words.
Why should we? (Score:2)
Editing! (Score:2)
You may now mod me offtopic, and rightly so.
Re:this all sounds so shady (Score:5, Insightful)
"CIA takes neccessary steps to prevent the deaths of American children. Slashdot liberal weenies start to cry about the rights of terrorist criminals. CIA as usual disregards impotent nerdy chestbeating."
Even 'terrorist criminals' have rights. The value of an American child should not be greater than that of a child from any other country.
a $(MYCOUNTRY) child is worth more (Score:2)
What country doesn't value it's own children most? Such a country, if it existed, would be failing the "survival of the fittest" test.
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Perhaps we hate it because we know the meaning of "Inalienable Rights".http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inalienable_
Re:this all sounds so shady (Score:4, Insightful)
First some history, there have always been times throughout history where violence tries to rob people of their rights and their humanity. It's even not the first time someone has tried to blow up a financial building in NYC. Here's one from 1920: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_Street_bombing [wikipedia.org] Here's a different bombing not in NYC from 1927http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disa
Your right to be assured of your kids safety also doesn't trump the right of a "brownish shifty looking guy" to be secure in his person, papers and possessions or trump his right to Habeas Corpus. There are reasons that you equate the safety of your kid in whatever piss-ant town you live in, with massive invasive search that flaunt centuries old law. First you think that your kid qualifies as an important target, sorry no one outside of you family and friends thinks your kid is anything special. Second and probably the more important reason is that you are scared. When people are subconciously aware of their own moratlity they make very black and white emotional decisions. I highly recommend reading the whole linked article, it's shows the exact the Presidents insistence that "if we don't do this there will be another Sept.11th" works so well.
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Apart from the mustache, you've described Bush and Cheney quite well.clinton wasn't so different either (Score:2, Offtopic)
George H.W. Bush had his speech about the New World Order [youtube.com] and negotiated NAFTA. Clinton pushed NAFTA implementation through the congress.
I never really learned to read at teh government schools, and do much better
It's relative. (Score:3, Insightful)
Bush touts the media as having a liberal bias. In reality the media is strongly conservative, Fox news, rather than being the conservative voice, is just outright fascist, and most people still believe everything they hear on their particular brand of news. Expect very little protest as this most recent step in the massive defecation on our rights probably won't make a sub note in the evening news.
The fact that Fox News is so popular is indicative that the mainstream (non-Fox) media is, in fact, not as conservative as the majority of viewers want(ed) it to be. Since I think it's a fair assumption that most viewers want media that shares their own biases, we can say then, that the non-Fox MSM is more liberal than most viewers.
On some hypothetical "absolute scale" of liberal/conservative, it might be true that CNN or ABC is 'conservative' and Fox only more so, but in reality there is no absolute scale
Re:It's relative. (Score:5, Interesting)
Would this be a bit like (Score:5, Interesting)
But after the 2006 elections... well, the slant still exists. Guests are mostly conservative [mediamatters.org] and overwhelmingly white males [mediamatters.org].
The public has elected a Democratic House and Senate but you wouldn't realize it from the media...
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Ah, yes! The people have overwhelmingly chosen to oust the party of old, white men and replaced them with fresh faces from a party full of old, white men! How dare MSM doesn't change its presentation to account for this earth-shattering shift of 8% of the seats of the House!?
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The fact that Fox News is so popular is indicative that the mainstream (non-Fox) media is, in fact, not as conservative as the majority of viewers want(ed) it to be. Since I think it's a fair assumption that most viewers want media that shares their own biases, we can say then, that the non-Fox MSM is more liberal than most viewers.
I would imagine the overall network bias would be a selling point. But I'm also starting to think maybe its more about presentation. Flash. As FOX has been eating CNN's lunch, I've noticed CNN taking notes. CNN is trying on FOX's style. Flashy graphics. "Controversial" non-issues. Loud-mouthed talking heads. "Debates" where CNN's handler frames the issue and then starts to talk over guests if the guests actually make good points that shoot down the premise. Loud, brash flash. Is that the real sec
Mode parent up (Score:2, Insightful)
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You'd have to be Marx to be "left" of Chomsky.
C//
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Noam Chomsky is to the right of me and most people I respect. I guess you must be to the right of Attila the Hen.
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How about the facts, rather than our beliefs about them?
The only borderline-objective source for normalcy seems, to me, to be what the market actually produces in response to consumer desires. It's e
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Well if a system manages to divide itself in two or more factions opposing each other, whatever faction you choose the system can't lose. I guess there is powerful and intelligent enough people to have thought up this one long ago.
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I don't find it surprising at all, Dubya is a direct legacy of Reagan administration. I think this sort of ever growing control and privilege is a product of having a legacy. Why would we expect Dubya to have respect for the Constitution or rights of the common man, when he has been surrounded by power and privilege all of his life? He and Jeb were practically bred for the purpose of expanding power and control. All of the big decisions in h
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I don't find it surprising at all, Dubya is a direct legacy of Reagan administration. I think this sort of ever growing control and privilege is a product of having a legacy. Why would we expect Dubya to have respect for the Constitution or rights of the common man, when he has been surrounded by power and privilege all of his life? He and Jeb were practically bred for the purpose of expanding power and control. All of the big decisions in his
Re:What's the matter? (Score:5, Informative)
The problem over here was that Swift provided the CIA with access to the banking transactions and allegedly personal data from all EU citizens. They could do this because Swift also has a datacentre in the USA (because this data is very precious it has to be duplicated in geographically different areas).
At least that's how I remember it to be reported.
One of the things also mentioned was that the EU could not/would not do the same against American citizens, perhaps out of fear?
To my knowledge, the last report about it stated that the data-transaction to the American government had not stopped, since then the (small) mediastorm has passed over and nobody cares anymore.
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Re:What's the matter? (Score:5, Informative)
One of the things also mentioned was that the EU could not/would not do the same against American citizens, perhaps out of fear?
The EU can't and won't do that, as they'd be breaking the law.Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
This was recently up in Norwegian media too. I wasn't (couldn't? be) stopped, but our banks have to inform all their customers the US is snooping in all international transactions. Personally I find it rather astounding that other governments accept that a third party nation can look at all the financial transactions
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Legal stuffs wasn't at the top of everyone priority in september 2001. All you wanted to do (private companies included) is to help tracking down these bastards.
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~S
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I fail to see how not being thrilled about swapping a military dictator for a system where one gets to vote for anyone the US approves of whose future is decided by the US using criteria that the the US has unilaterally imposed can be described as not wanting freedom. When the Soviets did this sort of thing to other countries, the West described it as "oppression", and those w
Re:Revolt! (Score:5, Insightful)
Look at the outright lies used by Bush to invade Iraq when it was well known that Iraq had nothing to do with 911, had no WMD's, and was already fully contained.
Look at the many ways their constitutionally protected rights have been stripped away, while not one of their judges has had the balls to do their job and strike down the Patriot Act and similar unconstitutional.
Look at the way they've allowed fundamentalist christian groups to take control, destroying the separation of church and state.
Look at the way their government has repressed the black community, including the needless destruction of New Orleans. Bush spoke at the 2 year anniversary of Katrina in the Lower 9th Ward
Look at the way they have yet again allowed their banking system to run scams that built up to the point of being able to hurt the world economy. About every 5 years its something, this time it was their unregulated 'sub-prime' mortgages. Golly Gee! maybe we shouldn't have been giving mortgages to people without even verifying their income! duhhhh!
The american people couldn't revolt their way out of a paper bag.
Re:Revolt! (Score:5, Informative)
Well, some of them are organizing a General Strike on 9/11/07 [strike911.org]. The way things are, it takes some serious balls...
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Perhaps they are waiting for the French to come and help them again
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You know, there's something called the Smith Act [wikipedia.org] which makes it illegal to knowingly or willfully advocate, abet, advise or teach the duty, necessity, desirability or propriety of overthrowing the Government of the United States or of any State by force or violence, or for anyone to organize any association which teaches, advises or encourages such an overthrow, or for anyone to become a member of or to affiliate with any such association..
Thi
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WOW!
Now if that isn't a disenfranchised american, I don't know what is!
I'm on his side, and he's pissed at me for not complaining more loudly!
By the way, here in Canada our judges not only shoot down unconstitutional laws as they should, they actually identify ways in which the government needs to adapt to protect the constitution
Here in Canada, we could see the blatant lies of George Bush
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I agree with WheelDweller. I totally *want* data mining so that Islamic terrorists are caught.
Don't put me in the LovesGWBush camp, I don't watch Fox News - live in a urban liberal haven and walk to work. I've read Chomsky for years. BUT I'm finding it hard to respect my fellow liberals on this war with terrorism thing. Its freaking serious and real, and it means data mining, inspecting suspicious behavior, arresting people, and dropping bombs in areas of the world.
Liberals should be ok with all of t
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I doubt that. The 9/11 attacks, the bombings in Spain and London and the (very few) plots that have been broken up share a couple of interesting characteristics. They are very low budget operations. They involve people not previously under suspicion for prior terrorist activity. Both of these make it highly unlikely that surveillance of financial transactions will expose terrorist operations in the planning stages.
Odds are that the Bush administ
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That was then, this is now - I suspect that we'll have plenty of terrorists who (a) got pissed off at the U.S.A. because of how this war has been fought (note - I believe that the outcome could've been considerably different had more than 5 minutes of "the people will love us for liberating them" thought been put into reconstruction - maybe consider fixing what you bombed, right away, while the country was in shock at the massive defeat and change?), and (b
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Sometimes the same ones get announced twice. Then there's the petty crims in the wrong place that get hailed as terrorists so we can have another show trial. Then there's things like the liquid explosives hoax that still makes it a pain to go through airports. Becuase due process is not being followed we have a lot of ghouls using the deaths of a lot of people in New York as the excuse for pushing their own petty agendas. Fighting terrorism becomes picking on sc
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The innocent DO have something to fear: That at some point whichever administration gets into power will have different ideas about whether they are innocent or not.
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