MS Wants To Identify All Web Surfers 281
Moochman writes "New Scientist reports on a technology Microsoft is developing to identify users based on their browsing habits. Quote: 'The software could get its raw information from a number of sources, including a new type of 'cookie' program that records the pages visited. Alternatively, it could use your PC's own cache of web pages, or proxy servers could maintain records of sites visited. So far it can only guess gender and age with any accuracy,' but the aim is to be able to identify name, occupation and location as well. On a related note, The Inquirer reports on Microsoft's plans to widen the use of its identity-verification technology CardSpace, which is built into Windows Vista and available as an add-on to XP. It's being envisioned as an identity solution for the entire internet: says Kim Cameron, pioneer of the technology, 'We feel it has to solve all use cases.' (Aha, so the anonymous use cases, too, eh?) One might ask, with all of this user-ID information on hand, how long will it be until the Feds come knocking on Microsoft's door asking for help? They already have."
Umm (Score:2, Funny)
Uh, wouldn't location be the easiest thing to figure out? Yes. The answer is yes.
Re:Umm (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Umm (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Umm (Score:5, Interesting)
If I wanted to identify myself (Score:5, Insightful)
- Anonymous Coward, and proud of it.
Re:If I wanted to identify myself (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, I would have modded this as insightful rather than funny, but never mind. Microsoft has absolutely no legitimate reason to identify users, so we can only assume the motive to be evil. Yet another good reason (as if we needed one) to run Linux or a Mac...
[sigh...]
Your logic is flawed (Score:3, Insightful)
Your logic is flawed in multiple ways.
1) legitimate reason: MS is a SW company providing solutions to customers. Big problem online is proving you are who you say you are to a 3rd party. How does a merchant verify I am who I say I am (and that they are not taking on a fraudulent transaction which they will be held responsible for)?
How does bank or stock broker verify it is you
Re:If I wanted to identify myself (Score:5, Funny)
network statistics
IP address: 127.0.0.1
subnet mask: 255.0.0.0
hostname: linuxboxen
MAC address: BE:EF:BA:BE
gender: mostly male
location: parents' basement
surfing profile: looking for free pr0n
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Oh, come on. Everyone knows who you are. You must post more comments on Slashdot than anyone else in the world! There's so much data that identifying you will be easy.
It's clled corporate feudalism (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Umm (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft can take their ideas and shove them up their asses. What do you think we want Microsoft making these decisions and bringing up these ideas. It is none of their freaking business nor anyone else's if I choose to use the internet.
These people are getting freaking spooky. We really need to shut them down and fast. Stop frigging buying Microsoft products. Protect your security and your privacy by using Linux.
Re:Umm (Score:5, Insightful)
It's interesting that parent was modded troll, when what he posted was for the most part accurate.
If it is illegal for (spam) companies to glean such information, why would it be legal for Microsoft to gather such info for their own marketing purposes - or those of their affiliates (which broadly covers everyone using Windows Live Search)?
Spam, above is in parenthesis because I am indicating companies, who through similar actions have been considered spam companies.
Though the Linux point may make parent seem like a troll, it too is accurate - and one of the few PC based alternatives... so perhaps to make parent not considered by the over-sensitive on /. a troll, the last paragraph should have read...
Though perhaps that too seems like a troll... but the fact is, if MS has it's way, the only other alternative is to not use the Internet - which isnt going to happen... the truth is not a troll post. The only part of his post that may be inaccurate is the part about the NSA - though the government did request such code be installed in Windows, I dont know if anyone actually ever proved such an occurrence happened, and though MS claimed they would not do such a thing (which we've learned means nothing in the real world), there oddly are enough back doors in Windows to make one wonder.
Mod parent up... just my opinion. You dont have to like what someone posts to realize the validity of it.
Re:Umm (Score:4, Informative)
It's probably accurate.
From a report back in January;
For what it's worth, the SELinux extensions came from the NSA, so they've had a hand in improving security for all the major platforms. Linux is the only one where the code's visible for the paranoid though.
Re:Umm (Score:5, Insightful)
I also find it amazing that the same people that are being so hard on the allegations of what MS is doing are the same ones that for the past year have defended companies like Google for DOING THE EXACT SAME THING, except the Google twist is they have been using FireFox and GMail in addition to searches for tracking people and marketing data. (FireFox users, if you don't already know this, you are stupid.)
Again, tell me why this is a big deal when they accuse MS of doing it, but something to shrug off when Google is doing it, has admitted to doing it, has ties with Firefox to specifically gather data on ALL platforms, and even goes through people's GMail and anyone that sends something to someone using GMail?
This is not to even mention the 1000s of advertising companies that ALREADY do this for every freaking AD on the internet, even here on SlashDot, you are being monitored based on the ADs you click on.
For the GP post, the NSA and Windows Myths are crazy, part of the reason Uncle Sam was pissed at Vista is MS wouldn't make a backdoor for BitLocker, so if you think MS is cooperating with the NSA beyond the standard obligations that OSX and even Linux has complied, you are high.
Besides if the NSA wants information, having a hook inside an OS would be the LEAST effective way of getting it. They could gleam 10 of 1000s of times the data from just monitoring network traffic, which they already do and have done since the 1980s.
And thanks to ignore the Law Bush and Gonzo, the NSA has been doing this with all domestic traffic and voice communications now too without any warrants. If people want to bitch about Big Brother, they should look to Washinton DC, not Washington State.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Because what MS is claiming on planning to do means they are defining "browser history" as browser history, cache, cached form data, form data and more in order to accumulate the data they are going for. That is a far cry from what Google is doing. In addition, MS has proven they are far less trustworthy than Google and many other companies out there (see numerous lawsuits and anti-trust cases in this and other countries). Also, people opt in to allow Google to have access to their data. MS is making no suc
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Do YOU realize that MS claims they are going to be doing this, it is being developed by MS China
from Microsoft's research lab in Beijing, China
where I am sure the government there is supporting and/or assisting them, and that with MS' ability to control and monitor the OS and IE, these "theoretical algorithms" are in reality far from theoretical.
You act like this is working software already on people's computers without their permission. Geesh.
Working software - yes - in test versions from what the article says - it does indicate they've done enough work on it and studied the results sufficiently to glean a bunch of the information they are alr
Another Alternitive, If I may (Score:3, Insightful)
I run the Windows software I cannot or will not replace in a virtual VMWare sandbox with no internet connection (just a local intranet connection). That way, I don't feel the urge to update Windows (I generally use Win2k sp4) or play the old "whack-a-mole" game with viruses and trojans. It's not perfect, and I still use Wine for the occasional Windows game (I d
Re:No (Score:5, Funny)
Who thinks of these ideas? (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't know how much Microsoft is paying, but it must be alot if people are thinking that such a ridiculous idea makes sense.
Re:Who thinks of these ideas? (Score:5, Insightful)
These people exist, just not on Slashdot.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Bill Gates is going to give everyone who participates a trip to Disneyland at his own expense.
Q: Who thinks of these ideas? A: Google and MS (Score:3, Insightful)
This is precisely the sort of thing that Google is working on as well. It is all about targeted advertising, and Microsoft wants to be a provider of targeted advertising like Google. Q. Why did you think that Google offers you free
Re:Who thinks of these ideas? (Score:4, Insightful)
I know this is probably a tired response, but you can instantly make 98% of Americans think this is a good idea if you claim it (A) helps to fight the terrorists, and/or, (B) protects the innocent children from scary online predators.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Anybody who wanted to sell targeted advertising, for one.
Anybody who wanted to sell your information to others, for another.
Yes, the ability to learn more about you than you knew you were disclosing can be used for good or evil, and can be intensely profitable, and it's already been done. Gmail was invitation-based, ingeniously, because it not only gives Google a lot of data to mine, it also provides meta-information on how people are related. Who are the con
Re:Who thinks of these ideas? (Score:5, Insightful)
That is ridiculous reasoning! Thumb drives hold Gigabytes of data today. Even more tomorrow. A thumb drive with heavy duty encryption to protect the contents is the best way to take your preferences, files, data, etc. with you.
Personal data devices are more secure, private, load faster (oh boy down load my desktop over the Internet...riiight), can be written to faster, don't go down like the Internet, etc., etc. If you want you can have a backup image on a server, but the image would be encrypted and access would be owned by you.
Kids these days and their centralized computing!
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Who thinks of these ideas? (Score:4, Insightful)
There are a plethora of other methods to allow such functionality. Where I used to work, we had a nationwide network, and amazingly, all I had to do was log in to the nationwide network and voila! My home drive, preferences and all available!!! On XP and 2000 based clients!!! Wow!!! Amazing!!!! And that doesnt even cover the semi-thin network clients that did all the same as well...
So, in what way does MS now need to spy on and collect personal information about a user's viewing habits to determine who they are, where they live, and possibly tons of other even more sensitive information to enable a feature that already exists and works?
Explain that to me if you would...
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Feeding the troll, but oh well... (Score:3, Insightful)
If you don't know what Cmd-Shift-1 and Cmd-Shift-2 are for...
So, since you obviously know, what are they for? I've been looking around, but all I can find is stuff about floppy disk ejection. If you've been around long enough to do that, you should be dispensing advice, not hatred, and if you still actually eject floppies from a built-in drive on an Apple computer, please do yourself and the rest of us a favor and buy a new Mac. [apple.com] If whatever you're using works for you, great, but recognize that you're in the minority and that the people you seem to be directing your
From a long time Mac user.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Claris is the office software. Clarus is the dogcow.
Re: (Score:2)
~The Cats
Combining client side info with what server sees (Score:2)
Good reason to stick to Firefox.
Re:Combining client side info with what server see (Score:3, Insightful)
be on a non-Microsoft client. Otherwise, the
Microsoft software under the browser still has
access to all of the data anyway.
Perhaps it is already doing what the article describes.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Combining client side info with what server see (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
http://mrl.nyu.edu/~dhowe/trackmenot/ [nyu.edu]
Re:Combining client side info with what server see (Score:2, Interesting)
Google already does it... (Score:5, Interesting)
It isn't that hard, and it won't be that hard to deflect if you're privacy crazy. I'd say this is mostly un-news, because privacy geeks will work around it, and those who don't work around it will get some benefit from targetted ads, better compensated search opportunities, and who knows what else.
Re:Google already does it... (Score:4, Insightful)
Not trying to be a troll. It just struck me as this is another reason to just say no to MS.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Google Analytics has been re-designed to help you learn even more about where your visitors come from and how they interact with your site.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
And them too. Whenever you access a site that uses Analytics, Google now "knows" you've been there, how you got there, how often you go there... (and can link it to your google account through your google cookie).
Just saying...
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
That made me realize just how fucked up Google's abilities are.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Google already does it... (Score:4, Informative)
I'd say pretty much 90% of the web currently has Google javascript embedded in it. They know who you are, how often you surf the web, what pages you visit, how often you visit them etc etc etc.
The unbelieveable irony of people on Slashdot bitching about an imaginary technology that Microsoft doesn't have, whilst Google is collecting info about every person reading this article is quite incredible.
Libertarianism vs. Fascism (Score:3, Informative)
I'll take one of dada21's rants about gold any day over your repressive fascist belligerence.
Hint: put him on your foes list and score down your foes in the preferences. That's what it's there for, so you can be happy without advocating oppression to satiate your minority opinions.
Most geeks are random surfers, are we not? (Score:5, Interesting)
To me this profiling technology seems like going through someone's garbage to find out what kind of person they are. Works great, unless they live in an RV or on a boat....I'm not sure that analogy works perfectly, but I think I'm going to start putting my trash in my neighbor's bin from here on.
Note: Stumbleupon is a firefox toolbar which will take you to a random site when you click the Stumble button.
Advertising? (Score:4, Interesting)
It's suprising it hasn't been mentioned in the article. Its taking more of a privacy and anti-government stance. It looks to me like Microsoft are trying to take the lead in the advertising dollar in shifty ways also. As mentioned in the zdnet article too microsoft are already doing some of this through passport. The difference is that is opt-in whereas this is invisible to the vista user. While currently a download for XP, how long before it becomes part of the auto-updates?
What about multiple users? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Well, that's what make sit interestnig, maybe some smart person figured out how to do it?
The more I think of it the more possible it seems. Really all you needs is lots of data points. You generate those whenever you use the computer.
I bet if you looked at the use data point on your system, some real trends begin to show up.
In the case where people use the comp
Re:What about multiple users? (Score:4, Insightful)
Great for you, personally I actually bought a copy. Even though it doesn't mean I hold any copyrights to it, the laws of my country allows me to use the copy without the need of any license, contract or permission at all (regardless of if I would actually own it or not, so borrowing it would be quite OK too for example). Of course, just like with you, I have similary not given any permissions to MS.
Re: (Score:2)
You assume they ask because they have to. That is not necessarily the case.
Problem with identifying by browser habits (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Problem with identifying by browser habits (Score:5, Funny)
Hyperventilating overraction (Score:5, Insightful)
Frankly, I'm surprised we haven't seen MS-TCP/IP yet (no, wait, marketing name "MS Live Connect"). A proprietary, "safe" networking protocol on top of the Internet as we know it that requires you to log-in and authenticate against their servers to use the Internet, uses their own DNS (by default, but you can change it if you're technically competent enough), and of course makes sure you're not doing anything that could interfere with MS DRM in any way.
Now it's your job, given the content and the topic of this post, to figure out if I'm being serious or sarcastic. Honestly, I am not sure which one it is.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
(yes, there will be desktop component, why not)
Yes, there is, and it's pretty astonishing. CardSpace launches what appears to be a separate desktop session (I think it's done through some variant of Remote Desktop) where you select which card you wish to use to identify yourself, or at least confirm the use of the only relevant card (unless you choose to have that card used automatically.) Been testing this stuff. It's amusing when the CardSpace desktop jumps up and Norton AV decides you should have to authorize it to use the network; you're stuck u
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
If IPv6 becomes more popular and people route through Teredo servers owned by MS, this could actually be around 50% of what you're worried about. MS will be able to see a lot of the traffic between the IPv4 and IPv6 parts of the Internet. Scary.
-b.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
-- Louarnkoz
Google (Score:4, Insightful)
MS is dropping the ball.
Re: (Score:2)
What's hilarious about this... (Score:2, Insightful)
They also (Score:2)
CardSpace protocol reverse engineered! (Score:2)
Oh, please, this is reactionary (Score:4, Informative)
Microsoft now an advertising firm (Score:2, Troll)
Coming lawsuits? (Score:2)
This fortells mass-lawsuits of pirates, RIAA style.
all i know is (Score:5, Funny)
"resistance is futile, you will be assimilated"
Bill Gates and his fortune (Score:3, Funny)
random browsing bot (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Except that the bot would generate random values while you would still generate values that identifies you. So, you'd have to balance how many visits the bot makes. Too much and your habits will see through as the bot visits turn into noise. Too little and your habits will dominate.
I thin
How this came about (Score:2)
Executive: "How about using Windows to spy on people and keeping a huge database and not tell anybody what it's for."
Gates: "Brilliant!"
Re: (Score:2)
Executive: "Mr Gates, our plans against the Open Source community are progressing nicely! We're also making great new technology to turn the Microsoft userbase into a police state! Soon we'll be even richer than we already are!"
Gates: "Umm, yeah, you do that." [Goes back to swimming in a vault full of gold coins, Scrooge McDuck style.]
Re: (Score:2)
Why is this a bad thing? Not a troll! (Score:3, Insightful)
-----
You may be aware that the UK leads the world with a billion CCTV cameras on every street corner. Various countries are pondering the adoption of mandatory ID cards. I've just been reading a Slashdot article about Microsoft's proposal to identify users from their browsing history. People have suggested a comprehensive crime-fighting fingerprint database.
I'm opposed to these things. The problem is that I'm having trouble explaining to myself why, precisely, it's a bad thing to have Big Brother watching me. And basing my opinion on a vague premonition of dread is pissing me off.
Whenever a measure such as those above is suggested, newspaper articles will invariably mention objections from civil liberties campaigners. I like civil liberties and am inclined to instinctively agree with those who campaign for them. But comments like "If you're not doing anything wrong, why do you care?" are simultaneously smug, irritating and difficult to torpedo convincingly. Three arguments spring to mind:
1) The government shouldn't know any more about you than it absolutely needs to. I agree with that. The problem is that it seems reasonable to assume that an extreme surveillance society which logs the activity of you, your car, your browsing, your shopping, your library borrowing, your finances and everything else would have an easier time of it in identifying criminals. Does that constitute a reasonable need, and why or why not? This argument is rather abstract and arbitrary for my comfort.
2) Unscrupulous government officials could abuse the information. Hard to argue with that one, and no doubt abuses would occur, but it seems paranoid to reject the whole deal on those grounds given the cost/benefit ratio.
3) It wouldn't work properly, would be insecure, and would be a colossal waste of money. I agree, given the UK's track record in large IT projects, but that's an implementation problem rather than a philosophical objection.
Can anyone give me any other specific, compelling argument against the surveillance society which doesn't rely on an axiom that it's an inherently bad thing? Because this is annoying the hell out of me.
Re:Why is this a bad thing? Not a troll! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why is this a bad thing? Not a troll! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Why is this a bad thing? Not a troll! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
a criminal code of law is there to settle issues when something is wrong. if two grown men get in a fight and are both willing participants, is that battery? it is illegal in many jurisdictions, but they are both consenting adults, know the risks involved and well, probably just wont call the authorities on each other, no ones arrested an illegal act goes unnoticed and everything is A-OK.
now if everyone was monitored 24/7 both me
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Wow, that is a lot of cameras on every corner.
On a more serious note, you ask what the problem is, consider this. Imagine a man has just been released from prison after murdering someone. A CCTV camera takes a snap of him walking down the street in the vicinity of another killing, the night he is released from prison. Is this man going to be treated the same as anyone else who walked down the street?
I bet anythi
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Where does it end? (Score:2, Insightful)
With Microsoft's recent advertisin
My profile? (Score:2, Insightful)
Yes, I surf at work, both to take a break, and to keep abreast of developments in I.T., specifically, the Java world.
At home, I'll probably surf the BBC, Slashdot, Apple sites, and my blog.
So which "me" does Microsoft hope to profile? Combine that with the fact that I use a Mac at home, and that my surfing habits will change when I change jobs.
Still, methinks this is the quid pro quo for Microsoft's deal with the Bushies
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
You are a British male and a liberal geek whose job is a programmer, most likely in Java language, and you change your jobs often. You use a Mac and obviously have a strong dislike of Microsoft. You are a heavy coffee drinker who happens to like artsy stuff. You are a strong supporter of multiculturalism and you hate George Bush though you are not exactly anti-American. Despite having a blog, you don't pay much attention to your hobby.
How close am I?
All ITers know that any data on a computer cant (Score:2)
the reason is simple - if it is created through usage of bits and bytes, and everything is in any digital environment, it can be modified, changed, and faked.
nothing on the internet can be trusted to identify a person. nothing.
So.... (Score:2, Funny)
does this has to do with "clickprints on the web"? (Score:2)
Google is already doing this. (Score:2)
Spyware (Score:2)
Did i miss something? (Score:3, Insightful)
The thing that worries me about all this is the rather lack-lustre response you'd expect from the general slashdot community about breaches of privacy, etc. Have the aliens invaded?
im scared... they only come out at night, mostly...
Seriously though for everything that sucks about vista atm (performance, etc), knowing it had embedded spyware (or what exactly is a "special cookie program"?) would stop me moving to it.
In case anyone asks (Score:2)
I doubt Microsoft can figure out my real name, if I keep entering bogus online profiles like Rusty Shackelford and I happen to visit the same technology news sites as 15 million other people.
On the Internet nobody knows if you really are a dog.
The Ugly Truth About Online Anonymity (Score:2, Informative)
The Ugly Truth About Online Anonymity
http://cryptogon.com/?p=624 [cryptogon.com]
All of the stuff that you do with your "normal" online persona, you know, online banking, checking email, discussion groups, etc: You can't do any of that. The second you associate a user profile on a server with your behavior, you're back to square one. The Matrix has you. You would have to create what the intelligence business calls a "legend" for your new
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Anonymous Use Case (Score:3, Interesting)
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:no chance with read-only cookies (Score:5, Interesting)
And of course, there must be thousands of people in my ISP's /16 of the network, who, once a day, log onto Slashdot, hits Digg's homepage, checks stock quotes for MSFT, GOOG, AAPL, FOO, BAR, and BAZ (and only those six stocks, and always in that order), and then does some SSL with Quuxbank (and only Quuxbank), before going back to reading stories on Slashdot and Digg, predominantly in the "YRO" category.
What are these cookies of which you speak? Cookies only make tracking easier. NSA had to compromise the backbone routers to gain access to every user's clickstream. All Microsoft has to do is control the browser and embed the spyware in the OS... oh, wait.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
They own the OS. it is very possible for them to write filees that there own files system is designed to ignore.
Not that they do, but alls you know is what the OS is designed to tell you, no more.
By 'you' I mean most people, there are tools that can report the exact data that has been transferred. TO be anygood, they ahve to NOT use any MS-APIs and mount the drive themselves.