Australian Teachers Try To Shut Down Website 441
DeathElk writes "New South Wales teachers are attempting to have a website based in the United States closed down due to "defamatory" content. The site in question encourages students to rate teachers at their school, which obviously results in some colorful content. Now the story has hit the media, with some insightful quotes such as "The president of the NSW Secondary Principals Council, Jim McAlpine, said the Federal Government should block access to 'scurrilous American websites'."
Great Firewall of Oz (Score:5, Interesting)
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I have heard the Great Firewall of China can be seen from SPACE!
Re:Great Firewall of Oz (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Great Firewall of Oz (Score:5, Informative)
Those kind of nut cases are the vocal minority of Australians. Family and/or religious groups like the American Family Association but with a much smaller member base per capita (but just as loud and annoying). Most Australians don't care, in fact not giving a crap is our national past time.
The whiners will continue to whine and the govt will pretend to do something but when push comes to shove, the businesses of australia (which have a vested interest in unfiltered traffic) will push little Johnnie or heavy Kevvy (doesn't really matter who wins the elections) that much more harder than the whiners.
All that could possibly come out of this is a taxpayer funded opt in service which given our governments inability to do anything technical, would be completely useless.
I'd just like to say to the govt that if you're going to spend money stupidly, spend it on FTTN ((optic) Fibre To The Node, FIOS I believe is the Yank equivalent) and cut telstra (AU's largest phone Co.) out of it But like the firewall, that will never happen.
Re:Great Firewall of Oz (Score:5, Insightful)
Next thing you know those nut cases are in office. It happened in the states already. It could happen there.
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Re:Great Firewall of Oz (Score:4, Insightful)
We (australia) know that John Howard (Australian Prime Minister) is dangerous, but we also know that Howard is smart enough not to do something too stupid. Howard will get away with sending troops to Iraq so long as there aren't pictures of dead Aussie soldiers on the front page every second day. Howard only deployed a small force of SASr's (commando's) to Iraq to prevent a major backlash.
Alas the sad state of democracy these days, we're no longer voting for the put best candidate in, we're voting to keep the worst ones out. Which is precisely how Howard has won 4 elections.
On a more humorous side note, someone should tell Republican party if they want to help John Howard win this years election they should be voicing support for the other party. Every time Bush or Cheney give support for Howard opposition leader Kevin Rudd gets a surge in the polls.
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Just out of interest, what do you think would be the main benefit from the govt selling the rest of Telstra to fund the construction of publicly owned telecommunications infrastructure, ie another Telstra? Or are you intimating this would also be a stupid move?
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Here in the UK we've already got a "great firewall of the UK", to prevent access to child pornography sites. Of course it was easy for the politicians to get that in place: no-one was willing to argue against it.
But once the technology in in place, it's impossible for the ISPs to argue that they "cannot block internet sites", because it is already being done. So there is a steady trickle of calls for the same filter to be used to block sites that "glorify terrorism" or
Re:Great Firewall of Oz (Score:4, Interesting)
But then again, when teachers unionize, there often isn't much you can do to get rid of the underperforming educators. I bet that if you dig deep enough, you'll find union leaders are the ones getting the most upset over these libelous claims.
I wonder if truth is a defense against slander/libel/defamation in Australia. It isn't in England, which is where the Aussies borrow much of their law from.
US / UK difference is mainly burden of proof (Score:5, Informative)
Yes it is, just that the burden of proof is on the defendent, not the plaintiff. Read the article in Wikipedia [wikipedia.org].
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Not quite. IANAL, but I did ask one about this not long ago. In America, the truth is an absolute defense against slander or libel. That is, if you can prove that what you said or wrote is true, you're home free. In Britain, the truth is a defense, but not an absolute defense. If you can prove you told the truth but the plaintiff can show that he
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Truth is always a defense to slander, just that in the US, the plaintiff must prove the falsity and in addition that it was a malicious act in order to win, whereas in UK-based legal systems, the defendent must prove the truth in order not to lose.
Most of the left-wing Slashdotters would prefer the US version, I think. Perhaps even you, if your anti-American knee hadn't jerked.
Teachers Can Be Such (Score:3, Insightful)
I heard a teacher from the Uk talking about the UK version of the site, calling for the government to regulate it or shut it down.
His argument was that, he had a series of ten comments about him, eight of which were glowing - utterly positive - but because the other two were a little negative - and not abusive or defamatory, mind - the whole thing was an outrage, and Something Should Be Done(TM).
This guy wasn't just any old teacher either, he was the head of some teacher's union, speaking i
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Maybe it's the result of having a constant work environment where the principle relationship with people is one of authority and, perhaps, a lack of firm grounding in that authority, that results in such hypersensitivity to criticism. Whatever the reason, they should get a bleedin' grip.
Probably has more to do with the constant public criticism they face from idiots who don't realise how valuable a service they provide.
Heck, look no further than Slashdot. The typical article involving teachers usually h
oops (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:oops (Score:5, Insightful)
Just like the HD-DVD hex code, once you start giving these things publicity (no matter how you direct it) you'll always get people doing whatever they want with the newly found information.
If they wanted this problem to go away they should have ignored it, not plea with the government to have the website banned.
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That is why they are hoping to convince America to take the site down.
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Someone mentioned the great firewall of oz. This is probably not that hard to implement in terms of system... Australia has, what, three main lines out of the country? Pretty much everything routes out of Sydney or through QLD (believe there may be something in Perth as well?) so all they have to do is a few boxes there
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AAHAHAHAH. news. that's classic. I suggest you watch these:
http://abc.net.au/tv/chaser/war/ [abc.net.au]
Not Slashdot Next I Hope (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Not Slashdot Next I Hope (Score:5, Funny)
I'm posting from Australia and everything is fi$%*^#$^(H$
NO CARRIER
Re:Not Slashdot Next I Hope (Score:5, Funny)
> I'm posting from Australia and everything is fi$%*^#$^(H$
> NO CARRIER
Attention Australia STOP
Unable to reach you STOP
Sending carriers STOP
USA
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I'm not surprised really, (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:I'm not surprised really, (Score:5, Insightful)
Average person + anonymity = fucktard.
Average person + power = nazi monster.
Welcome to the Internet.
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Re:I'm not surprised really, (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm Australian, and as far as I'm aware we hate censorship as much as anyone else. Don't generalise.
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Funniest. Sig. Of. The. Year.
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That was one of the links I sent the guy who actually ran the board.
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That's not censorship: it's moderation. Censorship is done by governments. For TFA at hand, it is actually censorship because the Australian school board (presumeably run by the government) is blocking the site and they also want the Federal Government to take down the site (tho
Support? (Score:5, Insightful)
As a side note, it's also interesting that the first two posts in response to this story seemed to advocate the censorship instead of considering whether the "defamed" teachers might in fact be unfit. Are Aussies really that OK with censorship?
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Unfortunately, the quality of teachers has decreased markedly in the last 10-15 years in Australia. This is simply because, like every other profession that requires skill or knowledge or competence, there has been a diaspora of excellent teachers to the UK, the USoA, Europe and Asia.
Of those teachers that took
Re:Support? (Score:5, Interesting)
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Really? Where? Because that wasn't my experience 20+ years ago, and it wasn't the experience of the 20-odd school leavers I just asked (I'm sitting my uni tute group at the moment - gotta love campus-wide wireless access ;-). The ones from the state schools tell me that, although they were nominally allocated to one demonination or another acc
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Not in a public school it doesn't. The public school is an instrument of the State, engaged in State activities, paid for by the State (i.e. my taxes). It is NOT, I repeat NOT, an institution for the teaching of religion. That is the role of private religious institutions such as religious schools and churchs (mosques, temples, synagogues etc).
The "State" isn't teaching religion. The various faiths have to provide a representative.
Further, a system that allows children to sample the teachings of numerou
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For example, many Americans would be outraged to learn that scripture is being taught in Australian Public Schools.
Which ones ? Maybe things have changed in the last 15 years, but back when I was at school, "Religious Education" offered a choice of faiths *and* allowed for those wanted to opt-out and use it as free time.
I personally find this highly offensive, and it makes me long for a US style constitution that guarantees separation of church (blech) and State.
We do (in this context). The Australia
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I suppose a case could be argued that the FCC as currently run violates free speech on televised presses. But when schools try to ban non-religious books, there is usually an outcry.
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And remember kids: if it's true, it's not libel.
Insightful? (Score:3, Funny)
Who the hell modded that insightful?
How about (-1) flamebait instead?
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And it's the media man, you know, the ones who mod Jack Thompson +100,000 Insightful/Interesting/Genius when he manages to find a link between the VA shooting and Video Games before the killer's identity is released...what do you expect?
Tag story "scurrilous" (Score:2)
I think I have a solution... (Score:5, Funny)
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09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
Of course teachers would hate this! (Score:3, Insightful)
Now you know who sucks, and therefore who to avoid.
I'm sure the ones that suck are really ticked about this.
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Your english teacher hasn't done a good job from reading that sentence - however in US english it is perfectly correct (yes - spelling and grammar correction on this forum is a stupid idea - it's a lame joke to call attention to that).
Australian teachers who do that to their students usually end up in jail - however they have been known to end up as right wing ta
Not Fair (Score:2, Funny)
Man, this is a trip down memory lane ... (Score:3, Interesting)
Not surprising, but cure or chaos? (Score:5, Insightful)
It is my hope that websites like this will encourage quality teaching and improvement in teacher training/practice, but a lot of people think it's better to brush it under the carpet rather than do the hard yards to satisfy the students.
That said, there's no excuse for spreading falsehoods about teachers who don't deserve it. I really don't rate students to give fairly assess the short-comings of someone who just assigned them homework.
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I remember when I went to school, we came across one or two of those teachers I'd call unfit to participate in society. Interestingly enough, those along with those who didn't know shiot about the subject they taught (another interesting fact: it happened quite often that when either of the statements were true, the other wasn't that far off either...) were the only ones to catch serious flack from students.
Of course students don't like homework... but most of them aren't inherently stupi
Speaking as an Aussie... (Score:5, Insightful)
(From TFA) "It is clearly an absolute disgrace that people are anonymously able to make comments about teachers that are quite atrocious," she said.
So what? Why should someone's anonymous statement on some website mean anything to these teachers? Can't they just ignore it?
The quote from Jim McAlpine at the end of the article is an absolute disgrace and shows that he is completely out of touch with internet governance, or lack-thereof.
I'm sure Slashdotters will make plenty of disparaging comments towards Australians but this comes down to an irrational, emotional reaction by a small bunch of luddite fuckwits who should know better.
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Sounds about right. (Score:5, Interesting)
The NSW Teachers Federation, which is a fairly powerful union here, has been vigorously fighting any attempts to rate the teachers performance and that of their students. Report cards for students are virtually meaningless nowdays and they have fought tooth and nail to prevent the return of the old system. I can't see what justification the Dept of Education has for blocking access to these sites, but as someone who went through the NSW system, I think having a rating site is a great idea. Many of the teachers are less than competent to be teaching our children.
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The thing is, you'll generally find that the blocklists are controlled by individual schools, *not* by the department of education, so any tin-god principal can go on a rampage blocking sites
(or turn around and turn it off when someone complains that they can't do their report on 'breast cancer' (why is that always the search that people reference btw? personally, i use one filter blocking it's own FAQ page because th
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Just checked... Department of Education and Training has centrally blocked the site for all 700 odd Western Australian government schools.
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Understandable, of course, since local-to-school IT staff assume the block will 'just work' and not need constant attention.
Thomas Becket (Score:2)
Talking behind your back (Score:2, Insightful)
Free speech (Score:5, Insightful)
It happens on slashdot too - look how people abuse the moderation system to supress opinions with which they disagree..
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Re:Free speech (Score:5, Insightful)
No I'm not. As I said, people use "offtopic" and "troll" moderators to (effectively) remove posts with which they disagree. This is not what the moderation scheme is for - it's intended to reduce the incidence of trolling, abusive posts, etc. Modding down a legitamate post just because you disagree with it is really a form of censorship.
You're an idiot.
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Heh heh.. yeah.. I guess I'm asking for that
MOD PARENT DOWN (Score:5, Funny)
Scurrilous (Score:2)
-Peter
But on the flip side.... (Score:2)
No?
Then maybe... just maybe... the site isn't libellous at all.
no right of reply (Score:2)
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b/ my bad, I was told, and it's being reported, that there was no right of reply to any comment recorded.
Nothing New (Score:2)
stupid... (Score:4, Insightful)
oh wait... that costs money and takes time...
what else could we do... Ah I know... get our union to get the government to block them instead...
la la la la la la... I see no problem.... la la la la la....
Critical thinking (Score:5, Interesting)
I've been rated (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:Another reason to live int the USA? (trolling!) (Score:5, Informative)
Australia has thousands of stupid laws that the majority don't agree with, we have an effective way of dealing with these, ignore them.
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To get an idea of the kind of deliberate ignorance he's talking about, it wasn't until last year that we finally got around to legalising things like recording a show from the tv watch later. This is despite vhs machines being sold here for ~15 years!
Sure, technology has far outstripped the rate of change of the law, but her
Constitution-itis (Score:5, Insightful)
Your constitution was a remarkable document, granted, but its role as the absolute guarantor of everything under the sun is exaggerated. It didn't protect you from McCarthyism, it didn't protect you (and the rest of the world) from Gitmo, it didn't stop Lenny Bruce from being arrested repeatedly, it didn't stop Lady Chatterley's Lover from remaining unpublished in the United States for decades, and so on. In practice, all it means much of the time is that when community attitudes finally change, it's more often judges rather than politicians who give effect to the change.
Re:Constitution-itis (Score:5, Informative)
And I fervently hope (with some merit) that thanks to a free press, Gitmo will become the Manzanar of this era, reviled and used for a century as an example of what not to do. I wish the constitution could stop Gitmo in advance, but it has powerful enemies, and it is not strong enough to stop them immediately, but if things go OK, it will stop them in time, and leave them in the history books as a story of evil.
Of course, those who remember history are sometimes condemned to be the only ones in horror as they watch it repeat.
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I would argue that the cases you mention above would be far FAR more prevalent were it not for a document like the constitution or the equivalent in other free societies. These events are typically widely discussed/debated once exposed, and taken care of if they are indeed foun
"This wouldn't happen in America..." (Score:2)
The point I'm making is that a) the constitution and the court system is very far from perfect, and b) other nations have their own means of protecting the rights of their citizens, which are also not perfect but work a heck of a lot better than Americans sometimes give credit for, and has sometimes worked better than the US system does.
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Let me paraphrase what you just said:
-I live in Australia
-I just read a story about censorship / freedom of speech
-despite this, I don't _FEEL_ particularly censored
-However, I have _READ_ stories about the US
-They are worse than Australia
Well, FWIW, I live in the US and I don't FEEL particularly censored either. Guess what--stories are just that, stories. And if your only source of info is a site like slashdot, well, let's just say you might be getting some highly selected and biased info..
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I don't have anything against Australia...it's one of my top non-US places I would consider moving to.
I just get tired of everyone assuming / claiming that america is a hellhole of censorship/whatever else..
Re:Sad State, (Score:5, Interesting)
Some of the general reasons that lead to this include, but are not limited to:
* The advancing average age of secondary teachers
* The general lack of tech savvy amoungst teachers and supporting staff
* The ultra-low wages, high-volume classrooms.
* The mentality from the general public that the teachers are given an 'easy go' and should be teaching their kids how to read/write (nevermind that this should have been done BEFORE the student reaches primary school, let alone secondary school, IMHO)
Case in point. One time, I was in a secondary college, and a group of teachers were discussing general causes of problem students. I casually remarked "You have to admit, sometimes it's not the student that is the direct cause". I didn't get a chance to elaborate, all three teachers immediately assumed I'd accused THEM of being incompetent (when i was going to discuss an event from high school where a teacher had shown up drunk for work)
Teachers tend to be very protective of their egos, so the incident in this slashdot story doesn't surprise me in the slightest (and, I'll also suggest it's being overblown here, it's no-where near what some US schools have done, such as suspending/expelling students, etc, over similar incidents)
RE: Should have known. (Score:3, Insightful)
I thought public schools these days were all about free expression of idea's, thoughts, etc.
anyone sitting in the .nsw.edu.au domain already is already subjected to filtering. Just ask your little brother what site he's directed to when he attempts to visit youtube from school. I guess they want to expand the schoolyard to every home and business across the country.
my fear is that with the current state of play* the China thing could very well happen.
*one-party state posing as a two-party state with talkback radio providing the entire political agenda. Australia has a very small media market with
Re:Poor buggers (Score:5, Insightful)
Being a teacher entails acting as a mentor, an arbitrator, a cop, a counsellor, a confidante, a social worker, and many other professions. And then they have to put up with bozos who complain that they are overpaid.
I'm not actually a fan of the public school system; I think it's designed primarily to create sheep who will be docile and obedient workers for industry (for further discussion of that, see the works of John Taylor Gatto and John Holt). My wife and I homeschooled our own children, because we could see that public school wasn't serving their needs or helping them achieve their potential. But to assert that teachers have it easy and don't deserve what they make is utterly ridiculous. It is a demanding, high-stress, low-respect job, and anyone who does it (and doesn't just go through the motions) deserves more respect and salary than they probably get.
As for making $10,000 more than you, without knowing what that is or what you do to earn it, that's a meaningless comparison.
-Mike
Right of reply and anonymous status (Score:4, Insightful)
How to impose that without violating the right to privacy is another matter, but it's not right that you go and call someone names without being responsible for your words - what's to stop someone maliciously claiming one of those teachers does strange things with furry animals (I'm keeping this light, I'm sure you can come up with worse)?
So, I think the site idea is good, even though teachers may not like it, but it needs moderation, right of reply and accountability without voiding the anonymous nature (as that would otherwise stop the debate for want of damage to grades and/or expulsion).
Bottomline, however, is that there appears to be quite a disconnect between teachers/management and the students. It would be wise for the teachers to start thinking about that and maybe find a solution for debate closer to home. This is what leadership (and teaching) is supposed to be about..