SQL-Ledger Relicensed, Community Gagged

Ashley Gittins writes "Users of the popular accounting package SQL-Ledger were being kept in the dark about a recent license change. Two weeks ago a new version of the software was released but along with it came the silent change of license from GPLv2 to the 'SQL-Ledger Open Source License' — presumably in an effort to prevent future forks like LedgerSMB. As it turns out, the author was making deliberate attempts to prevent the community from finding out about the license change. No posts to the SQL-Ledger mailing lists asking about the license change were getting past moderation and direct questions to the author were going unanswered. Just recently the license was switched back to GPLv2. This behavior is not a first for this particular project, and is part of the reason for the original LedgerSMB fork. Does a project maintainer have an ethical obligation to notify his or her community of a license change? What about a legal obligation?"

Oh no!

[rolfwind]

Nothing for you to see here. Please move along.

The developer is in charge of /. too!

Legal obligation? Probably not... Ethical?

[erroneus]

Of course! Being open is exactly what open source is about. Well, hopefully the LedgerSMB fork will be able to get beyond the personality defects of the SQL-Ledger guy...

Re:Legal obligation? Probably not... Ethical?

[no reason to be here]

couldn't there be a problem considering the license was GPL not some BSD or apache style license. once the base is GPL, shouldn't that mean the derivatives can't be more closed than the base? (anyway IANAL).

No. There's only a problem if someone made a fork and tried to change it from GPL to something else. This was a move by the guy who holds the copyrights to the code. the copyright holder can, at anytime, decide he wants to move his code to another license. the catch is that all previously released code is still under the previous license. That is, if i release Foobar v1 under the GPL, then I release Foobar v1.1 under BSD, v1.0 remains licensed under the GPL, and you are free to take that code and start your own version, Forkbar v1.0. However, you must always keep it as GPL, because you don't own the copyright on the code; you only have access to it because of the GPL.

Re:

[rbanffy]

In this specific case, you can still pick the 1.1 release and GPL it back into, say, 1.1g.

If, on the other hand, 1.1 is under MS Shared Source License you should fork 1.0.

Re:

[gmack]

That only applies if he hasn't accepted any outside submissions and therefore is the copyright holder of the code or has had all copyrights assigned to him.

Re:Legal obligation? Probably not... Ethical?

[KutuluWare]

Having actually read TFA, it looks like the author was, in fact, trying to do exactly those two things he does not have the right to do with the existing code base:

* Retroactively re-license existing versions from the GPL to the new version:

The version published on the website at http://www.sql-ledger.com/source/license/COPYING [sql-ledger.com] takes precedence over any other version in circulation.

* Unlaterally re-license code that includes third part submissions, since most of the translation packages were done by user submission.

Ignoring those two actions, even if the license change is strictly legal, it's downright underhanded to pull a stunt like he did. He didn't just change the license on his software; he put out a point release on the primary distribution site, after having changed the license terms included with the package, then refused to let anyone bring it up on the official support mailing list. How many of us would notice if we downloaded and installed the lastest apache or postfix or whatever, and the license had silently and magically changed to a closed one?

Re:

[Alcoholic Synonymous]

It gets a little more sticky too when you try to relicense code like this. Outside contributors who submitted patches may have objections to the GPL code they donated being changed without their permission.

Re:Legal obligation? Probably not... Ethical?

[fourchannel]

I bet they would, since should they give their code to the project leader under GPL, and then the project leader takes their code under GPL, and changes the license to X, he's in direct violation of the GPL. It would be ok if the entire project's code base were written solely by the project leader. In the likely event that it wasn't, the project leader doesn't own the copyright to the submitted code, and for him to use it in anything other than the GPL license given to him would be committing copyright infringement, which is illegal.

Re:

[sumdumass]

Well, that is assuming that outside code was used and that the copyright owners of that code didn't agree to the change.

Update and reply

[einhverfr]

I am a core member of the LedgerSMB development team. The author of this post ran it by me as a courtesy before submitting it.

In the time since this was submitted, Mr Simader has seen the light and reverted to the GPL, albeit very unhappily. Such is life.

I don't actually begrudge Mr Simader the right to choose whatever copyright license he wants to have for his work. That is his moral right, and I have no problem with it. However, I was very unhappy with the fact that a lot of contributors' code, including all the translations, were still licensed under the GPL and since his new license was not compatable with it, I felt that he was causing problems for everyone including our project which is why I began contacting contributors privately about the whole thing.

Also, in the event of a license change away from a specific and well-understood OSI-approved license, I think that the developer also needs to give users a heads-up before they install the new version. This is, however, as far as I see the ethical obligations. And even these were not followed.

Finally, on the LedgerSMB project we are committed to rewriting the entire application, not just in order to prevent further conflict with Mr Simader but also in order to create a better program and one which can be more easily maintained. But we would be remiss if we didn't recognize that our success is in fact partly based on his.

Use LedgerSMB, not SQL-Ledger.

[Futurepower(R)]

einhverfr wrote the parent message. You could have read about the license change in his Slashdot journal post a week ago: LedgerSMB 1.2 released, SQL-Ledger changes licenses [slashdot.org].

If you are interested in this subject, I suggest you make einhverfr your friend on Slashdot. Then you will receive notice of all his journal entries.

einhverfr makes a very good case that you should use LedgerSMB [ledgersmb.org], not SQL-Ledger.

--
Remarkable Occurrences Involving the Bush Family [futurepower.org]

Re:

[sumdumass]

Surprisingly, if he would have mandated the copyrights be assigned to his project(him) before they be accepted into the code base, he wouldn't be tied to using the GPL and could stop anyone else from using the source.

This is a risk all contributers take when they give their copyright away to project leaders. The FSF could at any time take all their code and make it proprietary and there isn't a thing anyone else could do except whine. There is a good expectation that doing something like this would never ha

Re:Legal obligation? Probably not... Ethical?

[pipatron]

once the base is GPL, shouldn't that mean the derivatives can't be more closed than the base?

The author of the work can always release his work under any license he sees fit. The problem would be any code contributed by others in this case.

Re:

[shaitand]

True, that's why most projects require you to assign copyright for your contributions to them.

Re:

[Registered Coward v2]

True, that's why most projects require you to assign copyright for your contributions to them.

Which could be problematic - since the copyright holder could decide to release the code under a non-GPL license as well; make revisions to that and be under no license obligation to make them available under the GPL. Granted, most projects wouldn't do that but it's still a possibility.

Also, assigning the copyright limits the creator's ability to resell their code seperately should someone want to use it in a non-

Re:

[T-Ranger]

To your first point: yes, that is the whole point. Commercial companies in particular require this for their dual OSS/commercial products. Novell Hula, MySQL come to mind quickly..

Second point: Copyright assignment, not transfer.. Though, of course, you did create competition for yourself.

If your goal is to fix a bug in project X, then you may need to do this to have your 1000 line patch accepted. If you want to share that fix/enhancement, getting the upstream to accept and maintain it is likely your be

Re:

[einhverfr]

LedgerSMB does not require copyright assignment precisely because we don't want to send the message that we will change the license unilaterally. Copyright ownership is power, and decentralizing power means stability.

Of course in this case stability means that it would be hard to change the license, which is partially the whole point.

As a project, though, we are apolitical, and committing to a single license can be a political thing. It is possible down the road that parts of the project could be under LG

In this case, the translations were all

[einhverfr]

contributed to the author under the GPL.

switched back

[stoolpigeon]

if you read the links, you will see that the author has already switched back to gpl v2

Re:

[LighterShadeOfBlack]

You'll see the same if you read the summary.

It's too late now though. The damage has been done and the apparent intent to keep people in the dark about major changes which could have a negative impact on their use of the software will no doubt see a lot of users lose faith and switch to an alternative.

Re:

[stoolpigeon]

good - i emailed the editor when i saw the story was going to hit the front page. nice to see it wasn't for nothing. when i read the summary after it went live, i missed that they had made the change, so i appreciate your pointing it out.

Relicensing...

[mlwmohawk]

If the author is the sole author and/or owns all the copyrights, then they can do what ever they like. If, however, they have accepted third party submitions then they may have a legal obligation to remain GPLv2

GPL2-GPL3 and Contributor or Package Content

[billstewart]

As you say, if it's the author's own work, that's fine, but if there's contributor content, they may have extra constraints, and that also applies to using packages with GPL or other licenses as a platform or component of your code. That was certainly one of the goals of the GNU Public Virus approach - if you're using Free Software, you can't make the Free parts non-Free, and if you're doing things the way RMS would really like, all of your contributions would also be Free. If you want to be able to late

Copyright law is pretty clear here

[brunes69]

No a project CAN NOT switch from GPLv2 to GPLv3 unless EVERYONE who contributed code agrees.

However - the reality is if a majority agree and a minority do not then what happens is that minorities code is removed from the project and re-implemented by those who do.

Now of course this only works if the minority is very small. If the minority is large enough to make it unfeasible then such a license change does not take place. Which is the way things SHOULD be.

I have been a contributor to projects that subseque

Re:

[sumdumass]

Well technically, if each contributer done so with the "or later version" included, then they have already agreed.

But something that might get confusing is the part of the GPL that says you have to accept and use the GPL license presented when making modifications or derivate programs. section 4 contains

You may not copy, modify, sublicense, or distribute the Program
except as expressly provided under this License. Any attempt
otherwise to copy, modify, sublicense or distribute the Program is
void, and will au

Re:

[pla]

If the author is the sole author and/or owns all the copyrights, then they can do what ever they like.

They can do whatever they like in the future. And anyone can take the entire GPL'd code base from the day before the license change and tell the "owner" to go fork himself.

That in itself counts as one of the best reasons to use GPL'd software - Eternal compatibility, as long as someone, anyone, continues work on the older codebase (which may mean nothing more than compiling it as-it-stands once every

Re:

[mlwmohawk]

The "in the future" issue is not about the GPL, it is an issue with law, i.e. you can't change the rules in the middle of the game. So, yes, you are right, you can use GPL code as long as you want, no matter what the new license is.

Re:

[ultranova]

The "in the future" issue is not about the GPL, it is an issue with law, i.e. you can't change the rules in the middle of the game.

Unless you write an EULA, in which case you can change the terms of sale after the sale (or licensing or whatever you actually get from a software store).

Re:

[Comatose51]

Still, even if he is the sole author of it, he has a moral obligation to inform the stake holders, which includes the users, of the license change. Let the users then make an informed decision about what to do.

Re:

[mlwmohawk]

That's an interesting take, "stake holders," I can understand that position, but let me ask you this:

You write a open source application. You poor a lot of time and effort into it. You do it for what ever reason, on-line resume, share what you have, what ever. People take your work and spin off their own project because they disagree with what you want to do. They may assume they have a "stake," but by introducing something do you give them the rights?

More to the point, I have an open source project that I

Re:

[MindStalker]

Not necesarily. If users submitted code those users retain copyright unless they stated that they gave them up. Relicensing under these conditions is illegal. And complaining that your copyrighted code has been stolen is not just crying... Of course unless your one of those people who claim you have every right to copy others copyrighted works -wink, wink-

Re:

[Brandybuck]

It actually depends on the nature of the submission. Trivial submissions, such as one-line bug fixes don't need explicit copyright assignment. Large submissions like new classes, do. The boundary line is not clear but my sense is that less than ten lines of ordinary code without an explicit copyright do not taint the original.

Of course, many vehemently disagree. Some viciously maintain that a patch that changes "n++" to "++n" is sufficient to to kick in the GPL viral clauses.

Re:

[tomhudson]

"Some viciously maintain that a patch that changes "n++" to "++n" is sufficient to to kick in the GPL viral clauses."

At the risk of being a bit off-topic, if n++ is a statement by itself, the compiler will emit the same code as ++n (at leastusing gnu c++), so the change isn't even "trivial" - its non-existent (same as adding some white space)

For example, diff says that:

for ( i=1 ; i ... results in the same binary code as ...

for ( i=1 ; i ... so everyone who believes that ++i is "faster" than i++ are ba

Re:

[MindStalker]

You realize that n++ and ++n do different things right?

Re:

[tomhudson]

Poster wrote:
You realize that n++ and ++n do different things right?

Not necessarily. If there is no additional code between the sequence points, the two do the exact same thing, and the compiler will emit the exact same code (we had this discussion in another thread where someone was trying to claim that ++n is quicker than n++).

To prove this, I used g++ to compile the following 2 pieces of code

int main (int argc, char* argv[], char* env[]) {

Re:

[bytesmythe]

The main reason I've heard for advocating the use of ++n instead of n++ is related to C++ objects. If you use n++ and n is an object instead of a built-in type, the object has to be cloned so you can get a reference to its original state. In this case, ++n is faster, since the object does not have to be cloned first.

The reason for *always* using ++n was simply to be in the habit of typing it that way so you didn't accidentally incur the extra cost of the copy constructor.

Re:

[tomhudson]

The point is that you can't copyright something as trivial as ++n (instead of n++), especially when it has ZERO impact on the final binary. Copyright does not extend to trifles - "non minimus lex."

Re:

[jonbryce]

A one line bug fix would only not need explicit copyright assignment if it failed to meet the criteria for a "creative" work. That is pretty unlikely.

Taking one line out of a much larger program would qualify in most cases as fair use, but where the work itself is only one line long, then it wouldn't qualify, because it is too large a proportion of the total work.

Reading comprehension

[Hrothgar The Great]

The community being gagged refers to the fact that their messages were dropped from the associated mailing list. You probably didn't read the article, huh?

Re:

[cyberon22]

I really don't see a problem here. Presumably the project maintainer is running the mailing list and (reasonably) moderates it. It sounds like he doesn't want people creating problems for him on his own mailing list. Fair enough. The code is open and if people feel censored they can easily start their own mailing list.

If there are enough active contributors besides this guy who are willing to work on the project and for whom this license is a sticking point, a fork will succeed. If not it will fail. But att

Re:

[einhverfr]

My problems were:

1) Contributor code (including all the translations) were still explicitly licensed under the GPL. In other words, the relicensing was probably not legal, and I thought it was best to act sooner rather than let him dig a whole that might engulf LedgerSMB as well.

2) Users should be notified promptly if the license is so changed. I would not have had any problem with this had he loudly said so. But this was done on the sly so to speak.

My points have had their impacts, and SQL-Ledger 2.8.1

Re:

[itwerx]

Presumably the project maintainer is running the mailing list and (reasonably) moderates it.

No, unfortunately he does not moderate reasonably. We have observed several times where a new user would post about a problem they were having, we would post the fact that it was a bug in SL and how to work around it and our post would simply never appear while others who were having the same problem would continue discussing the issue in confusion.
In fact, if you look at the archies for the SL

Legal: No, Ethical: Maybe...

[Kjella]

Legally you don't have to announce your business decisions in advance, ethically well... I can understand why you wouldn't, the day you came out and said it the GPL version is as good as yours - no reason to switch. You'd want to have some sort of carrot "New version with $foo and $bar" so people would actually change. Everyone producing anything OSS is entitled to stand up at any moment and say "Screw this, I'm going to try making money off it", assuming it's all their code of course. If you want reliability and future commitment, perhaps you should pay for it? As long as you rely on volunteer contributions you haven't really got a leg to stand on, should they disappear in a puff of smoke.

Re:

[Kjella]

Sorry to respond to my own post but that should read "Screw this, I'm going close the source and try making money off it", clearly you can make money of an OSS product too.

Re:Legal: No, Ethical: Maybe...

[ScrewMaster]

If you want reliability and future commitment, perhaps you should pay for it?

That doesn't always work either. Just read the EULA for, well, pretty much any piece of commercial software. If the vendor disappears, decides not to support the product, if it vaporizes your computer and most of the building its in ... tough. Paying for it doesn't mean anything in and of itself. Consequently, you have no assurance of anything in the software world unless you're dealing with a vendor that has a significant track record of playing square with its customers. Still no guarantee, but that's about as good as it gets, and it is true whether it's open source or not, commercial or not.

escrowe vital - was Re:Legal: No, Ethical: Maybe

[speculatrix]

if you have any sense when buying software, and you're big enough to make the vendor agree, then a code escrowe agreement is critical in case the vendor folds (sometimes even have a release condition predicated on the vendor being bought by another company who may abandon the product).

if you're subcontracting the software to another company, then make sure that you have full rights over the code and that you get regular SCCS/RCS/CVS/Subversion snapshots (you need to have direct access to the contractor's

Disagree but in a different way

[einhverfr]

If you want reliability and commitment you *should* pay for it. If you buy a subscription ot RHEL update services, that is one way. You could also pay members of the core teams for support accounts, and the like.

But it doesn't mean you need to pay for the software license.

Re:

[petermgreen]

If you want reliability and future commitment, perhaps you should pay for it?
perhaps but it is important realise that by buying propietry software licenses you are not buying that. If a competitor decides they want to squash your suppliers product by buying them out and all you have are licenses there isn't anything much you can do.

you may be able to get a contract that gaurantees reliability and future commitment but that contract would have to be very carefully worded and it still doesn't really help you

Looks like the project is officially being killed.

[Ant P.]

Both the links to their "public support forum" and wiki bring up a HTTP password prompt.

Re:

[einhverfr]

Agree on the first part (about not being an asshole). On the second part I wonder if it really was working well, and if the license change was related to other problems.

However, I think the paid support model works well provided that you define support to include further development. This is one thing Mr Simader does right.

Definitely unethical

[$RANDOMLUSER]

Forcing people to accept a change in the license without telling them? Definitely unethical - kind of like forcing people to accept Windows Genunie Advantage if you want patches.

Re:

[drgonzo59]

There is no ethical problem here. (At least the way I see it and my ethics does not necessary = other's ethics). As the author of the project he can change the license as he pleases. What others see as deliberate attempt at not disclosing the change can just be laziness. If the license is included with the distribution and clearly readable it is the responsability of the user to check it.

BUT if the software was GPL before then that old version is still GPL (imagine it has been forked or integrated in other

Re:

[turbidostato]

" What others see as deliberate attempt at not disclosing the change can just be laziness"

Yes, it *can* be laziness. But in this case, as long as the summary states it, it can't be laziness since the project leader took the effort of not aproving for being published any comment relating to such decision.

"if someone downloaded it within that hour can they treat it as GPL even though now it has a different license but it is the same software?"

Of course. It took *his own copy* under the GPL. He can do with

Re:

[jonbryce]

In the first instance, yes, you have a licence to use the code under the GPL, so you can continue using it.

In the second instance, no, because you do not have any sort of valid licence from the copyright holder.

Re:

[Brandybuck]

No one's being forced to accept any changes. If you don't like the new license, don't use the new software. Stick with the old GPLv2 version. It's simple really.

Re:

[Kalriath]

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about. In this case, you can use your existing version of the app without the new license. In your other example you can just turn on Automatic Updates and you get all the patches! No WGA needed!

Re:

[mqx]

"Forcing people to accept a change in the license without telling them? "

Umm, who forces anyone to accept anything: if you find that a new release has a license you don't like, then you don't have to accept it: use older versions or choose an alternative.

Simader

[hpavc]

Simader is a putz and always has been. That project is the worst of programming with Perl ever -- its a contraption. Its developed like any 'job security' program would be, using a rube goldberg approach when ever possible. Any attempt to integrate with that project with anything has always met with his poison. Much rather put my efforts into something like http://frontaccounting.com/ [frontaccounting.com] rather than SQLL. Even though I am a perl zealot.

Finally the death of his project.

Re:

[daeg]

I came here to say the exact same thing. We have another OSS project that "integrates" with SQL-Ledger (I use that term very loosely) and I am replacing both with, uh, real programming. I am convinced that SQL-Ledger and other hobbled-together "open source" projects are merely fronts for greedy developers that hook businesses with the prospect of free, open source packages that can replace commercial packages that can run into the thousands for even the smallest of businesses. Then, when the company wants t

Where to you think the LedgerSMB form came from?

[cheros]

The guys at LedgerSMB had exactly the same problem, and they're busy cleaning up the code. Their stance is different as they provide a service, not software, and they make more sense re Open Source approach to code.

I think the root problem is that the SQL Ledger guy didn't realise what Open Source meant when he 'opened' it. LedgerSMB seems more focused on simply being a reasonable product, and their focus is the SME market who coul dnever afford the gazillion dollar programs..

And now that we have cleaned up the code

[einhverfr]

We are starting to address the architecture. Hopefully in a year, we will be architecturally opposite where we began.

Our new architecture rocks and makes for *easy* integration.

Re:

[einhverfr]

First, I would not run *any* accounting db on MySQL 4.x... Google "MySQL Gotchas" for good reasons why. So Frontaccounting is pretty much out.... (I am not sure I would trust MySQL 5.x either but that is another matter).

Second, Simader's Perl is pretty much as you describe (\%$form?), and his db design isn't any better. We have spent six months doing what mostly amounts to security patches and now we are ready to re-engineer in place. By 2.0, LedgerSMB will have no code left from SQL-Ledger.

Re:

[einhverfr]

1.13: What goes in isn't (always) what comes out. In particular note how numbers are truncated to fit the field in ways which could really screw with your books.

Granted these can be coded around, but would you not rather have a db that throws errors rather than trying to insert *something* when the value won't fit?

Re:

[einhverfr]

I have been saying this for years, but there is a small vocal zealous contingent that will jump on any negative comment. SQL-Ledger is the worst form of baby perl. It's not just bad, but touted as good (maybe Simader is waiting for a M$ buyout).

Around the time of the fork, Mr. Simader accused me of destroying his business and that is why MS didn't just buy him to put him out of business. So maybe there is some truth to your post...


Simider has been writing (!programming) perl a while now. One might think he

Licenses

[debrain]

Does a project maintainer have an ethical obligation to notify his or her community of a license change? What about a legal obligation?

Ethical obligation: certainly, I would argue.

Legally, it's in the ballpark of something like this:

You cannot change the license on contributions to your project without permission of every contributor.

The enforceability of a license often depends in no small part on the notice of the change. For example, a quiet change of the license obligating you to make retroactive paymen

Re:

[cheros]

and intentionally didn't tell his contributors who kept making valuable contributions

To be fair to the guy, he wasn't very keen to take in contributions so that doesn't seem to be a huge problem. I think he could have just been a bit clearer about his intentions, and that includes the realisation that Open Sourcing may not have been quite what he intended to do.

Oh, and acting when angry isn't a good thing either, but we've all been there, I think :-).

The prime problem I can see is that he did something su

Re:

[Secret Rabbit]

But, arguably if the project is run with a dictator type model, then the dictator doesn't need to ask. They _can_ just make changes.

The obvious answer to the question is ....

[3seas]

absolutely! Yes!

The evidence of this is shown in the development of GPLv3

It's old school to bait and switch.
It up and coming to be Honest and open.

Perhaps honesty and openness was what was needed regarding the concerns that resulted in the flip flop?
Would the flip flop had happened?

Not a Unique Phenomenon

[ThinkComp]

I have been writing accounting software of my own lately (http://www.thinkcomputer.com) that also does taxes, and licensing has come up in the past week for me, as well. I used the PDFlib 6 library with PHP, which I paid over $1,400 for, to create PDF files so that my software could prepare tax returns, and all was working fine until my server crashed in March. I was forced to upgrade to new hardware, which I did, in the form of two Sun Fire X2200 servers running Linux. Installing PDFlib on my new setup didn't work, because even though my server had two processors, and I had a license for two processors, PDFlib detected four logical processors (each AMD CPU is dual-core). This was irritating on its own, but the fact that the newer version of PDFlib, version 7, uses a *different* system-based license (and of course they didn't tell anyone) that makes the number of logical processors irrelevant, means that the PDFlib acknowledge the flawed nature of their original license. When I asked them for assistance, since I needed to get my software up and running again, their response was that I should pay them $2,700 more in license fees for version 6 (more than the cost of the server) or $1,194 for a single-system upgrade to the new licensing scheme of version 7 (more than the cost of the original single-CPU license for version 6). To me, it sounded like extortion, but since the company is in Germany they can get away with it easier I suppose.

Needless to say, I'm never using PDFlib again, and I'm re-writing all of my code to use FPDF (http://www.fpdf.org), which is free, and works just as well. It's even easier to write code for. Stay away from PDFlib!

Re:Not a Unique Phenomenon

[dinther]

So the lesson is:

Never, ever, ever buy third party libraries without source. Without source you no longer own the solution you create. I have seen it happen many times before and these days I put a lot of pressure of the library vendor with the hard rule, "No source no Sale". Many of these third party library providers have gone out of business or shifted focus to other products. Without source I would be in trouble.

Never, ever, ever buy any software at all that licenses against a specific set of hardware.

Lately I more often contemplating switching OS to get away from the worst black box of all... "Windows" With Vista and the brain dead security rules introduced it becomes impossible to write software.

Embrace VMWare player

[steve_l]

You can still host the old software on your new box, just by running it under VMWAre or Xen and configuring the VM to have less CPUs than your real box. You may need a bit more RAM, but RAM costs less than PDFLIb upgrades.

Here is the only license

[iminplaya]

that ever made sense to me.

"The party of the first part shall be known in this contract as the party of the first part." [searchlores.org]

TLUG

[hey]

This was the topic at the recent Toronto Linux User Group meeting.
http://tlug.ss.org/wiki/Meetings:2007-04 [ss.org]
The talk was by a Ledger SMB core developer.
I bought what he said... Ledger SMB is now on Source Forge, reacts to security issues,
accepts patches, is converting to a saner architecture, uses CURRENCY instead of FLOAT for money.
Seems like its a winner.

Re:

[einhverfr]

nsdap.com, net and org are all owned and reserved. Seems like a grand conspiracy coming our way.

Of course, it could just be the Network Security and Data Access Program....

Other Accounts Packages

[Colin Smith]

There are actually rather a lot of free and open source accounting packages around.

        * Front Accounting
        * Ledger SMB
        * WebERP
        * OpenAccounting
        * TurboCash
                    o Windows
        * GnuCash
        * Personal
                    o HomeBank
                    o jGnash
                    o GFP
                    o Grisbi
        * CK-Ledger
        * Compiere
        * Lazy8
        * Quasar
                    o Linux Canada
        * phpCOIN
        * opentaps
        * Bambooinvoice
        * GnuAccounting
        * phpOrganisation
        * OpenBravo

They are in various states of repair and different markets from the personal to the one man band to the multinational.
 

Re:

[massysett]

Under the Personal list, add Ledger:

http://newartisans.com/ledger.html [newartisans.com]

It's my favorite--a great CLI tool. I learned of it in a Slashdot comment, so just continuing the tradition :) All source available under a BSD license.

Re:

[Bronster]

http://kmymoney2.sourceforge.net/ [sourceforge.net]

Compiere - don't like the DB needs

[cheros]

If Compiere would run on something like PostgreSQL I'd be very interested in it. The Oracle requirement took it straight out of my list.

Any of the above capable of handling weekly timesheets, with authorisation?

Re:

[Colin Smith]

I haven't tried them all. phpOrganisation handles time recording in addition to the basic accounting. It's the one I'm looking at closest for my own needs. Though WebERP and one of it's forks (frontaccounting) are also fairly useful.
 

SQL-Ledger = Cavalier Security

[The Breeze]

I never even tried SQL ledger, simply because while researching different Linux accounting packages I came across some post by one of the head guys, possibly this "Dieter" doorknob, replying to a user with something very much like the following:

"Well, I wouldn't worry about it. We are not that concerned with security because there's nothing that SQL Ledger works with that would be of interest to anyone except an accountant, and I don't think we need to worry about a bunch of rogue accountants."

That statement alone made me not want to touch the packae, even though it looked very nice otherwise.

AGG 2.4 BSD - AGG 2.5 GPL

[Edward Kmett]

In a similar vein:

I'm still trying to figure out why the Anti-Grain Geometry library went from BSD-like to GPL a few months ago with no code change. http://www.antigrain.com/ [antigrain.com]

I haven't found any information on why the switch occurred and the author doesn't appear to have explained his motivations. I find myself working on a project in which I can employ 2.4, but I can't upgrade to 2.5 due to the licensing restriction, so I must either fork and maintain what I am using from 2.4 or abandon the library.

The bait

maybe no obligation

[nanosquid]

If there are no third party contributions to the software, then the author can change the license in whatever way he wants to (of course, not retroactively--old GPL'ed copies remain GPL).

If there are third party contributions, it depends on whether the contributors assigned the copyright to him. If they did not, he can't change the license. If they did, it depends on what the copyright assignment forms imposed on him.

In many cases, I wouldn't consider a GPL->proprietary license change a big deal for a

Re:

[Alchemar]

All your arguments hold if the question is can the maintainer change the license. The question posed in the summary is does the maintainer have an obligation to inform people of the license. The license is a contract between two enities. If one of those enities takes delibirate steps to withhold the terms of the contract until after the contract is in effect, the contract is null and void. This is the exact problem that most people have with shrink wrap licenses on commericially purchased software, and

Re:

[nanosquid]

If you obtained foo.c under the GPL, then the terms of the GPL apply to you: that is the "contract" between you and the author. Those terms can be modified only if all parties to the contract agree. It doesn't matter what terms the owner of foo.c distributes the file under to other people, either at the same time or at a later time.

Even if the owner of foo.c wanted to change the terms of your license retroactively, he couldn't; any such attempt wouldn't be "fraud", it would be futile. The only way this w

Clueless

[Frodrick]

From the article, it really doesn't sound like the developer really understands what Open Source or the GPL is all about. Let him go and good riddance - I understand there's a pretty good fork out there anyway. :+>

Re:Can we please lay off the emotional language

[cheros]

No, that wasn't emotional, that was a fact. Gagging in this case refers to posts querying the change or motive (or even mentioning the very fact) of the change were moderated out so the userbase was kept unaware.

I think the bottomline appears to be that the guy Open Sourced something and didn't quite understood the consequences. And it's easy to stack mistake on mistake once you're on the wrong foot..

Having followed both mailing lists I must say that the LedgerSMB one is very lively indeed - and has more people visible in development. That doesn't mean I don't feel sorry for the original author, but I think he may need a bit of a spokesperson between him and the rest of the world..

Re:Can we please lay off the emotional language

[tomhudson]

"That doesn't mean I don't feel sorry for the original author, but I think he may need a bit of a spokesperson between him and the rest of the world.."

... like Theo de Raadt? ... or maybe Hans Reiser? ... or (to keep it even) Monkeyboy chair(throwing)man "the Balminator" "I'm gonna fucking kill google" Ballmer?

Deiter may have switched the license back to GPLv2, but at this point, why bother ... he's done more to promote the competing fork as being the "legit, safe" one than anything else.

Yup - agree..

[cheros]

Let's start with the premise that SQL Ledger was very obviously scratching a well spread itch - it did have quite a take up and even I was looking at it. So credit to Dieter for addressing a need in a way that obviously got him 'customers'.

However, the accounting system is the financial heart of a company so I decided to lurk on the mailing list and see what was going on, and eventually I asked a few questions where I felt there were issues. There are 2 things to note here:

(1) the list if fully moderated,

Re:

[pipatron]

I would consider not being able to talk about it as being gagged. You seem to have missed the part where he blocked all discussions about the license on the forum.

Re:

[daveewart]

There does seem to have been some 'gagging', although one could discuss the real meaning of that word further. However, the point: messages sent to the mailing list to discuss the licence issue were not approved for actual posting. Sounds like someone had something to hide.

Re:

[RedBear]

When you feel the urge to be pedantic it helps to actually be well-informed regarding your subject matter. Since you like that sort of thing you should enjoy this:

I think it's pretty clear to most people from the summary that the word "gagged" isn't being used in the strict legal or even literal sense, but rather in the figurative sense:

gag: verb, figurative (of a person or body with authority) prevent (someone) from speaking freely or disseminating information : the administration is trying to gag its crit

Lay off the echo chambers?

[sethstorm]

First of all, the community wasn't "gagged", when you are gagged you are forbidden from saying something
What part of "posts didnt make moderation" did you not see? To preempt it, a private (exclusivist) entity used moderation to remove objection. That's gagging, no matter how the entity was grouped. No "liberty to exclude" excuses can explain it.

Read the following:
No posts to the SQL-Ledger mailing lists asking about the license change were getting past moderation and direct questions to the author were goi

Re:

[nurb432]

Even if they were 'gagged', its his software, his forum, his mailing list... We arent talking about a government here.

Re:

[agittins]

Yeah, the summary is heavy on the language, but the fact is that several community members tried to bring up on the mailing list the fact that the license was changed, but their posts were censored. I would say that meets your definition of Gagged. To date there have still been no posts allowed through to the list regarding the license change. The point now is mostly moot however, as the license has changed back to GPL so the remainder of the community will probably continue on never knowing what has transp

I see you didn't RTFS

[Bananatree3]

The summary says:

"Just recently the license was switched back to GPLv2...

This is what happens when you don't read the summary correctly ;)

Re:

[stoolpigeon]

the summary changed between when the story was first up in the 'mysterious future' and when it went live. which is how it is supposed to work - but could also explain the confusion.

Re:

[Bananatree3]

good point. I wasn't aware that it had changed during that time. That would explain why he didn't notice the change, as he had read the summary while it was still in the firehose.

Re:

[nurb432]

Quite a few people care.

If no one cared, there wouldn't have been a fork a while ago.

But that said, it *is* Deiter's software, so he can change the licensing if he wants. ( and we can all go about our merry way with the fork too.. )

Re:

[sumdumass]

Well.. actually, the choices might be a little more here. Unless this is one of those companies who demands the copyrights to all contributed software, and patches and such the license cannot be changed without those contributers permission. The only way the license could change without the other copy holders permission is if the License is GPLv2 or later versions and the later version was used.

And this leaves a question that needs to be answered. How much of an open-source project can exist without changes

Re:

[Ginger Unicorn]

yeah, i often think, if they ever changed the licence of apache, i'll just fork it, and devote every minute of my spare time learning how to maintain the codebase of a fully featured webserver. That should be really practical.