US Visitor Fingerprints To Be (Perhaps) Stored by FBI 503
stair69 writes "Since 2004 many visitors to the United States have had 2 fingerprints taken under the US-VISIT scheme. Now there are new plans to extend this scheme — under the proposal all 10 fingerprints will be taken, and they will be stored permanently on the FBI's criminal fingerprint database. The fingerprints will also be made available to police forces in other countries. The scheme is due to be introduced by the end of 2008, but it will be trialled in 10 of the bigger airports initially." Of course, it is worth pointing out that given the recent change in Congress, I suspect that a number of countries will get a "bye" on this round,
Nothing for me to worry about (Score:3, Funny)
(or am I just fooling myself)
Fricken scary.
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Re:Nothing for me to worry about (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Nothing for me to worry about (Score:4, Funny)
KFG
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This is where I think you've gone too far.
The current standard used to judge this sort of thing usually is "how much of an intrusion is this upon the innocent?"
If something is considered to not be an intrusion, it's acceptable. If it is one, than it's usually not.
A cop LOOKING AT YOU is not an intrusion. You don't even realize it's happening. And the idea that you group your license plate number in the same category as your DNA and Fingerprints tells me th
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Re:Nothing for me to worry about (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Nothing for me to worry about (Score:4, Funny)
Hilarious (Score:3, Interesting)
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In fact this means that everyone who's ever flying has his prints taken. And that's the point behind it all. Not that the US become a safer place, but the part that this info will be shared with other countries does imply that other countri
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Surely, a) your sweat in the golve can combust, and b) your fingers are then a concealed weapon. Conclusion: gloves are for terrorists only and are to be banned.
Go figure...
Re:Hilarious (Score:5, Funny)
Yes, but since it has to display the photo of the person in order to properly do the print match, won't we get to a point where we can't go any faster? I mean, the human eye is only so fast. The whole notion of finger-print matching just wouldn't feel right if you don't see 10,000 faces stream across the screen before finally finding the match.
Here's my Reference (Score:5, Funny)
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Well, technically, it only means that the US has an interest in sharing it with other countries.
What for? If you already have a trail of FBI against dusting and fingerprinting everything you touch, it's probably a bit late to start worrying about privacy, no? Sunglasses and trench
Re:Hilarious (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, yes, but they aren't simply going to undo everything, as National Security is still a major issue that the Dems cannot afford to appear weak on. They won largely because the Reps were doing such a bad job of actually executing on Security. The degree to which the objections both of the Dems and the voters were based on the Reps leading us towards a police state is debateable but I'd say limited, especially among the elected officials. The "damage" is stupid, failed policies, not evil anti-Democratic policies. So the Dems still want to have an effective and most likely invasive National Security policy, and the question is: Are they in fact any smarter than the Reps in terms of making an actual effective working policy?
My educated guess: No.
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Home of the free... (Score:4, Insightful)
How does it feel being considered a criminal by default? Heck, in my day job I teach people to treat every input with suspicion and every unknown as if it were malicious, but at least I'm speaking about data, not humans!
If you lived in the UK (Score:2, Interesting)
Think yourself lucky you got the Bush part of the Blair Bush combo.
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Uh, I don't know what planet you're living on, but the USA on my planet has already been doing all of these things for literally years. You can't do shit without a birth certificate, driver's license, and social security card (or t
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How does it feel?
Well, entry into the US has always been unpleasant. You get large number of questions, the customs people tend to be fairly aggressive and, in recent years, the photography and fingerprints are making the situation worse. I'd much rather go to Canada or Australia (well or the EU, but as I am an EU citizen, I guess this is quite different).
However, the main feature of how it feels after 8 hours on a plane is boring and irritating. You just want to get out of the airport, out of conditioned a
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Re:Home of the free... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Nah, we have 300 million people, a lot of land, and a lot of technological expertise. I suspect that we can stand on our own if we really had to. Manufacturing can be a *hell* of a lot more automated than it is now, and ultimately, workers will realize that automation creates domestic jobs rather than taking them away.
-b.
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USSR tried to do that trick once - isolate itself from another countries. This attempt failed miserably.
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Oil: we have plenty in the ANWR and offshore should we need to tap it. If we go self-sufficient, we won't be burning a lot of it for energy anyway, since we'll probably go mostly nuclear with some wind, hydro, and solar.
Titanium: it's a niche element. Unlike the Russians, we never used a lot of it in airframes.
Steel/aluminium: we have the production and recycling capacity.
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Re:Home of the free... (Score:5, Insightful)
I always love the idea that many USians think basic human rights so important that only US citizens deserve them. Gitmo Logic.
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I don't disagree with your basic premise. But AFAIK, the US Government does not fingerprint passport applicants. Maybe they lift them off of the application forms, but I doubt it.
-b.
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Re:Home of the free... (Score:4, Insightful)
I cannot tell you how exhausting that is. I am frequently accused of being a racist, a communist, a stupid liberal, an arrogant fascist republican, a profiteer, and best of all - ignorant. All because I want the system to work the way it was supposed to and choose to self regulate and protect myself from the dangers that these freedoms bring. That is the cost of these freedoms.
People don't want these freedoms. People want to live free from being offended, free from possibly being harmed, free from feeling inadequate, free being financially self sufficient, and free from criticism. It's like some weird ass self sustained Harrison Bergeron environment.
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Re:Home of the free... (Score:5, Informative)
Well that's nice. What is your basis for being against fingerprinting citizens? Perhaps the Constitution and Bill of Rights, 4th Ammendment in particular, motivate your belief?
Well guess what. You won't find the word "citizen" anywhere in the 4th Ammendment or anywhere else in the Bill of Rights. They all say "people", and that isn't a synonym for "citizens". When the Constitution means citizens it says citizens.
A lot of people take for granted that our rights don't apply to non-citizens. This is simply non-factual; there are very few of our rights that only apply to citizens. The rest are for everyone.
Re:Home of the free... (Score:4, Insightful)
Well are we arguing about what is okay, or are we arguing about what the people in power are actually going to do?
If the former, then the Constitution is a wonderful source as it defines what the government is supposed to have the power to do and what it isn't. Since the person I replied to used the terms "I'm against", and "I couldn't give a shit", I think it is very likely that this is what we are talking about.
If the latter, then what we the people think is okay is even more important because it is only due to our acceptance or rejection of the government's actions that our rights have any hope of being respected. The Consitution does nothing to protect us as long as it is merely a document, as we all know the documentation and reality can be wildly different things. As far as the Constitution is seen as a list of demands by the people, with the Democratic process being the first and the 2nd Ammendment being the last indication of how we intend to enforce those demands, then it actually works. If we accept the loss of our rights, then they are taken, yet if we refuse to accept them then that is our only chance to have them respected.
To put it in more practical terms: The last U.S. president to be caught spying on people without a warrant was impeached. What has changed since then, if not acceptance of that kind of behavior?
Similarly, it is the acceptance by people of the destruction of rights of non-citizens that allows it to continue. Therefore, an argument based on the Constitution about how that should not be allowed can change someone's mind, and thus change the environment in which the destruction of rights occurs.
number to describe this move (Score:5, Insightful)
Just another reason... (Score:5, Interesting)
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What the heck is that supposed to mean? (Score:5, Interesting)
What the heck is that supposed to mean? What countries? And why? And, for that matter, how is congress going to get involved at that level of detail...especially since they're already claiming they can't even do anything to stop Bush from escalating the war, despite the fact that by most accounts they were elected to do just that?
Was part of this remark clipped off (note the trailing comma) or am I missing some interpretation that is less senseless than the obvious?
--MarkusQ
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Oh come on, I'm just grasping at straws here.
Don't count on the "recent change in Congress"... (Score:5, Insightful)
Fingerprint databases are a very useful crime-fighting tool. The only objection to fingerprinting everyone (somewhere in elementary school) is the indignity of (mis)treating every citizen as a (potential) criminal.
Americans, however, are surprisingly tolerant of the government-imposed indignities — judging, for example, by their willingness to stand barefeet and beltless (belt's buckles are often metallic, you see) on the dirty floor in front of the TSA officers... Removing your footwear for inspection used to be optional (you could elect to be searched instead), but is now required since no one was objecting — except for a few freaks, like yours truly.
Fingerprinting non-citizens will not even raise the proverbial eye-brow of the nation...
Re:Don't count on the "recent change in Congress". (Score:2)
But isn't everyone a "potential" criminal?
My only problem with fingerprinting is the chance that I will get ink on my shirt. As long as it applies to everyone, there really shouldn't be an indignity from this, but I understand how some can feel dirty after going through airport security. It may also help if the fingerprint database is not referred to as a
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All of which is lovely, until someone makes a mistake.
And then your life is shattered if it's your fingerprint they mismatched.
Do you think your government would ever make such a mistake?
Re:Don't count on the "recent change in Congress". (Score:2)
As well it shouldn't. Before we let a random person into our country, we need to verify his identity to make sure he's not a criminal or terrorist. Biometrics are one way to do this since documents can and will be forged. There are a lot of people who hate us, perhaps justifiably. Given this, we need to protect ourselves. Border security is one of the least intrusive ways to do this compared to domestic spying and
Re:Don't count on the "recent change in Congress". (Score:2)
And don't forget, it's only the terrorists who have anything to worry about, according to the article: 'We will have a world in which any terrorist who has ever been in a safe house or has ever been in a training camp is going to ask himself or herself this question: have I ever left a fingerprint anywhere?' Chertoff said.
After all, everyone who has ever been in a building or location that is later identified as a "safe
Which Airports (Score:3, Informative)
Whatnow? (Score:3, Interesting)
I was under the impression that the recent change in congress was motivated by the people of this fine nation tired of America breaking all the rules of decentcy, rights of the people, and other things of that nature... So how would some countries get a "bye"? What is a "bye"? Is it a general banning? If so, most Democratic Party methods of increasing money and lowering debt is raising tarrifs and increasing tourism... Banning the richest, although terrorist prone, nations is not something they would want to do.
Or is it that with the recent change in Congress, this bill will go "bye"? That America will no longer rubber-stamp a Big Brother nation into being...
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A "bye" in this context means "they will be excluded from the requirements." So, if you're flying from certain countries and you're a citizen of that country—e.g. Great Britain—you might not have to give a full print set, but if you're from others, you will. It's sense #1 in this definition. [reference.com]
back at ya (Score:5, Interesting)
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And yet, if the ones implementing this scheme were the UK, or Germany, or France, or Japan, fingerprinting all visitors including Americans... would you feel like you're been treated like a good-intentioned tourist, or like a potential criminal?
Re:back at ya (Score:4, Insightful)
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citizens have a gratuitious extra 100 EUR (UK: 155) processing fee slapped
onto their visa handling fee. See eg.
http://www.brazilianembassy.nl/english/cons_513.h
My experience (Score:3, Insightful)
Avoiding the USA..? (Score:4, Interesting)
If this goes ahead, before visiting the USA I want to know:
1) What is the chance of a false positive with this system? i.e. what is the chance that it might think I am someone they are looking for?
2) What is the procedure then for someone who is not an American citizen?
I can imagine what hell you might go through if this system identifies you as a wanted terrorist - not a chance I want to take, even if the odds of it happening are very low.
Re:Avoiding the USA..? (Score:5, Interesting)
So, it's quite unlikely that they'll be checking your airport-scanned fingerprints against the whole database while you wait, as they can't possibly have as many experts checking prints, and would have to automate the process (allowing the system to declare HIT/NOHITs automatically, which means there'd be an error margin). If they did automate the process and actually look for your prints in the whole database, they should be trained and informed that any result from such a system is NOT definitive, and subject to an expert's confirmation to be taken seriously.
If they're doing anything else than just taking the prints and storing them (no, didn't read tfa.. will do later), most probably they'll be doing authentication rather than identification. That is, the first time they take your prints, store them on a DB related to your passport number for example. When you pass thru the airport again, you're re taken your prints, and they're searched on the DB by your passport number... if your record on the DB says there's your prints there, it will compare the prints it just scanned to the ones on the DB, if they match, no problem, if they don't, houston we have a problem (auth is way more accurate than ident when done automatically, and of course orders of magnitude faster).
but that's not the problem.. what really scares me is that they're (according to the summary) adding them to a CRIMINAL database!.. that's outright illegal in some countries, and it should well be!! Normally there's a civil database, which is used for civil ident (like say on a bank, or to get a new document or something), and only uses 2 or 6 fingers, non-rolled, which are not fit for matching against crime-scene-lifted partial prints (btw, its quite rare to find a complete, perfect print on a crime scene a la CSI or worse, national treasure.. BS). And then there's criminal systems which keep all 10 fingers, rolled, which can be used to search against crime-scene-lifted partial fps. Mixing the two sucks. Sadly It's also done here in Argentina when you get a passport, as they only have one AFIS system for the federal police, they use the same one both for criminals and for civilians.. (apparently we can't afford 2 systems). Records belong to one scope or the other depending on the ID type. The criminal record (if there's any) is kept elsewhere, on another system, and it's only referenced manually with a common key.
Still sucks
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I like the US. Americans are nice... (Score:4, Insightful)
And I've spent more than a year living there. However, I'll be damned if I'll set foot in a country that brands me as a criminal the instant I step off the plane. It's no surprise the RIAA/MPAA comes from the same place... It's bad enough with the ridiculous video [youtube.com] branding me when I just bought the damn movie.
Paranoia is nice under some circumstances, but this is just ridiculous. Like they actually think it'll do any good? It'll be really nice to know who blew up WTC v2.0 after the fact, yeah...
Re:I like the US. Americans are nice... (Score:5, Funny)
As it is I avoid travel to the US (Score:5, Insightful)
At the moment, I will travel on business -- but if they want my fingerprints for a criminal database -- then I will not travel to the US at all. I will not consent to being fingerprinted for criminal database purposes just because I'm on a business trip.
(And I'm not one of the left leaning bleeding heart liberal types
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Holy hell (Score:4, Insightful)
How is any individual supposed to protect themselves when you can't even keep track of who has your fingerprints?
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No finger prints helps. (Score:5, Funny)
Turn it on, place fingers on sand paper, hold as long as you can stand it. Repeat until prints are gone. No problem.
Finger prints are only 1/32 of an in deep. It is dead skin and serves no real purpose. I started sanding mine off several years ago when the state went to mandatory fingerprinting to get a drivers license. It is easy and the look on the persons face when you say "I don't have finger prints!" is just something else.
The other thing you can do is to cover the tips of your fingers with super glue. It works quite well and does not come off for some time.
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No prints, not no *skin*. (Score:3, Interesting)
Is it anything like the looks you get when you pick up an orange and immediately pass out from the agony?
You misunderstood. He's not talking about no SKIN on his fingertips, just no PRINTS. Those ridges don't go all the way down, and it's possible to remove them (albeit not permanently) with no blood involved. My prints on my left hand fade out at the tips and in the middle of one finger just from playing guitar (and building up callouses which have replaced the standard-issue fingerprint skin there).
There are also certain occupations -- cutting up pineapple was one, I think -- where the workers fingertips
Re:No finger prints helps. (Score:5, Funny)
So... any time there's no fingerprints at the crime scene... that was YOU?
Re:No finger prints helps. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:No finger prints helps. (Score:4, Informative)
80 grit? That's like a rough file. Even 180 grit is rougher than necessary.
80 grit is what we use to take paint off of auto body (hint: taking plastic off of steel, you often benefit from a very rough surface) and to shape bondo. It's what we use to rough wood into shape, because it's fast. It's not what we use to do detail work. Your fingerprints, as you say, are maybe 1/32". I think some 220 grit would probably take them off nicely.
Getting Worse Every Time (Score:4, Insightful)
At some point I'm not going to put up with this Bullcrap anymore. I'm just going to stay in Europe. And you can forget about my business.
Two telling comments (Score:2)
What next....really? (Score:2)
I'm equally concerned about false accusations. There is ample case history of fingerprint and DNA mismatches in the US and Canada abroad (mostly due to really sloppy procedures). I'd rather they use the
Re:What next....really? (Score:4, Interesting)
I think that's the most disturbing part for me. Imagine getting picked up when landing in London because you were accidentally tagged as a "money launderer" by the Spanish. It would probably take weeks to get sorted out. In the mean time you could kiss your job good-bye. On top of that with so many databases sharing so much information, you might never be really "cleared." You might land in the US again and get detained for days while they sort out the fact that the Spanish tagged you as a "money launderer," even though it was fixed on the British copy of the Spanish database.
I saw a news item recently about a girl who'd been held for 30 days for having condoms full of flour, which airport official claimed were drugs. (Apparently filling condoms with flour is how the girls at her school make stress releaving squeezies - odd but eccentricity is not a crime). She spent 30 days in jail while substance was re-tested, only to discover it was, in fact, flour.
Another example is the US no-fly list. It has literally cost people their livelihoods when they were no longer able to fly. The worst part is they use really poor matching techniques like name matches - so anyone with certain names were not able to board airplanes! Another man interviewed by the Daily Show was labeled as Saddam Huessein's *dead* son, whose age would have required Saddam to have sired him at the age of 11!.
Here's another delicious example. People who buy large boats that were siezed as part of drug raids often get boarded by the coast guard. The identification number on the ship is almost impossible to change, and the coast guard decides to board the ship based on the registration number. Even though the original owner was arrested and his property was siezed.
Is this really a good idea?
To some degree, a relief (Score:4, Funny)
Feel the pain? There you have it, RSI. Now, under this new scheme, at least the terrorists can relax and use all 10 fingers, knowing there is no more false security in those missing 8 records to enjoy. And the US will benefit-- I anticipate that there will be no more class action suits against the US to deal with the former health crisis due to 2-finger exception techniques.
That said, as a taxpayer I assume the gathering of all 10, instead of just 2, will only incur a moderate 5x cost in upgrading airports and training personel. A bargain!
Maybe someday they'll integrate databases (Score:3, Insightful)
How Apt (Score:4, Informative)
Yes, likely a "good bye" from all their citizens who are already ticked off enough at the US. Certainly I've noticed a huge drop in the number of scientific conferences held in the US. Partly because the visa rules prevent - or at least pose severe problems - for some of those attending and partly because there is a noticeable minority of people who now refuse to travel to the US because of the fingerprinting. I can only imagine that this will swell their ranks.
You're funny (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, a whopping 5% of seats actually changed hands! Cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria!
95% of the people who voted this stuff into place to begin with are still there. Don't expect anything to change.
Hold on a second, paranoids! (Score:4, Funny)
In the mean time, just relax and do what I do: dip your finger tips into sulfuric acid. It doesn't seem tohave anny negattttive effectsss at alll.
Don't like it? Don't go to the USA! (Score:3, Insightful)
Some might argue you need to transit through American airports to get to various destinations (i.e. Spain => South America), but that's a very rare case and you can usually use Canada as a transit point.
I'm scared to do business in the USA (Score:3, Interesting)
The post-9/11 world has changed my views on this, and it just keeps getting worse!
There is no way I will go to the United States to work! I am even avoiding it for the holidays. 10 years ago, we used to just drive south of the border for shopping or recreation - day trips. It's becoming a scary police state and now I'm avoiding travel down south whenever possible.
I guess that's the intended effect of these xenophobic laws, right... keep the law-abiding professional workers (and wealthy tourists) out of your country. Good thing the US economy is so healthy. Ooops
Diplomatic Reciprocity (Score:3, Informative)
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I'm sure that's on the table, but in this case it was (is?) Brazil doing it as a political statement all the lines of what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
You don't have to be guilty. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:I don't worry (Score:5, Insightful)
> (for non-criminal reasons). It doesn't bother me.
> When I decide to rob banks or kill people, then I'll be worried.
Remember that fingerprints in the database are stored as encoded strings describing the location of some branching points in the ridge patterns. Essentially a hash function.
Note that the data on which the hash is constructed is subject to scaling and rotation of the captured image. Note that selection of the points is hard in some people's patterns (because there may be unusually many branch points.
Now note that we are addding a very large amount of new prints to be processed, of which a much lower proportion will ever be needed than in the previous population of the database. There will be extreme pressure to do this quickly and cheaply with less-skilled operators. This will lead to many false matches.
We already have many cases of false matches leading to arrest of innocent people when fingerprint data is shared between FBI and Interpol (made worse by some differences in technical standards between different police organizations. And because most of the victims of these false positives will not be US voters, fixing the problems will not be a high priority.
If you really believe that mass processing of huge fingerprint databases is feasible with acceptably low error rates, you should advocate that a full set of prints for the FBI database should be taken with every US driver's license application. This would have enormous benefits if every fingerprint found at a crime scene could easily be matched. By raising the chance of solving crimes by an order of magnitude, it would create an enormous incentive for people not to commit crimes. But I don't know anyone who trusts the system enough to want this to be done.
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-Abuse of system. The data is there, so someone could abuse it and run checks they are not supposed to.
-False positives. Once you're in the system, you're a candidate for showing up in some searches, even if you're not actually the match.
-Privacy. It's an intangible thing, but somehow
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Is there a Microsoft mouse under you right hand?
Is the monitor in front of your head have a Microsoft logo on it?
What about his name!
The real name of "the" Bill Gates is William Henry Gates III.
Nowadays he is known as Bill Gates (III), where "III" means the
order of third (3rd.)
By converting the letters of his current name to the ASCII-values
and adding his (III), you get the following:
Re:Strong border security... (Score:4, Insightful)
The average [inser_country_here] Citizen is innoent too, you know. And yet we are seen as a potential criminal when entering the U.S. (more so if we are Latin American, African or Middle-Eastern).
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But if we catch the non-innocent fraction and turn them away before they enter, then this makes everyone's life in the US a bit easier. We're not talking about a criminal prosecution here, we're talking about the privilege of entering US soil.
-b.
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Just go for the best possible border security, close all airports, all harbours, cut a fibers running through the ocean, stop all satelite communication and have yourself a nice little country full of freedom.
Good luck, bye bye.
Oh, and please don't forget to fetch all these americans everywere around the world. We don't need 'm anymore.
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Also bare in mind that 9/11 hijackers had legit documentation. All the fingerprints I can see doing is matching the terrorist up after the fact.
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You need to more, or perhaps get to know anyone in any role at all related to law enforcement (bonus points for making in friend in counter-intel). When you catch someone you know is a bad guy, you are usually presented with a giant wake left behind that person as they move about, do business, etc. Where does he go? How often do his transactions coincide with another pattern? Does he use disposable phone? What numbers has he been calling with those phones? Etc. The