Bush Backed Spying On Americans 1092
jb.hl.com writes "President Bush allowed security agents to eavesdrop on people inside the U.S. without court approval after 9/11, the New York Times has reported. The report says that under a 2002 presidential order, the National Security Agency has been unconstitutionally and illegally monitoring international communications of hundreds in the U.S. When asked about the programme on U.S. TV, the Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, said, 'The president acted lawfully in every step that he has taken.'"
Palpatine loses one (Score:4, Informative)
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10496539/ [msn.com]
Re:Palpatine loses one (Score:4, Insightful)
No Democrat would deny Senator Lieberman the right to say or do anything that he likes; but if he's going to insist on taking a position contrary to what the majority of his party believes in, he will not get the support of, or access to, the resouces of the party - plain and simple.
The Republicans coined a term for this kind of politician as they also have a few mavericks who refuse to toe the party line...they call 'em RINOs (Republicans In Name Only). We have a DINO in Mr. Lieberman.
Re:Palpatine loses one (Score:5, Informative)
Yes. God forbid a politician think for him or her self, instead of doing what they are told.
It's politicians like Lieberman (not that I'm a big fan) and McCain who stand up for what they believe in *despite* party affiliation that keeps me from losing respect for the political process entirely.
Re:Palpatine loses one (Score:5, Insightful)
Lemme see, the Iranian President has claimed that the Holocaust never happened. It was entirely made up by the media to gain support the Jews. He also states that Israel should be wiped off the map and moved to Europe or Alaska. In short, the guy is nuts [payvand.com].
A commentator wrote an article in the Chicago Sun Times this morning that pretty well covered how it's going to go down:
1. The US has used up its "attack bad country" card for the time being, so they won't do anything.
2. Israel will take the threat seriously and bomb the hell out of Iran's caches of missiles and nuclear weapons facilities.
3. The UN will make more pointless resolutions condemning Israel.
Sound about right?
Re:Palpatine loses one (Score:3, Insightful)
Iran's spy chief used just two words to respond to White House ridicule of last week's presidential election: "Thank you."
Re:Palpatine loses one (Score:5, Insightful)
Not quite. He called it a myth, claiming that not nearly as many people were killed as is commonly claimed (which is a common position to take in Iran). Not that Ahmadinejad isn't a rather disturbing character. It shows how poorly the "Domino Theory" for the middle east went, when someone like Khatami was replaced by someone like Ahmadinejad. The guy is frightening even to many Iranian hardliners because he's a follower of Ayatollah Mohammad Taghi Mesbah-Yazdi, a supporter of the Hojjatieh movement with close ties to the Haqqani theological school. The movement is based on the goal of bringing about the return of the 12th Imam by creating chaos on Earth, and was used by the Shah to try to wipe out the Bahai faith. I sincerely hope that he's not a member of the Hojjatieh movement. At least Ahmadinejad has stressed the importance of development and justice to bring about the Imam's return.
What a disturbing inverse-domino-theory this turned out to be
Re:Palpatine loses one (Score:5, Insightful)
I am not one to speculate on figures-- what do the numbers matter anyway? What difference does it make if it were five hunderd thousand, six million, or fifteen million? The horrors of the death camps were systematic and independant of the number of those that lost their lives there.
The concentration camps were an integral part of the Nazi political machine. They were used to threaten those they wanted to join the party. They were used to get rid of dissidents. They were used to suppress any possible alternative political voice and so every nationalist organization unafilliated with the Nazis was generally banned by Himmler (examples included the Guido von List Gesselshaft, the Armanenshaft, and many others, some of which have survived to this day). Such bans were in effect regardless of whether the group opposed the Nazis or not. Indeed, I believe that the strategy was to use ethnic minorities (most notably Jews and Gypsies) as examples which could be used to threaten or intimidate the other citizens of the Reich into fearful loyalty to the Nazi party. In many ways, this is more horrifying than if it were simply a matter of racial hatred.
We should not forget so easily that genocidal programs were in effect in the US, and that some of the same ethnic groups that were targetted in the Third Reich were targetted here (most notably the Roma/Gypsies), mostly through forced sterilization. Such practices were common in the US, Canada, and the UK. Sure we didn't kill these people in mass numbers, but this doesn't make these actions any less evil. Similarly, a large number of techniques were employed to destroy the Native Americans as a cohesive social unit. These incldued some forced sterilizations, but also systematic attacks on native languages and culture. The institutional focus on the destruction of native languages and culture have remained in effect in this country through at least the early Clinton years (I do not know if anything has changed since 1994-- I believe it has but I have seen no concrete evidence that this is true).
Re:Palpatine loses one (Score:5, Interesting)
You're humorously short-sighted. If an Israeli attack hits Iran from Iraqi airspace, Iran will cross the border into Iraq.
"Either that, or the Israelis will be flying F-22 stealth fighters with full radar jamming and supercruise capability. In which case you'd never even see them coming."
Stuff blows up. People look up, see planes flying south by southwest. Iranians put 2 and 2 together, invade Iraq.
Heck, that's even worse: it allows the Iranians to assume the planes were US forces.
(By the way, if you're jamming radar, you are the exact opposite of stealth.)
Wow, there's a shocker. (Score:5, Insightful)
That aside: Bad week for the Neocons.
First, they're not allowed to torture people anymore (not that we ever did, right? I mean, I'm sure the folks at those secret CIA prisons in eastern Europe were Geneva Convention poster boys). Then the PATRIOT act gets blocked so they have to go deal with those darn activist judges to get warrants again. Now, people are acting like the President can't override statute with an executive order! Next thing you know, people will actually want leaders who follow the Constitution. Heck, this keeps up and nobody'll want to be President of the United States anymore - we're just takin' all the fun out of it.
I personally look forward to the day when the GOP has something to do with, you know, conservatism again. "Spend responsibly" rolls off the tounge better than "constant wanton abuse of power". Still, at least it was just violation of the basic agreement that forms the basis of our government and not, you know, a blowjob. Otherwise the nation might have to sit through another impeachment.
Bush & Co. should not be above the law (Score:5, Insightful)
Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft and Gonzales should be quickly tried and promptly executed as a deterrent to our future officials who might think that they can use power for their own purposes rather than as servants of the electorate. We need to put our so-called leaders in permanent mortal fear of even getting close to violating their oaths to uphold the Constitution. Until then, they will continue to think that they can rule us rather than represent us.
Re:Bush & Co. should not be above the law (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Bush & Co. should not be above the law (Score:3, Informative)
"Both political parties and the media are far to the right of the general population on a whole host of issues. And the population is just disorganized, atomized... And that's why the media and campaigns keep away from (political) issues. They know that on issues, they're going to lose people. So therefore you have... George Bush... this pampered kid who came from a rich family and went to prep school and an
Re:Bush & Co. should not be above the law (Score:5, Funny)
As many as he likes, as long as they don't involve consensual sex and hummers.
Re:Bush & Co. should not be above the law (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Bush & Co. should not be above the law (Score:3, Insightful)
Just one. However, it has to be one that the majority of the USA cares about. Killings, kidnappings, torture? The average American doesn't care, as long as it doesn't happen to them. Now if Bush was caught getting a blowjob, it would be a different matter altogether.
Re:Bush & Co. should not be above the law (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Bush & Co. should not be above the law (Score:5, Insightful)
Question: Should the government have been given the authority to spy on Americans without warrants after the 9/11 attacks?
Answer: 69% no, 31% yes.
A third of the US thinks establishing a secret police force with no judicial oversight is a real good idea.
Re:Bush & Co. should not be above the law (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, I'm pretty sure what they are actually thinking is, "Damn it, if those pinko Democrats would just let Dirty Harry and Rambo go after those raghead bastards and stop pesterin' 'em with all their RULES and their REGULATIONS, hell, we'd kick some ass and get unleaded down to $.50 a gallon by Christmas!"
Re:Bush & Co. should not be above the law (Score:5, Insightful)
If we started calling for Bush to die from old age, will the Secret Service really have a case against us? Is the President immune from being indicted and tried for crimes that carry the ultimate penalty? What ARE you saying, exactly?
I disagree with the OP about ONE thing, however. As a clear enemy to the people of the United States, upon Bush's indictment for war crimes, he should be held in prison before seeing trial for the exact number of days that he has held Jose Padilla (who is on his third year and counting).
Re:Bush & Co. should not be above the law (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Bush & Co. should not be above the law (Score:5, Insightful)
So the question is how many people do you have to kill and torture before you get the death penalty? I say one death is too many but hey what do I know, I am not a republican.
Re:Bush & Co. should not be above the law (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Wow, there's a shocker. (Score:3, Insightful)
It seems to me that if you believe that Bush does habitually abuse his power, you would be especially supportive of a law that prevents him from using the military in that way.
One day the military are brought in during an emergency to serve as a temporary police force without following proper legal procedure, the next day they're brought in during an "emergency" to "gaurd" polling places
Re:Wow, there's a shocker. (Score:5, Insightful)
Given that it appears to be passing unvetoably, the Pentagon has simply changed the manual. [nytimes.com]
And declared the new version classified.
Re:Wow, there's a shocker. (Score:3, Interesting)
Even more sadly, looking back at our recorded history, we are acting like human beings. We haven't evolved much from the ape who first used a tool to club the crap out of the ape with the nicer foodstuff. Only the tools have changed.
Re:Wow, there's a shocker. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Wow, there's a shocker. (Score:5, Insightful)
Sad thing is, as much as the Republican PR machine would like you to to believe otherwise, the Democrats have been the party of at least financial responsibility for quite some time. Military Responsibility too, unfortunately -- at least the Democrats haven't sent people off to war with no plan other than "sit tight for a few years, we'll think of something."
What I don't get is why the people in the Republican party who really do have morals and ethics don't speak out against the path that Bush, Rove, and Cheney are taking their party down. It's clearly a complete 180 from where they're claiming to be. An ethical person coming out and saying "Ok, I don't care what Bush says, he's NOT a Republican, we're disowning him" would solve so many problems...
Re:Wow, there's a shocker. (Score:3, Interesting)
This brings up something that really bothers me; I wish that all references to legislation would simply be a number, instead of some (usually misleading) title. I keep waiting for someone to create the "Stop clubbing baby seals act" that in truth cuts funding for all public programs. It is too easy for people introducing legislation to avoid putting a spin on the name.
Re:Wow, there's a shocker. (Score:4, Insightful)
Why do you think it took so long to release papers from Kennedy's time? National security?
Lies. Everyone has secrets to hide.
Re:Wow, there's a shocker. (Score:5, Insightful)
I disagree. Look at their wars:
Cliton got us into Kosovo.
- We acted in concord with NATO, the UN, and our allies, and we got the job done without alienated every other country in the world.
- We are *done* in Kosovo. When Clinton was selling the war to the American people, all the Republican congresspeople and right-wing pundits said this was going to be Clinton's Vietnam, that we were entering a quagmire, etc. etc. Guess what? Situation is peaceful.
- We have had no combat fatalities in Kosovo. We are done and the war is over. Service people have died, but not because of enemy combatants and insurgents
- Clinton never lied to the American people, and never relied on cooked up intelligence to sell the war. We went in to stop genocide and get rid of the bad guy. We did just that.
Bush got us into Iraq."Both parties are power hungry and both push their powers as far as they can."
Yes, but power-hungry Democrats have actually helped this country and its people. FDR packed the supreme court and installed himself for an unprecedented 3rd time. Talk about abuse of power. But, he got us in a good position to win WWII, and his New Deal programs modernized the US, so that now America is a modern industrial country like those in Europe, instead of a corrupt, poor backwater bananna republic like in Central and South America.
Yes, politicians are power-hungry and corruptable. However, your average American fares far better under Democratic presidents than they do under Republican presidents. Politicans aren't all the same. Bush is *much* worse than Clinton.
Re:Wow, there's a shocker. (Score:5, Informative)
I suggest you travel the world a little and see how different political systems pan out. You will probably come to the realization that:
1. Communism doesn't work. Old News.
2. Capitalist countries with social services and little governmental corruption do the best for their average citizen -- i.e. Japan, Australia, Northern European countries. They have a large middle class, with social mobility.
3. Purely capitalist countries fare the worst -- they have no middle class. Most of the people live literally on the street or in shanties -- I'm not talking crazy homeless guy, but mom, dad, and kids. There is a small class of wealthy elite who run the entire economy and government, and they keep it all for themselves. It never trickles down. They have unchecked power, and they have no interest in letting go of *any* of their power and money.
You want to know what country has the most productive economy? Finland. Yes, Finland, a country with cradle-to-grave social services. It also has a high standard of living and a large middle class.
I'm sick of these neocon hucksters trying to destroy the middle class. If you like corruption and business elites running everything, MOVE TO SOUTH AMERICA. You are trying to destroy the American dream. You and your ilk have worn out your welcome.
Yet another impeachment count ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Yet another impeachment count if the Democrats can find the spine to win the 2006 elections.
If you're not concerned about the president creating a US KGB, then you're a fascist and you don't deserve to be an American. You're an American hater because you hate the Constitution of the United States.
Flying flags does not represent patriotism. Nor does sporting yellow magnetic stickers made in China. Belief and upholding the CONSTITUTION makes you an American.
GW Bush is NOT an American. He is a demonic usurpur. He'd be far more comfortable living in Saudia Arabia.
Re:Constitution just a piece of paper. (Score:4, Informative)
People wonder why Bush and Co. can get away with the stuff they do. But it's easy to get away with stuff when your opponents are habitual and compulsive liars. If you don't want Bush to get away with this crap, THEN STOP LYING ABOUT IT!
Reminder (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Reminder (Score:5, Funny)
You seem to be mistaken...Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia.
Eastasia is our staunchest ally.
Please report to the nearest reeducation center. Thank You.
But the problem is... (Score:5, Insightful)
In related news.. (Score:5, Informative)
Great quote (Score:5, Interesting)
"God forbid that there be a terrorist attack that could have been prevented by the Patriot Act after it has expired," said Sen. Jon Kyl, an Arizona Republican.
Hell, why stop there, let's wipe with the constitution a little more and go straight to a Police State Act, then Sen. Kyl can argue "God forbid that there be a terrorist attack that could have been prevented by the Police State Act before it was passed." Yeah, a prison could be real safe too.
If 47 senators are so for it, maybe they should just "opt-in" to giving up their rights, instead of passing another odious law that will apply to them too? Oh yeah, that's because it won't apply to them. They are elite. Their names will never be on a no-fly list. Their personal information will never be stored at a company like ChoicePoint (if you ran ChoicePoint, the first thing you'd do is create a blacklist so that no one who could mess with your business model could be affected by a scam). But they're oh-so-ready to shackle the common man to keep him safe.
Re:Great quote (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, Ted Kennedy showed up on a NFL. There is a Republican Congressman who is also on the List.. can't recall the name off the top of my head.
Also, there's no mechanism for getting off of the NFL. What they claim to do is add a note next to your name on the list.
None of this is tied a book release, oh no. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:None of this is tied a book release, oh no. (Score:4, Insightful)
Ease up. (Score:4, Insightful)
I think the implication is not that he fabricated the information, but rather that if honesty and integrity in the executive branch was his single motivating factor, he would have yelled it immediately, not sat on it while he wrote a book. Quite obviously, he felt the information was important enough to have some monetary value, but not important enough to require immediate attention from the people.
No matter what your opinion of Bush, the author comes out looking slimy. In my opinion, deservedly so.
Re:Ease up. (Score:5, Insightful)
no, the author comes out looking like instead of writing an article about it and letting it devolve into the standard fox/nyt fight back and forth, he chose to sit back and research the shit out of it, then publish something that cannot be brushed away, something thorough and well reasoned.
until we know the exact circumstances of the editorial decision not to print a year ago, it would be inappropriate to label the move opportunistic, well, any more opportunistic than a republican criticisng a liberal for sleazy business practices.
They said that they delayed a year to do more research. DOESNT IT SEEM LIKELY THAT A YEAR'S WORTH OF RESEARCH MIGHT PRODUCE ENOUGH MATERIAL FOR A BOOK!!??? I for one, think it just might.
And another thing, the NYT article very gingerly mentioned that the white house asked them not to publish. doesnt it seem likely that such a request, from the executive branch of the federal govt might make a paper a little hesitant to rush off and go shouting that the pres. had been violating the constitution and his oath of office? It would make ME slow down and do some research, that's for fucking sure.
Gettting a full book's worth of info and then putting that out there is a much less easily dismissed statement than a few articles. Given the Bush administration's ability to talk its way out of immediate criticism of gross misconduct, I'd say that the NYT's actions were the only reasonable response to white house pressure not to publish.
Thank God for fallacyfiles.org. (Score:3, Insightful)
From TFS... (Score:3, Insightful)
But is it still legal when the steps are combined? It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
Sounds strangely familiar... (Score:5, Insightful)
Hmm...wasn't there another president who got in trouble for spying on other americans? Watershed...waterfall...waterbed...definitely water-something...
Oh yeah! Here [wikipedia.org] it is!
And this is just the latest of Dubya and Company's shocking assaults against their own nation...sadly, an offence that would have been considered grounds for immediate impeachment (not to mention additional criminal prosecution) thirty years ago hardly raises an eyebrow today. Apparently, we're used to this sort of thing by now.
I'm pretty sure that this is not what the Founding Fathers had in mind when they fought and died so that we might have a nation free from tyranny.
Re:The truly amazing part is that we elected him.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:The truly amazing part is that we elected him.. (Score:4, Funny)
Something else to trouble you: (Score:5, Interesting)
"(It) basically says that if a person, a reasonable person, would feel that someone was acting under orders
Nothing new .. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Nothing new .. (Score:4, Informative)
I'm honestly not sure how you could be more wrong. Instead of just guessing at what you think they do based on your own bizarre interpretation of the name of the agency, you could try actually looking up real information on what the role of the NSA is. From their website [nsa.gov] we see that their stated mission is a dual one, involving "Information Assurance" to protect US information, and "Foreign Signals Intelligence" to collect and process foreign communications. Feel free to actually read the executive order [utexas.edu] that defines what the NSA does. Spying on US citizens is precisely what the NSA is prohibited from doing, and handling of foreign intelligence is part of their mission statement.
Jedidiah.
President acted lawfully (Score:4, Insightful)
This makes slashdot? (Score:4, Informative)
Status of encryped Voice-over-IP and email? (Score:3, Interesting)
I wonder how long it is before they use NSA intercepts to implement other authoritarian measures, such as drug/copyright/misc law enforcement.
And, is anyone surprised that Vice President Dick "Go Fuck Yourself, we're gonna invade Iraq and torture/kidnap people for my profit" Cheney is pushing the whole spy-on-american-citizens philosophy as well? The guy is the single greatest point of all things evil in the world, and must be removed from power & influence immediately.
NY times sat on this for a year (Score:5, Interesting)
"The White House asked The New York Times not to publish this article, arguing that it could jeopardize continuing investigations and alert would-be terrorists that they might be under scrutiny. After meeting with senior administration officials to hear their concerns, the newspaper delayed publication for a year to conduct additional reporting. Some information that administration officials argued could be useful to terrorists has been omitted."
And how exactly is knowing that the NSA isn't under court-oversight, gonna help terrorists???? I guess Bin Laden is now gonna hold off on making all those phone calls to the States, now that he knows the NSA doesn't need to call a judge before starting the wiretap.
The New York Times simply cannot be stupid enough to believe that this knowledge will help terrorists. They are a bunch of sniveling, subservient, fart-catchers. They care less about informing the public, then in protecting their pathetic "access" to the powerful.
That the government removed the provision that wiretaps should be (effectively) rubber-stamped is shameful. That they kept the people in the dark about this decision is even more shameful. But that the supposed free press also kept this massive decision secret?? That's so fucked, I don't even know where to begin.
A vibrant democracy has a free press. In a democracy, you can speak your mind without fear. Your government is open, and their decisions are public and can be scrutinized. Heck, the public can even influence the decisions!
What America has is a vote every few years to choose between one of two figureheads. There are certainly places in this world, where they don't even pretend to live in a democracy, but this shouldn't give one much comfort.
America: Please. Do something. Your democracy is so shallow, it barely exists, except as some cheap idea evoked by your rulers to justify the invasion of other countries.
Why we aren't all at the barricades is beyond me.
Re:NY times sat on this for a year (Score:5, Interesting)
Oh crap, I want a firmer number here. Did they wait exactly a year? Was it a roughly a year? Was it maybe a bit more than a year? Was the article originally going to be printed before election day 2004?
Free press would be hardpressed to be free (Score:5, Interesting)
Considering how the US has treated other free press agencies like Al-Jazeer by "accidentally" bombing two of their buildings (the precise coordinates of which were specifically given to the military to prevent that sort of accident) as well as harrasing and possibly shooting some of their reporters, somehow I'm not surprised that no one over there has been too keen to start publishing the US's actions over there. Also, Iraq's government and our government's interest in it has nothing to do with democracy, do you really think if the Iraqis voted tomorrow for the US to leave that we would? Puppet governments aren't gone, just getting updates to the facades. Our government is not in the habit of respecting sovereignty or the press.
a Goddamned piece of paper, surprised? (Score:3, Insightful)
how is anyone surprised?
BTW, for those who didnt notice, the times held the story for a YEAR.
And this guy [capitolhillblue.com] broke the story.
Re:a Goddamned piece of paper, surprised? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:a Goddamned piece of paper, surprised? (Score:5, Insightful)
When Bush can say the constitution is "just a goddamned piece of paper"
Did he really say that? Has it been reported by anyone other than Doug Thompson? Who is Doug Thompson, anyway? I'd actually like to pass this around to some people, but I need to know that it's for real.
No, he didn't really say that. (Score:4, Informative)
Basically, if you go around repeating this quote as real (as many on the "blogosphere" have done), it makes you look like an idiot.
Re:No, he didn't really say that. (Score:5, Informative)
From the article :
"I've talked to three people present for the meeting that day and they all confirm that the President of the United States called the Constitution "a goddamned piece of paper." "
from the followup [capitolhillblue.com]
"When a GOP operative first emailed me about the White House meeting where Bush called the Constitution "just a goddamned piece of paper," I put it aside as one of many reports I get about the President's temper tantrums."
"We get tips about Bush's temper and his comments all the time. Most of the tips don't get used because we don't go with information from just one source. The tip about "the goddamned piece of paper" seemed destined for the byte bin until a second aide, in casual conversation, mentioned the comment.
So I called a third source who has confirmed information in the past. At first he was defensive.
"Who told you about that?" I told him I'd picked it up from two other sources.
"Look, you know how the President is," he said. "He gets agitated when people challenge him."
All I wanted to know was did the President of the United States call the Constitution a "goddamned piece of paper."
"Yeah. He did." "
It was not an imaginary converstation [capitolhillblue.com]
We were the first news outlet to identify the names of women who claimed sexual abuse by Bill Clinton when he was attorney general and later governor of Arkansas. We were the first news outlet to report on the ethical problems of many members of Congress in our series: America's Criminal Class: The Congress of the United States. And we were the first to report on the abuse of underage girls on teen model web sites. Links to all of these award-winning stories can be found on our home page.
That doesn't mean you should take everything we print as gospel. Never do that with us or any other news source. Do your own research and reach your own conclusions. And consider the record of the sources you use for news and information. We've published more than 25,000 stories since going online on October 1, 1994, and we've had to retract two of them. That's a record I'm willing to stand on.
My bio can be found on this link. I put my name on everything I write. And I stand behind what I write. I'm an arrogant, stubborn, driven bastard who takes no prisoners and backs down from no one. When I'm wrong, I admit it. Thankfully, I haven't had to do that very often. When I'm right I don't give a damn who doesn't like it or what they say about it.
An editor who taught me a lot once said: "If you piss off both sides you're doing your job."
That's good enough for me.
It sounds worse than it is (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:It sounds worse than it is (Score:3, Informative)
Regardless of the scope of the surveillance conducted by the NSA, the subjects they're allowed to snoop on are severely restricted [cornell.edu]. Here's the relevant bit:
Let's impeach President Dummard (Score:5, Funny)
If this is lawful then we need new laws! (Score:5, Insightful)
If this is true, it only shows how corrupt our laws have become. No serious person could think that Jefferson, Franklin and the other Constitution authors would ever think it's OK for a president to do something like this.
Third agency in 48 hours (Score:5, Insightful)
At some point the question becomes: which of Bush's TLAs [die.net] is not illegally spying on us?
But the saddest thing of all (Score:5, Insightful)
Where are the calls to impeach Bush over his bloody lies?
Dear Pres. Bush, (Score:5, Funny)
But legislative branch was informed! RTFA! (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyone ever hear of FISA [fas.org]? Since the calls and email were international communications, it is within the purview of the CIA to intercept them.
The article also mentions that the government still has to get warrants for domestic taps.
If you don't like it... get FISA repealed!
Re:But legislative branch was informed! RTFA! (Score:4, Informative)
Requests are adjudicated by a special eleven member court called the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.
These taps were done without any judicial permission, which even FISA requires. The time required for a FISC approval (as short as a few hours if a case is urgent) was claimed to be too short, justifiying this.
One of the things I find most worrying about the entire thing, though, is summed up in this statement by Trent Lott:
``I want my security first. I'll deal with all the details after that.''
(see e.g. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&s
I don't want any man who puts security before freedom in my government. If I lived in Mississippi I'd try to do something about him; alas, I live in Utah, so I've got Orrin Hatch to worry about.
Why bother reporting this? (Score:4, Insightful)
I have to admire, though, the way Bush has managed to run roughshod over just about every conservative ideal there is while still managing to keep a sizable percentage of the country fiercely loyal to him.
I could go on, but as I said, why bother? Anyone who doesn't already see the darkness is never going to be swayed by words.
And before you say it: No, I'm not particularly left-leaning. I think conservatism has a lot of good things to offer. If only it were actually being practiced.
Re:Well, that's a big shocker. (Score:3, Funny)
Sure. Maybe they can make something out of the 1000s of 'approved mortgage' and 'p3nis 3nlarger' messages.
Re:Well, that's a big shocker. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Well, that's a big shocker. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Well, that's a big shocker. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Well, that's a big shocker. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Well, that's a big shocker. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Well, that's a big shocker. (Score:4, Insightful)
You don't think that didn't happen with the presidents "offical" aproval? Let's not get out of hand here.
But we already know what will happen, the Dems will take the presidents office in 2008 maybe and the same crap will be pulled but instead we'll just have the other half saving the same thing...
Washington is not going to change until you get some real competition in there and that means a third party. If we don't get motivated to throw another party into the mix and force parties to do more than lie and smile we're just going to have the same thing again and again, a new Waco, a new 9/11, a new Watergate, a new infringement somewhere somehow and the finger pointing will continue and so will business as usual.
You don't seriously think a Democrat is any more forthright than a Republican? Hell, they feed off each other and at the same time use each other as crutches. They know and accept this business deal. They know people accept them as the only game in town.
Re:Well, that's a big shocker. (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, because this holy "third party" will be so far detached from the two parties we currently have that none of this bullshit will go on, right? Oooh, you are thinking that we're going to get rid of ALL of those in office that are part of the "two party" system and replace them *all* with members from the "third party".
Technically, the New-aged GOP is exactly that, a "third party" that no one has ever seen in America before. One where ignorance, blatant disregard for everything the US stands for, and religious beliefs take precedence over everything else.
BTW -- I used to consider myself a Republican. I don't know what to call myself now.
Re:Well, that's a big shocker. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Well, that's a big shocker. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Well, that's a big shocker. (Score:3, Insightful)
Some medieval mathematician was trying to figure out the relationship between regular shapes and circles. He saw that every time you added a side to a regular shape it came closer to approximating a circle. A triangle becomes a square becomes a pentagon becomes a hexagon and so forth, until you reach an n-sided shape that is very very close to being a circle as perceived by the eye. Then the mathematician realized that contrary to becoming more like
Tighten it up a bit... (Score:3, Insightful)
While I agree in general that the Democra
Re:Well, that's a big shocker. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Well, that's a big shocker. (Score:4, Informative)
Seriously... the politics in all countries are fucked up (and probably appears doubly so if you happen not to lean in the direction of the existing leadership *cough*conservatives*cough*), but at least in Canada, the government respects the rights of it's citizens (or did you forget about those post/9-11 omnibus security bills that got shot down because of fear of human rights violations?) Seriously, say what you want about Canadian politics, but it's a far FAR cry from what's going on down south right now.
Oh, and as a side note, remember who it was that wanted to take Canada to war based on false intelligence... those 'scary' conservatives.
Re:Well, that's a big shocker. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Well, that's a big shocker. (Score:5, Insightful)
Waiting for the retraction in the NYT in a couple of weeks.
Re:Well, that's a big shocker. (Score:5, Funny)
Who cares when we have OpenPGP data encryption and voice scramblers!
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It won't just be the NSA reading your mail (Score:5, Informative)
There's a part of the Dept of Homeland Security known as NVAC (National Visualization and Analytics Center) [pnl.gov]. I'd suggest taking a look at their research agenda. Particularly the "Grand Challenges [pnl.gov]" section, and particularly the "Scalability Challenge" part of that.
Their target is to handle 1 billion structured messages/transactions per hour and 1 million unstructured messages/documents per hour. For reference, there are 6.5 billion people in the world, according to the CIA world factbook. 296 million in the US. When these numbers were presented to the IEEE Vis conference in 2004, questions arose as to whether they were going to get warrants for all of these transactions. The basic response was that they were going to 'anonymize' all of the data. First, do you honestly think that will happen? Second, how much do you trust the anonymizer? And lastly, do you trust the government to not turn off the anonymizer switch? It's a nice, warm, fuzzy feeling, isn't it?
Re:Well, that's a big shocker. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, Martin Luther King wasn't doing a thing illegal. He didn't have anything to worry about from the FBI's surveillance, because the government has always acted in a proper and lawful manner.
The principle here is that the United States constitution should be inviolable. It's a pretty good framework. It guarantees a few nice things like freedom of speech and religion, a fair trial by jury with the burden of proof on the prosecution if you are accused of a crime, and the prohibition of cruel or excessive punishment if you are convicted of that crime.
Freedom from warrantless searches got put in there too. It did not get put there for no reason-surveillance of what you are doing, whether it's a search of your home or interception of your communications, is a violation of your basic rights. Sometimes it is called for due to probable cause that you have committed a crime. In that case, you go to a judge, and that judge reviews your evidence. If (s)he decides that you are correct and the search is called for, a warrant will be issued. That's the purpose of judicial review-an impartial judge must approve acts via due process of law that would normally be a direct violation of your rights, such as requiring you to pay a fine, imprisoning you, or conducting searches and surveillance.
I do not -just- oppose these measures on the grounds that I don't want to be watched even -when- I have nothing to hide, although that's most certainly part of it. I oppose it on the grounds that those Constitutional guarantees are the very reason that America is referred to as the "land of the free"-and every time one gets subverted, that becomes less true. That is a reason. If you don't care, that is your right. But don't expect those of us who -do- happen to like our freedom to stand by and watch while it's chipped away piece by piece.
Re:This guy is Shilling his book (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:This guy is Shilling his book (Score:3, Insightful)
Anyhow, why would it matter if he had written about it in his book. Wonton abuse of power is still news worthy, even if it is reported multiple times.
Re:Oh dear (Score:5, Insightful)
I think what she means is: "Since the president defines what is legal, then what the president does, is, by definition, legal." Very much in keeping with the administration's claims of "Presidential Infalibility".
Re:Oh dear (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Oh dear (Score:5, Insightful)
A person's communications are his effects, even if they are not papers. Paper was the only external data recording and transmission medium available to the Founders. They would surely have included electronic communications today.
Re:Support the President! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Support the President! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:legally done (Score:5, Informative)
Bullshit.
From the article :
"Some NSA officials were so concerned about the legality of the program that they refused to participate, the Times said. Questions about the legality of the program led the administration to temporarily suspend it last year and impose new restrictions."
When people inside the NSA have a problem with its constitutionality,
I think thats a pretty clear indication of just how legal it is.
Re:Uh, guys...it was 9/11. (Score:3, Informative)
No, I don't. Airspace was re-opened on September 13. Most airlines resumed revenue flights within a couple of days.