BBC Tells World About The Warden 573
Anonymous Cowpat writes "The BBC is running a story about the Blizzard title World of Warcraft. Specifically an article about, 'The Warden', Blizzard's highly-invasive anti-cheating software, which some, including The EFF have labelled as spyware. Most of the people around here have probably heard of it by now, but it's interesting to see the story in the mainstream press and (at time of writing) on the front page of the BBC's technology news section, no less." From the article: "The watchdog program, called The Warden by Blizzard, has been known about among players for some time. It makes sure that players are not using cheat software which can, for example, automatically play the game and build up a character's qualities. However, knowledge of it crossed to the mainstream thanks to software engineer Greg Hoglund who disassembled the code of The Warden and watched it in action to get a better idea of what it did."
The Watcher? (Score:5, Funny)
Yes, but who watches the watchers?
For those worried by what The Warden does, Mr Hoglund has produced a program called The Governor that reports on what it is watching.
Oh.
Well in that case, who watches the watchers of the watchers? Hmmm? Answer me that
Re:The Watcher? (Score:5, Funny)
I dont know... The coast guard?
of vigilantes (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:The Watcher? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:The Watcher? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:The Watcher? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:The Watcher? (Score:5, Informative)
It looks at the name of the title bar of each program that is currently running and hashes it. Then, without transmitting anything over the internet, it compares the generated hash list with a hash list of known cheat programs.
Now, here's the beautiful part... if it finds a match, something is transmitted back to Blizzard HQ: A flag on your account. An employee of Blizzard will then keep an eye on your character to look for any suspicious activity.
If that's spyware...it's the poorest excuse for Spyware I've ever heard!
No man is just a number (Score:5, Funny)
Re:No man is just a number (Score:2)
I've been following this... (Score:5, Informative)
The warden then uses the GetWindowTextA function to read the window text in the titlebar of every window. These are windows that are not in the WoW process, but any program running on your computer. I watched the warden sniff down the email addresses of people I was communicating with on MSN, the URL of several websites that I had open at the time, and the names of all my running programs, including those that were minimized or in the toolbar. Once these strings are obtained, they are passed through a hashing function and compared against a list of 'banning hashes' - if you match something in their list, I suspect you will get banned.
Re:I've been following this... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I've been following this... (Score:2)
Re:I've been following this... (Score:5, Informative)
Blizzard is not trying to hide anything, and never was.
Re:I've been following this... (Score:2)
That's good if you know this is in place.
But, more importantly, this is hugely invasive and acts as if it is their right to inspect everything on your machine. It isn't their right -- their EULA might claim so, but I would tend to disagree.
And, since they've already gone
Re:I've been following this... (Score:2)
Am I not allowed to read a web site that has linked to a cheat? Wha
Re:I've been following this... (Score:2)
Re:I've been following this... (Score:2)
Next, warden opens every process running on your computer. The alpha version subverted the method used by warden which was GetProcessNext.Every process is read from in this way. I watched warden open my email program, and even my PGP key manager. Again, I feel this is a fairly severe violation of privacy, but what can you do?
Re:I've been following this... (Score:2)
You can stop playing the damn game. Blizzard has no reason to change their behavior until they've been hit in the pocketbook.
Re:I've been following this... (Score:4, Informative)
If you for some stupid reason sign a document the plumber presents you with that says he is allowed to unlock your filing cabinets, look through your financial documents, copy what he wants, and report that to his employer or the government, then yes, he's allowed to do that.
It's very clear in the agreement. The agreement that you have to read (or at least scroll the bar all the way to the bottom of) every time there is a patch (every month or so) with only one section in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS that spells out exactly what this program is going to do.
Re:I've been following this... (Score:2)
Re:I've been following this... (Score:2)
what can you do?
Run your cheats on another program. Any stubs that it requires on your current computer can be implemented as system processes that WoW can't read anyway.
Re:I've been following this... (Score:4, Insightful)
Do you want to play a fair game and a have a good time, or will tin foil hats get the best of you because you feel like you have big secrets to hide from the world?
** Yes, I realize that a number of those claims can be well founed, but a lot of it is just paranoia.
Re:I've been following this... (Score:2)
Re:I've been following this... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I've been following this... (Score:3, Insightful)
nothing new (Score:5, Informative)
Re:nothing new (Score:2)
Re:nothing new (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:nothing new (Score:2)
Blizzard's code doesn't cause any damage. Other companies have shown that this is needed, and is not malicious. Yes, they should have disclosed it, but that's their only failure.
Even the techie guys on the podcasts are getting ruff
Re:nothing new (Score:4, Insightful)
Under whose radar? Blizzard announced that they were going to be doing this near the beginning of this year, and they've been reasonably upfront about it. There have been multiple forum postings as well.
IF they want to prevent cheating, watch for behaviour patterns
They do that as well. But, funny thing, guess which is more effective?
And, frankly, the amount of whining and tin foil hat complaining going on over this is just ridiculous. They do not expose any private data at any point in time. The sniffing occurs only while you are playing the game, it does not negatively impact any other programs, all "gathered" data is hashed and compared purely on the client side, and only if the hashed data matches a list of "known bad" hashes is an indicator (again, only an indicator -- not the raw, unhashed data) sent back to Blizzard.
If you want to complain, then complain about the possibility of false positives. Hash functions, by their very nature, do not ensure uniqueness. Multiple values will hash to the same value. I haven't seen a technical discussion of the hashing function, so it may be exceptionally rare, but it's still possible.
And no, I don't play WoW or any other Blizzard game at this time. And I'm not a fanboy. I'm just tired of people blowing this out of proportion -- it just dilutes the response against real privacy/security threats.
Pertinent quote from "Terms of Use" (Score:5, Informative)
From Terms of Use:
=================
In order to assist Blizzard Entertainment to police users who may use "hacks," or "cheats" to gain an advantage over other players, you acknowledge that Blizzard Entertainment shall have the right to obtain certain information from your computer and its component parts, including your computer's random access memory, video card, central processing unit, and storage devices. This information will only be used for the purpose of identifying "cheaters," and for no other reason
=================
So they can look at anything in RAM, or even your hard drive. And you agree to this. As other posters note, you can either not play, or not run other apps, since they don't seem to scan your drives.
I, for one, think Blizzard is doing something positive here, and the complainers are probably cheaters or farmers -- or non-players. Cheating ruins the experience for honest customers.
Re:Pertinent quote from "Terms of Use" (Score:3, Insightful)
That is, if you want them to be more important.
Much Like GameGuard .... (Score:5, Interesting)
GameGuard [wikibooks.org] used by NCSoft in Lineage2 [lineage2.com] is very similiar when it seems to create more problems then it solves.
In fact GameGuard does not block one single hack I know of for Lineage .....
Re:Much Like GameGuard .... (Score:2)
And there is absolutely a solid need for anti-hack programs like this. When you can hook into the DirectX .dll's to provide easy wall-hacking to games, that's a problem. When you can otherwise get in between .dll's or execute code in the game's process, then that causes Counterstrike to become a huge haven for script kiddies. Yes, you own your computer, and we don't Microsoft's Next-Generation Secure Computing Base to lock you of your own compu
The Warden? (Score:5, Funny)
Why is BBC telling the world about my girlfriend..
Re:The Warden? (Score:2)
Your girlfriend probes you all over?
Wow. It takes all kinds, I guess.
Waaaah (Score:5, Funny)
Waaaah!
Blizzard sucks because they prevent cheating in World of Warcraft!
Waaaah!
Re:Waaaah (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Waaaah (Score:2)
Torn.. (Score:5, Interesting)
There are already some big problems with ebay gold farmers.. I'd rather they had to sit at the computer to make their gold, rather than just running a script.
Re:Torn.. (Score:2)
You mean, you'd rather have had them pay a pittance to a room full of workers than just running a script.
Fix the core problem(s) (Score:3, Interesting)
That's the crap that makes MMORPGs boring and prone t
As a player .. (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh for pitty's sake. (Score:5, Interesting)
Consider the source.
Re:Oh for pitty's sake. (Score:3, Interesting)
I've played a few MMO games, and many of them are very repetitive. I myself have considered trying to write some macroing programs, because hey, I'm paying for the time, and I believe in automation. :) Besides, trying to write something to automate such a complicated game system as most MMOs provide
Re:Oh for pitty's sake. (Score:5, Insightful)
You agree not to cheat. Then you cheat anyway. What's not immoral about that?
Re:Oh for pitty's sake. (Score:3, Interesting)
But, this software also keeps hacks, cheats and duping programs at bay. Those are the true things that ruin games such as diablo 2. You can macro all day an
Why I don't support the EFF (Score:2, Insightful)
You've missed the point (Score:2)
The software in question checks a lot of things, none of which are known to the user. From TFA:
I watched the warden sniff down the email addresses of people I was communicating with on MSN, the URL of several websites that I had open at the time, and the names of all my running programs, including those that were minimized or in the toolbar.
Now, if this thing told you up front that it was doing all of this, it would be simply an anti-cheating program. But it doesn't. It does all of this without not
Re:You've missed the point (Score:2)
Therefore, it is spying on you actions without your knowledge. Software + spying = spyware."
For it to be spying, it would need to be dialing home with your info info. Which it doesn't. Furthermore, it is not without your knowledge... or it shouldn't be, if you read and understood the EULA, which you indicated that you had when you installed the game.
Re:You've missed the point (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, I actually don't play the game so I haven't read the EULA. But I really have to wonder - does the EULA mention all the screwy stuff that this client checks? I'm guessing not since someone had to disassemble the sucker to find out what all this thing does.
Mind you, I'm not against it at face value. I just think that consumers should be able to make informed decisions. If the EULA says the client software will probe your IM and figure out your friend's email addresses and you install anyway, then
Re:Why I don't support the EFF (Score:2)
And that's the crux of the problem. The EFF's point is that the software is snuck in under the radar -the user is prevented from making that choice. All that's needed is for Blizzard to be up-front with what they're doing. Let the user decide.
Only problem here... (Score:2, Redundant)
"the warden" is a misnomer (Score:2)
Either way, F that. Either the software makers tells me exactly what the hell they're doing within very well-defined boundaries, or their anti-cheat code never gets installed. So what's allowable? Watch the gameplay for typical cheats/exploits? Yeah, sure. Take snapshots of the video buffer? Yeah, for the game window. Snapshot
Once money enters the game... (Score:2)
The Warden for Mac? (Score:2, Interesting)
When will "The Warden" get released for my iMac?
Actually, in all seriousness, I assume this is built into the Mac version as well? Overall, I don't care. I'm glad there's no (less?) cheating and I don't run anything else when I play anyhow.
Spilt milk, but make some cheese from it (Score:4, Insightful)
Didn't read the license agreement? Sorry, but that's not Blizzard's problem. It would be nice if Blizzard had made it more obvious that they would be doing this.
But you know what? Tough titties, you agreed to it.
That said, it's good that people are drawing attention to this -- maybe next time around, Blizzard will be faced with losing revenue should they try to implement the same kind of solution.
What MMORPGs need to do is implement better server-side analysis to identify cheaters. Difficult? Yes. Expensive? Yes. But probably less difficult and less expensive that losing craploads of clients, and hiring craploads of lawyers. Then they won't need to have the invasion clause in the license for their games.
Spread the word, and maybe we won't have to deal with this next time.
Re:Spilt milk, but make some cheese from it (Score:2)
But you know what? Tough titties, you agreed to it.
And that's exactly how the majority of spyware out there gets installed. Is it OK for Blizzard, but not OK for a P2P or web utility company to do?
Re:Spilt milk, but make some cheese from it (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, it may raise revenue because I, for one, like the idea. It's not real spyware and it's keeping some script kiddies from twinking. That's fine in my book and frankly I'd feel better about playing a game where the attitude of the host(s) was more "we keep a level playing field for our users" then the "we got your cash now,
Re:Spilt milk, but make some cheese from it (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm sure that there are lots of things that Blizzard does server side to detect cheating. The problem is, their view of cheating is broad enough that it cannot be completely detected server side.
Re:Spilt milk, but make some cheese from it (Score:2)
Not spyware, but there is a reason this won't die (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, it does scan window titles, and yes, coincidentally, those window titles may contain URLs or e-mail addresses. But Warden only works with hashes of those strings and doesn't phone them home. The paranoid can easily close other windows while running WoW (or, for that matter, uninstall), but the majority of the game-playing public wants anti-cheat measures in place.
Note that this anti-Warden crusade is perpetrated by people who will benefit financially if Blizzard is humiliated into discontinuing the use of Warden. The folks over at WoW!Sharp, the most well-known cheating/botting program for WoW, were selling subscriptions to their software, right up to the point where Warden caught them using their cheat software and led to them being banned. They realized that if they continued selling subscriptions to their software, they could be sued, so they released it as open-source, essentially to shove the problem of liability off onto their users.
If Warden were discontinued, they would, quite literally, be back in business.
Re:Not spyware, but there is a reason this won't d (Score:2)
Warden strategy: hash window titles.
Defeated by randomizing the window title.
Warden strategy: hash running processes' file image.
Defeated by modifying the executable during launch.
Seriously, assuming blizzard is unwilling to demand that all running processes be terminated before play, how can they possibly expect to beat the cheaters. Frankly, I don't understand why the cheaters don't just try about 10% harder, they'd be unbeatable.
Re:Not spyware, but there is a reason this won't d (Score:2)
Re:Not spyware, but there is a reason this won't d (Score:2)
Don't you know that this is Slashdot, everyone has to go off half-cocked and just condemn Blizzard for trying to stop anything like cheating.
Next you'll hear that some of the authors of the cheat codes put the code into open-source, so that Slashdot will have a headline "Blizzard against open source!"
This is Slashdot dude...don't try to explain things to these idiots because they've already made up their mind and their minds say "Blizzard Bad! Bad Blizzard!".
Re:Not spyware, but there is a reason this won't d (Score:5, Informative)
2. No, Warden only runs while WoW is running.
3. Yes. There is a default version of Warden that is part of the patched version of the game. When you run WoW, Blizzard can push another version of Warden to your machine that exists in memory only while you are playing the game. When you uninstall WoW, the basic Warden software is deleted along with it.
4. You can still use a proxy to monitor what data is sent across the connection, and such a proxy (as long as it doesn't try to alter any data) is pretty much undetectable. Blizzard has made general statements about their monitoring, but they haven't given any specifics on what is transmitted. The cheat authors, however, have been fairly verbose about what Warden does. (See http://www.wowsharp.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=70
5. Hard to say. Warden is polymorphic, and a new version can be pushed from the server at arbitrary times while you play, so it's fairly slippery. It's tough enough to beat that the WoW!Sharp developers decided that continued development and sales of their software was too risky, after they got caught. I suspect that Warden faces the same set of challenges that virus scanning programs face. At the same time, the cheat authors, because their game accounts are on the line when they test their software, could potentially get socked for $50 every time they get caught - and while a little cheating here or there doesn't damage the game too much, Blizzard only has to nail the cheat developers once in order to ban them. (And Blizzard can always take extra steps to try to prevent them from resubscribing.)
Doesn't that violate EULA? (Score:2)
Hyperbole (Score:5, Insightful)
Since when would a site submit a URL in the title? I assume this is for sites which don't have a <TITLE> tag, and just display the URL as the title. Even in that case, any website that submits a document with such information in the GET string is asking for trouble. It would allow it, among other things, to be viewed in the document history etc.
We need to stop jumping every perceived violation. There seems to be a witch-hunt on for privacy/security violators, and often the assumptions of what 'could' create a security risk falls into the realm of pretty silly...
Holy Grail 2 (Score:5, Insightful)
A cheater-robot gets caught because it plays a game better than any human could... right? So then, the real challenge for a human player is to be mistaken for a machine... a kind-of reverse Turing test...
Re:Not much of a challenge at all (Score:3, Insightful)
I take your point. But people are easy to fool. The irony (re the Turing reversal) is to get a machine to think you're a machine.
Why no bots? (Score:2)
Stupid stupid Blizzard (Score:2)
Re:Stupid stupid Blizzard (Score:2)
NEVER trust the user input (Score:4, Insightful)
Just as you can hack some javascript to prevent validation, what makes them think we can't run some remote control software whose client happens to run on... *GASP* your own machine!
But what are they gonna do next? Introduce captchas into the game every 5 minutes?
No, sir. The answer is changing THE GAME RULES (the equivalent of validating user input in the server, not the client) so that quick advancement is not done. i.e. restrict repetitive training to N hours, and such.
Trying to control the client is nonsense.
Here's the problem (Score:3)
You can see this in old games like QuakeWorld. Your client does very little other than render the graphics, it
Paranoia (Score:5, Insightful)
Mr. Hoglund is an idiot.
lol CC # in title bar?? (Score:2, Interesting)
are you joking me? sure title bars COULD contain that data, but i think anyone here would be hard pressed to find an actual example of that happening.
if some company website or program is too ignorant to keep a CC or SSN off the title bar, they probably have a lot more problems on their hands.
ALSO, is it just me or is the EFF going a little nuts here? i'm a firm believer in fre
Create a World for Hacks (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Not Again (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Not Again (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Not Again (Score:2, Informative)
A legit reason for a credit card is to make it harder for someone to just continue to get free trials by utilizing different e-mail accounts.
Re:Not Again (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Not Again (Score:5, Insightful)
I have a hard and fast rule -- if I'm not actually paying you any money, I'm not providing you with sufficient information to subsequently bill me.
I absolutely will not provide CC information to use a 'free' trial. I also typically refuse to allow people to take moneys out of my accounts in the future without my interaction. You may send me an invoice. You may not just decide to take what you need.
But, I'm probably being unrealistic. Nobody would ever misuse that, right?
Re:Not Again (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Not Again (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.simon.com/giftcard [simon.com]
(Disposable Visa cards) Used them for years with no problems, and they'll mail you the card if you can't go pick one up.
Just google on "Visa Gift Card" and you'll find any number of others doing the same.
Re:Not Again (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Not Again (Score:5, Insightful)
The current top anti cheat for medal of honor allied assault is a third party program that makes the warden look like a freaking panzy on what it does.
It checks memory to verify there are no spyware signatures, verifies all files before they run, locks the files, runs its own explorer shell so that a person cant alt tab and run things. The game can only be executed within the context of the anti cheat software, the hardware is checked to make a key that can be bannable even if the person re-installs or reformats.
It locks the memory of itself, and the MOHAA software.
Even at that point it isnt good enough, it also launches two other executables with similar protections built in that check each other to make sure that none of the executables is being shut down or altered by an outside program.
People have to agree with this, because nothing else works, if you slip in one area, they write a cheat to exploit it. You slip in another area you get a cheat in another area. If you dont validate all files, even files with odd extensions, they write a kernal thingy that goes around it.
Cheaters have too many dedicated fucktards trying to ruin the games for everyone else.
When you sign up for World OF WarCraft, or use another type of anti cheat, you are saying that you agree to this kind of thing because you want to participate.
In sports, umpires can watch the players and make sure that they arent cheating, in on-line games the umpires have to get right on the computer. AS LONG as those people only use information required to successfully stop a cheater (IE they arent going in and finding out what programs you have installed in your registry and uploading your outlook e-mail book etc...) then what is their to complain about?
All of the stuff where it scans the URL of web sites, and views peoples MSn etc.. thats all tertiary to what its doing. It is scanning those because it is showing up as open windows processes, there is nothing for the anti cheat program to use to determine that the open windows ARENT cheats, until it checks there names to see if it matches the signature.
I dont think people realize just how clever cheaters can be. One of the cheats turned in for MOHAA involved using a bug with MSN and video drivers for ATI. If a notification was up, you could see through the walls!
Then people wonder at the lengths anti cheat software is beggining to take.
Re:Not Again (Score:3, Informative)
Re:ummm..ok (Score:2)
Re:ummm..ok (Score:5, Insightful)
The difference is that you have the right to private property, WoW has the right to deny you access to THEIR private property based on their own criteria. If this you feel this criteria is too invasive then, by all means, do not use their software/services.
This is like drug testing, you have the right to choose not to work for an employeer that does drug testing, you do not have the right to change their policy on drug testing.
Re:ummm..ok (Score:4, Insightful)
Should I be expected to forfeit my original $50 and a years worth of subscription fees because they changed the terms?
What - did you suddenly lose the years worth of gameplay you already experianced? Do you call up HBO when they cancel a show you liked and demand a refund from the moment you subscribed with them?
I mean, you can stop playing the game! And stop paying for it.
I would hope people understand that subscription based games are going to be like any subscription service rather than like the old single player CD based games which were like books (sort of).
Of course, this among other issues is exactly why I have yet to buy or play a MMORPG.
Re:ummm..ok (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:ummm..ok (Score:2)
But flying is NOT a public service, these are private companies that have the right to ensure the safty of their passengers as they see fit. Hell, it doesn't even have to be for the reason of safty, as a business owner you could make any reason short of racial/sexual/religious bias to bar someone from flying i
Re:ummm..ok (Score:3, Insightful)
No, I wouldn't say that's a good thing - but the rules are different out here. In the US the citizenry is guaranteed a certain measure of privacy and protection from egregious law enforcement by way of the Constitution. We have Amendments that protect agains
Re:ummm..ok (Score:3, Interesting)
This is a stupid, specious argument. If we were talking about something running on their servers, then you would have a point. However, we're talking about software
Re:ummm..ok (Score:4, Funny)
damn right i am! they have a very quick flash heal/regen spell and also can turn into beast form which will rival a warriors tanking. not to mention the very annoying "root" spell. i dont even think you can blink out of root anymore. savages...
i think i speak for everyone when i say nerf teh druids!
Re:Sources (Score:2)
Re:Sources (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Sources (Score:2, Funny)
Why is it that almost more and more news items on slashdot are derived from the BBC?
Pfff, that's typical Slashdot Euro-centrism for you. Why are all of us North Americans constantly pushed to the side? Please, submitters, you must realize that the Internet != Britain.
Re:The Warden... (Score:2)