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CND Government Demands Widespread Tap Access 223

Posted by Zonk from the keeping-up-with-the-times-indeed dept.
north_of_49 wrote to mention a Globe and Mail article stating that the Canadian government is seeking the ability to conduct surveillance on the communications of its citizenry. From the article: "The major boost in interception capacity is in proposals the government has put forward in confidential negotiations with the telecom industry as it prepares new legislation on high-tech wiretapping scheduled to be introduced next month. Government officials insist their proposals will bring Canada's laws on wiretaps -- drafted when people still attached alligator clips to telephone lines to listen in -- up to speed with new technologies. But privacy advocates fear an erosion of safeguards, and telecom companies worry the government wants them to build in a costly interception system."
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CND Government Demands Widespread Tap Access More

CND Government Demands Widespread Tap Access

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  • Shortform of Canada (Score:5, Informative)

    by HeyBob! ( 111243 ) on Tuesday October 11, 2005 @12:56PM (#13766550)
    is CDN - Thanks!

  • CND? (Score:3, Funny)

    by hylandar ( 652973 ) on Tuesday October 11, 2005 @12:58PM (#13766564)
    CAN or CDN are accepted shortforms for Canada. I know anyone could miss Canada. All tucked away down there

  • Hurrah, Socaialism! (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Three cheers for big government and reduced citizens' rights! Hip-hip HUZZAH...

    • Re:Hurrah, Socaialism! (Score:4, Funny)

      by RLiegh ( 247921 ) * on Tuesday October 11, 2005 @01:20PM (#13766745) Homepage Journal
      Three cheers for big government and reduced citizens' rights! Hip-hip HUZZAH...


      Thank god I live in the US, where our government would never interfere with our privacy (or other) rights.
    • Keep voting Liberals! They're not scary!

  • Should be a fun charter challenge (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 11, 2005 @12:59PM (#13766577)
    I'm pretty sure somehthing like this would violate the Charter of Rights.

    Fortunately laws like this are only good for 5 years until a new government has to pass another exception to the charter (charter exceptions are only good for 5 years, no more, and must be passed repeatedly by all new successive governments for the law to stay on the books).

    Specifically, this violates section 8 of the charter [justice.gc.ca]:


    8. Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure.
    • I see no mention of electronic communications in the charter. Is there any precedent that a tap constitutes a search?
    • Down here in the Land of the Free (Beer), all we have is a Supreme Court that pushes back the definition of "unreasonable."

    • Re:Should be a fun charter challenge (Score:4, Informative)

      by sedyn ( 880034 ) on Tuesday October 11, 2005 @01:36PM (#13766884)
      FTA: "Ms. McLellan noted that law-enforcement officials will still have to obtain a warrant from a judge to intercept e-mail or Internet transmissions, as they always have with telephone wiretaps."

      Therefore, people are not being searched unreasonably, meaning this won't be challenged. Having the capacity to do something and actually doing it are two different things.
    • I'm pretty sure somehthing like this would violate the Charter of Rights.

      Notwithstanding [universal human rights and all other laws of the country]...

      We were better protected before the compromised charter was written.

  • the real agenda (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 11, 2005 @01:00PM (#13766583)
    A comment made by someone at the bottom of the article:

    The real purpose is to give the Recording Industry access to people who trade music files.

    Correct.
    • I read the comment and found it completely illogical. How is the lawful access provision going to give a third party, non-governmental agency access to private information when the courts have refused to do so? The lawful access legislation is simply an attempt to move cellular and internet communications into the telephone wiretap section of the Criminal Code of Canada. The same legal standards that apply to telephone wiretaps (judicial oversight, etc.) will apply to email and the internet. The CRIA tried

  • Privacy, Schmivacy (Score:3, Informative)

    by JoshDM ( 741866 ) on Tuesday October 11, 2005 @01:01PM (#13766596) Homepage Journal
    Look, the ability is currently NOT THERE. This is a request to put the ability to listen properly into place. That doesn't mean that every conversation is going to be tracked; they want the ability to there in the event that it's needed. Funding a listening program is going to likely be a separate concern. Northern Paranoids can relax for now; Big Maple Leaf Brother isn't going to be listening into your pseudo-French/English conversations about hockey, you hoser.

  • Great... (Score:3, Funny)

    by MaceyHW ( 832021 ) <`maceyhw' `at' `gmail.com'> on Tuesday October 11, 2005 @01:02PM (#13766601)
    Now where am I supposed to flee to when things go south in the US.
    • Now where am I supposed to flee to when things go south in the US.
      When things go south??
    • Having seen a lot of Canadian tv in college, you may be able to seek asylum at Fred Penner's Place. You just have to find that log to crawl through.
    • Now where am I supposed to flee to when things go south in the US.

      Further south, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina?

  • That's it (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 11, 2005 @01:02PM (#13766605)
    I'm packing my bags and moving to -- oh sh*t!
    • I'm packing my bags and moving to -- oh sh*t!

      *ahem...puts on movie commercial voice*

      "There's nowhere to run. There's nowhere to hide. Coming to a government near you, Widespread Tap Access! In lawbooks winter 2005."

  • Who's going to bomb Canada anyway? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by teutonic_leech ( 596265 ) on Tuesday October 11, 2005 @01:03PM (#13766614)
    Okay, it's a joke, and I know that a large part of the Canadian population lives in urban areas - BUT, having said that: why would a country like Canada resort to such drastic measures? To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, 'Who would give up liberty to gain security deserves neither liberty nor security.' I live here in the U.S. and am disgusted by all the increasing trickle of loss in civil liberties. One of these days we're going to wake up and it's Big Brother - we're really getting dangerously close. If Bin Laden wanted to destroy our 'way of living' - well, I hate to say that he already succeeded. Michael
    • Shuttup and think of the children.
      Thoughtcrime will be punished.

    • Re:Who's going to bomb Canada anyway? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by darkCanuck ( 751748 ) on Tuesday October 11, 2005 @01:21PM (#13766752)

      More than likely this is the result of American pressure. Many laws up here are at least brought to the table as a direct result of American government or industry.

      Canada definitely has less enemies of state than the U.S. but that doesn't make us much less at risk. Particularly because between Epcor, Hydro Québec and Hydro One, Canada supplies a *huge* amount of power to the United States, disruption of which causes a lot of panic and economic souring - token objectives of terrorists.

      • Good points, but the point I am making is that we are both living in countries that have the nasty habit of meddling in the affairs of oil producing countries. That leads to a lot of enemies among the impoverished population of those nations, which in turn tends to result in terrorism, particularly when mixed with fanatic religious beliefs. Or in other words: Here we are signing away our civil liberties piece by piece whilst filling up our HUM-Vs and SUVs at the pump. We 'should' be leading a national movem
        • "and finally put more money and thought into alternative energies (and I am talking about the entire gamut here - cold fusion, wind power, ocean power, limited nuclear power, solar power, etc..)"

          Man you actually had a cogent point working there...

          Most oil isn't used to produce electrical power. Our reliance on oil stems from the need for fuel, and the byproducts of petroleum which are in, well, just about everything.

          The options you are suggesting we invest in are great, but do nothing to solve the car prob
        • we are both living in countries that have the nasty habit of meddling in the affairs of oil producing countries.

          Umm... How does Canada meddle in the affairs of oil-producing countries?

        • This doesn't touch on the point that oil is a finite non-renewable resource, but unlike the US, Canada produces more oil than it consumes [www.capp.ca]. This means that Canada is, in the short term, not only self-sustainable, but can also sell off surplus energy (also in the form of surplus HydroElectric energy from Quebec, Ontario, and BC, and Nuclear energy from Ontario).

          Canada tends to meddle in the affairs of oil producing countries a) as a peace-keeper, after someone else has gone in and upheaved the local politi

        • "Good points, but the point I am making is that we are both living in countries that have the nasty habit of meddling in the affairs of oil producing countries. That leads to a lot of enemies among the impoverished population of those nations"

          I wouldn't call the population of Saudi Arabia "impoverished".

      • Not at all (Score:3, Informative)

        by temojen ( 678985 )
        It was the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police.

        Very few others have been allowed to speak before the committee.
      • More than likely this is the result of American pressure. Many laws up here are at least brought to the table as a direct result of American government or industry

        Was wondering how long it would take to blame this on the U.S. As if companies and individuals in other countries could never come up with something like this on their own and would never even consider it if the U.S. wasn't pressuring them.
      • "why would a country like Canada resort to such drastic measures? To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, 'Who would give up liberty to gain security deserves neither liberty nor security.'"

        This isn't about terrorism, although it is about a criminal organization: the MPAA and RIAA.
        So it is American pressure bringing this law down, but it's snuck into a Copyright Act bill, C-60 I think.

        The real reason isn't to fight terrorism, it's to give corporations information about private citizens so that they can sue them in
    • One of these days we're going to wake up and it's Big Brother - we're really getting dangerously close.
      • The feds have the ability to make laws without it being known.
      • The feds can tap any phone, internet, cell phone or voip connection as long as they have a terrorists charge. To obtain a warrent for this is trivial.
      • The feds have the ability to go to any business and get any data that they want. If you squel, you go to prison.
      • The feds can look at any library (including grade schools, high schools, univers

      • Re:Wake up call. (Score:3, Insightful)

        by ifwm ( 687373 )
        "Nice thing about that, is the feds can declare such, and only a very small percentage of ppl (with access to the right equipment) can confirm or deny it."

        Bullshit. Anyone with the right information (which is freely available) and access to a university Biology lab can verify it. THOUSANDS of people.

        Stop lying, you're embarassing yourself.
        • Bullshit. Anyone with the right information (which is freely available) and access to a university Biology lab can verify it. THOUSANDS of people.

          Thousands?

          First off, in a typical MicroBio dept, there are loads of set-up for Bacteria. That is simply setting up a plate.

          Growing a virus is a different matter. You need to have cell lines in which to grow it in. Worse, you need the correct cell lines as well as the info for growing them. My guess is that there are probably about 1000 in the entire world who k

          • "So, not only have you shown your self to be an idiot, but you are showing exactly why America is in the situation that it is; With an idiot at the helm, and more defending his actions."

            You made a patently false claim abot a subject of which you're clearly ignorant .

            The procedure for identifying avian flu has been around for nearly 50 years.

            Do you understand that?

            "In America, there are probably less than 100 who have direct experience with it"

            Do you understand that anyone who makes it past intro level Bio c
            • If you knew who I was, you could find my name on several papers related to VEE and Dengue from the early 80's. I grew and sequenced VEE/WEE/Dengue/West Nile. In fact, we used PCR to increase the quantities. I worked at the CDC in Ft. Collins. I know exactly what is involved in growing virus. Obviously you ( and the earlier moder of you) have absolutely no clue what it takes to grow the virus, or to detect it. Sadly, people like you spread more foolishness than solve things. I recommend that you consider tak
        • > THOUSANDS of people.

          Let's recap stats 101:

          25,000 / 250,000,00 = 0.0001, i.e. 0.01%

          Sure looks like a small percentage to me.
      • Time to load up on ammo and head for the shack in Montana.

  • Awww, how cute. (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 11, 2005 @01:04PM (#13766617)
    Awww, how cute, America Junior is trying to be like it's big brother...

  • The Second Comment (Score:5, Insightful)

    by gid13 ( 620803 ) on Tuesday October 11, 2005 @01:04PM (#13766621)
    The second comment on the article says it all:

    "Criminals and terrorists can easily bypass these measures using
    encryption, stegonography, etc. The real purpose is to give the
    Recording Industry access to people who trade music files. Anne
    McLellan has been working with them on this for a couple of years. For
    the sake of the greed of a few huge music corporations they're taking
    up the tools of the Police State. Political surveillance is a heartbeat
    away from this.You are the target. "

    Nice.
    • How many times do we have to go through this?

      Lots of police practices can be circumvented in some way (eg. wearing gloves when you kill someone, saying "no, you can't enter my house without a warrant, officer", not using the phone when setting up murder-for-hire, encyrpting their hard drive and not writing the password under the mousepad, etc etc), but some (large) percentage of the population is stupid and make it easy for cops to solve crimes (eg. see any cops TV show). What's the problem with this?

      I

      • " but some (large) percentage of the population is stupid and make it easy for cops to solve crimes"

        Double-edged sword. If they're that stupid, why does law enforcement need these new measures to begin with?
        • Most people don't go running down the street shouting that they committed a crime. If a criminal does only one really stupid thing while commiting a crime, what's wrong with admitting that one thing as evidence?

          (again, I'm saying that merely arguing that something will be circumvented <50% of the time is silly... but that arguing that something is easily abused by police is good)

          For instance, analog scramblers [wikipedia.org] have existed for a while, but their existance doesn't negate the usefulness of being able

      • *sigh* We have to go over it until you get it.

        Yes, some large percentage of the population is stupid, but this law is advertised as a tool to fight foreign terrorism. Foreign terrorists, by definition, are smart enough to organize themselves enough to get into another country. They do not flip open their cell-phones and say "Hey Joe, let's blow something up this weekend." Any e-mail will be either encrypted or innocuous.

        As you point out, this law is obviously designed to catch the stupid or the average.
    • This is why I don't download music. It might be a convenient way to get it, and even though it's currently legal in Canada (uploading is not), it just doesn't seem worth the hassle or worry.

      I can get any music I want through our fair-use laws. Borrow the original CD from someone (friend, relative, library) and rip it for personal use. Nobody can touch me then.

      I might not be able to share the copies, but I do share my originals.

  • Chinese connection? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 11, 2005 @01:06PM (#13766637)
    Perhaps it has something to do with the recent finding that China has more spies in Canada than in any other nation [janes.com]? The government can't be too happy about that - they may be feeling they've been too lax.

  • WIRETAPS IN CANADA??? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 11, 2005 @01:07PM (#13766644)
    Come on!!! CANADA???

    Exactly what kind of crime do they have to deal with in Canada?

    Maple Syrup Trafficing?

  • Straining at gnats (Score:3, Informative)

    by RealProgrammer ( 723725 ) on Tuesday October 11, 2005 @01:23PM (#13766765) Homepage Journal
    Governments always seem to load up their shotgun and miss the wrong target. They stumble on a solution to a problem, and don't ever question whether that's a problem they really should be solving or if the solution will actually work.

    For the anti-terror ops, knowing who talks to whom is important, and can lead to fairly detailed knowledge of the workings of an organization. The contents of the conversations are in many ways less important, since it takes a real idiot to spill details over the phone. They are also labor-intensive, since you have to wait a long time between calls and then work hard to decipher exactly what's said.

    A wiretap could reveal that two guys are "ready to go for the big trip this weekend", leading jackbooted thugs to sweep in and prevent the crime. Later the perps claim those rifles, hip waders and fishing rods in the trunk are there because they were going camping.

    Wiretaps are for old people.

    There are some bigger holes in the protection of the Canadian people:

    Canada has gillions of miles of uncontrolled coastline.

    Canada has thousands of miles of open border with the US. And we're armed!

    There is this little fad called the Internet (and encrypted communications) that reached Canada a few years back. Like in 1975.

    • Governments always seem to load up their shotgun and miss the wrong target. They stumble on a solution to a problem, and don't ever question whether that's a problem they really should be solving or if the solution will actually work.

      Sir Humphreys! Beautiful! Who's the lucky minister to have you writing for them now??

      Blockwars [blockwars.com]: free, multiplayer, head to head game.

  • What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Marcion ( 876801 ) on Tuesday October 11, 2005 @01:26PM (#13766792) Homepage Journal
    Lets make a law saying that all our elected officials are required to have a live webcam feed 24/7/365 from their offices, cars and houses.

    In this most democratic form of the 'Big Brother show', we would be able to hold our elected officials directly accountable. We would see what lobbyists are met, how long a lunch break they take, how ethically they shop, if they are really recycling and so on.
  • Canada... Canada... Hmmm...

    Is that they country that officially sanctioned a talking dog puppet? Because the talking dog puppet said something that hurt their feelings?

    Related Link [wikipedia.org]

    I tease. :)

    But seriously, I support any Draconian law that makes countries (other than the USA) even more fascist because it's, like, really funny. :D Sorry, but I *am* a misanthrope.

    Or were you talking about the guy from Akira? No, that was Kaneda. Never mind.

    • Actually I believe the complaint was that Triumph the insult Dog was a direct rip off of Ed the Sock.

      Ed the Sock has been one of the funniest characters on TV for years.

      As for Canadian insulting public figures it happens quite a bit. It is a regular occurance for politicians to end up on comedy shows with self mocking skits.

  • Is that new in Canada? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by pe1chl ( 90186 ) on Tuesday October 11, 2005 @01:34PM (#13766867)
    You may think that the Netherlands is a free country, but we have had laws like that for years here.
    Every company providing public communication has to be able to tap all traffic on demand. This not only includes fixed telephone lines, but also mobile (including location of the mobile set), Internet, etc.

    The number of active taps per capita here is amongst the highest in the world. And the consumer is paying for all this, as the cost compensation given to the companies is not nearly covering the real cost of making these taps.

    Furthermore, tapping is addictive. Now that the secret service has so many taps running, they start to see that it would be even better when everything is tapped and kept, so that after-the-crime analysis of data can be done as well.

    Current law proposals are moving in this direction. Call records, mobile position data, Internet logs etc have to be kept longer and be made available on request.
    This is of course only an intermediate step. Once this is implemented, it is found that even more information could be gained from the actual traffic, and the next requirement is to record all phone conversations and keep them for half a year. And to capture all Internet data sent to and from customers.

    Worst of all is that we are part of the EU. Politicians abuse the EU for a kind of ping-pong game where they first draft up some idiotic idea, then discuss it (behind closed doors) with fellow politicians in other EU countries, a few countries implement the same idea, and then they report back in their own country that the new laws have to be passed for harmonisation within the EU.

    In the first phase, any protest is waved away with "it is too early to discuss it, too early to protest, we are still drafting it and negotiating with EU partners" and then after some time (and a behind-closed-doors decision in the EU), the stance is changed to "we cannot turn this back, we are mandated by the EU to implement these laws, no need to protest because we are not making the decision".

    This nearly went wrong with software patents, and now the same risk occurs with extended tapping of all telephone and internet traffic.

    What amazes me most is that todays politicians are so easily being abused by terrorists.
    Terrorism is achieving its goals using threat, and politicians easily play their game of threat amplification. Without having to actually perform any attacks, they move the entire free world to break down their free societies and destroy all the values they were so proud of a decade ago.
    That seems like a bigger victory than blowing up some building.

  • The question you have to ask... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by TomRC ( 231027 ) on Tuesday October 11, 2005 @01:52PM (#13767024)

    The question you have to ask, is:

    Why are our governments (Canadian, US, others) so terribly afraid of their citizens?

    • Perhaps the question we should ask is: why aren't modern governments afraid enough of their own citizens to tread very, very carefully when it comes to peeking into our private affairs?

      I shouldn't, but sometimes I think wistfully of the time when a political leader who treated the people with disdain ran the risk not just of early retirement, but of being hanged to the nearest tree. I wonder whether the personal risks associated with being too arrogant in an earlier era might have wonderfully cleared the p
  • we're supposed to PAY (i.e. taxes) so the ISPs can SPY on us?

    Wow.

  • Damn Republicans (Score:3, Funny)

    by gsfprez ( 27403 ) * on Tuesday October 11, 2005 @02:01PM (#13767109)
    Its George Bush and Karl Rove's fault i tell you! Its all about the extreme right wing Republicans and their lust for power with George Bush! They're all bought off by the record executives - its a plot!

    oh wait - did you say Canada?

  • Yeah well (Score:3, Insightful)

    by spect3r ( 909619 ) on Tuesday October 11, 2005 @02:19PM (#13767269) Homepage
    If you lived here, you'd know that: A. If this is passed, our taxes will increase. Probably shown as "Access Fee". A(1). This said tax will be taxed again 7% GST. B. The Canadian Government [wikipedia.org] (defined); is capable of "passing" law, but in-capable of "enforcing" laws. Same with everything from election platform promises to general public funding. C. Oh, and... Hoser Defined I agree. It's a plot to monitor us Canadians downloading our copious amounts of Rush and Tragically Hip music. [wikipedia.org]
  • As far as understand, this will still require a court order from a judge.

    This isn't much different from what's there now-- it's just forcing ISPs to make implementing the court order easier.

    And it doesn't mean that the RCMP can just randomly wiretap your internet communications whenever they feel like it-- they still have to go see a judge first, just like if they wanted to wiretap your phone.
    • they still have to go see a judge first

      Oh goody. A judge, eh? Like how, in the old days, the bailiff would have to go see the the lord of the manor first, before he could confiscate my crop and sell my barefoot children into slavery.
  • Canada has always outlined greater powers for it's government then the U.S. We do have better checks and balances, more open and accountable government (seemingly of course /tinfoil).

    I find it insightful to consider the American motto... "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" (Which should be assumed rights everwhere and go without saying)...

    Canadian "Peace, Order, and Good Government".

    It's right there on our Clown coloured money! GOOD GOVERNMENT!

    I will bet $1000,000 that Canadian government s

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