Stallman Unimpressed by Nokia Patent Pledge 386
Joe Barr writes "NewsForge is running a commentary by Richard Stallman on the recent PR blitz by Nokia concerning their promise not to enforce patent claims against the Linux kernel project. Stallman's take? "In effect, Nokia is lobbying the European Union to give Nokia and many others a new kind of weapon to shoot at software authors and users with--and telling the legislators, 'Don't worry, it's safe to let private armies carry these guns, because we promise that our gunmen won't shoot anyone in that building.'""
Nokia Offers Patents to Linux Kernel (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20050530
Yeah.. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Yeah.. (Score:5, Funny)
Wow (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Wow (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Yeah.. (Score:4, Funny)
Stallman......Unimpressed ? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Stallman......Unimpressed ? (Score:2)
when did we ever hear on Slashdot of Stallman being pleased.
In this case, do shoot the messenger.
Re:Stallman......Unimpressed ? (Score:2, Interesting)
when did we ever hear of Stallman being pleased.
Off the top of my head: "I am very pleased to see that Qt is now available under the GPL," said Stallman. "This is a big win for free software and a great gift from Trolltech to the community." [linuxdevices.com]
I think it's important to point out that, historically, the way things tend to go is:
Re:Stallman......Unimpressed ? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is probably more of a result of the way the media works. When do Slashdot publish writeups on Stallman? When he complains about something. Almost everyone who get attention are either complaining or some kind of entertainment superstar.
For all we know, Richard Stallman might be sitting on a chair enjoying life ninety-nine out of a hundred days.
On a more serious note: There is a rather grave difference between being pleased personally, and being pleased professionally. Stallman is professionally known to be a man of great demands and little compromise. It's probably because the wrong questions are asked that we never hear about him being pleased. Personally, I think he's quite a pleased guy.
The next news items... (Score:2)
"Stallman very pleased with his dinner"
"Stallman took a crap"
"Stallman very pleased with his love life"
(Okay, the last one is newsworthy)
Re:Stallman......Unimpressed ? (Score:2)
Re:Stallman......Unimpressed ? (Score:3, Interesting)
Google for it yourself, and check back without
What the? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:What the? (Score:2)
Re:What the? (Score:2)
bussiness (Score:5, Insightful)
2) File some patents
3) Allow open source software to use your patents
4) ???
So, if patents are a "good thing" that encourages innovation, why is nokia allowing open source (ie: anyone) to use them for free? As far as I can see, they're contradicting themselves
Re:bussiness (Score:2)
Re:bussiness (Score:2)
open source!=anyone (Score:2)
Furthermore, one can well make the argument that encouraging open source development is good for innovation, since a lot of (arguably most) innovation in the industry has first appeared in open source form.
I'm no
Re:bussiness (Score:2, Insightful)
5: PROFIT!!!
If there is anything patented by nokia in the linux kernel, then those patents became free-for-all the moment nokia started to distribute [theregister.co.uk] the linux kernel themselves. When nokia claim that any patented code in the linux kernel (which they are distributing themselves, remember) cannot be used outside an official linux kernel release, they are violating the "no further restrictions" cluse (section 6) of the GPL.
Seems to me that either there are nothing whatsoever patented b
the art of selective enforcement and rule setting (Score:5, Interesting)
On the other hand, reminds me a bit of the 'patriot' act. Oooh, don't worry, we'll only use it for the terrorists (which we now include people who disagree with the president).
Lack of enforcement is a tricky tricky thing. I've always thought that regulations should represent how things work, not the way we wish they worked. Saves this kind of doublespeak from occurring.
Re:the art of selective enforcement and rule setti (Score:2)
Yes. Imagine that [bbc.co.uk]. It would suck, wouldn't it. Whatever happened to quality of life.
[OT] South Korean speed cameras (Score:2)
I asked what this was about; they said "you learn where the cameras are".
Speed cameras == STUPID IDEA.
Unless you think burning more gas and causing accidents due to erratic driving are good ideas.
Re:[OT] South Korean speed cameras (Score:5, Informative)
Imagine, if you will, a fiendish system that records your number plate and time at the start of your journey, and records the time when you arrive at your destination. If you have done the 120 miles between London and Bristol in anything less than the time it would take at 70mph, that means you've been speeding.
Only you don't have to imagine it. It's here.
In a public Nokia statement... (Score:5, Funny)
The executive later killed himself.
Re:In a public Nokia statement... (Score:5, Insightful)
I think the community as a whole would be better served if Mr Stallman could just say, thanks Nokia for making a step in the right direction but theres a way to go yet. Provoking them pointlessly and making absolutely absurd analogies is only going to come back and bite you in the end.
Its like the US, slow to anger but watch out when they pick the big stick up cos someone is getting it royally.
Re:In a public Nokia statement... (Score:5, Insightful)
I think the community, (maybe we're talking about different communities?), is better served with Stallman pointing out how useless the Nokia announcement is. Although most of us could see it immidiately, some didn't.
Re:In a public Nokia statement... (Score:5, Insightful)
And therefore prouving RMS' point.
Re:In a public Nokia statement... (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course that doesn't mean they will leave you GNU/Linux OS alone, if they see any infringements.
In the meantime, Nokia lobbies for software patents in Europe, and RMSs analogy is exact.
They are asking for lots of power, and just claim they won't hurt the Linux kernel. Of course they won't, they don't want to alienate the developers of software that earns them money!
Wrong - The GPL forces Nokia to do this (Score:2, Insightful)
"The GPL says: "[..] if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies [..] through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program."
Nokia is it seems releasing a Linux based device. When they do that the GPL is quite clear about the patents
Re:In a public Nokia statement... (Score:2)
Its like the US, slow to anger
What?!? The first thing that most people in the world think of when the US is mentioned is ongoing military activity.
Like the war in Iraq. It was provoked by somehthing real?
Stallman's only been saying this for 20 years (Score:3, Insightful)
Why should Stallman hold his tongue? He laid out the rationale for free software [fsf.org] 20 years ago; everything he foresaw has come to pass. I'm amazed he has any patience left. At some point, there's only so much that one man can do. Sooner or later, you, I, the rest of us who write (or use) software are going to have to choose whether to stick up for those beliefs, or bend over and be screwed. To Stallman's credit, he hasn't gi
Re:In a public Nokia statement... (Score:2)
*cough*
Re:In a public Nokia statement... (Score:3, Insightful)
I think GNU and Stallman get too little credit. (Score:4, Insightful)
Torvalds began what would become the Linux kernel, but Torvalds doesn't work on every line of Linux code anymore, he hasn't for some years now. Older versions of the Linux kernel aren't under Torvalds' managerial control because he has passed on the task of maintenance to other people (such as Marcello Tosatti who took over Alax Cox's job overseeing the 2.4 version). And we musn't forget the other forks of the kernel maintained and distributed by various GNU/Linux distributions, or the private derivatives (like the variant of the Linux kernel running on my machine right now) which contain code these maintainers never see.
Torvalds gets a lot of credit for work he did not do -- even going so far as to not correct anyone who calls "Linux" an operating system, not just a kernel -- very few people bother to mention Cox, Tosatti, or other maintainers of their distribution's derivative of the Linux kernel (various people at IBM, Red Hat, Novell, Canonical, etc.). This might be a side effect of the name "Linux" itself, which serves as a reminder of Linus Torvalds.
But you would have us believe that GCC (which contains no mention of Stallman by name) should grant Stallman no credit. Interesting, that in one respect this is part of an unbroken line of attempts to deny Stallman credit for valuable work he's begun or done, but also interesting in that it denies the iterative improvements that are at the heart of human achievements in art and science. Everyone stands on someone's shoulders and I think it's a big step in the wrong direction to deny credit to someone who's work has been of such enormous value to us all.
General Stallman (Score:5, Interesting)
But Stallman is right about the other Nokia stance on European patents. They're bad, for Nokia like everyone else in the long run. They prevent Nokia from improving on innovation elsewhere. With a big company that can't take risks like small developers, Nokia benefits from unimpeded traffic in software. And as a hardware vendor, more software sells their products, with a protected base that can be protected by valid, traditional hardware patents.
Stallman's also right that Nokia's "harmless" patent guarantee is more important as propaganda to mollify the Linux community, their most dangerous opponent in the EU patent debate. We should accept their guarantee on its own merits, but not grant an inch on the meritless demands to chain innovation.
Re:General Stallman (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, they aren't bad for Nokia, or any large software company. Software patents will not stop large software companies in the list bit. When they are sued by another large software company (think Sun and IBM), they will simply sign a cross-licensing agreement.
Software patents allow Nokia, and others, to go after smaller software companies, and force them into massive lawsuits, or sell themselves to Nokia.
Effectively, software patents preserve bad business models.
Software patents will hurt Nokia too (Score:2)
True, when a big company comes into conflict with the patents of another big company, that's usually what happens.
But when a company like Nokia gets attacked by a patent profiteer, that only has a patent and doesn't make any products, then
Re:General Stallman (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:General Stallman (Score:4, Interesting)
The whole EU government structure is still forming. That's especially evident this week, as France stops their Constitution from completion. So now is the time for people to work our influence, before the system is fully defined, and the big corporations can game it privately with their inevitable political and economic bribes/threats^Winfluence. Hopefully Europeans have learned from the US disgrace the mockery of justice that results in the market when the suppliers control its rules, and the apathetic consumers are treated like bottomless holes into which to shovel crap. With any luck, Europeans will protect their rights from these IP monopolists, and those Americans working for that same justice will get a powerful ally. Or we're all doomed - as usual.
Re:General Stallman (Score:2)
Did you even read the press release??? Here is a critical quote:
Re:General Stallman (Score:2)
'And a way to warn off future inclusion of their tech in kernels, by saying "we were generous before, don't exploit your friends".'
in the post to which you replied. Did you really read my post? Until you do, there's no point debating the value of Nokia's swearing off SCO-style FUD.
Whats really interesting is at the end (Score:2, Insightful)
So its pretty safe to say then that FOSS is not exactly being swamped with patent infringment claims, no matter how massively Mr Stallman like to exaggerate the 'threat'. So his point, other than FUD is what exactly?
Re:Whats really interesting is at the end (Score:2)
Would you wait till there is someone in your house with a gun to raise the alarm, or before?
Re:Whats really interesting is at the end (Score:2)
1. Don't confuse not happening now with won't ever happen. If most FOSS projects are not being bothered now it's because they're flying under the radar, with too small a market share to either be exploitable or worth suing for damages. When that is no longer true (i.e. Linux) expect to see lots of problems.
2. There are probably a number of stories out there with little to no confirmation. Perhaps many of them are real (and many are no doubt apocryphal) but RMS
The word "threat" (Score:2)
The American administration would probably be nice enough to not to use the authoritorian powers granted to it by law unjustfully, but that does not mean a future administration will not exploit those. That's what "threat" basically means here.
of threats and loaded guns (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyone telling you they want to carry a loaded gun around just because they want to brandish it or "just because", is either lying to you or is a fool. Since decisions like this are made by lawyers, it's very unlikely they are playing the fool. That leaves only one alternative.
Companies will take their actions and determination as far as they possibly can, "to the full extent of the law" is the usual phrase used. If you give them a foot, don't expect them to stop at 10 inches just because they say they will. They have absolutely every intention of using the full foot when push comes to shove and they want something bad enough. If they had no intention of using the full foot, they wouldn't be even slightly concerned about you trying to limit them to 10 inches.
Laws are there to STOP people from taking things too far. If the law places the line anywhere besides where it belongs, the law is broken.
Patents as Weapons (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Patents as Weapons (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Patents as Weapons (Score:2)
Re:Patents as Weapons (Score:2)
Irony of patents for Nokia et al (Score:5, Insightful)
Very pro-patent. They argue that patents are all that protect them from "invasion by the Chinese". I asked the woman from Alcatel whether they used Linux. Yes. In house, for much of their development. In their boxes, it's Linux everywhere.
These companies, like Nokia, are profiting from the rising sea of open source and especially Linux, which is more and more becoming an essential ingredient of their production process.
So it's normal that they want to "protect Linux" in some way. What they still have to face, and this is what I told them, is that their precious patents will cause the demise of the open source economy, including Linux, in Europe, and hasten the advance of competitors who do not have the same patent regimes.
Indeed, patents in Europe are a threat to everyone including large vendors like Nokia, and even Microsoft, but people are so panicked that they can't see straight.
Basically the software industry has been hijacked by the patent business - the EPO burocracy and patent attorneys. These people are simple parasites and if they win this battle, they will suck the life out of the software industry.
The reason many open source projects are not being attacked today is because software patents are still settling. There are some attacks but overall the goal of patent owners is to enforce their patents against smaller commercial rivals, collect larger patent portfolios, and only attack open source projects where there is direct and immediate competition.
Business as usual in Stallmanland (Score:2)
Alan Cox (Score:3, Informative)
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=150685&cid=12
What Stallman should do instead is (Score:5, Interesting)
Let's face it, software patents as ridiculous as they are, are here to stay. This is why to stay in the game an organization like FSF needs a large protective patent portfolio (kinda like the one Microsoft has).
This also creates some money making opportunities for FSF, because they could sue the most vehement opponents of FOSS software pretty much at will for infringement on FSF and its contributors' "intellectual property" and request ridiculous sums of money in damages.
Re:What Stallman should do instead is (Score:2)
Where is the money going to come from? Are we to donate it all? Can we collect enough to compile a significant number? Or should this be done individually, by separate projects and people? Should all patents be assigned to the FSF?
Basically, such a project requires an enormous fiscal paradigm shift for the community.
Re:What Stallman should do instead is (Score:2)
http://www.investors.com/breakingnews.asp?journal i d=27910020 [investors.com]
Nokia's patent promise is empty... (Score:2)
Save us, RMS! (Score:2)
If Nokia really meant it... (Score:4, Interesting)
(Maybe they have done this? In which case RMS should shut up and go home, once Nokia issues such a license they can't take it back.)
It is possible to issue such a license - A few years ago Cornell issued such a license for a few videoconferencing patents related to their CU30 algorithm, which was initially released as an open-source implementation. Basically anyone could use the patents for free if it were in software with specific licenses, but if you wanted to use them in close-source commercial software you had to pay $$$. Also, I remember someone with a number of font-related patents (Including the underlying patent behind Microsoft's ClearType technology) did something similar - issuing a free unlimited-use license for any software that met certain open-source criteria.
Why Just Linux? (Score:2, Interesting)
It is rather odd that Nokia is singling out the "Linux" kernel as a benefactor of its largess. I would agree with Stallman's point (albeit poorly made) that the granting of "immunity" to the Linux kernel implies some manner of "threat" to other projects, including FOSS.
What would Nokia's motivation be for making this announcement? I doubt they need the clout for getting patents crammed through the EU -- it's just a matter of time, unfortnately. My guess is that they have some skunkworks project using Li
Patents are a neccessary evil in captialism (Score:2)
Mere lobbying for SW patents (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm not against patents, nor even SW patents, for genuinely original thinking that was unlikely to be derived or released elsewhere. RSA is perhaps the best example. But many patents are far less than original or non-obvious, and that is the major problem. The US has a very bad situation (patent everything), the EU has a somewhat better but still bad situation (no SW patents).
Nokia didn't have a choice (Score:3, Insightful)
Nevertheless, Nokia didn't have to choose Linux. They could have shipped BSD or QNX, for example. Someone did a cost/benefit analysis inside Nokia and found that Linux was worth it. That's a good thing. In fact, I think it's a better thing than if they had done this for publicity or other intangible reasons.
It's true Nokia is also lobbying for software patents. I'm not convinced, however, that the two actions are necessarily related, however. Companies aren't all that organized or coordinated internally, and there are far easier arguments for them to make.
there be dragons out there... (Score:3, Interesting)
Now, the earth is flat and if you sail out there, the dragons will get you.
Re:I'm only posting to say that... (Score:3, Insightful)
Companies can't make money giving their crown jewels away. Their jewels are their investment in their employees who generate code. Sometimes, companies can afford to do that because it generates income on other levels for them, sometimes, companies can't.
Re:I'm only posting to say that... (Score:3, Insightful)
Think about it next time before you troll.
Re:What the "mega-corporations" will ask... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:o_O (Score:2)
Re:o_O (Score:5, Insightful)
Both the Linux kernel and the GNU tools are essential for an operating system.
Though he may be eccentric at times, I wholeheartedly applaud Richard Stallman and what his efforts have provided to the rest of the world (for free as in freedom and beer, I might add).
Why the younger generation open source enthusiasts continue to badger Mr. Stallman is beyond me. Shame on you.
Re:o_O (Score:3, Funny)
Both the Linux kernel and the GNU tools are essential for an operating system.
I see and have used lots of Operating Systems that dont rely on either the Linux kernel or the GNU tools. Neither are essential for an operating system, but both are often seen in operating systems, quite frequently together in the GNU/Linux OS. Please dont make it sound like an OS cant exist without the Linux kernel or the GNU tools.
Re:o_O (Score:2)
Re:o_O (Score:2)
Re:o_O (Score:2, Funny)
The linux kernel and gnu tools are essential for *that* OS *as it stands now*, not for all operating systems. Logically your statment is valid, but not in the spirit in which you likely made it.
He has worked on some decent projects, yes. This does NOT, however, mean that he can stand up and basically spout off t
Re:o_O (Score:2)
This does NOT, however, mean that he can stand up and basically spout off that the world needs to be "free" and expect to be taken seriously by anyone who is actually in business.
Has it ever occurred to you that he might not be aiming to persuade those "in business"?
Your ideas aren't particularly new or revolutionizing, stating that everything should be owned by those who make it and nothing can be free. Maybe that's why nobody listens to you, while a lot of us listen to Stallman for an interesting op
Re:o_O (Score:3, Insightful)
I didn't say that *nothing* should be free. I said that the people who are responsible for making it should be able to decide how they want to release it (free or otherwise), as opposed to Stallman who wants *everything* to be free and thinks that people who want to keep their work are evil.
Besides, as far as my view goes, it happens to coincide with the view of another person who was actually giving a talk on open source and licensing last week.
Leo
Re:o_O (Score:3, Funny)
Freedom of speech. He can say what he wants, and I can say what I want about what he said.
Re:And not to be outdone... (Score:2)
Re:And not to be outdone... (Score:4, Informative)
Fact is, Stallman set out many years ago to make a Free OS. He worked hard on it, both coding himself, and getting others to help with it. He drove this idea for years. All that was lacking was a kernel, and that was being worked on. But Linus finished his kernel first, and Stallmans dream was now reality - a complete Free OS now available. Can you blame him for wanting a little credit? Can you blame him for wanting people using the OS he worked so hard for so many years to create to have a clue where it came from?
Patents have everything to do with weapons (Score:5, Insightful)
Patents are most definitely weapons, using the same language. Patents are used for offense and for defense and are expensive. The patent industry are arms dealers (again, using the same metaphorical language) and the sale of patents, just like the sale of arms, will enable war and violence between those who want and those who have.
Patents are weapons and unfortunately are used mainly by the strong against the weak.
And Stallman is most definitely sane, and exceptionally clear in his analysis. If you do not understand him, that's OK. It's a bit intellectual. But kindly don't insult one of the visionaries of our age... it just makes you look silly.
Re:Patents have everything to do with weapons (Score:5, Insightful)
Stallman is a visionary, and I'm not a drone for saying that. He recognised the future and put into words and the GPL is that statement.
I've spent much of my life writing free software. Why is that a joke? Is it because you are unable to understand it? Yet it makes perfect (economic) sense to me, the author, to distribute for free what I cannot sell, because it's worth much more to me alive and kicking than dead on a shelf.
Incidentally, free software is most definitely property. It's just communal property, not private property. The distinction is essential.
Re:Patents have everything to do with weapons (Score:2, Interesting)
Stallman is not one of the "visionaries of our age". He is a zealout that will stop at nothing to get his point across. Just look at the fact that he calls linux GNU/linux (and many times has stated he wanted the name changed).
*Sighs*. Why don't you look at the fact that he started the GNU project instead? Important, yes?
Stallman should be happy companies are even bothering to support the free software community at all. If you look at any of the large free software projects (Mysql,apache,php, and op
Re:Terrible analogy (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Terrible analogy (Score:2)
For example, it could just be an imperfect analogy. Reasonable people make them occasionally. Or, it could in fact be a very good analogy, and your dislike of it is due to poor judgement on your part. Given your evident tendency to hyperbole, I favor the latter explanation.
Re:Terrible analogy (Score:3, Insightful)
Now whether the anology is useful is another matter. But even the act of proffering a bad anology does not make one dishonest, stupid, or insane. Personally, I'd have to very seriously question the motives of someone li
Re:Terrible analogy (Score:4, Insightful)
A weapon (any weapon) can be used to intimidate and/or destroy. Patents are capable of doing both. Given the number of people and organizations that are being unjustly threatened by software patents, or being destroyed by them
The Trivialization Of Physical Assaults (Score:2, Troll)
When someone sends you a letter telling you to cease-and-desist from infinging their patent
Re:software patents are probably a go in the EU (Score:2)
Civil disobedience.
Rejecting the EU.
That's about it.
Re:software patents are probably a go in the EU (Score:3, Insightful)
Not legally. But at least development could continue and the software would be available once the patent expires. It's still a terrible outcome for those who oppose software patents though. Still, if it's going to happen - what's the fallback position? There has to be one. Either that or - FS/OSS developers give up and stop coding? That seems
Re:No wonder RMS is ignored outside of FOSS ... (Score:2)
Richard, please let other people do the PR. Stick to writing the next version of the GPL and adding another meg of code to emacs. Please.
While on the topic of an organization going back on its promises. Is there
Re:No wonder RMS is ignored outside of FOSS ... (Score:2)
Re:No wonder RMS is ignored outside of FOSS ... (Score:2)
Portraying an inconvenience or annoyance as a life and death matter. Ask Nokia to back their verbal offer with a written license? Sure, absolutely. If Nokia declines and someday enforces their patents, fine, get their Win32 app to run under Wine. Linux users would be inconvenienced but only an ideology would be harmed, and then not substantially.
Re:No wonder RMS is ignored outside of FOSS ... (Score:3, Funny)
Without software patents innocent children will die of hunger, PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!
Re:No wonder RMS is ignored outside of FOSS ... (Score:2)
we will use broad software patents to sue terrorists
we will use broad software patents to sue those who do organised crime
we will use broad software patents to sue commies
software patents will allow the hungry african children to innovate their way out of hunger
I'm sure he hasn't seen Star Wars ... (Score:2, Funny)
I'm sure he hasn't seen Star Wars. A ticket would only give money to the capitalist fascists who want to kill us. I'm sure he's holding out until Star Wars is released to the public domain. Err, I mean until ownership of Star Wars is transfered to the FSF and the movies are rereleased under the GEL, Gnu Entertainment License.
Re:I piss on Stallman (Score:4, Insightful)
I have to say, that's a pretty good indication the man is on the right side.
Rock on Richard.
Re:I piss on Stallman (Score:2, Funny)
That's what's I like best about Stallman on /. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:That's what's I like best about Stallman on /. (Score:2)
Well at least your troll shows a little more work than the one I first replied to.