Anti-DMCA Petition in Canadian Parliament 409
Matthew Skala writes "Last month we heard that the Canadian government is rejecting some of the worst features of the DMCA (more analysis here), but with Heritage Minister Liza Frulla parroting the media-cartel lobby with a promise to "give the tools to companies and authors to sue" and persuade children that downloading music for free is morally wrong even though it's presently legal in Canada, the battle is far from won. Yesterday, Member of Parliament Peter Julian (Burnaby-New Westminster, NDP) introduced the first batch of signatures on Digital Copyright Canada's Petition for Users' Rights. This isn't just a Web click-through petition that politicians can freely ignore; more than a thousand real hardcopy signatures have already been collected from Canadian residents opposed to further expansion of copyright privileges, and the campaign is hoping for many more. Additional coverage on p2pnet.net."
Legal vs. moral (Score:5, Insightful)
If something's legal, it doesn't mean it's also moral and conversely, doing the morally right thing might not be legal at the time.
Re:Legal vs. moral (Score:5, Funny)
"Once something has been approved by the Government, It's no longer immoral."
Laws based on Morals. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Laws based on Morals. (Score:2, Insightful)
Anyways... I find that morality seems to always infringe on a person's rights and freedoms. Some may say flag burning is immoral or that saying something insulting about our government is immoral.
So you see, you can't simply force a set of moral upon an entire population.
Morality is a personal choice. If someone chooses not to be moral, well there's no way you're going to force them to have
Re:Laws based on Morals. (Score:5, Funny)
I find also that my morals are always infringing on my own rights and freedoms. Which is weird, because they're my morals, so they're right, but also they're wrong.
> So you see, you can't simply force a set of moral upon an entire population.
Not simply. It takes a lot of weaponry and planning.
> Morality is a personal choice.
OK.
> If someone chooses not to be moral,
> well there's no way you're going to force them to have a sense of
> morality.
Wait. So morality exists, and people choose to be moral or immoral? If morality exists absolutely, then how can you force morality onto someone? They either choose to be moral, or not.
> Part of freedom is being free to choose
All of freedom is being free to choose. That's it.
> and in this case being free to choose what you think is moral and immoral.
So if I choose to have no sense of morality, then what have I chosen?
You're confusing me. Stop it.
Re:Laws based on Morals. (Score:3, Funny)
BWAHAHAHAHA! Funniest thing I've read all week!
FREE WILL (Score:3, Insightful)
>All of freedom is being free to choose. That's it.
In the words of Geddy Lee (a Canadian, so this post is certainly ON TOPIC):
Re:Laws based on Morals. (Score:2, Insightful)
The reason for this is much of morality is the simply belief that X is right and Y is wrong intrisically. However, much of that can't be proven, and doesn't really hold up in a multicultural society where much of our beliefs of right and wrong can shift.
So, instead, laws are based usually on a lowest common point of morals which a large majority can agree on, plus some ethical considerations that say y
Re:Legal vs. moral (Score:2)
What is moral is not always legal (depends on your specific morals here [same above, but I hope we can agree on that one]).
Re:Legal vs. moral (Score:2, Insightful)
So now that you've bought your shiny CD and paid for the music, what's immoral about putting music on it?
Perhaps you can say its immoral to put music on CDs, but then would it not also be immoral for the music cartels to get your tax money that you paid for putting music on CDs?
It seems whatever moral high ground you're standing o
Re:Legal vs. moral (Score:2)
The govt stopped the taxation because they determined that the money collected wasn't being distributed properly or something.
Re:Legal vs. moral (Score:2, Insightful)
The only thing immoral is stealing my money when I buy blanks.
Re:Legal vs. moral (Score:3, Insightful)
It isn't stealing in Canada, by definition. Your opinion does not make law.
Max
Re:Legal vs. moral (Score:2)
Also note that just because a law labels something doesn't make it immoral. Defending yourself is never immoral, yet its illegal to use force to do so here in Canada. We can share music, but if somebody attacks you then you'd better hope the police respond to your cries for help.
Re:Legal vs. moral (Score:5, Insightful)
As has been stated many times, the levy goes to the copywrite holders (in Canada) not to the government.
It is (IMHO) that it is immoral to take our money and then try to convince us that we can't use what we have purchased.
Correction (Score:2)
You should have said that it was technically impossible to steal music by downloading copies of files up there... and anywhere. It is copyright infringement. It is not forgery, theft, fraud, theft, rape, or murder. It isn't even GTA.
"and the relevant peer groups' opinion of music thievery as perfectly acceptable."
I defy you to find one message in Slashdot, usenet, or the whole wide world web that justifies music thiever
Re:Legal vs. moral (Score:3, Insightful)
To me, it's the equivalent of someone photocopying Dilbert from the news paper, and passing it out during business meetings, etc.
or someone taking the newspaper from the breakroom, photocopying Dilbert, and adding it to his Dilbert collection, perhaps even scanning it and leaving it on an obscure page in his website, for people he wants to have. Why is not important in this case.
I mention this because the issue of photocopied comic strips getting distributed in offices
Teaching right from wrong (Score:5, Funny)
From the article:
Mabye she could start up a hip, happening new ad campaign like the SPA's Don't Copy that Floppy [versiontwo.org].
Mabye it will be just as effective, too.
Mabye I'm a Chinese jet pilot.
Re:Teaching right from wrong (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Teaching right from wrong (Score:3, Funny)
Up next "Pinch my ride!"
Re:Teaching right from wrong (Score:2)
It isn't stealing (Score:2)
Downloading, copying or taping off the radio is a legally permitted activity in many countries.
In Canada we even even have the blank media levy (tax) to pay the copyright holders for their work.
Next they'll tell us getting a tax refund is stealing from the government.
Re:It isn't stealing (Score:3, Interesting)
Yep. We have the same thing and IIRC the official line is that it doesn't entitle us to copy copyrighted material except for our own private use. It's not an excuse to burn copies of an audio CD to your friends outside the immediate family, for instance. That's copyright infringement.
Interestingly, our taxi companies also have to pay for the music if the drivers want to have a radio on while driving around
Re:It isn't stealing (Score:2)
As long as they do it, and it is for their use, it's okay today at least.
I don't actually do this, most music isn't worth listening to.
I'm downloading the petition now. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I'm downloading the petition now. (Score:5, Funny)
Ah well, at least the Canadians aren't burning down the white house anymore..
Re:I'm downloading the petition now. (Score:2)
Re:I'm downloading the petition now. (Score:2)
no, im not a history geek, just someone who thinks canada is funnier than it really is
Re:I'm downloading the petition now. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I'm downloading the petition now. (Score:3, Funny)
And they sure did kick their own asses!
Re:I'm downloading the petition now. (Score:2)
Just because the british troops were here didnt make them american. IT was burned by the british. Besides, its easier to blame the brits, they are litterally hundreds of miles away.
Re:I'm downloading the petition now. (Score:5, Informative)
And boy, does it show.
At the time of the War of 1812, there were two territories with the name "Canada" in them -- Upper Canada, and Lower Canada. People who lived in those territories were known as "Canadians" (or, in the case of Lower Canada, "les Canadiens").
A group can be a people with having a nation. Ever hear of the Kurds? The Palestinians? The Welsh?
There was a Canada before Confederation, and the people who lived there were Canadians. Yes, they were British subjects (although their loyalties to the British crown certain varied -- Native Canadians and French Canadians also participated in the War, but generally held no special loyalty to the crown), but there is nothing preventing anyone from calling them "Canadians", and being perfectly understandable and correct when they do so.
Yaz.
Re:I'm downloading the petition now. (Score:3, Interesting)
If you replace 'passive' with 'not antagonistic' then you have it right.
Oh, and I think the Republican attempt to have the *federal* executive and legislative branches overturn a *state* *judicial* matter gives lie to that other bit.
Man, a hundred years ago, an attempt like that would have seen armed citizens in the streets.
Re:I'm downloading the petition now. (Score:2)
I've always thought that America is simply too large and diverse a country to actually treat as a single entity.
Re:I'm downloading the petition now. (Score:5, Funny)
And this is a good thing???
Max
Re:I'm downloading the petition now. (Score:2)
Re:I'm downloading the petition now. (Score:3, Informative)
Not saying that's neccessarily what happened here, but that would be my first guess given the situation you descr
Re:I'm downloading the petition now. (Score:3, Insightful)
You do the math, dear reader. For every one million dollars of revenue received by the record company, we got $50,000, to be split four ways. And we had to repay the recording, production and artwork expenses (also note we couldn't shop around to get the best rates on
Re:I'm downloading the petition now. (Score:2)
Patiently awaiting my karma windfall.
Canada Rocks (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Canada Rocks (Score:2)
Re:Canada Rocks (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Canada Rocks (Score:5, Funny)
For God's sake, they've been here for four hundred years!
At this point they're about as French as English-speaking North America is British, no matter what Triumph the Insult Comic Dog says.
Re:Canada Rocks (Score:2)
Actually it's even better in some provinces as the drinking age is 18 in Alberta and Quebec.
Re:Canada Rocks (Score:2)
Its 18 in Quebec and Alberta, 19 elsewhere (like Ontario), and its M.A.D.D., not M.A.D.
Re:Canada Rocks (Score:2)
ok I'm ready..
1. It's full of Canadians.
See your 5 reasons Canada is good, ok now imagine Canada full of americans, oops where'd all the good points go? I won't even bother with the case of the british currently occupying Canada, the deaths at the border crossings alone rules out that..
2. It's gets really cold.
It's about 53F here right now, give it a few weeks and it'll be >60F, warm enough for me (what's it like in the dakotas or maine right now?)
Re:Canada Rocks (Score:2)
I would not call Canada full anything population-wise. One of the notable things about the country is its vast size and smalll population, almost all of which lives very close to the southern (US) border.
Here... (Score:4, Funny)
Enjoy.
Signatures (Score:3, Funny)
Shoot, that's half the country right there alrady opposed to it!
Virtue of a Parliamentary System of Democracy (Score:2, Interesting)
I honestly don't think the MP in questions gives a damn about the rights of the listeneres. But at least he is doing something for whihc people would remember him, in a positive light.
British style Parliaments [mithuro.com] have their own problems, but I think Canada has quite successfully i
1000 Signatures... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:1000 Signatures... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:1000 Signatures... (Score:2)
wait, why the fuck and im replying to an AC? Waste of my time
Re:1000 Signatures... (Score:3, Interesting)
Something you should know about political contributions in Canada. There are strict limits on how much a company (or an individual) can contribute to politicians. Last I checked, it was something like $10,000 per party.
In theory, this is supposed to prevent politicians from being bought.
Election *might* be coming up (Score:2)
Canada Icon? (Score:5, Interesting)
I mean, how many YRO stories involve Canada doing something we wish was happening here? Don't we get more 'Canada' stories than, say, 'Transmeta' stories or 'Geeks in Space' stories?
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Re:backpacks... websites... (Score:2)
Unfortunate for Americans is that their government's foreign policies, and a few obnoxious travellers ruined your flag for you.
Re:Canada Icon? (Score:2)
Argh! Thanks for the visual. Really.
It will be a long time before I'll be able to eat pancakes again, I can assure you.
NDP took opposite stand during election (Score:3, Interesting)
In any case, no matter what Liz Frulla is saying to appease the lobby groups, if the legislation sticks to the proposed plan there should be no problem.
And what the article summary appears to have missed is that one of the things in the plan is to close the loophole that probably makes unauthorized downloading of copyrighted music legal in Canada.
This should go hand-in-hand with repealing the blank media levy, since it is supposed to be linked to the legalization of 'private copying', but no word on that yet.
Not that I'd expect it, though, the government has never met a tax dollar it didn't like.
Re:NDP took opposite stand during election (Score:2)
He's a politician; it should be expected that he'd flip-flop to gain population support.
It's just up to us to support him when it works to our advantage, and support another when it doesn't.
Won't someone PLEASE think of the children? (Score:3, Funny)
"Everything starts with the children," she said. "They're the ones who say `recycle' and `don't smoke.' The Internet is their world."
Ah, yes, the children, and all the terrible things that might happen to them if this isn't passed.
Re:Won't someone PLEASE think of the children? (Score:3, Interesting)
At a recent conference on copyright at University of Toronto's Faculty of Law, she buttonholed the former chair of the standing committee, Sarmite Bu
I hope America decides to butt in... (Score:5, Funny)
ok (Score:2)
Re:ok (Score:2)
Ive done it (Score:4, Funny)
Total time: 25 minutes
Cost to me: 50cents (postage)
Feeling empowered istead of victimized: Priceless
theres some laws you cant buy, for everything else theres internet petitions
Re:Ive done it (Score:2)
House of Commons
Parliament Buildings
Ottawa, Ontario
Canada
K1A 0A6
Its not how the organizers want it, but it will work, maybe.
Re:Ive done it (Score:2)
Re:Ive done it (Score:3, Funny)
Postage: $0.50
Employees dumb enough to brag about their slackness on Slashdot so that you can conveniently round them up and fire them: priceless
There are some forms of misbehavior you can't punish. For everything else, there's Human Resources.
Good to see this (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm very happy to see that somebody actually sees copyright for what it really is...A privilege...granted to you by the public, subject to revocation at every election. Let's not forget that, eh?
That's interesting, but.... (Score:2)
That is interesting, but it is granted by the government, not the public. Big difference.
The world is becoming like the one in Aliens (Score:3, Insightful)
The quote might not be accurate but the power of corporations keep growing lately. Especially in the US where the laws keeping corporations in check are too weak.
A lot of conflicts where people died were partly because of corporations. Corporations get too powerful, violence has to happen to get the situation back to normal/livable. Happened in history lots of times. Mussolini said something like: "Fascism can be more accurately called corporatism"
It's happening right now as well, there was this piece in Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 911" where the population in a South-American country/province rebelled against a corporation and it's corrupt helpers. They were forbidden to collect and use rainwater from their own roofs because the water company wanted to sell more water at starvation prices.
I hope we can fight off software patents in Europe, I hope Canada can fight off this law. Better to do it now peacefully than having to do it violently later. Might already be too late for the US. Incredible how the doofuses there vote their enemies into government.
The most important thing is to keep thinking logically and optimistically. Keep an image of what you want in your head and things will work out. For example, think: "it's not too late for the US, things WILL work out better if we can just convince people of the truth, the brainwashed can not be convinced should be labeled not sane" etc.
Let them pass their meaningless laws... (Score:3, Interesting)
Until someone breaking such a law shows up in court, this will all mean nothing anyway. I would prefer the petition succeeds, but sooner or later, the entire damn thing will come crashing down simply because the law that the petition is against is essentially unenforcible anyway.
Trying to pass laws preventing computers from copying information and using the internet from sharing that information is like trying to pass a law saying you can buy scissors, but cannot use scissors to cut things.
It makes no sense to pass a law preventing you from using an item that you are permitted to own in a manner it is designed to be used.
END COMMUNICATION
Re:The NDP isn't in power. (Score:2)
Liza, a member of the NDP, wants the WIPO changes ratified into Canadian law, making the Canadian equivalent of the DMCA.
The petition is to uphold the rights of the user as-is and also to uphold the decision of the superior court than downloading is not stealing.
Re:The NDP isn't in power. (Score:2)
References:
http://www.liberal.ca/bio_e.aspx?&id=24024 [liberal.ca]
http://pm.gc.ca/eng/bio.asp?id=13 [pm.gc.ca]
Re:The NDP isn't in power. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:The NDP isn't in power. (Score:2)
Re:The NDP isn't in power. (Score:2)
Re:The NDP isn't in power. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:The NDP isn't in power. (Score:5, Informative)
Also, given the latest sponsorship scandal (biggest scandal in Canadian politics in the last 10, maybe 20 years) the opposition parties will be looking for publically popular positions to use to 'gang up' on the ruling party.
This petition has some weight given its timing, and private member's bills have been known to successfully be passed...especially during minority governments.
Re:The NDP isn't in power. (Score:2)
And the Heritage Minister is tied into that fiasco -- her chief of staff, John Welch, was named in the Brault testimony, and has temporarily stepped down [canada.com].
I don't think she, or anyone in the Liberal party, is going to have the time of day for anything other than trying to save their
Re:The NDP isn't in power. (Score:5, Informative)
Erm - WTF are you talking about? This isn't an "NDP" initiative, and even if it were our government is currently a MINORITY government, which gives all MP's, especially those sitting in opposition, significantly more power.
While I do not doubt that the politicians WILL ignore it, I think they do so at their peril. And just because I have no hope that they will lend credence to the petition does not mean I will not get everyone I know to sign it and send it to Parliament Hill in my MP's hands.
Re:The NDP isn't in power. (Score:2)
By saying it is a problem, and voting against it (Which I'm sure they will. It's comming from some back bencher within the NDP not even their leading people.)
They send a big wake up call to the U.S. who will get heavy with Martin who's a putz and we'll get our currently good for us good for musicians system shut down and we'll be looking at lawsuits.
This MP needs to talk to some Canadian musicians.
This could probably all be settled by looking at her bank history, cough.
Re:The NDP isn't in power. (Score:2)
Weather The NDP is in power or not... (Score:4, Informative)
My MP (Jaff Brya Victoria-Becon Hill, [Libral]) happens to be a member of the ruling party, and ther more MP's whose contsituants ask their MP's to Present the petition to Parliament the stronger it looks!
Here is the Cool part: If I am correct, only 25 signitures are needed for each MP, so the more Rideings (Canadian for an MP's electoral district) who collect signitures, the better!
Copied from MY OWN AC post cus I forgot to turn cookies on in Firefox!
Re: Weather The NDP is in power or not... (Score:2, Informative)
Actually, MPs can introduce petitions with signatures from anywhere in Canada as long as they have a bunch from their own riding. Peter Julian was chosen for the first batch because many of the signatures were in his area, and the petition organizers were able to convince him to support the cause. His being an NDP member isn't particularly relevant. This is an issue
Thanks for the info! MODS READ PARENT! (Score:2)
Re: Weather The NDP is in power or not... (Score:2)
Semi-relatedly, if anyone in said Victoria-Beacon Hill district happens to have a spare petition lying around, it would save me buying a prin
Bring down the government (Score:2)
I would rather have ANY of the opposition parties in power, they at least have an idea of what they want, will honestly and clearly state it, and work towards it.
The liberals keep changing depending on the public opinion poll of the day. Which is a sad way to govern.
Re:Not about copyright at all (Score:3, Insightful)
Real, upstanding, proud citizens of the USA who carry themselves with humility, share their many gifts with their neighbours, and accept our many differences with grace are much loved here. I mean, we're family, right? I wouldn't discard my brother
Off-topic but needs to be said (Score:5, Insightful)
We could all learn a lot more about each other if we got rid of these attitudes and spent a little time getting to know one another's countries.
Re:Not about copyright at all (Score:2)
Yeah. As soon as Canada elects a government they do not like, they will run to Cuba. And if an election ever happens in Cuba, they will run to North Korea. Then they will have no where else to run.
Re:I'm happy to live in Canada (Score:2)
Does Quebec still have the problem it was infamous for 10 or so years ago of censoring private speech/writing for being in the wrong language? I've not heard an update on this in while.
That is rather "fascistic"... (Score:2, Interesting)
So, they still have the language-nazi problem? For all of the US problems with the Spanish language, I have yet to see a proposal as extreme as having the government punishing individuals for writing in the "wrong" language. Not even Pat Buchanan.
"Speak the language ... French!"
Why not let them speak what they want? There is no good reason at all that the "French language protection"
Re:That is rather "fascistic"... (Score:2)
It is the commercial censorship that goes WAY overboard. A country that respects the free rights of expression for its citizens would not care what language people used in their private, non-governmental affairs.
"there must be a french version available so that the 80% of french speaking population can understand... that is not asking a lot"
Yes it is asking a lot. The US has more than 80% english speaking, but if someone wants to put up a sign in Sanskrit
How do you measure tenfold? (Score:2)
Freedom-of-speech certainly did not benefit. What did benefit "tenfold"? Are the Quebecoi ten times richer than before?
Re:Get the facts straight. (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, if by "downloading" you mean making a personal copy of someone else's commercial music, then you're wrong.
The Canadian Copyright Act specifically allows personal copies of music to be made. The U.S.A. has never had an equivalent exclusion in its copyright laws.
Re:Get the facts straight. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:That's it! (Score:2)
We solve our differences and defend our freedoms like real men, using beer bottles.