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Anti-DMCA Petition in Canadian Parliament 409

Matthew Skala writes "Last month we heard that the Canadian government is rejecting some of the worst features of the DMCA (more analysis here), but with Heritage Minister Liza Frulla parroting the media-cartel lobby with a promise to "give the tools to companies and authors to sue" and persuade children that downloading music for free is morally wrong even though it's presently legal in Canada, the battle is far from won. Yesterday, Member of Parliament Peter Julian (Burnaby-New Westminster, NDP) introduced the first batch of signatures on Digital Copyright Canada's Petition for Users' Rights. This isn't just a Web click-through petition that politicians can freely ignore; more than a thousand real hardcopy signatures have already been collected from Canadian residents opposed to further expansion of copyright privileges, and the campaign is hoping for many more. Additional coverage on p2pnet.net."
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Anti-DMCA Petition in Canadian Parliament

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  • Legal vs. moral (Score:5, Insightful)

    by October_30th ( 531777 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @12:53PM (#12177500) Homepage Journal
    Uh, what kind of an argument is that?

    If something's legal, it doesn't mean it's also moral and conversely, doing the morally right thing might not be legal at the time.

    • by camkind ( 742277 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @01:04PM (#12177633) Homepage
      As Rev. Lovejoy once said to Marge

      "Once something has been approved by the Government, It's no longer immoral."
    • by ShaniaTwain ( 197446 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @01:04PM (#12177634) Homepage
      All laws should be based on morals. its the moral thing to do. otherwise the cavity of immorality will rot away the molars of our morals.
      • But who can say what's moral? There's so many different versions of "morality" that it's impossibe to pick just one.

        Anyways... I find that morality seems to always infringe on a person's rights and freedoms. Some may say flag burning is immoral or that saying something insulting about our government is immoral.

        So you see, you can't simply force a set of moral upon an entire population.

        Morality is a personal choice. If someone chooses not to be moral, well there's no way you're going to force them to have
        • by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 08, 2005 @01:25PM (#12177853)
          > I find that morality seems to always infringe on a person's rights and freedoms.

          I find also that my morals are always infringing on my own rights and freedoms. Which is weird, because they're my morals, so they're right, but also they're wrong.

          > So you see, you can't simply force a set of moral upon an entire population.

          Not simply. It takes a lot of weaponry and planning.

          > Morality is a personal choice.

          OK.

          > If someone chooses not to be moral,
          > well there's no way you're going to force them to have a sense of
          > morality.

          Wait. So morality exists, and people choose to be moral or immoral? If morality exists absolutely, then how can you force morality onto someone? They either choose to be moral, or not.

          > Part of freedom is being free to choose

          All of freedom is being free to choose. That's it.

          > and in this case being free to choose what you think is moral and immoral.

          So if I choose to have no sense of morality, then what have I chosen?

          You're confusing me. Stop it.


          • > So you see, you can't simply force a set of moral upon an entire population.

            Not simply. It takes a lot of weaponry and planning.

            BWAHAHAHAHA! Funniest thing I've read all week!
          • FREE WILL (Score:3, Insightful)

            by shufler ( 262955 )
            >> Part of freedom is being free to choose
            >All of freedom is being free to choose. That's it.

            In the words of Geddy Lee (a Canadian, so this post is certainly ON TOPIC):

            You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
            If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
            You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
            I will choose a path that's clear
            I will choose freewill.
      • I think we'd like to think laws should be based on morals, but really they aren't and nor can they be.

        The reason for this is much of morality is the simply belief that X is right and Y is wrong intrisically. However, much of that can't be proven, and doesn't really hold up in a multicultural society where much of our beliefs of right and wrong can shift.

        So, instead, laws are based usually on a lowest common point of morals which a large majority can agree on, plus some ethical considerations that say y

    • What is legal is not always moral (hiring a prostitute to cheat on your significant other in vegas [where prostitution is legal], or cheating on your sig other in general [especially when maried]).

      What is moral is not always legal (depends on your specific morals here [same above, but I hope we can agree on that one]).
  • by TripMaster Monkey ( 862126 ) * on Friday April 08, 2005 @12:54PM (#12177514)

    From the article:


    She [Liza Frulla] said she wanted to make it her mission to persuade children that downloading music for free is wrong.


    Mabye she could start up a hip, happening new ad campaign like the SPA's Don't Copy that Floppy [versiontwo.org].

    Mabye it will be just as effective, too.

    Mabye I'm a Chinese jet pilot.
    • Even better - persuade all music ever released to carry a little black and white warning label saying "Parental Advisory - Listening prohibited" :)
  • by ahsile ( 187881 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @12:54PM (#12177521) Homepage Journal
    And plan to sign it, and have everyone I know sign it. I won't have my rights stepped on without a fight. Who knows, maybe parliment will even reject the WIPO changes.
    • by ShaniaTwain ( 197446 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @01:02PM (#12177619) Homepage
      See this just doesnt seem right. Canadians are supposed to be passive and polite to a fault. Americans are supposed to be Freedom loving individuals that hate big government interfering in their life. Where am I? bizzaro world?

      Ah well, at least the Canadians aren't burning down the white house anymore..
    • I am in the States but this brings to mind a recent incident: My son and I are fans of anime. There is one series we both enjoy that so far has only been available in the US in the form of "pirate" "fan-subs". For those not familiar with the Anime world, a fan-sub is a fan created, subtitled version of the anime. These were done strictly for fans and as the banner across the credits says: "NOT FOR COMMERCIAL RESALE". For this particular series we were always missing episode three. Well, the other day
      • Are you absolutely sure that the "fansub" was really a fan-produced version? On occasion, the fansubs that you can get on the internet are actually just rips of a DVD from one of the Asian markets that happens to include English subs. Most of the reputable places that host fansubs try to weed those out, but if you downloaded them from usenet or IRC, that might have been what you ended up with.

        Not saying that's neccessarily what happened here, but that would be my first guess given the situation you descr

  • Canada Rocks (Score:2, Interesting)

    Excepting for the political thieves involved in the Sponsorship scandal, sometimes we get things right. Canada has great fair-use laws and politicians seem to know we the voters like it that way.
    • So, does the word "sponsorship" carry the same connotation in Canada as "bribery"? Because if (ha as if there were any doubt) my government officials were on the take, I certainly wouldn't let them downplay it by calling it "sponsorship"
    • Re:Canada Rocks (Score:2, Insightful)

      by tim256 ( 855256 )
      It does sound like Canada has a much better government than the US. Here are some things I think make the Canadian govt. better.
      1. Great fair-use laws and smarter politicians who don't work for the corporate machine.
      2. Universal health care sounds nice, and if you want super good health care you can go south and pay extra.
      3. Small military doesn't waste tons of money and people fighting wars in far away lands.
      4. Resonable drinking age of 19, as the highway dept. funding is not controlled by M.A.D.
      5. The Canadian g
      • by saforrest ( 184929 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @01:32PM (#12177932) Journal
        Lots of French people in Canada.

        For God's sake, they've been here for four hundred years!

        At this point they're about as French as English-speaking North America is British, no matter what Triumph the Insult Comic Dog says.
      • # Resonable drinking age of 19, as the highway dept. funding is not controlled by M.A.D.

        Actually it's even better in some provinces as the drinking age is 18 in Alberta and Quebec.
      • 4. Resonable drinking age of 19, as the highway dept. funding is not controlled by M.A.D.

        Its 18 in Quebec and Alberta, 19 elsewhere (like Ontario), and its M.A.D.D., not M.A.D.
      • Here are some bad things about Canada.
        ok I'm ready..

        1. It's full of Canadians.
        See your 5 reasons Canada is good, ok now imagine Canada full of americans, oops where'd all the good points go? I won't even bother with the case of the british currently occupying Canada, the deaths at the border crossings alone rules out that..

        2. It's gets really cold.
        It's about 53F here right now, give it a few weeks and it'll be >60F, warm enough for me (what's it like in the dakotas or maine right now?)
        • "1. It's full of Canadians"

          I would not call Canada full anything population-wise. One of the notable things about the country is its vast size and smalll population, almost all of which lives very close to the southern (US) border.

  • Here... (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 08, 2005 @12:57PM (#12177564)
    let me save you guys some time.

    • Why cant the USA be more like Canada?
    • Why do all the places with the best governments have the worst weather?
    • You like Canada so much, go move there!

    Enjoy.
  • Signatures (Score:3, Funny)

    by Shadow Wrought ( 586631 ) <shadow.wrought@gma i l . c om> on Friday April 08, 2005 @01:00PM (#12177589) Homepage Journal
    more than a thousand real hardcopy signatures have already been collected from Canadian residents

    Shoot, that's half the country right there alrady opposed to it!

  • This is what the US lacks. In a Parliamentary System the Members of Parliament (MPs) try to do something every term to make sure that their name gets wide recognition so that they have to spend less money campaigning for relection.

    I honestly don't think the MP in questions gives a damn about the rights of the listeneres. But at least he is doing something for whihc people would remember him, in a positive light.

    British style Parliaments [mithuro.com] have their own problems, but I think Canada has quite successfully i

  • 1000 Signatures... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by BJZQ8 ( 644168 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @01:07PM (#12177663) Homepage Journal
    1000 signatures! Wow! We're at .003 percent of the population! Unfortunately, I believe the various pro-DMCA lobbies have a lot more weight in the form of dollars...a few million Canadian dollars still is a lot of money.
    • last i checked, thats about 65 american dollars (or 2 euros)
    • by Jardine ( 398197 )
      1000 signatures! Wow! We're at .003 percent of the population! Unfortunately, I believe the various pro-DMCA lobbies have a lot more weight in the form of dollars...a few million Canadian dollars still is a lot of money.

      Something you should know about political contributions in Canada. There are strict limits on how much a company (or an individual) can contribute to politicians. Last I checked, it was something like $10,000 per party.

      In theory, this is supposed to prevent politicians from being bought.
  • Given the current scandal, there's the possibility of an election looming, so be sure to also pressure your MP, as well as signing that hand-written petition!

  • Canada Icon? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 08, 2005 @01:08PM (#12177675)
    Isn't it about time that Slashdot gets a 'Canada' Topic Icon? We have a USA one.

    I mean, how many YRO stories involve Canada doing something we wish was happening here? Don't we get more 'Canada' stories than, say, 'Transmeta' stories or 'Geeks in Space' stories?
  • by Proaxiom ( 544639 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @01:11PM (#12177704)
    Peter Julian's stand is a little odd consider the NDP supported ratification of the WIPO treaty that mandates a ban on anti-circumvention technology [cippic.ca].

    In any case, no matter what Liz Frulla is saying to appease the lobby groups, if the legislation sticks to the proposed plan there should be no problem.

    And what the article summary appears to have missed is that one of the things in the plan is to close the loophole that probably makes unauthorized downloading of copyrighted music legal in Canada.

    This should go hand-in-hand with repealing the blank media levy, since it is supposed to be linked to the legalization of 'private copying', but no word on that yet.

    Not that I'd expect it, though, the government has never met a tax dollar it didn't like.

    • Peter Julian's stand is a little odd consider the NDP supported ratification of the WIPO treaty that mandates a ban on anti-circumvention technology [cippic.ca].

      He's a politician; it should be expected that he'd flip-flop to gain population support.

      It's just up to us to support him when it works to our advantage, and support another when it doesn't.

  • by ortholattice ( 175065 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @01:12PM (#12177723)
    [Frulla] said she wanted to make it her mission to persuade children that downloading music for free is wrong.

    "Everything starts with the children," she said. "They're the ones who say `recycle' and `don't smoke.' The Internet is their world."

    Ah, yes, the children, and all the terrible things that might happen to them if this isn't passed.

    • Actually, nearly 300 names on the NEXT batch of petitions that are about to be presented in the House WERE collected by, not quite a child, but a 15 year old, namely, my daughter. As part of her high school civics course, she got involved with Digital Copyright Canada [digital-copyright.ca] and circulated the petition, singly collecting the most signatures of anyone in the campaign.

      At a recent conference on copyright at University of Toronto's Faculty of Law, she buttonholed the former chair of the standing committee, Sarmite Bu
  • by Atroxodisse ( 307053 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @01:12PM (#12177724) Homepage
    I hope the American lobby tries to butt in to get Canada to make more severe copyright laws because speaking as a Canadian, nothing makes us more stubborn than when America tries to make us do something we haven't made up our minds on. End result, no additional copyright laws.
  • by dynamo ( 6127 )
    so it's a hardcopy petition that politicians can freely ignore. how is that different? Or do you have actual decent people as leaders up there in canada?
    • by Sebby ( 238625 )
      Well, not the current leaders, but they're stuck between a rock and a hard place right now (the scandal), so they don't have much choice but to go with the flow if they want to maintain power.
  • Ive done it (Score:4, Funny)

    by crabpeople ( 720852 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @01:29PM (#12177899) Journal
    Just printed off the petition, passed it around the department to sign and then gave it to the shipping department to mail out.

    Total time: 25 minutes
    Cost to me: 50cents (postage)

    Feeling empowered istead of victimized: Priceless

    theres some laws you cant buy, for everything else theres internet petitions
    • You could always mail it to the MP who is introducing the singatures to parliment postage free at:

      House of Commons
      Parliament Buildings
      Ottawa, Ontario
      Canada
      K1A 0A6

      Its not how the organizers want it, but it will work, maybe.
    • Canada Post delivers mail to your MP for free. Send them whatever you want, whenever you want, for free. I'm not sure if that includes packages.
    • 25 minutes spending dicking around instead of working: $8.00

      Postage: $0.50

      Employees dumb enough to brag about their slackness on Slashdot so that you can conveniently round them up and fire them: priceless

      There are some forms of misbehavior you can't punish. For everything else, there's Human Resources.

  • Good to see this (Score:2, Insightful)

    by iminplaya ( 723125 )
    This isn't just a Web click-through petition that politicians can freely ignore; more than a thousand real hardcopy signatures have already been collected from Canadian residents opposed to further expansion of copyright privileges... Emphasis mine

    I'm very happy to see that somebody actually sees copyright for what it really is...A privilege...granted to you by the public, subject to revocation at every election. Let's not forget that, eh?
  • by doc modulo ( 568776 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @02:32PM (#12178597)
    "I'm Burke, I work for the company"

    The quote might not be accurate but the power of corporations keep growing lately. Especially in the US where the laws keeping corporations in check are too weak.

    A lot of conflicts where people died were partly because of corporations. Corporations get too powerful, violence has to happen to get the situation back to normal/livable. Happened in history lots of times. Mussolini said something like: "Fascism can be more accurately called corporatism"

    It's happening right now as well, there was this piece in Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 911" where the population in a South-American country/province rebelled against a corporation and it's corrupt helpers. They were forbidden to collect and use rainwater from their own roofs because the water company wanted to sell more water at starvation prices.

    I hope we can fight off software patents in Europe, I hope Canada can fight off this law. Better to do it now peacefully than having to do it violently later. Might already be too late for the US. Incredible how the doofuses there vote their enemies into government.

    The most important thing is to keep thinking logically and optimistically. Keep an image of what you want in your head and things will work out. For example, think: "it's not too late for the US, things WILL work out better if we can just convince people of the truth, the brainwashed can not be convinced should be labeled not sane" etc.
  • by LordZardoz ( 155141 ) on Friday April 08, 2005 @02:44PM (#12178744)
    They can pass all the laws they want about copyrights for digital media. They will be largely inneffective as a deterrent.

    Until someone breaking such a law shows up in court, this will all mean nothing anyway. I would prefer the petition succeeds, but sooner or later, the entire damn thing will come crashing down simply because the law that the petition is against is essentially unenforcible anyway.

    Trying to pass laws preventing computers from copying information and using the internet from sharing that information is like trying to pass a law saying you can buy scissors, but cannot use scissors to cut things.

    It makes no sense to pass a law preventing you from using an item that you are permitted to own in a manner it is designed to be used.

    END COMMUNICATION

If you hype something and it succeeds, you're a genius -- it wasn't a hype. If you hype it and it fails, then it was just a hype. -- Neil Bogart

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