Follow Slashdot blog updates by subscribing to our blog RSS feed

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Microsoft Government The Courts News

Microsoft Fails to Comply With EU Requirements 609

sebFlyte writes "ZDNet is reporting the news that the EU has rejected Microsoft's attempt to wriggle out of it's legal obligation to open up Windows protocols. Microsoft was attempting to bypass the regulation by offering a license totally incompatible with the GPL and which has an absurdly high fee attached. If Microsoft don't come up with a solution that the EU finds acceptable, then they can be fined $5m a day. They've also got some commentary on why Microsoft's behaviour cannot be allowed to stand." The BBC has commentary as well.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Microsoft Fails to Comply With EU Requirements

Comments Filter:
  • Like Larry Flynt (Score:5, Insightful)

    by suso ( 153703 ) * on Friday March 18, 2005 @10:15AM (#11975438) Journal
    $5 million a day? Big deal. Remember in the People vs Larry Flynt how the court fined him $10,000 a day until he complied with their request. $5 million a day is something like 1.8 billion a year. Somehow I think Microsoft would pay that just so that they can remain in control. From their point of view, the value of keeping their protocols closed is worth more than $1.8 billion a year. After all, they have enough cash in the bank to pay that fine for the next
    15 years.

    The EU would have to charge them $50 million a day before they'd really
    care.
    • by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 18, 2005 @10:17AM (#11975470)
      Yes, and after 15 years the company will be bankrupted as a result of fighting a war of ideology. Somehow I think that the shareholders would be ... upset ... by that outcome.
    • $1.8 billion a year would be a big boost to free software if an EU agency were to funnel it into free software development. That would anger Microsoft more than increasing the fine would.

      • Haha, that would be awesome. Actually Microsoft will probably pay at least $5 million for today or tommorow. At least that money could go towards free software development. $5 million goes a long way if its used right and not pocketed by 15 administrators along the way.
      • $1.8 billion a year would be a big boost to free software if an EU agency were to funnel it into free software development.

        Sure, right! What are the chances that big government will actually apply a fine towards fixing the problem the fine was levied for? Like ZILCH?

      • "$1.8 billion a year would be a big boost to free software if an EU agency were to funnel it into free software development. That would anger Microsoft more than increasing the fine would. "

        It's pathetic how people here claim to value freedom, but have no problem taking away someone's freedom when they don't like what they're doing. So now you want private companies to pay for your free software and use the force of govt. to get what you want. So much for freedom.
    • Re:Like Larry Flynt (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Xner ( 96363 ) on Friday March 18, 2005 @10:19AM (#11975488) Homepage
      They can impose fines up to a certain percentage of gross. I have a feeling they still have some wiggle room to increase them if MS decides to play the "pay and carry on as usual" game.

      The EU is slow and undecisive, but like all huge burocratic institutions, once it gets moving it has a certain inertia.

    • by MyLongNickName ( 822545 ) on Friday March 18, 2005 @10:20AM (#11975501) Journal
      I'm not sure what universe you live in, but $1.8 billion dollars per year is a lot of money. Even to Microsoft. This amounts to 20% of their profits.
      • I'm not sure what universe you live in, but $1.8 billion dollars per year is a lot of money.

        Of course I know thats a lot of money. For me and you it is. But from Microsoft's point of view, it might be a fair trade off. Especially given their previous tactics.

        In all likelyhood, they probably will comply with the EU's regulations in some way or another.
    • by tehshen ( 794722 )
      In the article, it says they already made $100 million a day. So even though losing half that would be pretty serious, they could still keep themselves up for a while.

      It's useless to attack a large corporation such as Microsoft with fines and taking away money, because it doesn't work. Instead, take away things that they need to stay in power, such as forcing them to open their protocols, or greater interoperability. But not money.
      • by Xner ( 96363 ) on Friday March 18, 2005 @10:25AM (#11975554) Homepage
        It's useless to attack a large corporation such as Microsoft with fines and taking away money, because it doesn't work. Instead, take away things that they need to stay in power, such as forcing them to open their protocols, or greater interoperability. But not money.

        That's the entire idea behind the ruling, as spelled out in the blurb (not even the article!). You just need a big stick when you tell them "open your protocols OR ELSE!". The multimillion dollar/day fines are the "or else".

      • by MyLongNickName ( 822545 ) on Friday March 18, 2005 @10:28AM (#11975585) Journal
        1) I did not read the article. But I think they may earn $100 million in revenue. NOT profit. This would cut into their profit margin by 20%.

        2) Fines have to be implemented. You say take away things that they need to stay in power, such as forcing them to open their protocols, or greater interoperability. But if Microsoft fails to comply? What are you going to do? Whine and pout? You have to fine them. And if that fails, prevent them from selling in your member countries.

        3) Ultimately it is money that a corporation is interested in, and SHOULD be interested in. It is up to gov't to create a system that makes that interest for money compatable with the wishes of society.
      • Re:Like Larry Flynt (Score:3, Interesting)

        by ckaminski ( 82854 )
        If you don't believe for one second that Microsoft's top 10 shareholders won't oust Bill and Steve for letting them throw away $millions in fines every year, you're naive. It's one thing to gamble on "Potential losses to competition", it's another thing to throw the baby out with the bath water.

        Not having open standards hasn't stopped the Samba team. Reverse engineering only makes it harder to do something. It's not prevention. Better to concede and use that $5m per day to innovate/morph faster than th
    • The article didn't said $5 million it said "5 percent of their global turnover".
    • Thought experiment (Score:3, Insightful)

      by hey! ( 33014 )
      Imagine two processes. First,you take microsoft, and fine them five million dollars a day. Next you take a pound of lead and let it gradually evaporate vai proton decay.

      Q: Which will decay to half of its value first -- the mass of the lead or Microsoft's cash reserves?
  • by The Other White Boy ( 626206 ) <theotherwhiteboy@@@gmail...com> on Friday March 18, 2005 @10:16AM (#11975454)
    i know there aren't a lot of microsoft supporters/fans around these parts (understatement of the year) ... but isn't $5M a day a bit, oh i dunno, steep?
    • Re:holy crap! (Score:5, Insightful)

      by gstoddart ( 321705 ) on Friday March 18, 2005 @10:25AM (#11975549) Homepage
      i know there aren't a lot of microsoft supporters/fans around these parts (understatement of the year) ... but isn't $5M a day a bit, oh i dunno, steep?

      Because it's been solidly demonstrated that if you don't do something very large to dissuade Microsoft, they will ignore you.

      In this case they were told they needed to open up their protocols and stop being anti-competitive, or they'd face something like this.

      In their usual way, they've decided that charging you large amounts of money to have access to those protocols, as well as preventing everyone in the open source arena from actually using this stuff was what was called for. Basically this violates the letter and spirit of the ruling against Microsoft.

      The US DoJ basically stopped pursuing this when Bush got into office. At least the EU actually has the smarts to actually enforce their rulings.

      It is entirely against the long-term interests of the entire industry for Microsoft to say 'you can't write software that talks to our software'. All Your Base is not acceptable in this case.
    • MS has something like $40 billion in cash lying around in their bank accounts. $5m/day * 365 days/year = $1.825 billion/year. I think MS can afford it with little trouble, and the amount is small enough it'll get treated as cost of doing business. A _much_ larger amount per day might get their attention.
    • It's called deterrence. Make them pay a TONNE of money if they don't comply. MS has repeately gotten small kicks in the ass for their actions and then keeps doing them. So now, they'll get a big kick in the ass.
    • Re:holy crap! (Score:4, Informative)

      by Zemran ( 3101 ) on Friday March 18, 2005 @11:13AM (#11976103) Homepage Journal
      [ but isn't $5M a day a bit, oh i dunno, steep? ]

      Not really, they had a choice. They could have complied with the spirit of the initial order and done what was required. Instead they chose to flagerantly flout the order to try to make the order benefit themselves, which is an insult to the court. They are now in a worse situation as they do not have any sympathy of the court. They only have themselves to blame.
    • Re:holy crap! (Score:3, Insightful)

      by pla ( 258480 )
      i know there aren't a lot of microsoft supporters/fans around these parts (understatement of the year) ... but isn't $5M a day a bit, oh i dunno, steep?

      Consider what Microsoft has actually done to get that penalty... This has nothing to do with failing to open up their protocols, and everything to do with all but telling the EU the go fornicate with itself.

      Governments don't like that - If one company gets away with it, the rest will join in very quickly.

      However, in this situation, Microsoft still has
      • Re:holy crap! (Score:3, Insightful)

        by lgw ( 121541 )
        Nah, Microsoft doesn't have that power. For one thing, the US government wouldn't put up with it (too many other powerful companies would be hurt). For another, MS source code isn't exactly secret, just illegal to use. The EU could create a company for maintenance, give them all the MS soruce code that's ever been leaked, give them the resources to reverse-engineer anything that hadn't been leaked, and then engage in predatory dumping of the MS OS knockoff in all possible markets.

        Attacking the critical
      • Re:holy crap! (Score:3, Insightful)

        by penguinoid ( 724646 )
        Kinda scary to think that a single company could destroy whole governments with just a few carefully-planned steps. And THAT justifies the $5M fine per day - Fear that Microsoft might have realized just how much power they have, not just in a monetary sense, but in a critical infrastructure sense.

        Not really. For one thing, governements and any important businesses will have daily (or more frequent) backups of anything important, redundancy, and also a variety of operating systems (even if these are not o
  • Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Friday March 18, 2005 @10:16AM (#11975456)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • I don't belive it had to GPL compatible, however it had to be usable by smaller companies and M$ license fee was too expensive.

      They could probably comply with the EU by cutting the license fee by 75%.
    • It's simpler, really (Score:5, Informative)

      by Moraelin ( 679338 ) on Friday March 18, 2005 @10:33AM (#11975630) Journal
      No, the EU didn't say MS had to GPL any program of their own. The EU just said they had to license their protocols and APIs to everyone, in a non-discriminating way.

      Again, this doesn't mean that Windows had to be suddenly GPLed, but that the APIs should be available to _anyone_ who wants to write a program for Windows. Hardly an unreasonable demand, don't you think?

      Well, MS basically thought it was smart and slapped a license on those protocols and APIs that basically said you can't share that info with anyone, or show your code to anyone. Basically a legalese way of saying "ok, but you can't use those specs in an OSS program."

      Which basically already places a rather unreasonable restriction, when the whole idea in the first place was to make that info available to everyone.
      • Technically, it is available to anyone, or any group, willing to pay the licensing fee. I think the EU is overstepping its bounds by requiring the information to be completely public. They are basically pandering to their own OSS projects and pushing their own agenda. They obviously want the APIs to be open so that they can fund OSS groups to compete with Microsoft. It's an understandable line of thinking, but that doesn't make it not based on some agenda that benefits their own businesses (which, of co
        • BS. Plain and simple. The EU said that everything had to be compatiblewith the various licenses out there; if it is only available under a CLOSED SOURCE license then various free and open source projects are stymied. The EU, I believe, has no real interest in whether Windows is released under a proprietary license or no, it just wants other projects to be able to be compatible if they choose.
        • You know, I'm otherwise fairly pro-MS, by Slashdot standards. (In much the same way as being right wing in the EU still counts as left wing in the US, and viceversa.) I do believe that MS has all the right in the world to keep the Windows/Office/IE/whatever sources secret. I don't believe that making money or being a corporation is a capital sin. And worse yet, I do believe that they did make a better product.

          (Or more precisely, that everyone else had a crappier product. Who was gonna win the OS wars? OS/2
  • $5m a day? (Score:5, Funny)

    by chman ( 746363 ) on Friday March 18, 2005 @10:19AM (#11975483)
    I was wondering how Brown was going to afford those bus passes for the elderly. He's a sneaky one, that Chancellor.
  • by AltGrendel ( 175092 ) <`su.0tixe' `ta' `todhsals-ga'> on Friday March 18, 2005 @10:19AM (#11975490) Homepage
    Microsoft seems to be pretending that they are dealing with a customer, not a goverment. This kind of tactic will shoot them in the foot because they are ignoring the sovereignty of the EU. The EU won't put up with it since it will dilute their power.
    • The EU won't put up with it since it will dilute their power.

      Sure they will. Microsoft bought Ireland cheap, raised their standard of living, and thereby leveraged their influence over the European Union. This has already paid off, and will continue to do so. Take a look at how software patents have been literally shoved down the Europeans' throats, against their will, despite overwhelming votes against them in the token democratic portions of the EU governance regime, despite opposition from most EU m
    • Microsoft seems to be pretending that they are dealing with a customer, not a goverment.

      Probably because they are used to dealing with government in the US.

      This kind of tactic will shoot them in the foot because they are ignoring the sovereignty of the EU. The EU won't put up with it since it will dilute their power.

      Assuming Microsoft cannot bribe their way around it.
    • If the EU is so sovereign, why don't they just take one seat in the UN? Oh wait, they want to pretend they're just one giant nation in the economic and political arena but they want to keep all their votes in the UN.
  • by Faust7 ( 314817 ) on Friday March 18, 2005 @10:20AM (#11975493) Homepage
    If Microsoft don't come up with a solution that the EU finds acceptable, then they can be fined $5m a day.

    I have no illusions that Microsoft would actually pay that - it's an exorbitant amount.

    The worst punishment the EU can mete out is to bar Microsoft from doing business in participating countries.

    If/when that happens, what will European Average Joe consumer reaction be?
    • by Ashtead ( 654610 ) on Friday March 18, 2005 @10:29AM (#11975598) Journal
      Barring MS from the EU might make too much trouble for each country.

      One thing that might happen, however, is enforced free licensing of the MS patents that, according to the article, MS claim would be infringed otherwise. Along with forced disclosure of the interfaces, and probably some guarantees that this openness would be preserved in future revisions.

    • >If/when that happens, what will European Average Joe consumer reaction be?

      something like trying to shout "aaaaaahahahahahahahahhaaaaa", and "yeeeessssssssss!!!" at the same time, leading to a kind of choking sound.
    • Should the EU block MS from selling their OSes, you can bet that the commodity machine market will quickly switch over to alternative OSes.

      What's missing in wide-scale adoption of linux is a large commitment by retailers to sell and support Linux-based systems.

      The average user doesn't care if he/she's running windows or linux or OSX or Commodore64. They don't care if their browser is IE or Mozilla. They just want the computer to provide the tools they need.

      If they can browse the web, send emails, upload photos from their camera, and open files from work they'll be happy.

      In the short-run, there might be some headaches for consumers. But in the long-run the result would be a huge install base for linux/OSX.
    • That could be the best thing to happen in a while. People will have to get non MS stuff and realize it's better.
    • Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Friday March 18, 2005 @10:43AM (#11975744)
      Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • The worst punishment the EU can mete out is to bar Microsoft from doing business in participating countries.

      That would probably hurt them as much as the $5 million a day fine. The EU probably accounts for nearly half of Microsoft's market, if not more.
    • ...If/when that happens, what will European Average Joe consumer reaction be?...

      If the EU phrases the edict correctly ("We are punishing Microsoft because they will not adhere to principles, and do not have the best interests in mind for developers), then the reaction will be a positive one, and might encourage a switch to another platform, where support for said platform is implied by the EU gov't.

      If phrased badly, well then, there's liable to be a riot in the streets.
    • I have no illusions that Microsoft will pay that fine. While it's not exactly chump change, it still isn't enough to dissuade them from moving forward, as they can still easily show a profit.

      Don't kid yourself, this really is a small fine for a company the size of Microsoft. For all companies, small fines are just the cost of doing business. They'll just raise the price of some of the products elsewhere to cover the loss in profit.
      • Don't kid yourself, this really is a small fine for a company the size of Microsoft. For all companies, small fines are just the cost of doing business. They'll just raise the price of some of the products elsewhere to cover the loss in profit.

        This is especially a problem with fining a monopoly. Since with their monopoly intact the only level of fines which would be an issue are those large enough to cause immediate cash flow problems.
    • by Gorath99 ( 746654 ) on Friday March 18, 2005 @10:57AM (#11975895)
      If Microsoft don't come up with a solution that the EU finds acceptable, then they can be fined $5m a day.


      I have no illusions that Microsoft would actually pay that - it's an exorbitant amount.

      The worst punishment the EU can mete out is to bar Microsoft from doing business in participating countries.

      If/when that happens, what will European Average Joe consumer reaction be?

      Why do so many people think that multinationals can get away with anything? (Please don't take this as a personal attack. I'm genuinely amazed.)

      Assets can be seized, managers who willfully make a company dodge the law can be held personally accountable, government money can be spend differenly, government advisories can recommend against using their products, etc., etc. None of these things prevent MS from doing business in the EU.

      Sure, hypothetically MS might decide to withdraw from the EU at all, but I bet their investors would be none too happy about that. And it would be even worse for their reputation. Who would ever want to do business with a company that can just decide to effectively disappear? Who's to say they wouldn't pull the same stunt in other regions? Doing such a thing is guaranteed to make to world pay serious attention to open source and that's the very last thing MS wants.

      If the EU is genuinely pissed, MS had better pay attention. They've simply got too much to lose. Sure, they can stall and try to get a better deal and they might even get away with it, but the one thing they can't do is pretend they're untouchable, because they're not.
    • You can... like... buy software?
  • by Noryungi ( 70322 ) on Friday March 18, 2005 @10:20AM (#11975496) Homepage Journal
    As a reminder, Microsoft makes up to $ 1 billion of profit per month according to Cringely [pbs.org].

    $ 5m per day is something like $ 1.8 billion dollars per year. So, it hurts bad, but it's still something Microsoft can afford.

    This being said, the EU could also decide to slowly raise the fines over time. That would probably make Microsoft move. I just hope they are not going to introduce Windows XP Starter Edition in Europe... Scratch that, I hope MS is going to do just that, since that would make many europeans switch to Linux.
  • Patience (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Necrotica ( 241109 )
    Why do so many governments show so much patience with a company already convicted of a crime? $5 million a day? Ha! Everyone knows that's not going to hurt Microsoft. Make it $100 million dollars per day and we'll see results.

    Judges and governments alike should yell "ENOUGH ALREADY!" and enforce the laws to the limit. Period. This is ridiculous.
    • Re:Patience (Score:3, Insightful)

      by flumps ( 240328 )
      Just so as we are clear, the EU is more of a governing body or confederation, [wikipedia.org] not a government. Most people (esp. in the UK) think that most EU politicians sit on their behinds making up laws nobody needs or wants (such as the standard length of bananas). However to be fair we do tend to jump to the EU especially when it comes to Human Rights.

      Quite frankly tho, IMHO Microsoft will have more problems with this than just owing cash. I believe they have a reputation to uphold, and that is worth more than
  • and.... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by commo1 ( 709770 ) on Friday March 18, 2005 @10:27AM (#11975575)
    The US Government should follow suit... no pun intended.

    Seriously, in the global economy, trade similarities are going to become more and more important, especially with the US economy taking a very important second place to the EU. They will have to comply to trade. The US is no longer the bully hey once were.
  • by ites ( 600337 ) on Friday March 18, 2005 @10:28AM (#11975582) Journal
    These fines are being levied by the same EU Commission that is forcing through changes in EU patent law designed to allow companies like Microsoft to profit handsomely? Which EU commission shows all signs of being... how can I put this politely... bribed by Microsoft?

    Why do I feel we are watching a made-for-public-viewing spectacle that will ultimately result in a trivial fine being paid and the continuation of business as usual?
  • by Ganellon ( 782516 ) on Friday March 18, 2005 @10:28AM (#11975590)
    Bill Gates may be a British knight, but he is not yet emperor of Europe.

    I checked on Bill's /. poll response. Evidently, he's not interested in Emporor. He's holding out for Kwisatz Haderach.

  • by korielgraculus ( 591914 ) on Friday March 18, 2005 @10:35AM (#11975645)
    That the EU has the right to demand 5% of GLOBAL revenue, rather than European revenue, especially as the agreement they reached isn't even applicable outside of Europe.

    Question for our US cousins, will this 5% be taken out of Microsoft before or after they pay US tazes? And how does it feel to be subsidising European justice?

  • by cheezemonkhai ( 638797 ) on Friday March 18, 2005 @10:41AM (#11975716) Homepage
    Stick Balmer in a Room with RMS.

    Make Balmer listen to RMS until all problems are sorted.

    Should take about 30 second, oh or Balmers head may explode. ;)
  • by Foofoobar ( 318279 ) on Friday March 18, 2005 @10:48AM (#11975788)
    European Union Anti-trust measure? HA HA!
  • Doesn't! (Score:4, Funny)

    by bahamat ( 187909 ) on Friday March 18, 2005 @11:12AM (#11976093) Homepage
    If Microsoft don't come up with . . .


    Doesn't you moron! DOESN'T!
  • by Ridgelift ( 228977 ) on Friday March 18, 2005 @11:20AM (#11976184)
    FTA: "So far, you don't need a licence to write software for Microsoft operating systems."

    I don't know why the idea of Microsoft charging people a licensing fee to develop software for Windows never crossed my mind before.

    Perhaps Microsoft wants a class-system of software development for their OS. If you want to write simple things, no charge. If you want to make data-related queries to services like Active Directory or hardware, you pay a small licensing fee. If you want to take advantage of the latest and greatest features (especially when Microsoft has a competing product in the area such as Exchange Server) you will pay through the nose.
  • by teksno ( 838560 ) on Friday March 18, 2005 @11:33AM (#11976344)
    could this mean that we'll see linux distros with NTFS write in the near future.....
  • Charles Foster Kane (Score:5, Interesting)

    by IainHere ( 536270 ) on Friday March 18, 2005 @11:33AM (#11976345)
    Fining Microsoft a few million dollars reminds me of something Orson Welles said as Citizen Kane:


    You're right, I did lose a million dollars last year. I expect to lose a million dollars this year. I expect to lose a million dollars next year.

    You know, Mr. Thatcher, at the rate of a million dollars a year, I'll have to close this place - in 60 years.
  • A Corporate View (Score:5, Insightful)

    by johnos ( 109351 ) on Friday March 18, 2005 @02:16PM (#11978229)
    All this arguing about $5 million per day and why should MS care what the EU thinks is completely missing the point. Mega multi-nationals like MS are the servants of capital markets. 95% of the time, the markets don't give a shit what kind of trouble a company has if the profits are rolling in as expected. But, trouble like getting shut out of a market the size of the EU would be disaster. The markets would punish MS severely.

    A company that can't do business in the EU is not a global company, and their growth prospects would be drastically reduced. Remember that there's nothing personal here. The stock is worth the market's estimation of all future profits discounted for inflation, capital cost, risk, etc. $5 million a day in fines would have a much lower impact on MS' stock price. That's because the fine is quantified, predictible and likely short-term. But to be shut out of a market the size of the EU is unprecidented in modern corporate history. No corporate leader could possibly risk such an event. Imagine the shareholder lawsuits if MS stock price fell because they refused to comply with a the law in a juristiction the size of the EU. MS would knuckle under far before such a thing could happen.

"The vast majority of successful major crimes against property are perpetrated by individuals abusing positions of trust." -- Lawrence Dalzell

Working...