Canadian Privacy Law v. E-Mail Harvesting 279
sbowles writes "Canada's Privacy Commisioner has ruled that a business e-mail address is personal information protected under the federal privacy legislation (PIPEDA). Law professor Michael Geist (a leading e-commerce and privacy law expert) received an unsolicited request to buy seasons tickets from the local football team. His e-mail address had been harvested from a University website. The ruling indicated that 'You are allowed to collect and use publicly available information, but the use has to be directly related to the purpose for which the information appears in a directory or notice.'"
Public Service Announcement (Score:5, Informative)
Support Celiac Disease Research [komar.org]
Re:Public Service Announcement (Score:5, Informative)
One day, we started receiving hundreds upon thousands of bounce messages, replies, and "TAKE ME OFF YOUR LIST" messages. Turns out one of our (apparently mutual) service providers broke something on their end, and was sending all their mail to us (in fact, specifically to our Customer Sales Manager).
There was over 600MB of mail, and I saved it to a CD somewhere. We tried for weeks to get in contact with the sales and tech people at the Renegades, and they never returned our phone calls. Clearly they don't really care about their customers.
Re:Public Service Announcement (Score:3, Funny)
Isn't the purpose of a publically posted address.. (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Isn't the purpose of a publically posted addres (Score:5, Insightful)
My phone number's in the book, that doesn't mean I want you to ring me and see if I'm interested in double glazing.
Re:Isn't the purpose of a publically posted addres (Score:3, Insightful)
But the use of that tool shouldn't open you up to having to sort through thousands of mass-mailed advertisements that you could care less about.
Re:Isn't the purpose of a publically posted addres (Score:3, Interesting)
I think thats what the law is about. If I don't want it, leave me alone.
Just because you think that I may be a customer doesn't mean that you have the right to disrupt me.
Re:Isn't the purpose of a publically posted addres (Score:2)
That would explain why none of Paris Hilton's friends are returning my calls..
Re:Isn't the purpose of a publically posted addres (Score:3, Interesting)
How would they know you wanted it if they didn't ask you?
To wit, most people would respond:
I'll let you know when I need it.
Which they will then respond:
How do you know you need it if you don't know about it?
And so on...
Which, to me, is sort of like a cat/dog chasing its tail. It didn't know it was there until it looked and then the elusive tail is hard to catch. But round and round they go until at last they are either exhausted from trying or they'
Re:Isn't the purpose of a publically posted addres (Score:4, Informative)
To me, bulk-mailing is similar to such phone directory brute-forcing. It is intrusive, wasteful and annoying.
The CRTC allows ADADs for appointment confirmations and public safety announcements, both legitimate, reasonable and pertinent reasons. This law simply brings these CRTC rules to eMail. For the record, even though CRTC stands for "Canadian Radio and Telecomunication Commitee", Internet is considered an "Information service" which is not (yet) under its jurisdiction.
Re:Isn't the purpose of a publically posted addres (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Isn't the purpose of a publically posted addres (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm intrigued and confused. There are two freedoms: the freedom from being pestered by someone selling something, and the freedom to sell something. Which takes precedence?
The bit about a surveillance society loses me...how would such a society alleviate the spam problem? (Incidentally, I f
Re:Isn't the purpose of a publically posted addres (Score:2)
Royalties (Score:3, Interesting)
Could this be SPAM where the spammer pays you.
Duh (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Duh (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Duh (Score:3, Informative)
I was under the impression that Stats Can runs
a test on any data they release to make sure
that it doesn't identify anybody, even by
solving a set of equations.
In addition to this, I believe researchers have
to receive ethics clearance for the use of the
data, which obliges them to keep it confidential.
Re:Duh (Score:2)
i.e. If I took an advertising/spam company to court for messaging all of my clientele in my domain, I have something to back it up.
Too bad... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Too bad... (Score:3, Funny)
Mwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!
-- Anonymous Canadian
Re:Too bad... (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, just like US law. Oh, wait, that's becoming untrue.
Re:We're already there (Score:2)
Except the PATRIOT act extends a US law to apply to foreign nationals who have not necessarily even been in the US.
Re:Too bad... (Score:3, Funny)
Too bad US law ... (Score:5, Funny)
As opposed to US law which applies
I think Monty Python put it well: "I favor a tax on all foreigners living abroad."
-kgj
And also (Score:2)
Thumbs up for Canada (Score:2, Insightful)
*Reasonable from a legal POW, none that it would change anything.
Re:Thumbs up for Canada (Score:2)
Re:Thumbs up for Italy too (Score:5, Insightful)
One of those countries is Italy (where I am from), and italian law has worked well (since September 2003) so far to deter spammers. Fines go up to 90.000 Euro or 3 years of jail.
It's only a pity that *all* the spam I get origins in the USA (sent through various open relays scattered around the world), is in english language and targetted to US-citizens. So there's no way for me to get one of those mortgages... :-(
ms
Re:Thumbs up for Italy too (Score:3, Interesting)
All of my spam is also US centric apart from the odd thing in chinese every now and then (about 1 in a few thousands). At least that's what I gather from the glances I take in my spam folder every now and then before I delete it.
Home page (Score:5, Informative)
I could have seen much further had it not been for the giants standing on my shoulders
Re:Home page (Score:2)
http://www.lawbytes.com/ [lawbytes.com]
actuallly... (Score:3, Interesting)
My wife does consulting and sometimes she contacts sites (partner@somesite.com) to explore possible partnerships. Well, it has happened now twice that she was reported as a spammer. The first time, our ISP (city-run cable company) immediately disconnected us with no explanation. When I finally contacted them, they were unapologetic and threatening at first. Needless to say, we switched ISPs.
The bottom line is, I hate spam, too, but sometimes people are far too trigger happy to report legitimate business inquiries as spam.
"explore possible partnerships" ? (Score:2)
Re:actuallly... (Score:2, Insightful)
And on a business note, your wife really shouldn't be spamming "partners". A hard copy letter or phone call would work much better. It goes to show that at least two people don't feel that your wife's email are "legitimate business inquiries"
Every day... (Score:5, Insightful)
I think this makes an excellent assertion that placing an email in a specific location should limit it to the purpose it was placed there for. If I own a business and provide customers and interested parties with contact info on the company webpage, that address should not be spammed with penis growth ads and I should be legally entitled to damages for having to install spam filters and pay admins to further maintain them.
Re:Every day... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's nice and cool (love cold climate), people are nice, rights are respected, gay people can marry (I'm not gay but I don't see why not keep the option open for the hell of it), and they have that Maple Leaf T-Shirt thing going on.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Every day... (Score:3, Informative)
In Europe (EU/EEA) there are whole government agencies whose purpose is to protect citizens' privacy. For the most part, it is believed to be natural that the government does this for its citizens. After all, the government is by the people for the people, there to protect citizens' interests...
(in theory anyway...)
Actually (Score:2)
As for SPAM, light spam filtering is capturing 7-10k spams in a month...
End result, spam is costing us resources. Resources are money, and therefore they are costing the government money. Why wouldn't gov't want
Re:Every day... (Score:3, Interesting)
I mean, honestly, can you imagine a better group of immigrants than young, educated,
I wonder if it's a precident. (Score:2, Interesting)
It's a little more complex than that but the two cases sound similar. Also, as far as I know, the Privacy Commissioner doesn't have the powers of a judge. Having said that, I wonder if the e-mail case has revealed something about Canadian law that
Re:I wonder if it's a precident. (Score:2)
WestJet hired an Air Canada employee. He still had access to the system (I forget why, possibly because he still was permitted to buy tickets). WestJet used his login to scrape the site, against the employee's contract/NDA, using the data to run competing flights.
Re:I wonder if it's a precident. (Score:2)
But that's what makes them Commies, doesn't it? (Score:5, Funny)
Now get in line and leave your luggage on the platform. You're only being relocated to the east.
Re:But that's what makes them Commies, doesn't it? (Score:2)
_20th_Best_Post_Ever_
Re:But that's what makes them Commies, doesn't it? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:But that's what makes them Commies, doesn't it? (Score:2)
Re:But that's what makes them Commies, doesn't it? (Score:2)
Re:But that's what makes them Commies, doesn't it? (Score:5, Funny)
Mpegs?
Easy to circumvent - (Score:3, Funny)
On a side note, would you like to buy some football tickets?
Thanks!
Re:Easy to circumvent - (Score:2)
two sides to this issue (Score:2, Insightful)
Spam is evil. I hate receiving it and hate to be pestered for stuff I never wanted in the first place. This professor may have no interest in football and I respect the fact that he did not only not want to buy season tickets, he didn't want to have to turn down the offer TWICE. There are plenty of offers I have to turn down that I wish had never happened, most of them by email and crude or gross or annoying. I maintain my email account, however, because it is worth the p
Re:two sides to this issue (Score:3, Informative)
They aren't "university affiliates", except to the extent that I bet they use their stadium.
This is a case of a business harvesting email addresses from an organization's website and sending unsolicited messages.
Re:two sides to this issue (Score:3, Informative)
Nope, the Renegades play at Frank Clair stadium, which isn't used by any of the Universities.
They're very separate organizations.
Re:two sides to this issue (Score:2)
No, just click off the phone. Exact same amount of effort.
Re:two sides to this issue (Score:4, Informative)
I couldn't let this pass. I don't think you get it.
The amount of effort required to send that mail is infinitely smaller than the amount of effort required to call me. Both the costs and the time consumed in sending a bulk e-mail are orders of magnitude less than telephone or bulk mail.
That means many many organizations are doing it, both spam and legitimate, and targeting much larger groups of people.
Having a publicly available mail address is part of my job, and I post in public forums and on websites using my plain email, unobsfucated so that even the most casual browser will be able to contact me if they have questions about what I post. I have used the same email for 7 years in this role.
My price? Several thousand spam e-mail a day. Until you have had to deal with this yourself, you don't know the cost of SPAM to business, or why legislation and policies to deal with it are a good thing.
And respectfully, if you can't see there is a problem with harvesting e-mail addresses and sending unsolicited mail, then you are exactly the kind of person I hate dealing with in our marketing department.
Re:two sides to this issue (Score:3, Insightful)
They are university affiliates, after all.
No, they're the local CFL team, not a university team.
But seriously...the effort required to sidestep spam (click it into your junk box) is actually far slighter than the effort required to sidestep a solicitor's phone call or turn away a caller in the flesh. If a salesman is going to bug me, please let him (oh, please) send me an email instead of telephoning me at home!
The point is that it's so much cheaper to
Rant on the nature of Canada (Score:4, Interesting)
http://kfmonkey.blogspot.com/2005/02/oh-oh-canada
This is what defines Canada's virtue to me. Canada does not convert. Canada heals. Canada leads. First among the nations, creating the Peacekeepers. Pushing the Land Mine ban. Still not perfect, but doing their best at reconciling issues with the aboriginal peoples even as other nations such as Australia choke on their responsibility. Allowing Quebec its poetic, myopic thrashings. I'm always a little dismayed at native Canadians who whinny about Canada's missing identity. I, as an adopted son, know damn well what Canada is. "Come, have a pint, I don't mind your odd accent -- mine's a bit dodgy too. Your business is your business, we can all be friends as long as you buy the next round."
Re:Rant on the nature of Canada (Score:2)
Until the powers that be decide to pull their thumbs out of their collective asses, and actually articulate in real terms what we stand for and what we are prepared to do, thats all we'll ever have.
Re:Rant on the nature of Canada (Score:2)
So you're saying that all Canadians are scroungers?
Nice but inaccurate (Score:3, Insightful)
We still think of ourselves as people who do the right things on the international stage, but our charitable donations per capita don't rank very high either.
In the last 10-15 years, we've become a people who cling to a certain set of values but don't pay for them in blood, sweat or dollars. As a consequence, about all we hav
Please annex Florida (Score:2, Funny)
(C)anada (Score:3, Interesting)
Coincidentally... (Score:3, Interesting)
Obtain Consent - Every organization is responsible for getting consent from the person whose information will be collected, used and/or disclosed. Consent is defined as voluntary agreement with what is being done and may be implied or expressed. In addition, the individual must be told the details of why, how and when the information is being collected, used or disclosed.
consent (Score:2)
Wow. Here in Norway, consent must be explicit, as well as freely given and informed, cf. Personal Data Act 2 nr 7. Implicit consent is a no-go.
Of Interesting Note, Geist Gave Them a Chance Too (Score:5, Informative)
He told us the whole scenario, and clearly pointed out that after receiving the first spam, he responded, specifically asking that they no longer use his email address for promotional matters.
They ignored his request and sent him a second round of spam. That's when he filed the complaint against them. And won.
It's not only a matter of spam. It's a clear-cut case of ignoring removal requests can be bad for you.
Re:Well... (Score:5, Informative)
I should be able to post my email on the net without fear of some shameless spammer harvesting it. I finnaly posted my personal address on just a few forums and now I receive at least 50 spam a day. I never consented for it to be mailed to (use a hotmail account for web sign-ins) so only a damn bot could have gotten it.
No offense, but that was just naive (Score:4, Informative)
I should be able to post my email on the net without fear of some shameless spammer harvesting it.
Yes, and I should be able to walk around all parts of a major metropolitan area without fear of getting mugged. Guess what? That is just not true. One must be cognizant of surroundings and protect oneself appropriately, which brings us to the next item...
I finnaly posted my personal address on just a few forums and now I receive at least 50 spam a day.
In all seriousness, what did you expect? The practice of address harvesting from newsgroups, etc. has been well known for ages.
I never consented for it to be mailed to
Not to put too fine a point on it, but where on earth did you get the idea that your consent had anything to do with people sending you email?
Re:Well... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Well... (Score:2)
Any spambot writer worth his salt will review the collected address list and fine tune it to correct the most common human-readable modifications (and there are a finite number that still remain comprehensible to humans). Certain s/NO@SPAM/@/ will be in any reasonable cleanup script, don't you think? Any address with "SPAM" in it is a dead giveaway that it should be corrected, and
Re:Well... (Score:2)
Re:Well... (Score:3, Insightful)
So you won't mind if I send tons of unwanted email to you and swamp you with spam on AIM and MSN? You have both your email address and your AIM/MSN usernames available for everyone to see (on your livejournal profile), after all...
Re:Well... (Score:3, Insightful)
"Hi! My name's Bernard. I'd give you out my e-mail, but i can't give it out in public. Please contact me in person or send me a post card to the following PO Box, so i can answer you back. Good day!"
Moral of the story: e-mail was meant for private communication, not for marketing purposes. Allowing spammers to harvest e-mail, is going against the very reason why e-mail was invented.
Re:Well... (Score:2)
Re:Well... (Score:2)
Not that im argueing for the spammers, Id kill them all just as quick as the next man.
Re:Well... (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry buddy, thats exactly what the law is against. You have a certain amount of privacy, including your information.
>If you don't want to deal with it, don't put it out in the first place.
OR can you make a law so you can put it out there. Some laws protect corporations more, some laws protect individuals more. This falls into the later.
Re:Well... (Score:2)
I understand that. But there the idea is that now you have some sort of support, like someone big like the federal government. Hell, you don't even need to do anything, just complain, with documentation, to the Privacy Commission and let them at it.
Re:Well... (Score:2)
It's a public domain, anyone who chooses to can contact you wether or not it's against the law.
Well, if it's actually against the law, then I'd warrant your statement is complete baloney.
Having said that, your phone number is probably listed in the phone book. Does this mean that you consent to all of those telemarketers calling you up? It's in the public, after all.
Re:Well... (Score:3, Insightful)
You shouldn't have to hide information that is useful for others to legitimately contact you so that it won't be abused by advertisers and sleazy marketers.
Re:just be self responsible (Score:5, Funny)
Re:just be self responsible (Score:2, Insightful)
The government publishes Your e-mail address WITH THE GOAL that someone can CLEARLY IDENTIFY valid lawyers in the state.
You, and the spammers are not allowed to use this data except from t
Re:just be self responsible (Score:2)
Re:just be self responsible (Score:2, Funny)
Well, it does help us to approximate the size of wall we'll need when the revolution comes...
Re:Sniffing? (Score:2)
Re:Sniffing? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sniffing? (Score:2)
Oh, they can, but not legally.
Re:Sniffing? (Score:2)
Re:Cana-"duh", does it again! (Score:5, Informative)
Au contraire; Canadian privacy laws have actually helped businesses, as individuals (customers, etc) are able to trust that their personal data is safe and proceed to do business. This was even discussed on /. a while back; I'll try to see if I can find the sources later on.
Re:Cana-"duh", does it again! (Score:5, Insightful)
And we'd like to keep it that way. But with the US making laws that say any of our data passing through a US company is subject to the conditions of PATRIOT act.
I'd like to see India or some other location which routinely handles US data decree those US citizens whose data passes through are subjected to local laws. That kind of extra-teritorial grab bugs me.
Here's hoping we keep a sane climate on privacy here in Canada and the rest of the world.
Sorry (Score:2)
Stop pretending you don't live in a client state. The Empire has you, Neo.
Re:Cana-"duh", does it again! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Cana-"duh", does it again! (Score:5, Insightful)
This behaviour isn't anti-corporate. It's pro-corporate. What happens when Amazon decides that the purpose of their listings is only to buy stuff from Amazon, and that all other uses of that scraped information is illegal? Allowing spam harvesters is IMO a small price to pay for the rest of us being allowed to use the contents of websites for purposes unintended by their owners.
Peter
Re:Cana-"duh", does it again! (Score:5, Insightful)
Canadian Football.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Canadian Football.... (Score:2)
They aren't less talented, they're just exhausted!
Re:Football? (Score:2)
American football mostly.
Canadian Football has only 3 downs instead of 4, the field is considerably bigger, and lots of other little rule differences. And of course, the best-paid CFL QB makes a fraction of what the lowliest NFL benchwarmer makes.
Re:Football? (Score:2)
It takes real men to get a first down in three downs instead of four. IMO way more entertaining, even if we have second rate players and NFL rejects.
And FWIW Baltimore had a CFL team, along with a few other US cities. Baltimore was the only successfuly one, and then the NFL caught on that the CFL was doing well in Baltimore, and thus the Baltimore Ravens were born, and the CFL Baltimore Stallions moved to Montreal to become the Montreal Allouettes.
Re:Football? (Score:2)
Still, our QB's and WR's admittedly are a little second rate.
Re:And why shouldn't it be? (Score:3, Interesting)
In Hungary, You are not allowed to deal with personal data (store, collect, sell, use, anything) except with the prior permission of the owner.
If somebody violates the law, you can push it to the Ombudsman ("Parliamentary Commissioner for Data Protection and F
Follow the money (Score:2)