Gates tried to Blackmail Danish Government

mocm writes "The Inquirer has a story about how Bill Gates tried to pressure the Danish prime minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen into accepting the European Union's proposed directive on software patents by threating to terminate the 800 jobs at Navision, which had been acquired by Microsoft." Update: 02/16 00:41 GMT by T : cfelde points out a CNET story which says that "The European vice president of Microsoft Business Solutions, Klaus Holse Andersen, denied on Tuesday that the jobs at Navision were ever at risk." Believe who you'd like.

Not blackmail

[loudmax]

That would be extortion, not blackmail.

Re:Not blackmail

[aendeuryu]

From m-w.com: Main Entry: blackmail ... 2 a : extortion or coercion by threats ...

Po-tay-to, po-tah-to.

Re:Not blackmail

[phasm42]

You left out the rest of the sentence: [blockquote]2 a : extortion or coercion by threats especially of public exposure or criminal prosecution b : the payment that is extorted[/blockquote] Blackmail is a particular kind of extortion.

Re:"especially" != "specifically"

[jadavis]

English is a powerful language and the nuances and connotations matter. If you ignore them, you may be technically correct according to the dictionary, but you have failed to effectively communicate.

"Especially" is used to give you hints about the connotation. In this case, the connotation of blackmail is that you are threatening to reveal something.

Re:Not blackmail

[spottedkangaroo]

Po-tay-to, po-tah-to.

Mash 'em, boil 'em, stick 'em in a stew?

Re:Not blackmail

[aendeuryu]

Mash 'em, boil 'em, stick 'em in a stew?
But stay away from Russia, where the taters eat you...

This post is likely going to get modded Offtopic. I blame you.

Re:Not blackmail

[DenDave]

Blackmail: legitimate sales method, most effective in government Source: Microsoft Dictionary

Re:Not blackmail

[IO ERROR]

Either way, it shows just how low Microsoft can go.

What's next, Mafia-style "hits" on politicians who don't do what Microsoft wants?

Re:Not blackmail

[Pieroxy]

If at least you would have read the article, you would have seen that Microsoft is not the only one company in the entire universe to do this. So no, is does not show how low Microsoft can go, it just shows how low any company can go.

Stop putting all evil on Bill's shoulders.

Re:Not blackmail

[Dcnjoe60]

So you are saying that since some other companies may do this, too, that it's not low of Microsoft to do so? No matter how many companies may or may not do this, doesn't make it right and Microsoft should be slammed for attempting it (along with any other company). Since Bill Gates calls himself the Chief Architect at Microsoft, then any wrong-doings, evil or not, most definately are on his shoulders.

Re:Not blackmail

[duffahtolla]

No... what is being said that if you make more noise about Microsoft doing this than any other company that does this exact thing, then you are a hypocrit.

Whether we like it or not, Microsoft is a big part of everybodys life, especially slashdotters. When it does something nasty, or something nice, it will naturally be more in the lime light than say Buonjorno.

This is not being hypocritical, it's being human.

Hypocritical would be saying that its bad for Microsoft to do it, but not bad for Apple to

Re:Not blackmail

[anon*127.0.0.1]

You mean Microsoft isn't the only company in the history of forever to use the threat or promise of jobs to try to get favorable decisions from governments?

I'm shocked. Next you'll be telling me that companies decide where to build new factories based on what kind of tax breaks they can get.

Re:Not blackmail

[araemo]

Why should we not hold microsoft accounable for doing something 'evil' like this? I'd like to hold every company that does this accountable, but most of the time we don't actually hear about it.

Re:Not blackmail

[The Hobo]

What you said is fine, but to be blunt excusing behaviour because others do it when it isn't right isn't right in the first place.

Re:Not blackmail

[fymidos]

Al Capone was not the "only one person in the entire universe" to do criminal stuff. Actually in his days a *LOT* of people did it. This doesn't make it right and whoever pulls stuff like that deserves to be punished.

>Stop putting all evil on Bill's shoulders.

Oh, come on, he personally travels around, threatening people, and this should not be on his shoulders, because ... ?!?!?

Re:Not blackmail

[superpulpsicle]

In godfather the movie series they specifically not use the word MAFIA.

In M$ they specifically not use the word SATANIC.

Re:Not blackmail

[Zhe Mappel]

If at least you would have read the article, you would have seen that Microsoft is not the only one company in the entire universe to do this. So no, is does not show how low Microsoft can go, it just shows how low any company can go.

Your Honor, my client stands accused of cutting deals to harm his neighbor, bribing the investigating officer, strong-arming witnesses, and launching "initiatives" in which he vows to indulge in more of the same.

Far from reflecting personally upon my client, these charges merely show how low any human being can go!

Stop putting all evil on Bill's shoulders.

Furthermore, my client is tired of these accusations, which have been repeated on a regular basis for over a decade. Hasn't my client suffered enough?

Re:Not blackmail

[rspress]

Actually since this is Microsofts SOP Bill is open to getting all the evil put on his head.

If, as microsoft claims, their product is the best and most cost effective then why do they need to pressure politicians, smear the competition, etc.

Standard Oil did exactly the same thing and they got a lot more bad press. Getty was cosidered truly evil was displayed that way in the press. Gates and Balmer are doing the same thing and are pretty much getting a free ride.

Obligatory Simpsons Scene

[Anonymous Coward]

Back at the peaceful Simpsons house. Homer is reading "Internet for Dummies".

HOMER
Oh, they have the Internet on computers now!

MARGE
Homer, Bill Gates is here.

HOMER
Bill Gates?! Millionaire computer nerd Bill Gates! Oh my god. Oh my god. Get out of sight, Marge. I don't want this to look like a two-bit operation.

Marge groans and rolls her eyes. Bill Gates and two "associates" enter.

GATES
Mr. Simpson?

HOMER
You don't look so rich.

GATES
Don't let the haircut fool you, I am exceedingly wealthy.

HOMER
(quietly to Marge) Get a load of the bowl-job, Marge!

GATES
Your Internet ad was brought to my attention, but I can't figure out what, if anything, CompuGlobalHyperMegaNet does, so rather than risk competing with you, I've decided simply to buy you out.

Homer and Marge step aside to talk privately.

HOMER
This is it Marge. I've poured my heart and soul into this business and now it's finally paying off. (covering his mouth) We're rich! Richer than astronauts.

MARGE
Homer quiet. Acquire the deal.

HOMER
(to Gates) I reluctantly accept your proposal!

GATES
Well everyone always does. Buy 'em out, boys!

Bill Gates companions begin to trash the "office".

HOMER
Hey, what the hell's going on!

GATES
Oh, I didn't get rich by writing a lot of checks!

Bill Gates lets out a maniacal laugh. Homer and Marge cower in the corner as the room continues to be trashed.

Re:Obligatory Simpsons Scene

[displaced80]

Nope -- we have ticks :)

Tickboxes, Tickmarks are just 'ticks'.

Amongst programmers, 'checkboxes' is understood. But if I were to tell a user to put a check in that checkbox, I'd get an odd look.

Although we do have checklists, which (oddly) are usually ticked-off. Even though the person doing the ticking would announce 'Check!'. Checkpoints are indeed 'check'points, unless you're referring to those cheque-cashing (no, not caching) shops which sometimes call themselves 'Chequepoints'.

Schoolkids will get ticks on their work, not checks.

And yes -- flashlights are torches. It's 99.9% certain that the person hearing the word will understand whether or not it's of the 'flaming' variety, based on context. That other 0.1% of the time can be quite funny/dangerous/deadly. But only to D&D players who take things too far.

Re:Obligatory Simpsons Scene

[Dogtanian]

Like we're really going to have a position in the US as stupid sounding as a "Chancellor".

Well, you have a president; that's pretty stupid-sounding.

Hang on, I don't think that's what I meant. Let's get rid of the colon....

Well, you have a president that's pretty stupid-sounding.

That's more like it.

Re:Not blackmail

[arkanes]

Not at all true. In some places, and in some times, the Mafia (or other organized crime) have essentially been the government. The difference is mainly one of perception and comfort. There's an implict threat of violence in every governmental action - go ask an anarchist about this sort of thing, they'll blab your ear off. The threat of violence, implicit or explicit, is often used in political negotiations.

They aren't the same, obviously. But it's a matter of degree and custom, not that they're totally different. Coercion is coercion is coercion.

Re:Not blackmail

[Hope Thelps]

Whatever it is, it's ludicrously transparent. According to the FFII's translation of the original Danish story, included in their statement [ffii.org]on this, Bill said:

"If I'm to keep my development center in Denmark, then it's a
requirement that the question of rights becomes resolved. Otherwise, I
will move it to the USA where I can protect my rights"

In fact, the location that development takes place has nothing to do with patent validity. Software developed in Denmark can be patented in the USA regardless of Danish or EU laws. Software developed in the USA cannot be patented in countries that don't recognise software patents, ragardless of US laws.

There's no way that Billis misinformed enough to think otherwise. If he showed occasional signs of honesty or integrity then he might get more respect.

Re:Not blackmail

[the_womble]

In fact, the location that development takes place has nothing to do with patent validity. Software developed in Denmark can be patented in the USA regardless of Danish or EU laws

Confusing governments over that is a major part of the pro strong patent and copyright crowds argument. Without it the whole "without the aptent laws people ahve no incentive" argument falls apart.

except that..

[bmajik]

Navision historically has sold its wares in europe. So patent/copyright laws in europe are very much relevant in europe.

Also, the denmark office was an aquisition which afaik is a separate company, Microsoft Business Solutions, that may be incorporated separately in Denmark for historical reasons.

let's be clear - I definitely think gates is saying something along the lines of "if you're not going to make an effort to protect software, i wont make an effort to continue investing in your economy". That seems like a reasonable thing to say, doesn't it ?

Re:Not blackmail

[Taladar]

Especially since Dutch is the language spoken in the Netherlands, not the one spoken in Denmark (that one is danish).

Dead Patent-Law Sketch (Part 1)

[sepluv]

Here's something I wrote the other day, which seems particularly appropriate now this story has come out:

The Cast:

• Mr. Gates
• A European Commissioner

The Sketch

A `customer' (with brown envelopes and chequebook aready) enters the €C in Brussels.

Mr. Gates: 'Ello, I wish to register a complaint.

(The commisioner does not respond.)

Mr. Gates: 'Ello, Miss?

Commissioner: What do you mean "miss"?

Mr. Gates: I'm sorry, I have a cold. I wish to make a complaint!

Commissioner: We're closin' for lunch.

Mr. Gates: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this patent law what I purchased not two years ago from this very office.

Commissioner: Oh yes, the, uh, the computer-implemented inventions one...What's, uh...What's wrong with it?

Mr. Gates: I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lad. 'E's dead, that's what's wrong with it!

Commissioner: No, no, 'e's uh,...he's resting.

Mr. Gates: Look, matey, I know a dead patent law when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.

Commissioner: No no he's not dead, he's, he's restin'! Remarkable law, idn'it, ay? Beautiful sophistory and ambiguity!

Mr. Gates: The anbiguity don't enter into it. It's stone dead.

Commissioner: Nononono, no, no! 'E's resting!

Mr. Gates: All right then, if he's restin', I'll wake him up!

...

Mr. Gates: You let the European Parliament kill 'im, didn't you!

Commissioner: I never!!

Mr. Gates: Yes, you did!

Commissioner: I never, never did anything...

(Mr. Gates takes patent law out of briefcase and thumps it on the desk. Throws it up in the air and watches it plummet to the floor.)

contd...(due to limit on post size)

Dead Patent-Law Sketch (Part 2)

[sepluv]

The Sketch (contd...)

Mr. Gates: Now that's what I call a dead patent law. The JURI is no longer out on that patent law...its most definitely deceased.

Commissioner: No, no.....No, 'e's stunned!

Mr. Gates: STUNNED?!?

Commissioner: Yeah! 'E was stunned by all the public backlash! Patent laws stun easily, major.

Mr. Gates: Um...now look...now look, mate, I've definitely 'ad enough of this. That patent law is definitely deceased, and when I purchased it not two years ago, you assured me that its total lack of movement was due to it bein' tired and shagged out following prolonged internal diplomacy.

Commissioner: Well...uhhh...we prefer to do things dead slow and sure like in the EU!

Mr. Gates: Well...the dead bit is most certainly right. Look, why did it fall flat on his back the moment I got home last time? I never had these problems with Congress...

Commissioner:Remarkable patent law, id'nit, squire? Lovely contradictions and those beautiful convoluted sentences!

Mr. Gates: Look, I took the liberty of examining that patent law when I got it home, and I discovered the only reason that it had got as far as it had in the first place was that no one had actually READ it.

(pause)

Commissioner: Well, o'course they don't! They're not payed enough for that...at least they are, but we pay 'em NOT to read 'em. That's the trick, you see. Trust me...that patent law will fly straight through as an A-item in the fisheries committee...just like...a parrot, sir...you know parrots love a bit of fish...the great thing is, sir, that the ministers and MEPs avoid it like the plague on account of it stinkin' to 'igh 'eaven...

Mr. Gates: Never find how 'igh your damn committee stinks, this patent law wouldn't fly through your committee if you put four million volts through every minister present! 'E's bleedin' demised!

Commissioner: No no! 'E's just a li'l slow!

Mr. Gates: 'E's not slow! 'E's passed on! This patent law is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! 'E's pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked thebucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-PATENT LAW!!

(pause)

Commissioner: Well, I'd better replace it, then. (he takes a quick peek round the back) Sorry squire, I've had a look 'round the back , and uh, we're right out of patent laws.

Mr. Gates: I see. I see, I get the picture.

Commissioner: I got a HIPC initiative. Uhhh...your good...ummm...friend, Mr. Brown had this idea you see but he hasn't got the means...

(pause)

Mr. Gates: (sweetly) Pray, will it take out my competitors?

Commissioner: Nnnnot really.

Mr. Gates: WELL IT'S HARDLY A BLOODY REPLACEMENT, IS IT?!!???!!?

Commissioner: N-no, I guess not. (gets ashamed, looks at his feet)

Mr. Gates: Well.

(pause)

Commissioner: (quietly) You know I thought that uhhh...spread in Teen Beat was rather good...uhhh...D'you.... d'you want to come back to my place?

Mr. Gates: (looks around) Yeah, all right, sure.

Copyright

The original dead parrot [wikipedia.org] sketch [mtholyoke.edu] was written by Graham Chapman, et. al. for Monty Python [wikipedia.org]'s Flying Circus [wikipedia.org] and is © 1989 Pantheon Books/Random House, Inc. My modification of it is co

Correct word...

[abb3w]

is obviously Danegeld [newcastle.edu.au]. =)

Re:Two minutes hate time already?

[thenextpresident]

The only way this could be construed as immoral or objectionable activity is if you accept the premiss that Microsoft's monopoly dominance is absolute and that there are no acceptable alternatives

Actually, this has nothing to do with monopolies. It's immoral because Gates is threatening to lay people off. 800 people out of work is not something a politician wants, nor does it help an economy. What Gates was doing was using the 800 employees welfare as leverage which is immoral.

Re:Two minutes hate time already?

[miskatonic alumnus]

Your logic is astounding --- I guess we have no grounds to ojbect or complain about anything unless it violates a natural human right. Now genius, why not define natural human right for us.

Here is one for you. The corporation doesn't have a natural right to make a profit, nor use the roads that taxpayers pay for, nor the airwaves for communications that are owned by the people, etc. etc. etc. You corporate apologists make me want to puke.

Re:Two minutes hate time already?

[nacturation]

The corporation doesn't have a natural right to make a profit, nor use the roads that taxpayers pay for...

Hm... I don't recall ever seeing a corporation driving down the road. But hey, at least the person driving that truck gets paid by a corporation, is able to make a profit from the work, and pays the taxes on that profit which is used in part to fund the road on which he drives.

But interesting argument you've got there. I suppose you (and the mods, apparently) consider it insightful to state that a

Re:Two minutes hate time already?

[anonicon]

Thank you for providing such a clear, coherent, well thought out argument for the legalization of racketeering, extortion and blackmail. You must be most proud of yourself.

Chuck

Re:Two minutes hate time already?

[Hope Thelps]

The only way this could be construed as immoral or objectionable activity...

Rubbish. I'll decide what I do and don't find objectionable, thank you. I find threatening people's livelihoods in order to bully their governments into enacting the legislation you want to be very highly objectionable.

Describing natural consequences of legislation is acceptable. That isn't what they are doing here. The place in which software is developed has no impact on whether it is patentable in any given market. This is a threat, pure and simple, it's a threat against innocent employees as a way of pressuring others, and it should be resisted.

Re:Two minutes hate time already?

[kamasutra]

You mean the ones Gates created and sustains of his own free will?

Navision was a successful company bought by Microsoft (last year if my memory serves me right, but could be wrong about that). Gates (and Microsoft) hasn't created it and even less sustained it. Their own work did that.

You mean the ones Gates himself employs?

Yes. As so many have already explained, this is a disgusting threat because where software is produced doesn't have any correlation to legal protection it has in market in which it sells.

Re:Two minutes hate time already?

[museumpeace]

Given the trend of governments, especially those in the EU, toward use of FOSS to run their bureaucracies, I would expect that a ploy by Microsoft like the one reported could blow up in their face. What would stop Rassmussen from saying to Gates "OK, you fire the 800 programmers. While they are looking for work, we will fund their unemployment insurance with the money we save by dumping Microsoft OS and Office products. In fact, maybe some of those displaced workers would not mind helping us install and configure Linux, Firefox and Open Office in all our departments." The Danes are not noted for caving in to aggressive ulitmatims [bethgutcheon.com].

Re:Two minutes hate time already?

[born_to_live_forever]

All right, this is where I step in...

Just to get the preliminaries out of the way: I am a Dane and an historian. That means that, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, you should assume that I know what I'm talking about here.

Now, the parent of this thread presents several hypothetical ideas regarding this (although they look more like assertions, given the tone of the post):

1) One would expect Microsoft's ploy to "blow up in their faces".

2) The Danish PM Anders Fogh Rasmussen could respond by adopting non-MS software in government departments, as a retaliatory measure.

3) Anders Fogh Rasmussen might conceivably do so.

4) "Danes are not noted for caving in to agressive ultimatums".

Those are the points I'm going to address.

Short version:

No. Never in a million years. Forget it. End of story.

Long version:

The flights of fancy presented above represent a glorious mix of misinformed wishful thinking. While I suppose I ought to be quite flattered by the picture they paint of Danes, the fact is that they are, historically and contemporarily/politically, simply untrue.

Let me respond to each of these points individually:

1) One would expect Microsoft's ploy to "blow up in their faces".

Why? When has Microsoft (or any other major corporation) ever suffered a serious and permanent backlash from using strong-arm tactics? Small setbacks, yes - but what reason would Bill Gates have for believing that such an outcome is in any way likely?

2) The Danish PM Anders Fogh Rasmussen could respond by adopting non-MS software in government departments, as a retaliatory measure.

No. The Danish PM doesn't have that sort of comprehensive influence over government purchasing policies. Certainly, he could push for legislation in such matters, and instruct his cabinet to push for adoption of non-MS solutions within their ministries, but even if he were likely to do so (which he isn't, see point 3) the time frame for a switch-over would be long. The wheels of bureaucracy grind slowly.

3) Anders Fogh Rasmussen might conceivably do so.

No, he wouldn't. In fact, I don't hesitate to use the word "inconceivable" in that context. Rasmussen is a liberal-right ("liberal" in the Danish context meaning "laissez-faire capitalist") politician, and his entire political career is built on the conviction that free market forces and less government are the panaceas whereby all economic and social evils will be eradicated. In fact, I think he actually believes that. For ideological reasons alone, it is highly improbable that he would do so.

Leaving aside the ideology, Fogh Rasmussen would be a pretty irresponsible public official if he chose the path of outright confrontation. Such a move could (and would) be interpreted by the U.S. as a form of protectionism, and become the opening move in a trade war. No responsible PM would involve his country in such a situation. He'd be more likely to knuckle under.

4) "Danes are not noted for caving in to agressive ultimatums".

It pains me to say this, but this is relatively untrue. Although Denmark has sometimes resisted ultimatums (such as the British demand that Denmark surrender her navy in 1801), the fact is that any confrontation has eventually led to the Danes capitulating and giving the foe what he wanted. We didn't invent the term "appeasement", but by damn, we live it.

The parent post cites the Danish evacuation of the Jews in 1943 as an example of Danish refusal to cave in - but the evacuation was largely carried out by private individuals. The government was not involved in any significant degree. In fact, when Denmark was invaded in 1940, the government rapidly chose to capitulate and enter into a policy of cooperation with the Nazis. Honestly, the only reason Denmark was not treated as a collaborator nation after t

CORRECTION (Oh dear)

[born_to_live_forever]

It took me about ten seconds after posting for a little niggling voice at the back of my mind to tell me that I'd better check my facts. The following paragraph in my preceding post is completely wrong:

The "true hero", as such, of the evacuation was not, in fact, a Dane - it was SS-Obergruppenführer Dr. Werner Best, the German administrator in charge of "cooperation" with the Danish government. When he learned of the plan to seize the Danish Jews (who had previously been left alone, to avoid antagonizing the Danes), he surreptitiously gave warning to his Danish contacts, who passed the word along. The entire evacuation operation was carried out largely without any government participation. I know it seems strange, even fantastic, to consider an SS man the "hero" of any situation - but nevertheless, such is the case.

Turns out, my memory had played a trick on me and I'd swapped a couple of names. True to the classic image of SS men, Werner Best was not a good guy. In fact, he was the individual who recommended implementing the "resolution of the Jewish problem in Denmark". Although his overall behaviour with regard to occupied Denmark was lenient, he certainly was not a good guy.

The actual hero of the day was Georg Duckwitz, of the German Embassy in Copenhagen. He was responsible for matters dealing with shipping, and he gave warning of the impending operation to Danish contacts.

*sigh*

Oh well, I suppose that mess-up sort of undermines my credibility - though I do think that I should get credit for issuing an immediate correction.

In any case, this little historical quibble has no bearing on the actual matter of Fogh Rasmussen's likely response to MS strong-arm tactics. But then again, you probably don't need me to tell you that politicians tend to cave in to pressure from big business...

Re:Two minutes hate time already?

[miu]

It isn't illegal, but it is arrogant, not really haggling - more like classic carrot and stick. At the very least this kind of strong arm move could backfire and encourage the other party to determine how fast they could re-employ those 800 people in the native software industry, maybe even one based on OSS. That would not only resulting in lost business for MS, but give the Danish government additional incentive to resist software patents.

Re:Not blackmail

[jedidiah]

It's not and any of those tactics are equally reprehensible.

What made you think that any of us would consider any such other shenanigans acceptable either?

Here's another article...

[MadMoses]

...from heise.de [heise.de] (in German).

I don't know

[Alien54]

maybe they could try to arrest him on blackmail charges, or something

How mafioso

Re:I don't know

[MadMoses]

Not really. He didn't say something like "If you vote against software patents, we will terminate those jobs." He said something along the lines of we're extremely unhappy that there are no software patents in Europe. We can't "secure our rights" properly here, so we just might have to relocate that company to the USA.

Political FUD.

Re:I don't know

[swv3752]

Meaning, he was extorting but not in way that could lead to a potential criminal charge.

Re:I don't know

[ergo98]

How mafioso

Software patents are largely bullshit, however there is nothing nefarious about a business negotiating with government for an optimal business environment. If Bill Gates really thinks that software patents are necessary for a business unit to be viable in a political region, then he has every legitimate right to express that. The government has the right to tell him to go screw himself, and if he really thinks it's do or die then he can pull out.

This sort of tactic is absolutely classic in many other business areas. Automakers these days only build plants where the government will concede to their demands, as well as often offering up hundreds of millions in incentives.

Hmmmm

[Traegorn]

Don't think of it as "Blackmail" so much as "Microsoft Job Incentives"

Herr Rasmussen...

[Anonymous Coward]

You veel accept ein pahtent deerektive, or your employeess.. vill be terminated!

You've got a lot of jobs there, Prime Minister

[JPelorat]

It'd be a shame if someone was to.. set fire to them.

Re:You've got a lot of jobs there, Prime Minister

[robvs68]

Prime Minister: Set fire to them?
Balmer: Fires happen, Prime Minister.
Gates: Things burn.
Prime Minister: Look, what is all this about?
Gates: My partner and I have got a little proposition for you, Prime Minister.
...

Re:You've got a lot of jobs there, Prime Minister

[MadMoses]

Set fire on them? I say, shoot back with: "We're really unhappy with Microsoft's plans to relocate Navision to the USA. We're also really unhappy about the cost and security holes of Windows. That's why we're thinking about switching all government offices to Linux."

Blackmail?

[toastyman]

COWBOYNEAL: BLACKMAIL! [reference.com]
Inigo Montoya [imdb.com]: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

SOP

[fermion]

this has become standard, at least in the US. Corporations play one state against the other to gain tax breaks, increase dole payments, and other entitlements. These welfare subsidies can net a several hundred dollars of government payments per anticipated position.

Also covered by Groklaw

[John_Sauter]

Note that this story is also being covered by Groklaw [groklaw.net], with some good commentary by Pamela Jones.
John Sauter ([e-mail])

Re:Also covered by Groklaw

[LinuxTek]

Thanks to Richard Stallman and his GNU Project, Linus Torvalds

I knew that RMS always wanted to name Linux as GNU Linux, but now he claims to have created Linus Torvalds?

Re:Also covered by Groklaw

[Zocalo]

Have they quoted directly from the Danish source?

They have a rough translation from a Danish speaker so they should be pretty accurate. That's one of the things I really like about Groklaw, they *always* cite where translations have come from, and because of their global network of volunteers eventually get a proper translation from a native speaker. Their handling this kind of language translation issue is something that Groklaw excels at, and I wish more news sources would do the same.

Blackmail or Extortion

[kenthorvath]

Is there a difference between blackmail and extortion?

According to dictionary.com, blackmail is defined as the extortion of money or something else of value from a person by the threat of exposing a criminal act or discreditable information.

Whereas extortion is defined as the Illegal use of one's official position or powers to obtain property, funds, or patronage.

Is it not extortion that has occured here?

Re:Blackmail or Extortion

[will_die]

It is neither.
It is definatly not blackmail, since there is no criminal act or discreditable information.
It is not extortion because the act of close the office and firing the people would not be illegal. Also it was not made in private.
It is definatly arm twisting or making a threating comment. Not sure how illegal that would be.

The Danish article is very pro-patents :-(

[EsbenMoseHansen]

Mainly it talks about how parts of the IT sector wants to block the contensted directive and how the proponents have been unable to get through due to effective lobbyism from the contensters.

We the people ...

[ghoti]

We are going to get ruled more and more by corporations, rather than governments. Since Microsoft is making more than most American states, they also wield quite a bit of power. And since politicians can always be blackmailed with the prospect of lost jobs (Siemens did that in Germany, and lots of other comapnies too), I wonder how long until our right to vote is transferred to our employers ...

Re:We the people ...

[ghoti]

True, but the question is: how much choice do we really have? There's basically a merger every day, corporations are buying up their competition, and there are quasi-monopolies in many areas. Microsoft is the prime example for this! A lot of things will need to happen for people to switch to alternative products - just look at what has already happened: spyware, viruses, crappy quality, etc. Have people switched? No. Not in significant numbers, anyway.

In theory, we have the power - whether as consumers or as voters. But in reality, I think we don't really have much choice.

I know I sound paranoid, but sometimes I just can't help it ...

Re:We the people ...

[garcia]

In theory, we have the power - whether as consumers or as voters. But in reality, I think we don't really have much choice.

People don't care about choice... If they did we wouldn't stand for monopolies in telephone, radio, TV, computers, etc.

People just want "life to be easy". If that means having one company make their descisions for them while they let the cable TV wash over them after work, so be it.

Re:

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

That does not make sense

[Arioch of Chaos]

These threats are common. However, is there really any relevant connection between where R&D/software development takes place and where one can apply for patents? Of course not. Nothing is preventing Microsoft from applying for US patents for the things they "invent" in Denmark. The question of where they can get a patent is not intrinsically linked to where they do their development.

Danish Government has Tough Decision

[bigtallmofo]

Hmm... Let's weigh the options for the Danish government:

1. Loss of approximately 800 jobs
2. Implement stifling patent policies that will likely make Microsoft and other massive patent holders even more wealthy while crippling innovation within their country.

I wonder which one they should pick?

Not so tough as you think

[Oestergaard]

You see, sw patents are only a problem when you are starting up new business - if you are IBM (or Microsoft to some extent) already, then they are useful.

My point here being, that software patents are only 'stifling' if you intend to start up new business.

And you are only likely to realize this, if you realize that starting up new businesses is important for an economy to grow.

Back in the late '90s our government found out that Denmark should be a country of innovation, a high-tech economy so to speak - we cannot compete with china on industrial production costs anyway. So, in order to "boost" research they shut down the only government super computing center we had, sending researchers elsewhere to go beg for computing power.

To further strenghten our position as a nation of researchers and scientists, we have one of the most expensive but crappiest primary school systems in the western world - which is one thing, but the fact that anyone refuses to do anything about it underlines how important it is to the government to really position our country with a high-tech economy. Or not...

Copyright law was changed last year, to make it illegal to use or develop debuggers and disassemblers. I wrote to the minister in change of that decision letting him know that I and anyone else developing software would be breaking that law. Got some bullshit answer back which didn't address the problem, so now I'm practicing my right to "civil disobedience" every day on the job, along with everyone else in the software business in this country...

800 jobs is money right here right now. "Stifling" is in the eye of the beholder. For a government which is determined to break any initiative or start-up business, either indirectly thru neglect or directly thru law, it seems like it is not such a tough decision to make.

Oh, and add a photo opportunity with Bill and it's a done deal.

Re:Danish Government has Tough Decision

[KrunZ]

The little town (Vedbæk) is one of the richest (http://hjem.get2net.dk/rungsted.roklub/huse_langs _stranden2.htm) towns in Denmark. It was one of the richest before Microsoft entered (http://www.microsoft.com/danmark/jobs/vedbak.asp) , it was one of the richest before the company (http://www.sinca.com/noticia_aquiere_navision.htm l) that Microsoft bought started, and it will remain one of the richest after Microsofts leaves.

Re:Danish Government has Tough Decision

[mr3038]

Loss of 800 jobs is immediate, obvious and can lose them votes.

Just make sure that public understands that the choice to lose those jobs is done by Microsoft. I assume that the company was doing pretty fine until Microsoft bought it and if Microsoft is now threatening to fire those people, it's their choice.

We have had a couple of similar situations in Finland where large companies asked for lower taxes or "they would be forced to fire people". Okay, they got the lower taxes and now they are firing people to increase profits. As a result, I don't trust local for-profit entities a little bit.

Gates is full of it

[pesc]

I've heard this kind of logic from the patent lobby numerous times:

"If we don't get software patents in Europe, we can't develop stuff there. We have to develop in in the US where we have software patents available."

This is pure FUD and BS. Why can't we develop stuff in Europe and apply for patents in the US? Most of the technology in patent applications in Europe was developed in foreign countries.

The smart thing to do is to develop tech where you have smart people. And apply for software patents in the US and have a free market without software monopolies in Europe. If you develop a product that happen to infringe on a forest of software patents, you can only market it profitably in Europe. Too bad for the US.

I hope politicians learn to call this kind of extortionist bluff soon.

Scary

[Alarash]

When companies/corporations begin trying to extort countries, and not the weakest countries mind you, something is wrong.

I'm beginning to believe that what I read in sci-fi will come true (ie: in the future, mankind is ruled by corporations that want to make money).

And even more scary is the fact that for one extortion of that kind we hear of, numbers of other extortions of the same kind happen and we never hear about it. Brrr.

Re:Scary

[hattig]

When the corporation becomes government.

And when the corporation exists to benefit from the people it 'governs'.

And when the corporation 'feeds' the people by giving them money, whilst restricting the rights of the people via law.

Then you have slavery.

Now for a rant with lots of flaws...

The solution is to equalise the lobbying power of corporations with that of the common person. Disallow corporate funding/gifts of government employees. The government should be run FOR the people, because the people el

For those who didn't read the article:

[MadMoses]

Gates said that he's displeased with the process of political decisions on software patents in the european union. In particular, he seems to be unhappy about the successful opposition by many european IT companies and software developers.

He further claims that Microsoft can secure their rights better in the USA.

I call BS on that: if Microsoft relocates Navision to the USA, they can patent there all they want, but guess what, their patents won't mean squat in Europe without the possibility to patent software in the EU.

Here's a thought

[NeoGeo64]

Couldn't Microsoft just buy Denmark?

Do the math ...

[zonix]

Couldn't Microsoft just buy Denmark?

Hmm, let's see ... Denmark's biggest bridge, that's about 6 billion USD right there? You do the math.

z

Danish better start a OSS project soon

[e_AltF4]

Converting all Danish government IT away from MS towards OSS will surely bring far more than 800 jobs and KEEP those in the country.

Go read some Gibson "Cyberpunk" books to see what you get if you let corporations run the world.

Just my 5€Cents.

Re:Danish better start a OSS project soon

[e_AltF4]

> If the purpose of the government is to create more state jobs
> at a greater expense to taxpayers, then you're right on the money.

"Greater expense" still has to be shown - we aren't talking about
Jane Doe's home PC here. Governments should think in longer time
frames and also should give some weight to vendor independance,
freedom of upgrade cycles, local IT jobs (including education, R&D
and stuff) and - as a bonus - getting rid of blackmail :-)

> However I don't really think that's what governm

Cut off your nose....

[91degrees]

Surely they purchased the company for a reason. The staff would have been part fo that reasons.

Laying off that many staff in a fit of pique would create a perfect opportunity for a competitor to set up a company that does pretty much the same thing with the same employees.

for those who still believe in democracy...

[Fuzzums]

please wake up. it's "we, the corporations of the USA"

Former Navision employee

[SteelLynx]

No, not me. I've never worked for Navision and can't recall anyone I know (personally) who's done so.

However, a while back (before her marriage to our crown prince) our crown princess did work for Navision.

I can't help but wonder if Bill Gates would have dared threaten to close the workplace of an upcoming queen...

common definiton: Racketeering

[192939495969798999]

Generally, something "arm twisting" like this is commonly considered "racketeering", meaning "if you don't do what we/I want, 'something bad' is going to happen".

Heaven forbid!

[ScentCone]

Change the players to something more politically correct, like a Hybrid Car factory, and watch exactly the same thing play out. Big companies always look to put their people, their money, and their wake-generating activity in a place (or tax framework) that best suits their bottom line. Why do you suppose that Japanese car manufacturers have partnership plants in Kentucky? Because Michigan was out of room? No, because they dangled issues like jobs in front of political decision makers, and the best deal won. Did the editors of this posting just fall off a turnip truck or something? That headline is gratuitous. Come on, now.

Darth Gates

[HangingChad]

You and your pathetic band of Eurotrash nations will accept software patents or you will feel the power of our fully operational Deathstar! Powered by XP.

Just as soon as it reboots...any second now...is the Deathstar back up yet? Damned 14 year old hackers!

Suprise!

[tod_miller]

If you care to check out my other posts on the subject of EU patents, I do wonder just where Microsoft would be behind the curtains.

In the everlasting words of Bill Gates "Suprise Fuckers!".

Well, I think this is obviously a way of setting up a legal platform to kill linux (after SCO failed) by removing the last bastion of patent turf war.

We need to have out own patent office, the GNUPatent office, and get it recognised.

An argument that Gates actually committed a crime.

[Baldrson]

From MSN Encarta [msn.com]:

Sherman Antitrust Act, basic federal enactment regulating the operations of corporate trusts, passed by the U.S. Congress in July 1890, through the efforts of Senator John Sherman of Ohio. The act declared illegal "every contract, combination in the form of trust or otherwise, or conspiracy, in restraint of trade or commerce among the several States, or with foreign nations." Criminal penalties were provided for violators of the law, and aggrieved persons were entitled to recover three times the amount of losses suffered as a result of the violation. The Sherman Act has been amended and supplemented by several subsequent enactments. Most notable among these enactments was the Clayton Antitrust Act of 1914. See Monopoly; Trusts.

OK, so given that the main article's title changes "blackmail" to "extort", /. is probably not committing libel.

I'd change it. Even though Gates is a "public figure" it really is poor practice to throw around accusations carelessly.

Patents only for start up companies?

[Axoiv]

Why not restrict software patents to smaller start up companies? For a 7 year patent time or so?

These large corporations dont seem to help humanity in any way. Cutting of jobs, threatening governments? It's getting out of control.

Smaller businesses, on the other hand, could produce more jobs and don't jam up the justice system suing anyone against them.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

alright i RTFA

[AviLazar]

This is not blackmail. The poster of this threat should be shot. At best this is extortion - more likely it is using political influence - just like MANY lobbyists do. You know when the NHL goes on strike for contract disputs, SEPTA goes on strike for contract disputes. When environmental groups lobby and put the squeeze on politicians. When car and oil companies do the same thing.

Frankly - it is also business. Billy probably was thinkign "if these guys want to screw me over with their .... then I am going to just pull my office from there so I don't get screwed..."

Wake up! Corporations are co-opting democracy

[ahodgkinson]

This is what happens when multi-national corporations gain wealth approaching that of medium sized nations. They tend to start (mis-)using the power that wealth affords them to promote their own agenda. While this is done for financial gain and not as evil for evil's sake, the result is a disproportionate balance of power/rights to the favor of the corporation at the expense of the private citizen, with little regard for unintended consequences that the public might suffer.

Unfortunately, multi-national corporations have a great deal to gain with such practices, and their expected value is actually fairly high, even taking into account the legal fees, fines and embarrassment of getting caught now and again.

Unfortunately, the public, as compared to the vested business interests, is generally apathetic, since they have less to lose individually, than the corporations. This means that the corporations will merely continue their efforts until the public loses interest and they succeed in converting their selfish desires into government policy. This may take years, but they have the focus to see it through to the end.

In the particular case, software patents, there has been public outcry in Europe against them and the politicians have generally listened. Each time we think the issue is close some massive business entity resurrects the discussion, in spite of the public opinion. Obviously this hasn't yet met with success and now Microsoft is attempting some innovative (sic) and repulsive tactics.

What should we as individuals do?

• Spread the word and name names. Tell your friends, your co-workers, you boss, or even better, your neighbor the elected official, that Microsoft has attempted to co-opt the democratic process in Denmark.
• Wite letters to newspapers, journals, and elected officials explaining why software patents are a bad idea in Europe.
• Vote with your feet. Stop buying/using products from companies that engage in unfair business and political practices.
• Donate to the EFT, Groklaw and other similar institutions.
• Remain vigilant.

If you dont know much about the arguments surrounding software patents, have a look at: http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com [nosoftwarepatents.com]

Note: I'm not against big business, provided they play fair. Unfortunately, my experience has been that large corporations tend to use their size advantages in ways that make it difficult for smaller (and in many cases more innovative) business to compete. It's up to the small guy to fight back (in a fair way :).

Backfired!

[infolib]

The danish Social Democrats just denounced Gates' threats in a press release [ffii.org]. The social democrats control whether software patents have a majority or not in the danish parliament.

Probably out of context

[bushidocoder]

I've been thinking about this all morning, and laying 800 people off as a blackmail to pass a certain political desirable just doesn't make sense. It actually doesn't ring of BillG's style, and its bad business - what were those 800 people doing? Its not like Microsoft doesn't have release schedule problems with its products already.

If I had to make a guess, I'd say one of two things actually happened - First BillG may have threatened to MOVE the company, which isn't quite the same as firing them all but it just about as bad morally. Unfortunately, companies do this all the time, especially manufacturing companies - hell, its half the reason auto makers have unions.

The second option is that he was planning on axing the workforce for valid business reasons and offered to throw them a bone and keep it open if the PM supported software patents.

Neither is too many shades better than the extortion reported in the article, but both are common tactics in the business world. Personally, I think we should say screw them all to all the companies that try to pull off BS stunts like this. Starting with Microsoft.

Billy Gates Stomping feet

[kurt555gs]

If you don't play my way, i'll take my marbles and go home

Greed!

The man is sick.

Denmark, Holland, USA, Navision, BillyG and Linux

[theolein]

I used to admin a Navision db at the last place I worked at, here in Switzerland. I even did a training course at the Navison central in Lucerne. I aksed the boss of Navision Switzerland if they had ever had plans to port Navision to Linux, since Navision has been around a long time, from the DOS days, and also used to run on AIX and up until recently didn't even use the Windows GUI toolkit but had its own proprietry one. He said that Microsoft had told the various European regional CEO's of Navision that they were not even allowed to mention Linux, never mind think about porting it to Linux.

Navsision is quite popular in Europe as it's very easy to install and admin, has a huge set of CRM and ERP modules and is small enough to be useful for companies of up to around 250 people or so. Navision was quite clever in their set up in that they have a network of so called Navision Solution Centers in Europe where customisation specialists sit around and write add on modules and customise existing db scripts for local businesses. Imagine if MySQL or PostgreSQL had a similar setup!

This was Microsoft's way of gaining a foothold in Europe with the hope of competing eventually with SAP (Navision also has a larger db product called Axapta).

Navision being Danish helped because Denmark (and Holland) have very much become the USA's bitches in Europe in the last few decades, probably because they thought they could use the USA to balance out the weight of their larger European neighbours.

On the whole this has also worked out as Holland and Denmark are doing pretty well economically (They're also much smaller than their neighbours and thus much more flexible). The problem is that they have thus also become the USA's bitches to a certain extent in that their militaries and sections of their economies are more dependent on American good will than others. The JSF fighter fiasco where loads of countries get to pay for development of the fighter in return for industrial contracts which never materialised is a good example.

This open extortion (blackmail isn't really the word) of a Danish national politician is what they get for their trouble. Microsoft would not do the same in Germany, for example, as the resulting scandal would kill Microsoft in Germany. (Let's leave Germany's economic mess out of this for now)

This should be awake up call to Europeans that sucking up to large corporations, especially large foreign corporations, is like handing away your birthright in the long run.

(Actually, I suppose this applies to all countries, really)

Update: Microsoft releases denial statement

[AFCArchvile]

As covered [theregister.co.uk] in two sources [zdnet.co.uk], Microsoft's denial:

But Klaus Holse Andersen, the European vice-president of Microsoft Business Solutions, denied on Tuesday that the jobs at Navision were ever at risk. "No, that is not what he said in the meeting," Andersen told ZDNet UK. "There is no plan for us to close down the site."

Fogh denies...

[Maskedman]

Our prime minister has officially denied that Bill Gates supposedly "threatened" him.

How can we "invest" in Poland and Denmark?

[lkcl]

How can we repay the Polish and Danish governments - in _real_ terms - involving patent-free software?

ideas, anyone?

Not quite as big a threat in Denmark

[hung_himself]

It's not the US...

Losing your job doesn't mean risking bankruptcy if you become sick and there are very generous social programs in Denmark to ease the transition from one job to another. I'm not saying being laid off is not a big deal but it is lower on the Richter scale. So because the Danes are less dependent on corporate largesse, they can also more easily ignore this type of corporate blackmail (albeit at the cost of higher taxes for some...)

Let's play a game

[Catbeller]

In response to the "so what?" posts, let's play a game:

Suppose I, catbeller, in my civilian life, told a representative of Microsoft that I would personally unemploy, say, his family members by making a couple of phone calls, barring his cooperation in paying me a few million dollars, and signing a few contracts granting me much power.

How long until the armored black farmboys smash my door down with a ram? How long would I be in FMITA prison?

But Microsoft can do it. And no one is responsible. The corporation has civil rights as an individual, but has no civil obligations. Even if a crime is somehow proven, no one goes to jail, not for theft of billions, Enron style, or death of thousands, Dupont/Bhopal style.

All power and priviledge, no responsibilty for its own actions. The very thing that makes conservatives quiver: no consequences for individuals for their own actions. Fake corporate "persons" front for real people committing real crimes. The current setup is organized crime.

I've come to the conclusion that corporate personhood is a concept that has to be eliminated. People should answer for their crimes. If Bill made the decision to extort the Danes, then he should have to answer for it at a trial after extradition from the U.S. But in the real world...

Backfire!

[redelm]

... and if I and others decide to detest M$ over a hostile action, that too is our right. The separation of business and politics is a much bigger deal in the EU than in the US. Rightfully so IMHO. M$ just lost cred bigtime, especially if this is widely reported.

As for Martha, had she tried those stunts, I'm sure that the DoJ would be happy to add bribery (maybe extortion) charges and her shareholders would've sued her to powder. There is supposed to be separation between the legislative, executive and judicial branches of govt in the US. And an independant judiciary (incl prosecutors) most everywhere else.

Re:Danish government

[White Roses]

Oh, like either of those is better: Hitler or Abba.

Re:Worst....article....ever

[Peter H.S.]

Now, I'm not saying they DIDN'T do it, it sounds like something a business would do. But this piece of "journalism" is not enough to condemn Microsoft for anything. That is by far the poorest execuse for a news article I've ever seen and nothing in it should be taken as fact.

Fair enough, but I can assure this story is the real deal. Your danish is perhaps a little rusty, but here are some links anyway:

http://www.borsen.dk/dagens-nyheder/?ids[]=70135 [borsen.dk]
http://politiken.dk/ [politiken.dk]

It is worth noting, that the so

Re:

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion