Fallout From Japanese Patent On Help Icon 372
MeridianOnTheLake writes "The Tokyo District Court has ordered the destruction of Ichitaro, a software product that is the only serious competitor in Japan to Microsoft Word, and has been on sale since 1985. The ruling is based on the claim of a competitor, Matsushita, that the use of a help icon to invoke a help function infinges on one of their patents. "We are a global enterprise and we are just following international practice to enforce our IP rights," Kitadeya (Matsushita) said." Here's more on the story, as covered by Bloomberg and The Japan Times.
Obvious Question (Score:3, Informative)
A surprising thing is Justsystem shares fell 3 yen, or 0.5 percent, to 600 yesterday - As if nothing happened?
Re:Obvious Question (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Obvious Question (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Obvious Question (Score:2)
cross licensing (Score:5, Interesting)
Where have I seen that before? (Score:5, Funny)
Gee, do you think there might be any other software out there that uses a help icon? *cough* *coughwindowsmacoswordexcelaccesspowerpointwordpe
It's a shame (Score:5, Insightful)
Does anybody know?
Re:It's a shame (Score:5, Informative)
I'll translate about as much as I can without getting into copyright trouble. The patent includes clicking on one icon displayed somewhere on your console, which attaches a special graphic to your mouse cursor. You then click on another icon or function on your console, and it brings up context-sensitive help. This is specifically distinguished from using context-sensitive help by pressing one special key or icon which is in a constant place, and also from each function embedding an explanation of what it does through other means which do not change the state of the mouse cursor.
The meat of the story is paragraphy #3, although the three screenshots on the front page are understandable even if you don't read Japanese. Due to quirkiness with derivative works law in Japan, tranlating their captions exactly could potentially lead to a lot of trouble. Suffice it to say that the first screenshot shows the offending icon, the second shows the mouse cursor changing as a result of clicking the icon, and the third shows the result of a second click on a generic interface function (an explanation pops up).
Re:It's a shame (Score:4, Informative)
http://ark42.com/freeimage/ShiftF1help.gif [ark42.com]
Re:Innovation "No S/w Patents" (Score:3, Insightful)
However, since software is much more easily duplicated than manuscripts are, this would be no bar to it's wide distribution and application. And such people woul
Re:It's a shame (Score:3)
Anyone who has a (Japanese) patent on software "modes" should be able to trump this one. Command modes are nearly as old as software. The "infringing" company must not have been able to afford as many lawyers, because the patent registers an idea that is obvious. But then again, I don't know Japanese patent law.
Just to take stock: software patents give large corporations the power to grind individual developers into paste. Copyright law is beginning to give corporations the power to turn those same gun
Now if only someone had patented "Clippy" (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Now if only someone had patented "Clippy" (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Now if only someone had patented "Clippy" (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Now if only someone had patented "Clippy" (Score:4, Insightful)
It's pretty sad when software can't even handle it's own proprietary format properly.
Re:Now if only someone had patented "Clippy" (Score:5, Insightful)
Frankly I believe Open Office handles older versions of .doc formats better than the current MS Word does.
Note: I'm not just MS bashing, I use Word a lot myself, and this is a very frustrating bug to deal with. It gets old having to upgrade every time a new version comes out (gotta make sure I can read all the Word documents that come my way), and having to keep older versions around on a backup machine for when the current version opens an older version .doc and it's unreadable without a few hours of formatting.
Re:Now if only someone had patented "Clippy" (Score:5, Funny)
You know, I'm getting a bit tired of this (Score:3, Funny)
There should never be a need for you to see it ever again.
I haven't actually seen it in years.
In fact, the only place I ever hear about it anymore is here on Slashdot, where the merest mention of it seems to garner endless chuckles and mod points.
Can't we just let the damned, detestable, yet mercifully short-lived abomination fade into obscurity with his ill-conceived yet now mostly forgotten friends "MS Bob" and "MS SQL Server"?
Dead horse, meet stick.
Thanks for your kind consideration.
Re:You know, I'm getting a bit tired of this (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Now if only someone had patented "Clippy" (Score:3, Funny)
Microsoft didn't take clippy far enough. He should have been intergrated in the OS itself. Users would have to ask clippy for permission to run any applications.
blink-blink
"It appears your trying to run an open source program. I know your not a commie so I'll just go ahead and remove that for you."
It's not the thing, it's the method (Score:5, Interesting)
Instead, they hired on an ex-Matsushita employee and he went on to use the Matsushita patented method for the help system. So they sued, as is their right.
This is not a problem with the patent system. However what it does bring up is "How much knowledge can you take away from your previous employer, even if all that knowledge is just in your head?" As we gain ground in technology, such to the point that Johnny Bnemonic-style memory expansion is possible, how can patent holders and companies owning "trade secret" IP be protected from information pirates?
Re:It's not the thing, it's the method (Score:2, Insightful)
That is why this is a problem with the patent system.
Re:It's not the thing, it's the method (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:It's not the thing, it's the method (Score:5, Insightful)
p.s. Of course, the people are getting hurt indirectly, as they are thus deprived of a choice in the marketplace.
Re:It's not the thing, it's the method (Score:4, Insightful)
p.s. Of course, the people are getting hurt indirectly, as they are thus deprived of a choice in the marketplace.
Re:It's not the thing, it's the method (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:It's not the thing, it's the method (Score:2, Interesting)
It seems a little too convenient that the company being sued is Microsoft's only serious competitor.
Does anyone else smell the hand of Bill Gates, or is it just me?
Re:It's not the thing, it's the method (Score:4, Insightful)
Man, Bill Gates is to Slashdotters what Satan is to the evangelicals- this all powerful, ubiquitous incarnation of darkness, whom all evil acts in the world can be blamed on.
I mean, I'm not saying I disagree with that viewpoint or anything...
Re:It's not the thing, it's the method (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:It's not the thing, it's the method (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:It's not the thing, it's the method (Score:5, Interesting)
It also depends some on the reason why the patent infringement is coming up now. For example, since the company affected is a competitor to Microsoft, did Microsoft pay Matsushita to launch the lawsuit? IANAL, but there may be a case for appeal, if it turns out that the lawsuit was in bad faith, and/or is an attempt by Microsoft to gain further control of the Japanese office market by paying Matsushita to eliminate the only serious competitor.
In general, the courts tend to frown on being used subversively as the "enforcers" of a protection racket.
I'm not saying that this is what is happening. What I am saying is that there are enough suspicious circumstances to warrant a closer look at this, and that the Japanese courts might be persuadable that this isn't as innocent as it appears.
As for the "what you know" problem - since any work "could" be tainted by any prior experience, it would be impossible for any technical person to be re-hired within the lifetime of any patent they may have come into contact with. AT&T argued a similar line, against the BSDers, arguing that since they'd come into contact with AT&T proprietary knowledge, they were tainted and therefore so was any/all their subsequent work.
This is one reason I don't agree with the existing concept of IP. Nobody could ever have more than one job, and once they quit/leave/get sacked, they could NEVER be re-employed. IMHO, that is not protecting anybody and is clearly excessive.
Therefore, it should not be possible to "taint" work with IP, merely by being exposed to it. There has to be a far more material breach, and one which isn't protected against IP claims in some other way (such as being obvious, public domain, etc).
Re:It's not the thing, it's the method (Score:5, Interesting)
Not sure if anyone interested in the trivia, but here's a bit just in case... The old Ichitaro actually had a lot of elements copied from ancient WordStar, but the interface got pretty much tortured to death when they were trying to add a Windows-style menu system. I'm pretty sure some versions had both interfaces. They had originally been almost completely dominant in the software word processor market, but that was back when NEC had the lock on proprietary Japanese hardware. Their foundation was their Japanese input system, which was still better than Microsoft's for many years. That was called ATOK, and was also sold separately for use as an IME replacement. They tried to expand into integrated office suites about the same time Lotus was getting beaten out of that market. Later on they tried to become an ISP with a system called JustNet, but I think they eventually sold it to someone else. (But I did see a few of their boxes in a large computer store just this weekend, when I was visiting Akihabara.)
Patents must be published (Score:4, Insightful)
Software patents are just ridiculous.
Re:Patents must be published (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Patents must be published (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Patents must be published (Score:5, Funny)
it has nothing to do with who worked where (Score:3, Insightful)
Patents are not trade secrets. The fact that someone moved between companies doesn't make the patent claim any more valid.
Furthermore, the ossified Japanese economy needs to encourage mobility of workers, in particular, high-tech workers. The kind of exchange of knowledge and ideas that brings is essential to a high-tech economy. Even if your argument were valid that this has to do with employees moving
Re:It's not the thing, it's the method (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a problem with the patent system, for two reasons:
Re:It's not the thing, it's the method (Score:3, Insightful)
You missed the third reason, which trumps the other two:
3. A patent should not be granted unless doing so promotes the progress of science or the useful arts.
That concept is codified as supreme law in the USA, but is a good idea for all nations. It's easy to argue that patents on user interface ideas can almost never benefit progress.
After all, patents are meant as an enticement for inventors to disclose their inventions to the world, instead o
Re:It's not the thing, it's the method (Score:4, Insightful)
Allowing a method to do something be patentable is absolutely stupid. Can you imagine if the doctor who developed organ transplant surgery patented all his findings and demanded huge royalties each time a transplant was carried out?
unfuckingbelievable (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm seriously considering moving to the wilderness. If there's any of that left.
Re:unfuckingbelievable (Score:2)
And you probably won't find John the Baptist, either.
zerg (Score:3, Interesting)
as if more proof were needed (Score:5, Insightful)
Also from TFA: Does the Japanese patent system have no concept of "prior art"? The patent in question was granted in 1998, but the products in "violation" has been on the market since 1985 and 1987.
Re:as if more proof were needed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:as if more proof were needed (Score:2, Informative)
The patent was applied for before 1985, it was only awarded in 1998. I'm not sure with the U.S., but in Japan the patent process is notoriously slow, that "Patent Applied" is mentioned on all new items. It seems to work pretty well as a deterant, as no one wants their ass sued off once the patent IS awarded.
That said, Just System WAS insisting that the exact same keyboard function wh
Re:as if more proof were needed (Score:2)
Re:as if more proof were needed (Score:4, Informative)
could anyone provide one where a software patent was indeed a good thing for an inovative feature?
I think the case of spreadsheets [wikipedia.org], which set precedence for software patents, is a good example of what you're asking. I imagine that software ought to have some of the same qualities of inventing physical things. If an inventor has spent an inordinate amount of time creating something innovative then he or she should be able to reap rewards from it and not have someone come along and rip off their plans and sell it themselves. Inventors should have the option of making a living solely from inventing, otherwise there would be a significant lack of development of technology.
However, many of the software patents that are being introduced that produce such a backlash are such trivial and unimaginative ideas. They actually don't improve technology, but rather hinder its progress, which is the exact opposite of what the whole patent system is meant to achieve. It's supposed to provide incentive for people to innovate, not create bureaucratic obstacles for them.
And there is also the fact that software in it's very essence is different from physical objects. Software can be quickly distributed from just a single copy, while physical inventions have to be manufactured one by one. Software evolves much faster, and subjecting the development of ideas for software to the same slow bureaucratic rules that apply to physical objects can hinder the overall efficiency of the development of software. But whatever the case, people have to be able to focus on creating ideas to improve technology as their main occupation for making a living, and patents are supposed to allow them to do that.
For those wondering... (Score:5, Informative)
That said, the patent itself isn't regarding a Help Icon. It is the function where you first click on the help icon/button, and then on the particular function you need help with.
In court, Just System insisted that the Matsushita Patent was for a help ICON, which is usuall an item on the desktop, much like a file or folder, whereas the Just System Ichitaro used a button. The second point was that the "help" key on a keyboard already performed said function, and taking the keyboard to a GUI analogy did not require any insight, but was rather an obvious move as more and more keyboard functions were moved to the GUI.
The lower court found that the "icon" was used loosely and would be found to include the buttons-with-pictures as found in Ichitaro. As for the keyboard-to-gui concept, the court found that it would take more than obvious insight to make the leap, thus it was a valid invention.
Quite obviously, Matsushita was quite pleased that the court bought their story, while Just System was quite pissed off. By appealing to a higher court though, they did not need to immediately follow the ruling.
Whether you think this was fair game or not, keep in mind that this is pretty much what Microsoft did too with Win95 and IE. Keep the court case going long enough that the Win95/IE bundle was no longer relevant.
Re:For those wondering... (Score:3, Interesting)
Ichitaro is here to stay (Score:3, Informative)
SDRC (now UGS) I-DEAS CAD Software has this and (Score:2)
You click an icon, the cursor changes to question mark, then you click something else of interest.
A browser appears with whatever relevant information happens to be on hand for that particular item.
Of all the help systems, I like this one the best. Beats looking through indexes, of things you may or may not actually know about, to maybe sort of find the information of interest. (Assuming it exists in the first place.)
Re:For those wondering... (Score:2)
Re:For those wondering... (Score:4, Funny)
This is yet another demonstration of how important patents are in the world of computer software. They are here for a reason and that is to protect those companies that spend their money on research and development. Surely Matsushita spent a lot of their resources in developing this advanced help technology and deserve a lot more than seeing some other company make unauthorized use of it. It doesn't matter wether Just System wrote from scratch their own implementation because they are plainly copying an IDEA, which surely is a great loss for whoever came up with it.
We should also thank patents because they help make courts throughout the world a better place. When we spend our time fighting for our rights to make exclusive use of certain icons and functions we do not have the time to commit serious crimes. An even further step could be to bring to court more trivial matters like unauthorized clicking of buttons by end users.
Patents also teach us about the importance of being selfish. Don't get me wrong: usually being selfish is seen as a bad thing; but to some extent you have to worry about yourself as well. I really appreciate it that our governments are starting to realize how important it is to have full control over anything you might have ever thought.
Ideas need to be protected.
Re:That sounds a lot like... (Score:2, Informative)
See msdn [microsoft.com] for more information
Re:That sounds a lot like... (Score:2)
Re:That sounds a lot like... (Score:2)
Yeah, it does sound almost exactly like that. Almost every dialog Microsoft makes uses it. (Although I suppose they could have licensed it or just disabled the feature in the Japanese version.)
Easiest way to demo this is to bring up the Desktop properties window. The little [?] will be in the righthand corner next to the X. You can also right click on most of the items to see a context menu with "What's This?" on it.
It's also used in Microsoft Office applications and IE. In fact, I can't really thi
Re:That sounds a lot like... (Score:2)
we're not alone (Score:4, Funny)
Hopefully Nintendo does not sue /. for use of that Linux penguin icon, which is an obvious ripoff of Super Mario 64's snow level character.
Re:we're not alone (Score:2)
Re:we're not alone (Score:2)
Dear Godzilla (Score:5, Funny)
They told me to tell you that your mother is a dishonorable dirty woman.
attatchment [jpomap.png]
Re:Dear Godzilla (Score:2, Funny)
Wait a sec (Score:2, Funny)
Even more filler? (Score:4, Informative)
By gosh the summary's innacuracy is comparable to Microsoft marketing propaganda. The article does not state clearly "that the use of a help icon" was the cause of the dispute. It does say
The Gnome pics, now this? filler for nerds, stuff that doesn't happen?
MOD PARENT UP (Score:2)
Heck, the "ordered the destruction" bit was pretty misleading as well. The product wasn't ordered destroyed, just existing stocks of the product. The company still has the product, and I'm sure if they win an appeal or if they change their product's help system, they can put the product back on the shelves.
Re:Even more filler? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Even more filler? (Score:2, Funny)
Humans have been killing each other since societal organization indirectly caused overpopulation. We must be new here. It must be normal.
Just humans as usual. ;)
Destroyed? (Score:3, Insightful)
The Japanese (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:The Japanese (Score:2, Funny)
reincorporate in the EU? (Score:2)
Re:reincorporate in the EU? (Score:2)
Follow the Money.... (Score:5, Informative)
"Matsushita Electric, in close cooperation with Microsoft, will develop a high-performance personal computer suited to the advanced image-processing demands of the 21st century," said Dr. Yoshitomi Nagaoka, vice president of Matsushita Electric's AVC Company..."
Who stands to profit if this software is knocked off the market?
Re:Follow the Money.... (Score:2)
Ah, yeah. You found proof that a large (perhaps the largest) electronics manufacturer on the planet is doing something together with the largest software manufacturer on the planet.
Quite something. Who'd have thought?
OH COME ON (Score:2, Funny)
Japanese Tongue Twister About Patents (Score:3, Funny)
Translation: The Tokyo patent office hurriedly rejected the permission today.
Parent is not flamebait (Score:3, Informative)
The above gibberish is not a parody of Japanese. It is an actual Japanese tonguetwister.
Tokyo -- Tokyo
tokkyo -- patent
kyoka-kyoku -- 'permissions office'
kyou -- today
kyuukyo -- hurriedly
kyoka -- permission
kyakka -- rejection
This Statement: (Score:2)
And somebody just criticized my opposition to IP laws because "the rest of the world has adopted the American model"...like that meant something...
Well, here you go...
Re:This Statement: (Score:2)
MacOS 7 as prior art? (Score:5, Insightful)
AFAIK the bubble help gave context sensitive information on GUI elements after activating it with a button.
Apparently MacOS 7 came out two years before the patent was filed. Here's a screenshot [emuunlim.com] of MacOS 7 with the help icon and a copyright notice.
Ichitaro and JustSystem (Score:5, Insightful)
In regards to Open Source alternatives such as OpenOffice, they are sorley lacking in Kanji conversion, dictionaries, and layout flexibility. I know that Turbo and Others put effort into this, but progress is slow...
Re:Ichitaro and JustSystem (Score:4, Insightful)
Being allowed to successfully sue over a help icon is not a minimal event. Bad judgements like these are used as precedents in later cases regardless of the importance of the initial trial. Many a bad law has been formed on the basis of a neighbour's hedge.
TWW
Re:Ichitaro and JustSystem (Score:5, Insightful)
The issue is not Ichitaro. The issue is being able to develop software without having to look over your shoulder at the big corporations with their patent portfolios all the time. If decisions like this are allowed to stand, then small businesses cannot create software - because if anything they produce is any good, they will be sued out of existence by corporations with portfolios they can't match.
It's my view that software patents should not be allowed at all. But if they are going to be allowed the bar for non-obviousness and novelty has to be very high indeed.
Does anyone have any published financials for (Score:2)
Micorosft suddenly 'licensed' thier help patent to fund thier lawers?
I say, if the shit hits the fan, the company shoudl open source the software to GNU, and then
The the company can run support and customisation for all users who now have the free version.
Then when the other company goes b
Publicly disgrace company (Score:4, Interesting)
I certainly won't be buying anything Panasonic for a long while. I hope that by making it a public disgrace for a company to endanger 78% of the installed office environments in Japan (think what loss of productivity would occur if they spread enough FUD to make those people buy thier product, and install it, and learn it?).
Japan has a very honourable work ethic in terms of employee/employer relations, they value the company, so the political fall out over this may yet to come.
strange definition of competitor (Score:2, Insightful)
May as well face it, this is the future (Score:5, Insightful)
bah (Score:3, Insightful)
And as things are going, too far might not be very farther.
Erm (Score:2, Interesting)
I would have thought that in 1985 Apple would have already had a help icon on their Macs...
Time to call your broker (Score:3, Insightful)
Time to sell AMZN and MSFT. They are protecting themselves to death.
Screenshots (Score:3, Interesting)
Can anybody get a screenshot of what exactly they are arguing over since it's not just an icon?
Some screenshots of the offending icon (Score:5, Informative)
One missing fact... ok a few (Score:5, Insightful)
The Microsoft/Matshusita link is tenuous, what computer hardware/software company has not worked with Microsoft at some point on a collaboritive project? Sony? IBM? DELL? Compaq/HP? Using the logic that was put forth earlier anyone Apple sues could be construed as being motivated from M$...
Lets see if anyone can get some real info on this. Instead of conjucture from a few short news blurbs that contradict each other.
What would happen if... (Score:3, Interesting)
*destruction*? (Score:3, Insightful)
I hardly think a company would really give up a product like this, most people arn't as lazy as CmdrTaco (who took downhis JavaInvaders game rather then change the name to JInvaders or something to avoid infringing Sun's trademark.)
Re:some interesting ideas on patent law (Score:4, Interesting)
RIAA != ASCAP/BMI/SESAC.
RIAA are evil bastards who exploit musicians, degrade the art of music, and will be first against the wall when the revolution comes.
ASCAP et. al, while flawed in execution, are based on a good idea: songwriters should get a cut when someone makes money off a song they wrote. If I sell a CD with a cover of "Tangled Up in Blue", or play it at a gig at my local tavern, these are the guys who make sure Dylan gets his nickel out of the profits. (Google for "songwriter royalties performance mechanical" [google.com].) However - and this is key - if I'm playing for fun not profit, Bob doesn't get a penny.
For years I've been suggesting that royalties for copying recordings ought to work the same way - share for free, but if you're selling the artist gets a cut.
Re:Prior Art? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Openoffice? (Score:2)
Looks good to me but I do not speak a word of japanese.
Re:Openoffice? (Score:2)