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United States Privacy Security

Feds To Have Unified Biometric Federal ID System 326

Posted by michael from the swipe-in dept.
An anonymous submitter writes "There have been rumors flying among the scientific community about a proposed standard for 'Personal Identity Verification' by the National Institute for Standards and Technology (NIST). According to the standard, all federal employees and contractors would require a 'PIV "card" that is "personalized" with data needed by the PIV system to later grant access to the subscriber to Federal facilities and information systems.' Besides the likely efficacy questions, concerns in the scientific community concern what impact this will have on our foreign collaborations (or even grad students)."
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Feds To Have Unified Biometric Federal ID System More

Feds To Have Unified Biometric Federal ID System

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  • Bah (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Turn-X Alphonse ( 789240 ) on Saturday December 04, 2004 @07:37PM (#10998837) Journal
    How long untill they go, "We did a trial, it worked well. Lets use it to track terrorists!" and start to try and force it upon the people this way?

    • Re:Bah (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Bi()hazard ( 323405 ) on Saturday December 04, 2004 @08:04PM (#10998972) Homepage Journal
      This is an "antiterrorist meaning anticonstitution" threat with little in common with our existing photo ID's, and here's why:

      American photo ID's are not currently computer readable. There's no national standard other than passports, which don't lend themselves to this purpose. PIV would allow the government to set up a card reader in front of any building, lab, or computer system, and block anybody without a valid card.

      Now the government can apply all the wonders of modern technology to track every movement and activity of anybody in their system with an ID card. That's fine in top secret military labs, but "all federal employees and contractors" includes a lot of civilians and low-level people just trying to get their jobs done in the face of stupid policies. Many slashdotters who work on ordinary, civilian things for companies with government contracts would be required to sign up. Now, just to do an ordinary civilian job, you'll be tracked so heavily 5 guys in CIA headquarters are thinking about your breathing. Just think about your breathing-you have to constantly inhale and exhale to avoid suffocating. Now the government will know all about it!

      That means Alice the undergrad researcher can't even access the computer system the lab runs on without dragging the boss over to log her in. Which will be impossible on the weekends or at night.

      If you're a foreign researcher or student, photo ID includes the passport from your country of origin.
      PIV requires going to wherever they give these out, supplying an array of biometric information, submitting to yet another background check, etc. You can't start working until all these additional bureaucratic hoops have been jumped through, and if your card is ever lost or damaged, you're going to be in for one hell of an interrogation to prove you're not up to something. And, of course, if these PIV guys decline your application, you're screwed. Government policies are already driving away foreign students and scientists. Why are we bringing in low cost foreign labor to undercut Americans while driving away the highly educated foreigners who actually have something to contribute?

      And God forbid you actually try to collaborate with anyone who isn't in the US. No PIV? No access to the computer system! Passing restricted materials to your fellow researchers overseas? Working around PIV makes you a criminal. You terrorist!

      Once all government systems have been locked down with PIV, and hundreds of thousands of ordinary civilians working for government contractors have been PIV'ed and depend on PIV for their jobs, the government will be well on its way towards rolling out a national computerized ID card system.

      Ask yourselves: In SOVIET RUSSIA, would the party force PIV on YOU?!?

      The answer is yes. Is America no different?

      • The frothers are out in full force... (Score:4, Insightful)

        by 3l1za ( 770108 ) on Saturday December 04, 2004 @08:45PM (#10999141)
        Now, just to do an ordinary civilian job, you'll be tracked so heavily 5 guys in CIA headquarters are thinking about your breathing.

        Oh please.

        In order for your fantasy to be realized, we need to have this many CIA employees (who are not, BTW, legally allowed to spy on US citizens):

        ((# of gov't employees) + (# of civilian employees working on gov't contract)) * 5

        Does this seem likely to you? GMAB. Before this could be realized there'd have to be a bill allocating funds to pay all those spooks and that would never pass Congress because... Congressional reps are elected by their constituents who would have to approve this (or else the reps would lose their jobs... and show me a gov't teat sucker eager to lose his job and I'll show you a solution for x^3 + y^3 = z^3 where x != y != z != 0).

        You people are fanatics. And your ranting is actually counter productive because it's so hyperbolic and seems to reject *any* form of IDing apparently without offering solutions to our quite impressive problems.

        And while I was initially very against a national ID system, given the tremendous loopholes our current ID system appears to have, I am becoming more open to the possibility (but only if it were coupled with more vigorous attempts to boot those who are here illegally from this country (many of the 19 hijackers were NOT here legally) as well as more concentrated attempts to control our borders).
        • "CIA employees (who are not, BTW, legally allowed to spy on US citizens)"

          Ya kidding me? You don't think they do?
          • The CIA doesn't spy on Americans. The NSA does. I'm not saying that I think the CIA would necessarily keep itself in check, but like every government agency the NSA surely hates anyone stepping on its territory, and they certainly have the resources to notice if the CIA does anything in the US.

          • Re:The frothers are out in full force... (Score:4, Insightful)

            by ip_fired ( 730445 ) on Saturday December 04, 2004 @09:06PM (#10999246) Homepage
            No, I'm pretty sure they don't do it legally. And since doing things illegally can get them in a lot of trouble, I don't think they do.

            If they discover something suspicious, they turn it over to the FBI. The FBI is allowed to "spy" on US citizens when they follow the proper procedures.

            Really, I wish people would appreciate what these organizations do instead of always bashing them. They keep us safe. Without them, I'm sure many really bad things would happen to us.

            Just ask Osama and fanatics if they would like the FBI to butt out of their business and I'm sure they'd respond in the affirmative.
            • what happens is the US has this arrangement with its ECHELON partners so they spy on each other's citizens and turn over the relevant info to the interested party.

              this way all the partners avoid the embarrassment of being caught spying on their own citizens because "some other country did it".
            • Actually, it's probably the NSA who'd be doing most of the spying on us. It's their primary job. Plus, they have a larger budget than the FBI and CIA combined, IIRC.
          • Why bother spying when you can just scan the biometric database for government-defined "irregularities"?

            Genetics is the new gospel these days anyway. Just store the DNA and scan the DNA for sequences of genetic "patterns" or "defects" that makes people more prone to terrorism... the terrorism gene... then preemptively arrest them!

            YEAH!

        • this many CIA employees (who are not, BTW, legally allowed to spy on US citizens)

          There are a bunch of other agencies as well as political police (I forget what the USA calls them) and then real, ordinary law enforcement.

          Before this could be realized there'd have to be a bill allocating funds to pay all those spooks

          Just call it PATRIOT or VOTE_AGAINST_THIS_AND_YOU'RE_GAY or a similar stupid way to name a bill and no-one will dare vote against it. If that doesn't work, just sell weapons to a sworn ememy of

        • Both terrorists AND illegal aliens have made
          use of the vast differences in ID requirements
          between the states, as well as enforcement.
          Considering the number of incidents reported
          over the past 4 - 5 years regarding malfeasance
          on the part of government employees (SS Admin,
          and Dept. of Motor Vehicles especially), it is
          no wonder that identity theft is such a "growth"
          industry in this country. While the Metro DC
          area's largest immigrant population is Hispanic,
          just recently a document (Birth Cert., Driver
          Licenses,
        • While the grandparents fantasy is more than a little bit of a stretch, this does fall into the category of "one step closer."

          Observe -- American citizens are allowed to travel between states and (for the most part) out of the country with little to no oversight. Before the widespread use of the credit card, it was literally impossible to track the interstate movements of an individual without going out into the field and tracking people down.

          Before the introduction of a formalized passport system it was

      • Re:Bah (Score:3, Insightful)

        by ip_fired ( 730445 )
        You're overreacting. This is not really that big of an inconvenience considering what they are protecting. It's not like they are tracking you at the grocery store (Walmart does that, not the gov't :).

        If you work at a government installation, they are entitled to implement some security measures.

        I work at a research foundation (affiliated with a state university) where they make satellites for NASA and have a few military contracts. In order to even qualify for the contracts the foundation has to meet cer

      • Re:Bah (Score:5, Informative)

        by psifishdot ( 699920 ) on Saturday December 04, 2004 @09:00PM (#10999210) Homepage
        If you're a foreign researcher or student, photo ID includes the passport from your country of origin. PIV requires going to wherever they give these out, supplying an array of biometric information, submitting to yet another background check, etc.

        This bites. I am a Canadian graduate student and my group collaborates with a DoE lab in the United States. Already, this lab has had problems with foreign collaborators who are not from Canada, Europe or Australia being denied entry to the country. This lab has already lost some of its top people due to Homeland Security kicking them out (i.e. not renewing their visas). Furthermore, they have had problems bringing in collaborators with unique expertise required to upgrade laboratory equipment.

        Our Canadian group sends undergraduate and graduate students to this lab to gain experience through our collaboration. We have a large stake in this lab, and have a lot of equipment there. If we can't send our undergraduates and master's students, because of the long wait times to go through the background check, then what is the point of collaborating with the US? We'll have to pack up our equipment and send it to our collaborators in Germany or Sweden.

      • Re:Bah (Score:5, Insightful)

        by RayBender ( 525745 ) on Saturday December 04, 2004 @09:57PM (#10999461) Homepage
        I have a funny story along these lines..

        A few years ago I was working on a NASA project - nothing secret. We had a Canadian summer student come and work for us on a small job (writing some code to control some optics). As a foreign national he had to get clearance, but he was allowed to start working on writing some code for the project while we waited. Six weeks later his application was rejected and he was no longer allowed to touch any of our computers, or look at any code, including the code he'd written himself. Now he works for a European project doing the same sort of stuff, and I know they are very happy to have him. Stupid, short-sighted xenophobic policies like that do nothing but hurt this country.

        I think the problem with this kind of stuff is that it's the people who are valuable, not the ideas. Policies that try to lock down ideas just drive away good people.

        Why do we Americans always seem to assume that we're somehow that much smarter than everyone else, and if we keep our research secret then the Chinese, or Indians, or God forbid, the Canadians won't figure it out on their own? Somehow we have a situation where the security folks (who it seems are all all-American white boys from Texas) write policies to prevent the scientists (who are to a surprising extent foreign immigrants) from actually getting anything done. Of course, in the end, it's the scientists who come up with the technology to keep the secirity guys (and their families) safe. That's just too complicated for these dumb white boys to grasp, I guess.

        When it comes to basic research, it's amazing how even seemingly trivial impediments to access and communication can utterly inhibit progress. Sure, it's only a biometric card, but the additional hassle will mean that you are that much less likely to hire say, that Polish kid who just happens to actually have a good education in math. Given that U.S. high schools just aren't producing kids that know math, that's a real problem. And yes, I know I do most of my useful work late at night and on weekends, so inhibiting access on non-standard hours is a real pain.

        My most fundamental objection to all this though, is simply that I don't WANT to live in a society where Big Brother constantly monitors my every move, knows what my retina looks like, keeps track of who I meet and what I read, what I say, and how I spend my money. I understand that access control to military research might be needed, and that's why I don't do military work. But when they want civilian researchers (like NASA) to follow suit, then I don't have any choice. And I hate that.

        • Re:Bah (Score:2, Insightful)

          by psifishdot ( 699920 )
          Why do we Americans always seem to assume that we're somehow that much smarter than everyone else, and if we keep our research secret then the Chinese, or Indians, or God forbid, the Canadians won't figure it out on their own?

          I really liked your post, but I wanted to add just one thing. In today's scientific world, it's not possible for one nation to 'go it alone' on large projects. Look at the ISS or ITER. They survive because they are international projects. National projects, like the Superconducti

        • if we keep our research secret then the Chinese

          Obviously you didn't read the newspapers about the massive intelligence failure at Los Alamos which gave China getting all government documents relating to the US nuclear program. We are of course talking about hundreds of thousands of documents which were conveniently taken out of storage and shipped over months to the agent.

          With that and the intelligence failure in Iraq, do you really want to turn over ID procedures to such a crowd instead of letting depart

      • No, because in Soviet Russia they probably would have decided it was too inefficient even by their standards. Just because they were totalitarian doesn't mean they were completely stupid.
      • American photo ID's are not currently computer readable.

        I don't know about you, but my drivers license has both a mag strip and a 2d bar code (blockcode?).
        • not only do driver's license frequently have mag stripes, but the mag stripe data is in a standard format more than likely.
    • If only they cowardly fascists controlling our government would realize that (court) trials have worked well for hundreds of years here, safeguarding our security *and* our liberty, and use it to track terrorist networks, jail/interrogate them, and bust them up as the media-savvy mafias they really are.

    • Re:Bah (Score:3, Informative)

      by ManxStef ( 469602 )
      Be thankful you're not in the UK: the government is hell-bent on forcing ID cards [theregister.co.uk], with embedded biometrics (facial, maybe others), onto a public that doesn't want them and doesn't want to pay for them.

      All sorts of benefits are being touted; David Blunkett, Home Secretary, had this to say regarding these cards use:

      Identity cards would help us tackle the organised criminals and terrorists who use fake identities to carry out their crimes. They would also aid the fight against illegal working and immigrati

  • 1984 revisited (Score:4, Funny)

    by cpghost ( 719344 ) on Saturday December 04, 2004 @07:39PM (#10998844) Homepage

    Big Brother is watching you (using standard protocols!).

  • Their fancy pants technology is no match for a $2 pair of warm, fuzzy mittens. Try to read a print off of that polyester.

  • On the one hand.... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Icarus1919 ( 802533 ) on Saturday December 04, 2004 @07:42PM (#10998860)
    I suppose it's understandable that the government would want to keep better track of the people working for it, to help prevent spying and other such things. However, I can also see how one could make the argument that it'll be a slippery slope type situation, and that it won't be long until ALL of us have cards with biometric info and the government watching everything we do. It's a hard call.

    Personally, I'd rather take the chance that a few spies might infiltrate the government and not risk a 1984 Big Brother scenario.
    • "Personally, I'd rather take the chance that a few spies might infiltrate the government and not risk a 1984 Big Brother scenario."
      You should take a deep breath, that's insane. Look, the military has a completely different system of government, if you will, in that you sacrifice some personal liberties once you join. Yet, that hasn't spilled into society in general (on scale). Why should we believe this couldn't be kept separate?
      • Because the military is completely different. Once you join, they own your ass, and can jail you (or in wartime kill you) if don't comply. I'm not saying that this is bad; it's not like they don't tell you up front. But it's not at all like the gradual erosion of privacy and liberties of civilians.

        Besides, spies have and will always continue to infiltrate our government and just about every major government. Sacrificing liberty just makes this seem less likely more than it actually fights it.

    • "However, I can also see how one could make the argument that it'll be a slippery slope type situation..."

      Of course. All it takes is an appropriate level of paranoia and a refusal to consider the logistics involved to facilitate the conspiracy. Yeesh.

      "Personally, I'd rather take the chance that a few spies..."

      Uh, pardon, but screw you. Chancing a few spies is not tied to risking a BB scenario. Load of straw there.

  • And Here is A Demo (Score:5, Funny)

    by tonyr60 ( 32153 ) on Saturday December 04, 2004 @07:42PM (#10998861)
    Here is a demo of PIV in operation http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/OptInstr/piv/pivdemo.h tm [nasa.gov]

    It shows a group of people walking past the PIV system and getting blasted with lasers. I assume it thought they were all bad guys (or gals)....

  • USA is turning into Soviet (Score:4, Insightful)

    by hhg ( 200613 ) on Saturday December 04, 2004 @07:46PM (#10998881)
    USA is about to turn into a police-state, big brother-style. For a few years I have thought about going to MIT (I'm form Norway), but as of todays survailence-policies I no longer want to. You are becoming paranoid, your government is fooling and scaring you all into submission.

  • As a grad student working for the Fed.... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Mad_Rain ( 674268 ) on Saturday December 04, 2004 @07:46PM (#10998884) Journal
    I'm just a little bit curious about how pervasive this information will get. I can understand that if I worked for the FBI, I can expect a serious background check, and I don't know if I'd have an objection to having biometric information taken in addition to work in a security field. But I do research at a VA hospital - I can't imagine what information or materials that I'd have access to that would require that kind of clearance or identification process.
    • I can't imagine what information or materials that I'd have access to that would require that kind of clearance or identification process.

      Don't take the program at face value. If you do, it won't make sense. Is there really any information that requires this kind of ID? Does anyone think the ID will really be effective in stopping data leaks? This measure is about control of people, not information. Neither you nor the thousands of low level clerks, bus drivers and others like that really need this

  • concerns in the scientific community concern what impact this will have on our foreign collaborations

    Did I miss something when the US mandated all foreign-born visitors to the US to have coded passports this year? I think I must have, because my passport was issued by the UK embassy in Tokyo, I have to get another passport (at a cost of GBP80 or $100) before I can visit the US.

    So I have two observations: Since when did the US ever give a rats arse about non-US citizens, and I think the hundreds of thousa

  • Oh what's with the paranoia? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by laughingcoyote ( 762272 ) <barghesthowl&excite,com> on Saturday December 04, 2004 @07:53PM (#10998913) Journal

    Not for national ID's, in any way, in any form. It'll be just for federal workers-for right now.

    When the Social Security Act was put into place, those who were concerned that the Social Security number would become some type of nationalized tracking system were ridiculed and called paranoid. They even wrote it into the Social Security Act that the number couldn't be used for any tracking purpose other than to determine who gets SS benefits.

    Nothing to worry about here, it's easy to see just how well THAT worked. I mean, there were even people who said that you wouldn't even be able to get a job or a driver's license without a social security #. What a bunch of paranoid freaks! That certainly never did happen.

    • I think the question you should be asking yourself is: "Has this negatively effected my life?". I mean, why is it bad that your social security card makes it easy to identify yourself? Why would it be worse if your biometric information made it easier to identify yourself? Are you afraid that the government will be able to track you down? Everything you do leaves a paper trail behind, if you live in the real world. And if you don't then you won't have a problem, since you won't ever need to use your b

      • Re:Oh what's with the paranoia? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by laughingcoyote ( 762272 ) <barghesthowl&excite,com> on Saturday December 04, 2004 @08:29PM (#10999086) Journal

        The "Why worry about it if you've got nothing to hide?" line of reasoning has been used to support every repressive, totalitarian government in existence.

        I don't want someone installing cameras in my living room. That doesn't mean I do things that are illegal there, it means I value my privacy. I don't want to be watched by cameras every time I use a city street. That doesn't mean I'm going to go out and commit muggings, it means I don't like the Big Brother idea.

        It is a fundamental principle of freedom that uncalled-for invasions of privacy ARE an ill effect, in and of themselves, especially if the potential for abuse clearly exists. Which here it most certainly does.

        If you're concerned so little about your privacy, please just make some simple changes in your profile. First, change the email address setting to display that address with no filtering. Then, please add your real name to the appropriate section in your profile, and make a journal entry also containing your home address and phone number.

        Not entirely comfortable with that idea? I wouldn't imagine so. That's why privacy is valuable.

        • No, this is not the "why worry if you've got nothing to hide" argument. I never said anything remotely like that. Forget about RTFA, at least read my fucking comment before you reply to it.

          This system is about cutting costs by implementing a unified biometric standard. It's about increasing the connivence of government workers by simplifying clearance and access issues.

          This does not give the government any new capabilities. It simply makes it easier to do what they've always done. If you're worried a

          • I did, in fact, read your comment, which requested to know why such things are a harm. I responded to that that an invasion of privacy (which, in many cases, making identification "easier" is), is in itself a harm.

            Certainly, some might disagree with me, and you might disagree with me, but I was responding to what you said. Ease and pervasiveness of identification, for example, makes both the ease and the severity of identity theft proportionately greater. This is only one harm that is built-in and inherent

            • Well, some may say that the use of biometric information information will lower the risk of identity theft by making it more technically difficult to achieve.

              As far as anonymity goes, all I'm saying is that if you're a part of the real world, you are not anonymous. If you don't mind living in a cabin in montana, then this identification system shouldn't bother you there. You shouldn't expect to be able to work for a government lab or make large financial transactions anonymously, because all the people y

    • Re:Oh what's with the paranoia? (Score:4, Funny)

      by hengist ( 71116 ) on Saturday December 04, 2004 @08:43PM (#10999129)
      A few years ago I visited a research company in the USA (which shall remain nameless, since they do Homeland Security work now and I don't want to cause difficulties for them).

      When I turned up each morning, I was asked to sign in to the visitor's register. When my host (the CEO of the company) first showed me where it was, I saw a column entitled "SSN". When I asked him what an SSN was, he replied, with a combination of humour and bitterness, "Social Security Number - you don't have one, you haven't been 'marked'".

      Really, really glad I'm a New Zealander.

  • Wireless? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by SparksMcGee ( 812424 ) on Saturday December 04, 2004 @07:55PM (#10998923)
    As it currently stands, the concept of an ID "card" isn't too radically different from a photo ID--the human face is a fundamentally unique and wholly recognizable factor, and this would just be incorporating more data to form a more accurate and complete picture (don't get me wrong, I feel that this step is unnecessary and can lead to tremendous potential for abuse. It's the first step down a slippery slope towards ever less privacy). But what's especially worrying is the potential for wireless biometric ID systems. You have on the one hand Big Brother constantly able to keep tabs on you, anywhere (whereas with a card you can just refuse to patronize places requiring it's use and, again, it's not a huge departure from a driver's license), which will inevitably lead to tighter and tighter control just because the government can, though naturally hyped-up concerns like terrorism or sedition will be used as justification. Or perhaps even worse for joe average would be the potential for targeted advertising. Remember in "minority report" where Tom Cruise walks into a store only to have personalozed advertisements fly at him based on his biometric ID and past buying records? This currenttrial might actually as it stands have some legitimate applications (I certinaly, for instance, want access to nuclear facilities to be as secure as possible), but it's our responsibility not to let it become ubiquitous and especially not wireless, in which case privacy as we know it could essentially ceased to exist.
    • Let me get this straight... giving a school janitor the same kind of ID card as a nuclear safety inspector is a good idea? When everyone is using the same kind of ID, all it takes is one bright 'IT-Terrorist' to open every lock. The idea is just stupid.
  • Unless the Fed allows a user-definable and user-personalizable identification number to go along with the PIV, it ain't going to fly.

    Remember the one most important thing.... Biometric is NOT revokeable. Once stolen, forever stolen.
  • This sounds like a Microsoft Passport for real life.

    There are some (even though not very many) sites that you can't use without MS Passport (hotmail). It'd suck if someday you couldn't enter a supermarket without a BioID.

    Welcome to 1984... i mean 2004.

  • It's too late for foreign academics (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    We're just going to have to accept the fact that the Large Set Of Disparate, Often Unrelated Bush Administration Sponsored Policies Which Are For Whatever Reason Addressed With The Label "War On Terrorism" is going to end the U.S.'s former status as intellectual capital of the world. The brain drain that the world outside the U.S. has suffered as a result of their best and brightest going to the U.S. for grad school and trying to stay there is going to stop as those best and brightest are made increasingly

  • It all depends on the data on the ID (Score:4, Interesting)

    by AtomicJake ( 795218 ) on Saturday December 04, 2004 @08:13PM (#10999016)

    Having IDs that are hard to counterfeit and hard to be used by other unauthorized persons is the idea of having IDs. So, all bullet points about the goals of this PIV in the official project narrative (MS-Word doc) [nist.gov] are actually wanted.

    However, the danger to exploit such PIVs as big brother equipement is given. Especially scaring is that the PIV shall hold fingerprints; this is scaring because those fingerprints will be registered centrally in a database. The effects are that even if your fingerprints show up somewhere remotely to a crime (e.g. same place but completely different time -- and they stick), you are will become a suspect or, at least, a potential witness. And possibly you will then be on the observation list without knowing it even remotely. And all this has nothing to do with a federal agency, in which you might work (or have worked several years ago, for that matter).

    Fingerprints are only one example. So, the problem is the data -- and where else (than on the PIV) it gets stored, and how it can be accessed.



  • Who do you want to be today?

  • We aren't talking about a national ID card, people. It's like having a badge for work, except it works in multiple physical locations.

    It's absolutely ridiculous that access is controlled at each facility by a completely separate system. Contractors that have to go between contracts, or have a client spread across multiple buildings, currently have to carry a valid ID for each building they access. It's a major pain.

    People always complain about government inefficiencies. This is a good way to limit one
  • accept biometric scan at work or to enter secure computing facilities?

    To get at my servers after hours, it's a PIN and a palm scan. I'm happy everyone else entering the facility is required to do the same. It keeps my gear from disappearing.

    What is so different about applying the same concept to sentitive government facilities?

  • maybe if this gets out of hand the difficulty of foreigners getting these ID's will accidentally reverse the trend of IT jobs getting outsourced to India?
    Nah, what am I thinking, the government always covers their collective asses to make sure there are no unintended positive side effects to anything they do, couldn't have that.

  • While not biometric... (Score:3, Informative)

    by BobSutan ( 467781 ) on Saturday December 04, 2004 @09:00PM (#10999213)
    The military has moved to using Common Access Cards as our IDs, and in a lot of places are required to use it for network access, medical facilities, etc and can act as a PKI smartcard. It was only a matter of time before Biometrics were rolled into it.
    • Yes, I believe it is a Cyberflex JavaCard smart card and does have the Java Card Forum standard Biometric API installed.

      So all they need now is the Biometric infrastructure to use this aspect of the card. Which I beleive is what the story is pointing to.

      • You know what, I think you're right. Now that I think about it, I had to submit a fingerprint when I got my card for Biometric access (should they ever implement it). I can't believe I forgot about that...even more reason not to lose your ID. With your medical details, military history, and identification details someone could really put a hurtin' on your life if they wanted to.

  • OT (Score:2)

    by Stevyn ( 691306 )
    I think historians will look upon the turn of the millennium as the decline and ultimate self destruction of the American Empire.

    Face it, we're fucked.

  • Let me get this straight... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Fallen Andy ( 795676 ) on Saturday December 04, 2004 @09:05PM (#10999241)
    Now, let me repeat that . Let me get this straight. You really want to ID university students in a university environment. Hmm. Some chance that'll work. Point 1): they will break it in 5 minutes. This is the nature of universities - we ask the students to be imaginative and creative and they do this on steroids...

    Point 2): Universities are inherently slightly subversive and anarchistic. We value them precisely for this (it's how good new ideas get spawned). You want to check badges? Get a life.

    No. If you really want to waste your money in a rational way you should listen to how a lot of students play red vs. blue in their spare time.

    We did it even in Bristol UK c.a. 1980 (and I predicted something like the japanese nerve gas thing on the basis of the limited info we had 15 years early). (To be honest I was scared that the IRA would do it, and thankfully they didn't).

    So, all of you spooks out there wake up and listen. Universities are your best friends, not your worst enemies... So, teacher (always wanted to say this) leave those kids alone...

  • Reduced foreign grad-student numbers (Score:4, Informative)

    by hengist ( 71116 ) on Saturday December 04, 2004 @09:06PM (#10999250)
    The USA has already suffered a significant drop in the number of foreign grad students enrolling. The number one reason given for this drop is intrusive and over-bearing background checks, a long waiting period and capricious immigration officials.

    Don't care about foreigners? You should, as many institutions are now struggling to maintain student numbers. This has implications for funding, which in turn has implications for future research, which in turn has implications for the USA's future prosperity. The November issue of IEEE Spectrum has a short article on this.

    Think the foreign grad students can be replaced by domestic students? Nope, the US education system is falling further behind in science education. See this article:

    http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/DyeHard/story?i d= 276464&page=1

    The Bush regime is rapidly pushing the USA towards facism, and the American people are too wrapped up in their own jingoism to see or care about it.

    • The Bush regime is rapidly pushing the USA towards facism, and the American people are too wrapped up in their own jingoism to see or care about it.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi [wikipedia.org]
    • I agree that the new policies wrt background checks are reducing the number of foreign students comming to the US in general, but there are also other contributing factors including the improvements in many foreign universities. I've observed that many people who don't like these policies can't simply disagree with them and promote a useful altenative (what alternative would you propose that would improve security that would have fewer negative side effects), they have to throw around epithets like facism a

  • Rejoice America (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 04, 2004 @09:48PM (#10999426)
    Fallujah Residents Face Choice: Retina Scan and Take ID Card...Or Die

    http://infowars.com/articles/ps/falluja_idcards_ or _die.htm

    A caller to the Alex Jones show played a segment from Tom Brokaw's last broadcast on NBC which featured a report from Iraq clearly stating that residents of Fallujah (civilians, NOT insurgents) would be forced to give fingerprints, retina scan and take an ID card or be killed.

    Here is the transcript from the report

    Reporter: "So far the plan is for most of the city's 250,000 residents to return in stages and first only a few thousand will be let in.

    They'll be fingerprinted, given a retina scan and then an ID card, which will only allow them to travel around their homes or to nearby aid centers which are now being built.

    The Marines will be authorized to use deadly force against those breaking the rules

    Tom?"

    Brokaw: "Richard, what's the latest on the election?"

    Alex has been documenting for years in his acclaimed Police State videos the fact that this same system is being introduced in the US.

    The so-called 'liberation' of Iraq is a test run for when the soldiers over there now become police in the US. From sound wave weapons to detention camps and torture, everything being inflicted on the Iraqis is being introduced in America.

    Alex Jones comments....

    In 1999 I traveled to Oakland California to cover the Marine Corps execution of Operation Urban Warrior. Thousands of Marines opnely trained to biometrically scan American citizens, seperate the men, women and children in a concentration camp environment, and conduct interrogations. Video in my film, Police State 2000 shows Marine Corps officers questioning role-players who were posing as American resistance fighters. Loudspeakers informed the population of the mock camp filled with hundreds of role-players, that if they tried to escape or resist they would be killed.

    Now the public consciousness is so seared that an NBC reporter can just nonchalantly talk about an instant death penalty for anyone that doesn't have their biometric card in order or that strays off pre-determined paths on their way to authorized destinations. The Nazis did the same thing in the Polish ghettos. This is total seige, it is the highest expression of pure martial law. ID cards are now being issued across Iraq, the entire country and its 23 million inhabitants are simply being straight-jacketed so the Globalists can continue the oldest form of total war - seige - upon them.

    From thousands of credible reports, from reporters on the ground, we know that Iraq is now descending into a black hole. And I want all of the soft, decadent, bloated, demon-possessed, Neo-Con followers to enjoy themselves. Sit in your easy chairs, cheer the slaughter of over a hundred thousand innocent people. Feel like you're part of this global iron fist. Look at it from your coddled position and know - you don't have to fear the CIA controlled Al-CIAda, you had better fear your Globalist masters because they don't give a damn about you. I've got the government documents, I've got the video. The government's been training to do this to you for a long time. So cheer like it's a football game. Cheer the death of all those innocent children. And know that through your weakness and your lack of historical understanding, you have allowed America to lose its soul. Now prepare to reap what you sow. And as your Globalist owners are raping the hell out of you financially, spiritually, mentally, I know you're so weak-minded you'll thank them for it and blame some imaginary turban-headed bogeyman.

  • Has anyone here actually tried to walk into the PTO's new campus. These things are in full effect. You cannot walk into or out of any place worth going to on the new campus without having you little blue, red or yellow card with the chip in it. All entrances and exits are under survaillance to make sure you don't "accidentally" jump the gates. If you don't have the card... or forget it... you need to be vouched for and thoroughly inspected, and I mean they take all your gear apart. They know the second you

  • PIV - HIV (Score:3, Interesting)

    by dbIII ( 701233 ) on Saturday December 04, 2004 @11:55PM (#10999869)
    Better not use anything blood based for ID. The people operating the system will be minimum wage and not care about anything, let alone keeping things clean.

    Do we really need to go this far, or is this more empire building by security types who want to be more important? The Manhatten project was pretty secure without the benefit of biometric ID - but security was handled by people who were serious about it and not the sort of cretins that strip search grannies to meet a quota.

  • Bruce Schneier (Score:2, Insightful)

    by TheLibero ( 750207 )
    .. has been saying this for ages while talking about Identification and Security [schneier.com], "All the 9/11 terrorists had photo IDs. Some of the IDs were real. Some were fake. Some were real IDs in fake names, bought from a crooked DMV employee in Virginia for $1,000 each. Fake driver's licenses for all fifty states, good enough to fool anyone who isn't paying close attention, are available on the Internet."

    So I don't think the new anticipated cards will eliminate the threat. I'm just more concerned about the ways

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