Want to read Slashdot from your mobile device? Point it at m.slashdot.org and keep reading!

 


Forgot your password?
Close
typodupeerror
×
Privacy United States Your Rights Online

CAPPS 2 Back to the Drawing Board 191

Posted by michael from the holy-water-and-silver-weapons dept.
dagnabit writes "Just saw this over at MSNBC. Apparently Tom Ridge is revising CAPPS II due to the lawsuits and complaints from some Congresscritters As an alternative, the TSA is hoping frequent travellers will voluntarily give up their info..."
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

CAPPS 2 Back to the Drawing Board More

CAPPS 2 Back to the Drawing Board

Comments Filter:

  • build a database you mean... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by garcia ( 6573 ) * on Thursday July 15, 2004 @08:36AM (#9706583)
    From this [wired.com] article at Wired:

    "The Department of Homeland Security and the TSA feel very strongly we should not move forward on any program that in any way infringes on preserving our freedoms," Stone said. "That is first and foremost."

    Which really means, "we thought that people would just go along with us because we snuck every other piece of bullshit legislation through without notice but we were wrong."

    The system, as originally proposed, would require all passengers to provide extra information when booking a ticket -- information that airlines don't currently ask for, like addresses, phone numbers and dates of birth. The system would then check that information against databases of criminals and terrorists and assign each passenger a green, yellow or red score, according to perceived risk.
    Civil-liberties groups from the left and right have gained powerful allies on Capitol Hill by arguing the system is both too invasive and ineffective.

    Damn straight it's ineffective. The 9/11 terrorists were already in the country legally. What the hell good would this do? They were already flying planes. Would knowing their dates of birth and their addresses have helped? Nope.

    Privacy firebrand Bill Scannell, whose DontSpyOnUs [dontspyonus.com] website has targeted companies such as JetBlue and Delta Airlines for working with the TSA, welcomed news of changes to CAPPS II, but argued the TSA did not go far enough.

    "They should shut down this anti-democratic project and put it into a security system that works," Scannell said. "Instead of retooling, they should junk the entire system and improve physical security."

    No way! Improve physical security? You mean like stop worrying about having an algorithm figure stuff out and do it manually? That's work, no way! Plus, we wouldn't be able to create a large database of information on airline passengers that could be easily accessed by other agencies in the on-going fight to end freedom, errr I mean terrorism.

    • Re:build a database you mean... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by TopShelf ( 92521 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @08:53AM (#9706749) Homepage Journal
      Damn straight it's ineffective. The 9/11 terrorists were already in the country legally. What the hell good would this do? They were already flying planes. Would knowing their dates of birth and their addresses have helped? Nope.

      I may be off base here, but weren't a few of them wanted for various warrents [cnn.com]? Such a system could conceivably allow authorities to make an arrest before they get on the plane. It would seem at least that checking passenger ID's against police and FBI wanted lists would make sense...
      • This was a bench warrant. This wasn't a listing on the FBI's most wanted list. Give me a break.
        • That's why I said "police and FBI". Just in general, it would seem to make sense to check passenger ID's against those lists.
          • In other words, you want us to be like the old Soviet Union, and always be sure that we carry our internal passports. I would note that if "papers, please" becomes a regular part of travel in this country, then what this country special is dead.
            • The last sentence should read:

              I would note that if "papers, please" becomes a regular part of travel in this country, then what makes this country special is dead.

              I need to use the preview button more often. Oh, and more coffee, too.

              • Either way, I think you're taking the proposal to the ridiculous extreme. What I'm talking about is that if you're going to get on a commercial flight, that your ID (which you have to present already) be checked against law enforcement "wanted" lists such as warrants for arrest.

                You as a passenger wouldn't be asked for any further documentation than you already provide - it's just that law enforcement would have an opportunity to apprehend suspects that are trying to travel. In my mind, this wouldn't be u

                • Re:Correction (Score:3, Interesting)

                  by WNight ( 23683 )
                  The problem is that the airlines are big backers of the ID requirement. It doesn't do a lot to increase security because fake ID is fairly cheap and all terrorists would have to do would be pick suicide bombers without a record. What it does do is increase revenue by cutting out the ticket resale market.

                  It used to be that you could sell your ticket if you changed your plans, now you have to try to get a partial refund and the airline can sell a last-minute ticket to someone else at three times the cost. If

      • Re:build a database you mean... (Score:4, Informative)

        by Gr8Apes ( 679165 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @09:18AM (#9706976)
        First, being on the "watch list" didn't stop a couple of them from coming in the country.

        Second, Atta had the bench warrant, and was pulled over with a bench warrant, and not arrested.

        Third, good grief - everyone with a ticket won't be able to fly? They only write about a gazillion of those things a day.

        Finally, since when are airline ticket takers constables? What's next? Your McD's order taker will want your DOB etc so the local cops can come pick you up if you have an unpaid parking ticket?
        • First, being on the "watch list" didn't stop a couple of them from coming in the country.

          Such a system may well have prevented that, or flagged law enforcement to trail them once they arrived.

          Second, Atta had the bench warrant, and was pulled over with a bench warrant, and not arrested.

          Checking passenger ID's against warrant lists would allow them to make such an arrest. The reason he got away before is that the officer wasn't aware of the warrant.

          Third, good grief - everyone with a ticket won't b

          • Re:build a database you mean... (Score:4, Insightful)

            by demo9orgon ( 156675 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @11:19AM (#9708238) Homepage
            I'm feeling that whole "trust in the system" thing.

            It's ok. It's a fallicy that in this age is excusable--after all, nobody wants to be responsible for anything so we have insurance and judicial champions to assauge our sorrows and beat the snot out of the other guy, and since he lost he's responsible.

            As for the "system" thing...
            Unfortunately anyone who has ever caught the attention of a policeman
            (I'm a white-boy eating lunch in a park in a predominantly hispanic/black neighborhood or I'm riding a bicycle with a bandanna on my head or I'm wearing mostly black clothes and walking home across a strip-mall parking-lot) knows exactly how troublesome and useless a security person can be. People have misconceptions, preconceptions, and people with power (police, judges) are often arbitrary with how and why they employ it. B.F. Skinner had a great deal of important things to say about systems and how they influence behavior.

            Police and the system do not prevent crimes,they react to them.
            A system which catalogs people and manages movement control only controls the willing. It's possible for a single individual to carry out acts of horror and go unnoticed. A small group of justified individuals, even more so. And a organization of people infused with righteous determination and resources can undo hundreds of years of effort in a presidential term.

            People who use the system to control other people justify their actions and the existence of the system in what is often a self-feeding, self-fulfilling prophecy. When you're "marked", you're no longer free. Once you're no longer free, you justify the system. "Sure it's not perfect but it's necessary" sucks.

            Nothing can prevent crimes without removing (en-masse) the free will of people.

            Nothing can prevent people from doing something which is going to kill, and maim.

            Citizens should try to prevent people from being cataloged. I believe Nazi Germany in the early part of the twentieth century gave us a great example of how that power can be abused. By proxy we already have a "mark of the beast" through the SSN and a trail of records, womb to tomb, in order to feed the government.

            As a people who value freedom U.S. citizens are strangely as willing as dray animals to be used in a variety of confusing and profitable ways. Maybe there's something to be said about homeschooling and turning that around. Is a good citizen someone who isn't necessarily "patriotic" as defined by the handlers in power? Maybe being patriotic or a good citizen means taking a longer, non-partisan, more suspicious view of mind and movement control.
            • Dude, I think you forgot to take your medicine this morning.

              What I'm talking about here isn't an end-all be-all cure for all crime. It's a simple, common-sense idea - when you fly, you already present your ID to verify that you are the person to whom the ticket has been issued. Simply bounce that ID against a consolidated watch list and notify law enforcement when a match is made.

              If you're on the list, they're already after you. Get over it. All I'm saying is that we should take existing information a
              • In the best of all possible worlds, the right information will solve things.

                In this world, it just makes for good reading and the occasional TV show, and maybe a movie (or a Bollywood classic complete with handfuls of dye-powder cast into the air as Tom Ridge dances across a table laden with fruit and the skulls of terrorists while an out-of-tune guitar twangs to the syncopated beat of whips across the backs of the new jobless underclass, soon to wear TSA togs--let the vetting begin!).

                Alpha-rats are never
          • Hint - there is a system in place to keep such people out of the country, it's called "Customs and Immigration". One of the major issues in the 9/11 reports is that current and existing processes and procedures failed miserably because various folks (e.g., CIA/FBI/Local authorities) refuse to communicate.

            Only 1 had a warrant, out of 18. Think that would have stopped anything? But, that aside, how many warrants exist for parking tickets, which very well could have blown away? Are all such people to be arres
            • Only 1 had a warrant, out of 18. Think that would have stopped anything? ...
              Yes, it could. One is more than zero.

              that aside, how many warrants exist for parking tickets,...
              Are all such people to be arrested because they have a business trip to go on for...
              Finally, there's a thing about jurisdictions. ...
              I hear you. You'd rather have your government handcuffed then have it offer better protection to citizens (i.e. fulfill it's role).

              do you hold with the police state = good thing? ...
              Strawman a

    • Also from the article:

      "We are also introducing a new ticketing scheme designed to allow us to 'red flag' potential terrorists." Stone went on to detail the program, which, in addition to the 'economy', 'business' and 'first-class' tickets we have come to expect, would introduce a new 'terrorist' class ticket. "The terrorist class seating is closest to the cockpit, and is comprised of fold-down seats, since for most of the flight they'll be on their feet brandishing ak47s and boxcutters." said Stone. "Na

    • "They should shut down this anti-democratic project and put it into a security system that works," Scannell said. "Instead of retooling, they should junk the entire system and improve physical security."

      No way! Improve physical security? You mean like stop worrying about having an algorithm figure stuff out and do it manually? That's work, no way! Plus, we wouldn't be able to create a large database of information on airline passengers that could be easily accessed by other agencies in the on-going fight t

      • Re:build a database you mean... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Qzukk ( 229616 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @10:49AM (#9707935) Journal
        Profiling [cnn.com] Doesn't [splcenter.org]
        Work [bbc.co.uk].

        Any system that decides to ignore people who don't fit its narrow world view is a FAILURE. If nobody cared about the guy with the british passport, would the flight have been saved? Would the arrests in Texas have been made if all the agents were out tailing Pakistanis or Iraqis?

        As for CAPPS II, it had a whole host of problems rather than just collecting public data into a single place. Color coding was designed to be loose so that the person could move you up if you "looked" suspicious, or asked questions (in fact, IIRC, asking questions automatically escalated you). The database was not available for review or correction (the fact that our government insists on using bad data scares me more than anything else. But then again the whole Iraq mess proves that our government thrives on error). The list only goes on from there. That underpaid screener who just got laid off? They took your entire identity with them, and now have themselves a "raise". No auditing of usage of the data is almost as bad as the lack of review of the data.

      • Re:build a database you mean... (Score:4, Insightful)

        by AbbyNormal ( 216235 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @11:03AM (#9708091) Homepage
        inconvenience as few people as possible meaning ..

        So every Middle-Eastern LOOKING male should be profiled? Of what country? What about Americans?

        Letme guess you aren't of Middle-Eastern descent? Must be easy then, to come up with that profiling scheme.
      • "Personally, I think the simplest solution would be to extensively scrutinize any male of Middle Eastern descent, aged 12-62."

        Wrong. While you're profiling Middle Eastern males, the threat is already evolving. The Palestineans have sent many women suicide bombers to Israel. Richard Reid? He was British.
      • Aren't you forgetting about the unabomber? What about the guys that bombed the fed building in OK? Those guys were white americans. So is every male going to be searched? I doubt that falls under inconveniencing as few people as possible.

        I doubt harrassing a minority (mid-east descent?) is going to earn any civil rights points.

        The age 12 thing is too high. There was a kid that was conned into bringing a teddybear with a gun inside it through security. Women have been found with guns and knives too.

      • It's easy to bitch "aaagh, they've stolen my privacy!!", but YOU figure out a way that you can - identify or at least highlight potential terrorists ...

        I think that's the wrong goal. It should be about keeping weapons off planes, not terrorists. Personally, I don't care of Osama himself is sitting in coach, if we can be assured that there are no weapons or explosives available on the flight. That should be the goal of airport security. Finding terrorists and building a criminal case against them is th

        • It should be about keeping weapons off planes, not terrorists.

          Yeah, sure, keeping weapons off planes certainly helped. Guns haven't been allowed on airplanes for decades - sure glad that policy helped stop a couple of terrorists from taking over four planes on 9/11.

          Seriously, the system we have in place now is the same as the one that was in place on 9/10, just more of it and more intrusive. It didn't work on 9/11, and the thinking that more of it will work better is simply insane. The system we have

        • I think you've got it backwards.

          You want secure flights? Secure the cockpit door, and then let everybody with a concealed weapon permit carry on the flight.

          Law enforcement will NEVER be able to bring us security from ANYTHING. It's not even their job.

          And no amount of screening you do will ever keep all weapons off a flight. Somebody can always get through security.

          If you just encourage people to carry legally on the flight, you've just made it virtually impossible for the flight to be hijacked. Just
      • I'd love to hear you or Scannell's ideas for "a security system that works"

        That's easy. The highest probability of catching a terrorist, etc., is to perform random searches. Any system that puts individuals under greater scrutiny and they can become aware of it (such as them being searched more thoroughly or more often than an average passenger) is less likely to catch terrorists. (This is the characteristic demonstrated by the Carnival Booth algorithm [mit.edu]. The reason for this is because you can figure ou

        • Add onto the parent post that since the terrorists can find out their status just by taking a few flights, they can become aware if the FBI/CIA/whoever is "onto" them or not. This can lead them to go deeper into hiding, more secure communications, more careful hiding of their activities, etc.

          So a system designed to make flying supposedly more secure would end up making it less secure and tip off terrorists that the are being watched and should be more careful. Way to go!

  • Revising CAPPS 2 (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 15, 2004 @08:38AM (#9706594)
    They'll probably just pass a law to immunize from prosecution anyone who collects their dirty laundry for them.
    • No they are going to encourage people to 'volunteer' their information as part of the registered traveller program. After repeated long delays, hassle, inconvenience and strip searches of unregistered travellers I'm sure lots of people will be willing to register their details entirely of their own volition.
      • Yep, that's how they getcha. From the article:

        Ridge said a new program with a different name might be developed to replace CAPPS II. It could be replaced by a new "registered traveler" program if enough people volunteer to provide personal information, the report said.

        It's just like the grocery store card, well, you know, milk would be 30 cents cheaper ... and it's not that big a deal ... right? Once enough people volunteer, there is enough of a customer/user/whatever base that the corporation/organiz
        • The problem with setting up a voluntary information submitting system is that it immediately makes the false distinction for the TSA of "guilty" vs. "innocent".

          [attendant taking papers]"Date of birth and current address, please."
          [traveler]"Forget it. I already bought my ticket for this flight."
          [attendant, whispered to security guard]"Grab that one for questioning."
    • No need to legislate. They can just have the Justice Department issue immunity for those who do so on a per case basis, without the need to get Congress on board and likely without any press coverage. Hopefully at some point the courts are going to decide that any evidence gathered illegally is inadmissable, rather than only in cases where the police broke the law themselves.

  • Steak through the *head*? (Score:4, Funny)

    by SpooForBrains ( 771537 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @08:39AM (#9706614)
    Asked whether the program could be considered dead, Ridge jokingly gestured as if he were driving a stake through its head
    Is that a common way of killing things? Effective, yes, but wouldn't it make more sense to go for the heart? Or have I been watching too much Buffy?

  • Persistent data? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Benanov ( 583592 ) <brian,kemp&member,fsf,org> on Thursday July 15, 2004 @08:40AM (#9706622) Journal
    Airlines, some facing lawsuits, have been caught up in the controversy because they provided passenger information for use in testing the screening system.
    What about all the data they already have? What's going to happen to it? I doubt the U.S. government will throw that data out unless specifically ordered to, and even then they're going to throw more of a fit than a dozen 2-year-olds.

    I've travelled and been green lighted by CAPPS I.

    So CAPPS II is dead...but is my information still...
    • in the database
    • considered relevant?

    • The program will be reincarnated with new spin and a new name- much like what happened with TIA.
    • in the database

      The database is probably mirrored to another system - and eventually backed up for analysis purposes on a less volatile medium - stored away in some black vault under the NSA building in Ft Meade Md., after having been used to suppliment their existing data warehouses.

      Oh, you can be sure they have it somewhere.

  • Why would they cancel... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Dagny Taggert ( 785517 ) <hankrearden@NospAm.gmail.com> on Thursday July 15, 2004 @08:41AM (#9706634) Homepage
    ...this idea? After all, we KNOW that the gub'ment has never, ever arrested people based on faulty info. Trust the man, people; trust the MAN.

  • At least they are thinking (Score:4, Insightful)

    by The0retical ( 307064 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @08:41AM (#9706639)
    It is good to see that the US government is finally seeing that people do not want their right to privacy infringed upon. If they want to do something like the CAPPSII program it should be instituted voluntarily. Several airlines are already doing this and a rigorous background check to ensure the passengers are safe when they run them through an express check in. If anything US citizens should have their constitutional rights protected and if THEY should decide to give them up it was their decision for convenience of skipping the line.

  • Dumb? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Hard_Code ( 49548 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @08:42AM (#9706647)
    Aren't "frequent" flyers the ones we care the least about? I mean, if you are dead from hijacking a plane, you typically don't go on many more flights.

    "Roger, this passenger has taken 2000 flights in the last 10 years...you know...I have this suspicion he is UP TO SOMETHING!"

    • Re:Dumb? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by TopShelf ( 92521 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @08:59AM (#9706814) Homepage Journal
      I thought that in preparation for an attack, the hijackers take the flight they intend to use several times, in order to observe the crew and map out the operation. It's tough to distinguish that kind of flight activity from a business consultant who makes the same sort of regular trips.

      • Re:Dumb? (Score:2, Insightful)

        by kfg ( 145172 )
        Exactly. Which means the handful of potential terrorists dissappear in the noise while the tens of thousands of perfectly innocent travelers are all equally suspect of being terrorists.

        They all end up being treated the same, whether that be well or poorly and you could make 6 months at Guantanamo a prerequitie for getting on a puddle jumper and it wouldn't do anything to prevent terrorism, but would destroy any number of innocent lives.

        KFG

    • Re:Dumb? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by close_wait ( 697035 )
      Aren't "frequent" flyers the ones we care the least about? I mean, if you are dead from hijacking a plane, you typically don't go on many more flights.
      A well-funded terrorist will fly the route several times. A middle-eastern looking gentlemen who turns up in a suit doing the same journey he's been doing every 14 days for the last few months is likely to get waved through. ("Here for your meeting again, Mr Bin Laden? Have a good flight!")
    • Many terrorists live seemingly normal lives until the day they attack.

      So someone could take 2000 flights and only attack on the 2001st flight.

  • New name (Score:1, Offtopic)

    by KingEomer ( 795285 )
    How does Numm II sound?

  • Live data? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by sczimme ( 603413 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @08:42AM (#9706653)

    From the article:

    Airlines, some facing lawsuits, have been caught up in the controversy because they provided passenger information for use in testing the screening system.

    Has no one there heard of 'dummy data'? Live data - particularly sensitive data - is a no-no in the testing environment. In many cases this is simply because the developers have absolutely no need-to-know; in other instances it is possible for live data to escape the test environment via generated reports, bug reports (e.g. SSNs ending in 4 cause $PROBLEM), etc.
    • You can't generate cheap vast amount of "dummy data", which have the same quality and diversity of real data for the same price as the real data. Most airline I know of, inclusive the one i work with, on their test system simply copy the real data over. This is really cheap in comparison to generating data. Furthermore our program change are tested against real data, which is more sure than testing against fake dummy data that might be skewed when you generated them.

      This is also *WHY* we all have to sign

  • why frequent flyers? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by whovian ( 107062 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @08:43AM (#9706657)
    Last time i checked, suicide terra-ists don't plan to accumulate mileage.
  • I don't know If I like them collecting all that extra info. But....

    If they collected it for all non US persons I wouldn't mind. Although don't they already collect all this info for non US persons. If not, maybe they should.
    • You mean, the true citizens, like the guys who bombed Oklahoma's federal building with a truck bomb, would never hijack a plane? Many of those responsible for Madrid's bombing in March were Spain's citizens too...

      Please. This is a slippery slope -- foreigners already are photographed and forced to submit fingerprints on entering US. There is no security reason not to impose the same upon citizens -- only the political one -- the voting public's opposition.

    • Re:Non US Persons (Score:2, Insightful)

      by whitis ( 310873 )

      If they collected it for all non US persons I wouldn't mind. Although don't they already collect all this info for non US persons. If not, maybe they should.

      "When they came for the Jews, I did nothing, for I am not a Jew. When they came for the Socialists, I did nothing, for I am not a Socialist. When they came for the Labour Leaders, the Homosexuals, the Gypsies, I did nothing, for I am none of these, and when they came for me, I was alone, there was no one to stand up for me.

      -- Pastor Martin Niemo [wikipedia.org]

  • After an hour or two in line for physical security checks, I often start daydreaming and wondering if going through a background check would be worth it. To just breeze on through some special line. Ah, that would be the life. But they'd probably want to implant some chip...
    • Unfortunately, the Trusted Traveller System is not a get out of the security line free card. People having such cards will still have to go through the security line. They might get a special line at a limited number of airports (which will slow all other lines down, so the airlines won't like that). Some of the airports with the worst security line problems -- McCarran in Vegas comes to mind -- don't really have room for this special line, so they are unlikely to be implemented there. The "advantage" i

  • Conspiracy Theory (Score:3, Insightful)

    by webmosher ( 322834 ) <webmosher@nOSPAm.gmail.com> on Thursday July 15, 2004 @08:45AM (#9706685) Homepage
    This was "probably" scrapped simply because of the publicity it generated. There are "probably" easier ways to collect private information on the populate using pre-established methods that are less prone to public scrutiny (re: Carnivore).

  • European data exchange? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by angusr ( 718699 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @08:45AM (#9706687)
    I wonder if this will have any effect on the planned (and contraversial, although little heard about in the mainstream press) data exchange from EU airlines to the US? [theregister.co.uk]

    There does seem to be a fallacy going around in intelligence circles that all that is required for good security is as much data as can possibly be obtained - which of course isn't the case. What is required is good and timely analysis of relevant good quality data. Airlines can't even book seats correctly 100% of the time - what are the chances that their data is going to be good quality 100% of the time?

    • Re:European data exchange? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      I already moderated this story - but what the heck - I have to respond here. You're not kidding about this: Airlines can't even book seats correctly 100% of the time - what are the chances that their data is going to be good quality 100% of the time? The last time I flew (earlier this summer) the trip had 2 flights each way. By the time we got from ATL -> Houston, 2 of us had apparently "never flown to houston" so continental was reluctant to let us on the plane.. Anyway, they finally let us on afte

  • Remember? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Mishkin ( 729185 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @08:47AM (#9706703)
    remember one the first things that Bush said after 9/11?

    We will not allow these terrorists to change our way of life.


    heh. right.

    • Re:Remember? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by DaHat ( 247651 )
      Lets not forget the part about how the terrorists will win if we let their actions change how we live our lives... based on that... I've been saying they won long ago.
    • We will not allow these terrorists to change our way of life.

      Exactly. Why allow terrorists to change our way of life when Congress gets paid to do it? Get those lazy legislators off their asses - they're on the public payroll and they've got work to do!

  • voluntary system (Score:5, Interesting)

    by asreal ( 177335 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @08:47AM (#9706709)
    to be honest, a voluntary system with no rules on what information can be collected scares me more than the all-knowing capps ii program. it puts in effect the same sort of discrimination and information gathering without any of the restrictions that would be in place in a legislated system. say 8 passengers give their information and two don't-- who do you think will get the cavity search?

  • Voluntarily, yeah right. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by pigeon ( 909 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @08:51AM (#9706737) Homepage
    I don't believe in voluntarily. I see a future in which people who did not "voluntarily" gave up information are harrassed and automatically marked suspect.
    • I agree. I remember reading an article about a horrible murder in (I believe) Scotland. Local police there asked all males fitting a certain profile to "volunteer" dna samples. Those who didn't were automatically suspect. THAT scares me. I've been trying to find the article for the past 20 minutes but I can't (sorry).
  • As an alternative, the TSA is hoping frequent travellers will voluntarily give up their info..."

    Of course, if you don't volunteer the information, they'll be happy to conduct you to a private room for your strip search.

  • It's getting bad when even Reuters' journalists can't punctuate a sentence properly.

    The program, which has never been tested fully, was launched after the Sept. 11, 2001, hijacking attacks to refine electronic techniques for using personal information to identify and rate potential threats.

    This sentence means that the program hijacked attacks [...]. I think they meant:

    The program, which has never been tested fully, was launched after the Sept. 11, 2001 hijacking attacks to refine electronic technique

  • Not because of good intentions.. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by cOdEgUru ( 181536 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @08:57AM (#9706787) Homepage Journal
    And not because Tom Ridge just woke up today morning a changed man either.

    Its because they realized when senators and congressman and lobbyists on either side of the spectrum told them that snooping on influential people aint a good thing. Its not me or you they are worried about offending, its the people who they need, who can make or break them that they cater to.

    But they would violate the rights of every non-american who step off or on their planes with out a second thought, because every immigrant is a potential terrorist, isnt it? Every tanned face will be pulled aside, strip searched, his financial / public and private records scoured and reviewed by people who could very well abuse that power.

    Well..here's to Good Ol America.

    • Every

      tanned face will be pulled aside, strip searched, his financial / public and private records scoured and reviewed by people who could very well abuse that power.

      As a "slightly" out of shape man with nerdy glasses and a skin color that has the same pigmentation as a snowball, I think that myself and much of slashdot should have no problems with these "stereotypical terrorist" regulations.

      I've heard about the slow and invasive processes (e.g. drinking your own breast milk as in Fahrenheit 9/11) but I

  • First, i think that our invasive government has done enough to deprive us of any personal space. Tom Ridge, or anyone else doesn't need to know my pants size, yearly income, and how many pets i have if i'm getting on a plane. Security is one thing, but this is blatant excess, and abuse of authority. I'm glad we've at least got someone in congress with enough sense to say, "ok, so now when we get on planes, they'll anal probe us... Not so sure if i like that...". I just wish that good sense was around wh
  • centered around the fairly obvious criminal/terrorist lists supposedly broadcast by the government. If the passenger name were/are checked against these lists, the blatant evil-doers (what a fun word!), if that stupid, could be easily apprehended.
    What is needed is a far better infiltration of the terrorist networks. Then disseminate the characteristics to the security agencies. Not a quick fix, but nothing can be a silver bullet (absolute security infringes on liberty, absolute liberty infringes on security

  • As someone who was flagged in CAPPS I... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by velo_mike ( 666386 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @09:14AM (#9706952)
    ...how the hell do we fight this?

    I'm a native born, US citizen, of (obvious) northern European ancestory. I have 2 degrees, an honorable discharge and have filed a tax return every year since I was 15 (that's 19 years if you're counting). I held a secret clearance for several years and have been bonded several times. I've had a couple speeding tickets, but never even been accused of any other misdemeanor, let alone a felony. In other words, my life has been documented by our government in quite substantial detail.

    Despite this, every time I fly in the continental US I get searched. At the security screen where everybody else is passed through the x-ray and detector, my shoes are removed, I'm patted down, my hands and shoes are swabbed for explosive residue and my bags are rifled through. When I get to the gate and hand my ticket over, I get hauled off to the side, patted down again, and my bags re-searched. Every plane change, every pass through a gate or security station brings the same result. I have not boarded a flight in the US in the last 3 years without this happening. There is no appeal, there is no questioning why, there is only the choice to submit to this or not fly. My crime? Well, the only event I can come up with is I declared a firearm in my luggage after 9/11. A perfectly legal thing, I followed all the rules - demonstrated it was clear, locked the case, and placed it in the suitcase with the "steal me" tag.

    It's embarassing, being dragged off to stand in the "special line" by myself. Mainly, I wonder what lowlife is getting through while they interogate me? Security personel are a finite resource, people have to be moved through at a reasonable clip or else flights are missed. When they spend 15 minutes with me, that's 15 minutes they could be investigating someone with bad intentions. Mistakes on credit reports can be researched, documented and appealed, usually successfully. This is unappealable, hell, nobody will even admit I've been flagged, it's "random".

    • What does the fact that you have 2 degrees have to do with anything?
      • What does the fact that you have 2 degrees have to do with anything?

        Well let's see what government DB's I'd be entered in. They're both from state run universities. In both cases I had to apply for federal and state financial aid which involved cross checking with the various income tax entities. I was on the GI bill for the first, that's cross referenced to the DOD. Shall I go on?

        My point is that my life has been thoroughly and completly documented by the state and federal governments. I have entrie

    • ...how the hell do we fight this?

      May I suggest this solution [johnkerryi...anyway.com]?

      • May I suggest this solution?

        Remember people claiming there was no difference between Bush and Gore? Well, I don't see that this time, rather this is separate but equal evil. Why willingly trade giving up rights a,b, and c for giving up x, y, and z?

        Personally, I can't stomach voting for either of them and will probably throw my vote in for Badnarik [badnarik.org]. Yes, I know he has exactly a zero percent chance of winning. Yes, I know it's "throwing my vote away" and "helping Bush." Either way, no matter who wins,

        • > I can't stomach voting for either of them and will probably throw my vote in for Badnarik.

          Well, at least now we know why you're tagged for search :)

        • I think of it this way...

          Kerry isn't perfect (though you must be really paranoid if you think he can be as bad as Dubya), but even if he is just as bad as Bush it is still better to have him in the White House for the next 4 years than allowing the present idiot to consolidate his position any further. Government should have lots of checks and balances. At the moment everything is controlled by one party, so a lot of those checks have disapeared.

          Ideally Kerry wins and spends four years doing nothing but
          • Kerry isn't perfect (though you must be really paranoid if you think he can be as bad as Dubya)

            I don't know, I think with Bush we'll lose reproductive rights, with Kerry it'll be gun rights. Bush will bankrupt us with military spending, Kerry with healthcare and welfare. Bush will try to wreck the economy with corporate welfare, Kerry with protectionism. I see a difference, but yeah, I think one is as bad as the other.

            Ideally Kerry wins and spends four years doing nothing but fighting with the Republi

    • While it may have something to do with your firearm, it's probably most likely the case that your name matches the soundex [sfgate.com] code of the intended target. At which point, thou art screwed...

  • Its all a power grab (Score:5, Interesting)

    by CFD339 ( 795926 ) <andrewp AT thenorth DOT com> on Thursday July 15, 2004 @09:29AM (#9707094) Homepage Journal
    particularly the current flight security lines.

    Lets face facts:

    1. The 911 flights were brought down with box knives that did not go through security at all.

    2. A box knife is no longer an effective way to hijack a plane. This is simply because a hijacked plane is no longer about a 3 day trip to Cuba. Now its about becomming a lawn dart. If you tried to hijack a plane prior to 911 with a knife, maybe we'd sit back and enjoy some cigars when we landed. Today, this firefighter and dozens of other people on the plane are going to shove the box cutter up your ass sideways. I'm not a kung-fu master by any means, but I am a 200 pound man in pretty good shape. Its a narrow plane. If I come running down the isle at you, you are going to fall down. I may get cut with a box cutter. So be it.

    Now, making me wait 3 hours in line so you can take my nail clippers away isn't going to change anything at all. There are LOTS of ways we could still take stuff on planes (and if I can think of them, so can anyone else -- but I'd rather not broadcast them).

    Tom Ridge and his ilk like to keep people scared because they get more power and funding that way. One way to keep people scared is to make them stand like cattle in long lines to give up deadly nail clippers.

    Here's an idea, lets not vote for this administration this time either!

  • Forget the Privacy Issues .. (Score:4, Informative)

    by z0ink ( 572154 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @09:32AM (#9707129)
    CAPPS just plain doesn't work. I am a privacy advocate and have sent several letters to my congressmen and representatives apposing CAPPS, but there are graver issues involved here. Beyond the fact that the government will have extremely large neural networked databases built on people to be used for "national security" and to "keep people safe" it actually makes air travel less safe from attack!

    Check out the Carnival Booth [mit.edu] paper put out by MIT. It is long and technical, but well worth the read. I would much rather go back to the private security agencies instead of this bullshit TSA no-hs-education-required-we-dont-do-background-che cks-on-our-employess-for-your-safety scam. Repeat after me, TSA and CAPPS has helped weaken security.
  • Well I've seen some folks here state that this is a change and government is recognizing that they cannot infringe on people's privacy etc. I beg to differ - I think it has nothing to do with acknowleding people's privacy, instead, it has everything to do with skirting the law when real abuses come to light.

    Consider, a person whose information is quietly taken and then misused (e.g., credit card fraud). Person discovers and sues airline. Airline claims no liability due to Government regulation/law. Person
    • Oh, for the want of a mod point. I hope that someone else sees this and marks you up accordingly.

      One of the big problems that I've always had with CAPPS marks I & II is not "invasion of privacy." My privacy gets invaded to some extent every time the phone rings. I invite a potential invasion of privacy with every business card I hand out. But both of those are reasonably controlled instances. It's simply impossible to live in a vacuum, no matter how hard you try. However, you, as an individual, do and s

  • New improved (Score:3, Funny)

    by t_allardyce ( 48447 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @10:08AM (#9707494) Journal
    Its a great idea, keep a database of terrorists - kinda like the pedophile lists, so once they've done one offence and got on the list you can make sure they dont get on a plane again. I also like the name check system that checks to see if a terrorist has made a fake ID with an anagram of their name or their same date of birth! Biometrics is going to be the key here, you've got to iris scan everyone to make sure they are who they said they were at the passport office or who they told that guy they got the fake ID from.

    One idea though - why not add one of those little "Are you a terrorist?" tick-boxes when you buy tickets? I think if they also asked you the same question at the gate they could check to see if you had changed your choice - which would mean you were probably not telling the truth.

    Some great ideas here. Oh BTW If they do start doing all that bank account checking stuff and they discover lots of money going between Saudi-Arabia and certain people in the US, they might want to make an exception if the person in question is the owner of any oil companies or their name begins with "prince" because obviously they're not terrorists! that would be abit embaressing, especially if Bush got pulled over trying to get on Air Force 1!

  • one of the ways CAPPS was supposed to work... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by ladyeyes ( 667481 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @10:48AM (#9707923)
    I was doing research in a Senate office when this was a hot topic last summer. One of the things that was being looked at was having CAPPS check into the credit records of people to see things like: Do they have a long credit history in this country? Do they have a mortgage, car loan, student loans? These sorts of questions were supposed to help screen for people who had only been in the country for a very limited time and living in a more "limited" fashion.

    There were, as you can imagine, an insane number of troubles and issues with this approach. And our office was one of the ones that screamed bloody murder over these issues.

  • Couple that with neofascist political agendas and you have the Perfect Government Project.

    Wait let me guess, the problem with the system is that it didn't spit back a list of names the administration already wanted it to spit back. Guess they'll have to fire the new Intelligence Chief cuz as we all know, the WH never lies.

  • Security, El Al style (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Will Shaw ( 10776 )
    El Al, the Israeli airline, is world-reknowned for its security measures.

    Here's an informative article [businessweek.com] from Business Week about a year ago.

    The point is that effective and efficient security can be achieved, and it doesn't require this sort of extreme federal legislation. I think that if US carriers and airports look to the example set by El Al, air travel would be much safer.
  • jumps the fence on a motorcycle.

    I always wondered what would have happened if he'd made that second jump into Switzerland and freedom. . .

    Anyway, don't worry about Tom Ridge. Despite delays, he'll have the American infernal security machine up and running like a big pig-processing plant before WWIII hits American shores. Unless you all do something about it first. . .

    Otherwise, it's "Heil Bush!" (Or Kerry, or whothefuckever happens to be residing after the big November event.)

    I think I'm going to spl
  • You can collect terabytes of low grade information and look for little diamonds of high grade intelligence.

    Guess what?

    You will find them by the score.

    You are attempting to identify an extremely rare occurence - maybe 1 person in a billion boards a plane with the intent to highjack it - the false positives will always dominate the results. The cops will be chasing shadows, detaining and searching the wrong people.

    Spend the money on real security, such as security guard training (and better pay.)

Slashdot Top Deals

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." -- Albert Einstein

Close