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Groklaw's 'Grokline' To Document *nix History 88
trick-knee writes "Grokline hopes to fill in the ownership aspect of the history of UNIX. According to the announcement on Groklaw.net, Pamela Jones intends to flesh out Eric Levenez's UNIX timeline with ownership information. The idea is that this is an application of the open source model in the area of law: if enough eyes see this, someone might be able to anticipate a legal attack and the community may be able to forestall it somehow. We don't really want another SCO foodfight, I don't think."
Maybe (Score:1, Funny)
Re:Dupe. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Dupe. (Score:1)
Re:Dupe. (Score:4, Informative)
This story is to point out that Grokline has now gone live.
If you had actually clicked the link instead of trying to search through Slashdot's painful search feature, you would have seen the project launched until May 23rd, 2004 (yesterday).
A good thing. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:A good thing. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:A good thing. (Score:3, Funny)
I don't think we'd be around to worry about it, as hell would have already frozen over.
Nah (Score:3, Insightful)
Anyway it's at least marginally better if the linux community uncovers evidence of infringement and deals with it themselves than if SCO or some other unfriendly third party uncovers evidence of infringement and run
Re:A good thing. (Score:1)
can they add the Vendor(rhat, etc) kernels? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:can they add the Vendor(rhat, etc) kernels? (Score:2, Informative)
Newsgroups: comp.os.minix
Subject: What would you like to see most in minix?
Summary: small poll for my new operating system
Keywords: 386, preferences
Message-ID:
Date: 25 Aug 91 20:57:08 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 20
Hello everybody out there using minix -
I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and
professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones. This has been brewing
since april, and is starting to get ready. I'd li
Unix Ownership in general... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Unix Ownership in general... (Score:5, Insightful)
However, as we all know, SCO has managed to spread FUD and raise questions among people. Most people, including journalists are just too lazy to go check facts, like reading one of the books on Unix history.
Being able to point out 'Here, look at this website. It has detailed info on who did what and when.' makes it easier to dispell the FUD. The more detail we have, the harder it is to 'spin'.
The original Levenez diagram is a good example of this. SCO actually used this to show how Linux 'derived' from Unix. Not that there's anything wrong with the chart, but without the details, most people don't realize which lines are actually shared code, and which are just inspiration; i.e. what parts actually have any legal relevance.
Re:Unix Ownership in general... (Score:1, Insightful)
Problem is, your second paragraph is undone by your first - lazy people won't bother reading the details on a Gr
Re:Unix Ownership in general... (Score:1)
I disagree, actually. Books are thick. You have to go to a bookstore, or library. Information can be hard to find in a book if it doesn't have a good index. Et cetera.
An easily-navigated web page does not have these drawbacks, and is instantly available to everyone.
Natur
Don't Fight the Last War (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Don't Fight the Last War (Score:2)
Second, we still have no public record of the resolution of AT&T vs UCB, only one-sided anecdotes. In any case, SCO vs. IBM resembles it not at all (as much as SCO tries to paint it so), and none of the affirmative defenses UCB used (and w
Re:Unix Ownership in general... (Score:1, Redundant)
http://lawandhelp.com/q298-2.htm [lawandhelp.com]
They got it all wrong (Score:5, Funny)
Re:They got it all wrong (Score:2, Funny)
codifying history (Score:5, Interesting)
Not to mention that some GPL advocates I know are going to go ballistic at the idea of the UNIX community calmly and objectively discussing who owns what. I'm not sure that this is going to really help.
Re:codifying history (Score:1)
Good point! The internet is hurting open source! lkml, the debian mailing lists, usenet... I always say, we'd be much better off if those arguments were conducted privately!
Ownership is central to open source. (Score:2, Insightful)
If you read the GPL, the GPL is actually based entirely on copyright law... it works within the existing system, not against it.
Do you think that will work? (Score:5, Interesting)
You can't prevent some crazy FUD company like SCO suing using baseless claims with such a timeline.
Basically, I am not sure how the existance of this timeline does anything to prevent SCO II: The Wrath of McBride, or SCO III: The Search for a Clue...
Re:Do you think that will work? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Do you think that will work? (Score:2)
Re:Do you think that will work? (Score:1)
Food fight? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Maybe (Score:1, Funny)
Avoid, or cause... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Avoid, or cause... (Score:1)
It seems to have worked with software, so let's give it a try with IP.
Don't do it..... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Don't do it..... (Score:4, Insightful)
And just suppose there were problems, would you not want to know about them now? Say, for example, we find that we need to get rid of some piece of code. surely better that we find out now, and do it ourselves?
I don't believe that's the case however. Speaking of cases, where's my next beer?
Re:Don't do it..... (Score:2, Insightful)
Look, this is well-intensioned but misguided, in my view. It will play directly into the hands of the corporate "intellectual property" bean-counters.
It will quickly degenerate into a series of arguments along the lines of "who invented the for-loop". I wouldn't be surprised to see flame-wars errupt which won't end until someone finally compares the opposition to Nazis.
It would probably be more productive in the long run to dedicate a new web site to the debunking of all the "intellectual p
And this will be legally binding how? (Score:1)
It means documenting the origins (Score:2)
The groklaw folk should look at... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:The groklaw folk should look at... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:The groklaw folk should look at... (Score:2)
The Problem (Score:5, Insightful)
Hopefully, Grokline will help sort this out for at least the open source world and the people like Ken Brown at AdTI will have to find a different dumpster to go diving in to find dirt on FOSS and FOSS contributors. Alternatively, he could seek employment at the National Enquirer since his idea of research seems to be more at home in a supermarket tabloid.
Re:The Problem (Score:4, Insightful)
1983 -- BSD UNIX 3
1984-2003 -- AT&T, Novell, and Sun spend 15 years adding tens of millions of lines of proprietary sourcecode
2004 -- Solaris 9 !
If you back to when the code was open enough to track, you are really talking about ancient, obsolete crap that's not relevant anymore. Levenez's chart is interesting as an overview, but trying to nail down exactly which code went where seems to be overkill.
Instead of the History of Unix on a byte level, it would be a lot more interesting to have a place where oldtimers could reminisce and submit their stories. But that would be a lot like alt.folklore.computer.
Re:The Problem (Score:1, Insightful)
Another problem i
Re:The Problem (Score:2)
Pamela Jones's whole idea is and has been to apply open-source methodology to the law. No matter how big the law firm or how rich the client, they can't dig up everything related to a subject or case. Groklaw/line is organized around the idea that the worldwide tech community can dig up more.
Furthermore, the idea is to dig it up and present it in a way that's legally useful to any lawyers who need it.
As in, "This flyer handed out at an obscure trade sho
History of unix, part I (Score:2)
"The inquistion, SCO. The inquistion, here we go. We have a mission to convert the big Blue (blue, blue blue blue blue)
Busy busy busy (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Busy busy busy (Score:5, Informative)
2) This is practically her job now, that's why she does so much; she works for OSRM now, and they pay her to do this + Groklaw now.
3) She does sleep, but she's been known to keep odd hours on occasion.
Speaking of which, here's their how to help page [grokline.net], in case anyone reading this wants to help them out.
[Why yes, I do read Groklaw regularly...
Re:Busy busy busy (Score:1, Interesting)
PJ
Re:Busy busy busy (Score:2)
I think I just got confused by your last explanation of it, because you did say something about OSRM being generous to give you enough time to still do Groklaw.
Re:Busy busy busy (Score:2)
Re:Busy busy busy (Score:2)
Though I know that MathFox (admin of groklaw.net, runs the site while PJ posts everything) is in on the Grokline project (he did all the software, according to the grokline page). So I guess that there are other people involved, but PJ == Pamela Jones, who is just one person
So these *are* collaborative efforts here, but it's all PJ posti
History of UNIX (Score:2, Funny)
Re:History of UNIX (Score:1)
Thank you for showing us your prodigious copy and paste skills! Please pick up your ID-TEN-T certificate at the door!
Re:History of UNIX (Score:4, Funny)
And that was just the 1st generation. Take a look at some of the offsping? You have the lucky ones like OsX which had Unix (the lsd junky from Berkeley) as a father and its mother was hatched and grew up at CMU. While thats messed up, its nothing compared to the offspring with the worst identity crisis which now wants to be known as Solaris but when pressed on the issue takes its fathers name "sunos". It even gets confused if its sunos jr or sunos XI. Its cousin (like anyone could figure out that DNA mess) was spliced together at an evil lab at IBM where they took several stillborn unix offspring with a bit of stem cells from something that might have been a real unix and mixed it all together. The result of that isn't going to win any cutest baby awards.
Where does Linux fit into this nice neat family tree? It doesn't. It turns out it was born over the road from the unix family castle and always looked up to them. You could hear them say "when I grow up, I want to be just like them!" Like too many people who grow up on the wrong side of the tracks, linux went off and had several children with several mothers. There was the lady who worked on the corrner who always wore a red hat, you had some German backpacker who seemed to get knocked up and carry her baby suse to full term. Many of the 1st gen breed like rabbits too. Mandrake seemed to be left at an orphanage but the lady in red and sometimes looks like it may head back there or the poor house.
Recently Linux has some problems that there is a growing battle over the babys name. While both parties claim GNU had nothing to do with the birth, we all know that it takes two to make a baby and Linux is covered hints that GNU was arround at the time of conception. So will Linux ever take on another sirname or is it just that hyphanted last names just aren't cool where it hangs out?
UNIX time line already exists? (Score:3, Insightful)
http://www.levenez.com/unix/
http://www.unix.org/what_is_unix/history_timeline
Now just follow the the copyrights and patents.
Very cool (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.levenez.com/NeXTSTEP/ [levenez.com]
What's to document? (Score:5, Funny)
Stranger in a Strange Land (Score:2)
Just curious. Didn't see an explanation for the name.
Head off lawsuits, or create them? (Score:2, Interesting)
Open Source Laws. (Score:1)
Hmmm. . . Sounds alot like this. [opennation.org]
We can't change what we don't own.
I wonder if (Score:1)
Biggest Problem with Grokline (Score:5, Insightful)
But UNIX has never been just a single "thing". Important to the development of UNIX are the development of the utilities - grep, vi, emacs, awk, cc, csh, etc.
I don't see any way to fit that information into the timeline as it is currently organized.
Re:Biggest Problem with Grokline (Score:1, Interesting)
PJ
Timeline of GNU/Linux and Unix (Score:3, Informative)