China Plans Surveillance System for Internet Cafes 298
nasty writes "According to Interfax China, China will install a special surveillance system in order to prevent 'unhealthy information and websites'. All internet cafes in China will have installed the new system by the end of 2004. This according to China's Ministry of Culture (MOC). The system requires the customers personal information, such as name, age, and their national citizen identification number, before they are allowed to log onto the Internet." Reader Dr.Hair submits another blurb about the system.
Eventual failure (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Eventual failure (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Eventual failure (Score:2, Informative)
China blocking Google [bbc.co.uk] [september 2002]
Re:Eventual failure (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Eventual failure (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Eventual failure (Score:2, Insightful)
I set up an encrypted proxy for my father who is working in U.A.E., so he could get around their national firewall. After he used it once, they found it and banned my IP in less than a day.
The UAE is a small, rich country. China is a massive, poor country. Do you think this might be relevant?
Always options (Score:4, Insightful)
Others who may not have that choice always have these choices in addition to the previous one I mentioned:
(What? Do you want unrestricted web access or not?)
Re:Eventual failure (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Eventual failure (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Eventual failure (Score:3)
Re:Eventual failure (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Eventual failure (Score:5, Insightful)
I am somewhat amazed to see how little /. readers can full comprehend the world outside of first world, mostly-free countries
This should be a wake-up call to the "chilling effect" of government intervention. It is not necessary to have a 100% effective technological solution against the dissemination of "unhealthy" information.
As long as they can keep on top of the "troublemakers" when they are few and far between, and make them "disappear", the deterrent effect will be strong enough to keep others from even trying to evade their control.
The Chinese government is not the RIAA. They don't mail you a friendly summons to a lawsuit. They drag you out in the dead of night for "re-education" or a date with a firing squad.
Re:Eventual failure (Score:3, Insightful)
This is a glib and unsupported assertion and purely conventional thinking. I think an informed and reasonable person must admit that the current state of the network enables the suppression of dissent far more effectively than ever before. A political broadsheet, passed hand-to-hand is effectively untraceable. What's on the other end of your wire, friend? While an informed few may be better connected, the vast majority will be more easily outed.
And let's remember that it is thanks to American firms li
Re:Eventual failure (Score:2)
Re:Carivore for China (Score:2)
So why should China be any different, they want censorship and we have no right to tell them its wrong when we are doing the same thing. We log and tap every phone due to the patriot act.
Nice troll. Sources please? Sure the phone company (key difference: company not government) logs all of your phone calls for billing purposes. They log the number it originated from where it went and how long it lasted. And that is it.
Do you really think there is a massive database somewhere that contains a recording
Re:Carivore for China (Score:2)
In other news... (Score:4, Funny)
One good use. (Score:5, Funny)
Human Rights / Trade Agreements (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps an anonymous proxy could be set up and funded by the US, as it has in Iran [theregister.co.uk].
Re:Human Rights / Trade Agreements (Score:5, Interesting)
Because business dictates foreign policy.
Consider that China has far worse human rights violations than Cuba yet Cuba suffers through US embargos while diplomats fly to China to kiss ass for trade favours.
Re:Human Rights / Trade Agreements (Score:5, Informative)
1: Cuba is the only Communist state in the western hemisphere that America failed to overthrow.
2: There is a huge population of former Cubans in Florida that keep riding the governments ass about ending Castro's reign. Not that most of these people would ever move back to Cuba to save their lives.
Re:Human Rights / Trade Agreements (Score:2)
It goes to explain Cuba too - imagine the catastrophe that would befall the Hawaiian tourist industry the day Cuba opens up to Americans, a quickie 45-minute flight from Miami. Without billions at stake over in Aloha-land, I can guarantee you some of those people have flown in to Washington to "take care" of a few things.
Re:Human Rights / Trade Agreements (Score:2)
Re:Human Rights / Trade Agreements (Score:2, Flamebait)
Re:Human Rights / Trade Agreements (Score:2)
As things are right now, try to imagine the effect of revoking MFN status for China. They'd cut us off at the knees economically. We've abandoned most of the manufacturing capability that we depend on them for.
I'm not very happy about having to buy so much stuff that originated in China, but nowdays, one would be hard pressed to find a reasonably priced consumer item that isn't related in some way to China.
Re:Human Rights / Trade Agreements (Score:4, Insightful)
It is clear through his actions, and the actions of his cabinant, and party - that they are trying to push christianity on everyone in this country. Furthermore the attitude of "You're a traitor if you don't agree with Bush" that Schrubya is pushing is evidence of the fact that they don't respect Freedom of Speech.
These are but two of the hundreds of violations the bush administration has commited/would like to commit.
Re:Human Rights / Trade Agreements (Score:5, Interesting)
Now that I am done with the factual part of my post, I'll do a little rant: I really don't think building up such a massive debt to China is good for the US in the long run. After they have bought enough bonds they can always threaten the US with a massive selloff which would push interest rates through the roof, severly hurting the US(and global) economy. Doesn't anyone else thing this is a bad idea?!
Re:Human Rights / Trade Agreements (Score:2)
Bravo.
Re:Human Rights / Trade Agreements (Score:2, Interesting)
As for the will to deregulate trade with China despite the violation human rights : the Chinese market means access to over a billion consumers, and to access that market, capitalistic and "free" countries are willing to cl
Re:Human Rights / Trade Agreements (Score:2)
This censorship brought to you by Cisco (Score:2)
Re:Human Rights / Trade Agreements (Score:2)
I'm sure China's actions burn up the Feds...with jealousy.
Unhealthy Information... (Score:2, Funny)
Censorship will drive... (Score:5, Interesting)
It seems that a lot of people around the globe have worked hard to design proxies that get around existing systems which governments use to restrict their citizens' access to information on the internet.
IMHO, this new piece of software will just lead to a new breed of web proxy, and until China either cuts off net use entirely or has a massive change in government policy, it's going to be a continuation of the government vs. infolibertarian game of "build the better mousetrap". Just now, instead of bypassing and improving filters, it'll be about tracking and masking data...
Re:Censorship will drive... (Score:2)
Re:Censorship will drive... (Score:4, Interesting)
US version (Score:3, Insightful)
What's anonymous in the US? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:What's anonymous in the US? (Score:2)
Here's my scorecard...
The use of this information by the chinese goverment to persecute genuine freedoms... bad.
Anonymous access to child porn, terrorism planning, and theft of my credit card numbers... also bad.
no surprise.. (Score:4, Interesting)
I am surprised that they haven't done that before...
what I also don't understand is why 'democratic' world has such a great trade relations with totalitarian China?...
then again two party system is only one step to totalitarism
somewhat irrelevant but interesting quote from today NYTimes editorial: "we are all capable of believing things which we know to be untrue, and then, when we are finally proved wrong, impudently twisting the facts so as to show that we were right. Intellectually, it is possible to carry on this process for an indefinite time: the only check on it is that sooner or later a false belief bumps up against solid reality, usually on a battlefield." That's from George Orwell's 1946 essay "In Front of Your Nose."
Re:no surprise.. (Score:2)
The old geezers had to figure out how to power a computer first, then they were shocked by all the nekkidness and stripping geishas. aaaahNO!
Re:no surprise.. (Score:2)
Well, look at all the good isolation did to Iraq and take a wild guess..
Trade means that they also get information and impressions from the outside whether they like it or not, which in turn leads to enlightenment. And an informed and enlightened population will most likely not put up with tyranny for too long, but still be able hopefully to revolutionize to democracy in a peaceful manner.
I
Re:no surprise.. (Score:2)
Just look at all the relatively "new" _real_ democracies in south-east asia and what few there are in Africa (like Botswana), they have all embraced free-trade, which in turn has brought with it greater democracy, freedom and wealth, not to some, but to all inhabitants, even the poor.
There really has been no "revolution", it has just been the inevitable progress of trade and openes
Re:no surprise.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:no surprise.. (Score:2)
what I also don't understand is why 'democratic' world has such a great trade relations with totalitarian China?...
This sentiment is frequently expressed whenever China is mentioned, especially here on Slashdot (as you can see from other peoples' posts already.) I think it is rooted in either an ignorance of or an unwillingness to believe that our Great Democratic Country(tm) would *gasp* trade with a country like China because of money outweighing our precious values.
When it comes right down to it, d
Re:no surprise.. (Score:2)
What makes this interesting is that China is taking small steps away from totalitarianism as it begins to allow (limited) free markets and some small steps towards freedom of religion and political thought. Sure it has a long way to go, but it isn't anymore the totalitarian state it was 20 or even 10 years ago. That's why these attempts to allow some freedom (at least there are internet cafes) while also attempting to maintain political control is so fas
What kind of system? (Score:4, Interesting)
Don't get me wrong, the idea scares the heck out of me, I'm just curious exactly how they plan on implementing the system.
~~Guildencranz
One simple question: (Score:4, Insightful)
How long until we get telescreens?
Impersonation (Score:5, Insightful)
Name, age, and national ID number?! Unless they have some kind of picture ID with a magnetic strip on the back which has to be inserted into a computer, after the photo has been checked by an official, how are they going to keep people who have somehow gotten hold of someone else's name, age, and ID number, from using that information when they log on?
Pity the poor bastard who has to explain to the chinese authorities that it wasn't he who was reading Slashdot at the local cafe, but an impostor.
Re:Impersonation (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Impersonation (Score:3, Informative)
Biometric identification
The new uk national id card will have biometric id built in.
The question is how long it will take before all ISP's will be obliged to collect internet usage data linked to the biometric id of the user.
Great for catching terroists
Great for controlling political activists as China proves
Total and absolute ending of freedom of thought.
Remember information is power, you can throw your guns, votes and education into the trash. The end of an anarchic gold
I'm in 1984! (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:I'm in 1984! (Score:2, Informative)
It's easier to make the public swallow something bad when it hides behind a happy name.
Re:I'm in 1984! (Score:4, Funny)
I don't know about you, but I'm damn grateful that I live here, and not in China.
For the amount of tax dollars I'm paying, I want the the full working version, not the crappy beta!
Re:I'm in 1984! (Score:2)
In America, our government outsources its totalitarianism so that it doesn't appear to be too evil.
Hmmm (Score:2, Funny)
Everything can be cracked (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm sure that some clever individuals will find a way to get around this Orwellian nonsense in no time.
Also, with the millions and millions of people using the Internet in China, that's a lot of data being generated on what people are doing. How would they parse data of this magnitude? Look for the names of "naughty" websites? Doesn't the Great Firewall already block those?
Maybe they are not really monitoring people very much, but just trying to inspire fear and obedience with the "Big Brother is watching" bit.
Information tends to be easily spread, and tends to leak from even the most secure of places. This might slow down the spread of undesirable information, but won't stop it.
Re:Everything can be cracked (Score:2, Insightful)
Then I thought of all the censorship software that China has employed in the past and the net nanny software installed in American libraries. People have always found a way around it.
Bit of a difference: bypassing NetNanny at a US library may get you tossed out of the building. In China you may well be imprisoned for your subversive behaviour.
Already monitored (Score:3, Interesting)
Anyway, he kept in touch with me and other people through the use of internet cafes, so we talked fairly often. Then a few days went by where he wasn't logging on. It turns out government monitors had flagged his usage because he had been visitng a lot of American web sites. He told me he woke up one moring with AK-47's pointed at his face and was taken to a local precinct.
A rep from the agency he was working for had explained the sitation to the police, but from there on he was forced to fill out paperwork outlining his planned usage activities on the terminals.
And for a funny tidbit, he didn't realize the massage parlors in the city he worked were of the "full release" variety.
Re:Already monitored (Score:2)
Actually, I'm surprised neo-conservatives haven't latched on to this idea: if you really want to keep a population from caring about its freedoms, make it easier for them to have sex. Hell, we probably wouldn't have a democrat left in office if the republicans made Free Love one of their campaign platforms in the 60s.
Re:Already monitored (Score:2)
Re:Already monitored (Score:5, Interesting)
The "story" of your friend is totally made up. Any body who are acutally faimilar with the structure of police in China will easily see through your bullshit.
Police force is divided into several tiers. Traffic cops, patrol cops, criminal cops, armed police. Traffic cops and patrol cops are not armed. Criminal cops have only pistols. Armed police have Type-81 rifle, which is not AK47.
To use Armed Police force for arrest, the city/county police department must file request to the Military Region; which composes of several provinces. The Armed Police is under control of Central Military Committee, NOT under the local civilian government.
When you exaggerate, you missed the little details. I assume that if the policemen are brutal, they would NOT have got into your friend's room without waking him up in the first place when banging on the door?
I have no problem with dictatorship bashing. But when you make up stories to prove your point, than how different are you from the propaganda department of China?
China bashing? (Score:2)
Who's bashing China? I'm bashing the Party. I don't get my undies in a wad when people bad-mouth the Bush Administration, and not just because I agree with them.
Internet is a privliage privilege, not a right (Score:5, Interesting)
While I'm not for censorship, is it really that shocking that a country with over 2 billion people is taking it upon it selfs to censor incomming information in the same way other countries have done with physical media for years?
But free speech *is* a right...in the US (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm surprised this one hasn't got modded Troll yet. Oh well, I'll bite...
No, it's not shocking at all. Unfortunately, this is what we can fully expect from an oppressive, non-democratic government. It also tells us Westerners the kinds of things to watch out for in our own governments -- there but for the grace of God, and all. It seems outrageous to us now, but liberty has to be continually guarded and fought for, again and again, because we can be assured of the continued existance of dictators and wannabe dictators on both ends of the political spectrum. Someday in the near future, that news article could be about us.
The UK is more restrictive in many ways than the US (no right to bear arms, and a scant two centuries ago insulting the king could cost you your head, if I remember correctly). However, it had a strong concept of freedom and independence which was inherited by the first American colonists, who "fixed" many of the abuses of the English system that existed at the time, in the Constitution. Hence the Bill of Rights, separation of Church and State, division of power among three major bodies...lack of a king...etc.
Travelling Employees (Score:5, Interesting)
Our super-prima-donna-annoying-user employee put in about thrity help desk requests due to not being able to email, surf the web, or VPN from her hotel room in China. We had to explain to her about the Communist's "Great Firewall of China" and how they block/inspect/proxy damn near everything.
So believe it or not this story is more of a suprise that this type of "surveillance" is NOT already in place.
Re:Travelling Employees (Score:4, Informative)
I've heard this a lot, but personally when I've been in China I've found only one web site which I couldn't get to, BBC News [bbc.co.uk]. I found I could get to many other sites which I half expected not to be able to get to, including the rest of the BBCs [bbc.co.uk] site, CNN [cnn.com], NYTimes [nytimes.com], and many others. Why they choose to block some sites, whilst leaving many others which you might reasonably expect to be blocked for similar reasons is beyond me.
Even these blocks didn't stop me, I just tunneled anything I wanted to access over SSH (which I was using heavily to access our servers anyway).
Not a very effective great firewall as far as I could see.
Knoppix (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Knoppix (Score:2)
You think these machines will even have exposed drives of ANY kind?
Re:Knoppix (Score:2)
Re:Knoppix (Score:3, Insightful)
If only. (Score:5, Insightful)
If only, we could have that here. Hold on. I have to pay for internet access. They usually want my name and some other identifying infomation such as address. I don't tend to use internet cafes though. I'm speaking of home internet. Why shouldn't they be required to write their name, age, and drivers license number here? What if the FBI came knocking on the door with printouts and said we know the guy that was here 2 nights ago at this IP and computer name is planning a bombing we need all the info. you have on him, now! It would be useful if you could provide a Name and Address.
I don't think that it should be required myself. I do believe that it will be required in libraries to "prevent minors" from viewing "adult content."
If Ashcroft thinks along those lines, a regulation here or there in licensing could bring it about with out any troublesome laws.
Remember, you only have to think around those pesky laws if you don't argee with them.
Re:If only. (Score:2)
That's the very thing we should be wary of. It would be best if you COULDN'T supply a name and address. It would be best if the FBI didn't come by to harass you to begin with. The more our civil liberties are infringed and as our ability to private
Re:If only. (Score:2)
That's the very thing we should be wary of. It would be best if you COULDN'T supply a name and address. It would be best if the FBI didn't come by to harass you to begin with.
So if the FBI was actually doing its job and found out about a terroris
Obligatory (Score:2, Funny)
Their pols snoop on them, our pols snoop on us (Score:5, Interesting)
But the difference is decreasing. Politicians everywhere want power over ordinary people. That's why they became politicians.
This story is no big deal. It's up to the Chinese to fight for their own freedom. We've proved in the last few years that we can't even preserve our own freedoms. We should fight for those before pointing the finger at China.
Why monitor when you can Black Hole? (Score:2)
Or rather than monitor their citizens' Net activity, the Chinese government could take a cue from the Sinclair Broadcast Group and simply shut off the flow of all that "unhealthy" information [cnn.com].
S.E.P (Score:5, Interesting)
I've been to China many times, Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen and HongKong (before and after it was given back)
I must say that for the most part they do things just like we do.
I mean, you can get a bottle of Corona at the bars in Beijing (except they put lemon it in rather that lime) you get can a big mac, kentucky fried chicking and starbucks.
One poster mentioned that people are conditioned to believe what they are told, I think this is a valid observation. I once was driven around by a girl from the office in Beijing, she took me to a bunch of government owned jade shops, in government owned taxi cabs. When I asked about the private owned cabs and jade shops, she told me bluntly that since they are not owned by the government they were lower quality.
This raised my eyebrows, as you can just can't equate a quality product with government.
The hotels mostly have internet access, high speed. There is a little note next to the hook up that warns you to be careful surfing the web and to stay away from material considered harmful by the goverment.
How would I fix it ?
I'm not sure anything is wrong. Actually, here in the US our websites are routinely blocked by agencies that are not even govermental (see Google, search pages removed due to DMCA requests).
I'm more worried that as a China Citizen you cannot leave the country (or go near the borders) without special permission. Everywhere you look there are little government officials in uniform asking questions. For the most part I ignore them, they generally leave foriengners well alone, but my buddies at the local office treat them as a layer of red tape.
One guy wanted to photocopy my passport, no way Jose ! And if you think that rustly ol' 38 scares me, let me tell you that this is not the first time someone pointed a gun at me. I was in india once and
This is not really news (Score:3, Interesting)
That you can buy a new ID card for about RMB 100 (about US$ 12) means that many Chinese have no qualms about handing over their ID numbers!
Any US companies involved (Score:2, Insightful)
SELECT (*) FROM PRISONERS
WHERE "TORTURE" = YES AND
"DEADYET" = NO AND
"PAINLEVELBEFOREPASSINGOUT" > 7
So ... (Score:4, Insightful)
... in China, where there are no guaranteed freedoms, surveillance will be in situ, but here in the Land of the Free we guarantee the freedom of access but encourage surreptitious [librarian.net] surveillance?
Not sure which is more unhealthy, but I can tell which is more honest.
Acceptable use? (Score:2)
How about ethical issues. Do they care if you view pr0n? Do they care if you post to slashdot? What sets the radar off?
Primedius anonymous surfing software (Score:2, Interesting)
Patriot Act (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Hmm... (Score:2)
Don't count on it. Anyone who is into that will not be ewager to reveal their identity so easily. Rather, look for a rise in the demand for personal information numbers and names, anything to disguise or "alternate" their identity. Big poofoo on China gov't part.
Re:Having lived there. (Score:2)
There has to be a double-standard there. What good would a PhD in the sciences be from a Chinese university?
Re:Having lived there. (Score:2)
You must have not been to US colleges in the last 10 years or so. Probably up to half of all Masters and PhD's for the sciences and engineering in all top US colleges and universities (and the not so top ones) go to students from China (and the other half mostly to India and Russia). These folks have enough academic acumin to turn out your lights - they don't know the meaning of "hard work."
Re:Having lived there. (Score:2)
Probably up to half of all Masters and PhD's for the sciences and engineering in all top US colleges and universities (and the not so top ones) go to students from China (and the other half mostly to India and Russia). These folks have enough academic acumin to turn out your lights - they don't know the meaning of "hard work."
What's that got to do with a Chinese university with a PhD program? specifically, how is is this relevant to a commentary on a culture of blind acceptance, except as a way of devalu
Re:Having lived there. (Score:4, Insightful)
"What I found particularly amazing, was that the culture has taught people not to question things."
I'm not sure we can chalk that up to Chinese culture per se as much as decades of brutal repression of dissidents who dared question authority.
I realize history vs. culture is not a clean distinction to make, but thought it might be worth clarifying that many have dared to speak out. Those prone to do so were and continue to be dealt with harshly.
Those not imprisoned learn to shut up. Yet even today, knowing the penalties and risks, some still continue to protest.
Re:Having lived there. (Score:5, Insightful)
There are clear lines of authority in Chinese culture, and to attempt to question these is to dishonor not your family (perhaps by extension), not your nation, but yourself.
There is nothing more shameful in Chinese culture than questioning the wisdom of elders. Elders are not only generational (i.e. grandfather -> father -> son) but also hierarchical (national government -> local government -> individual). To question authority is to show that you have no regard for your family, your citizenship, your fellow man... it is to show, in some sense, that you are a kind of sociopath.
Even in the west, even disagreeing with government policies in democratic nations, my father feels that it is embarrassing and dishonorable to complain too loudly about what government does, because government is, after all, government--the embodiment of the collective. Activism, for him, is certainly sociopathic behavior of the most base kind, disrespectful to fellow citizens.
Re:Having lived there. (Score:2)
"I can attest to the fact that Chinese culture is a patriarchal culture of not questioning. "
And yet we have those who stood up at Tiananmen Square [yi.org]. The younger generations are waking up.
I'm just saying we can't paint the Chinese population as universally passive in the face of authority. Things are changing, else the Chinese government wouldn't be so worried.
Yes which is why the Chinese don't commit crimes. (Score:4, Insightful)
We all know that China has one of the worlds lowest crime rates. So perhaps they do respect authority.
This is good and this is bad, its good because there's less wars, less terrorism, less crime. It's bad because there's less freedom.
Overall though the USA is no better, people at work never question authority. Everyone is anti government pro Boss, we kiss our bosses ass here and never question the word of the great boss at our job.
So in a way, the USA in the corporate world is no better when it comes to authority than China. I've never been pro authority, which is why I hated school and I can't stand the corporate world.
But there generally are two kinds of people, the ones who accept authority and the ones who can't. Generally the people who can't have a much harder time than the people who can, are more likely to drop out, or end up in prison.
It's not a cultural thing, its human nature for some people to respect authority and others not. In China however rebelling isn't an option because deviance is an American ideal. The rebels in China are quickly killed. Rebels in the USA are just locked in jail and then released after a while.
If the Black Panthers were hung, shot and murdered on national TV live, instead of just locked in jail people would think twice about challenging the government.
Perhaps this is why the Waco incident was on live TV.
Re:Having lived there. (Score:3, Insightful)
Doesn't make sense (Score:2)
Re:Doesn't make sense (Score:2)
Re:Having lived there. (Score:2)
kultur? (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm not sure cultural factors are primary here. Yes, there is a long heritage of collective responsibility, deference to elders and clan leaders, the paternalist state, etc. But do recall that the current regime has engaged in widespread, politically-motivated murder and torture.
The Party regards a form of collective spiritual and physical exercise [falundafa.org] as a political threat and have imprisoned and tortured its followers. It is within the living memory of most Chinese that the universities were emptied and
Re:Having lived there. (Score:4, Informative)
What's the deal with stealing my post VERBATIM from January 30th?
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=94950&
I'm reasonably sure this is the deffinition of Karma Whore
Re:Having lived there. (Score:2)
Sounds a lot like the USA as well. Most people are more than happy to believe anything the Person In Power tells them to believe.
Re:Having lived there. (Score:2)
I used to be a professor at a lousy university too. Only mine was in Texas.