RFID Coming 'Whether You Like It Or Not' 878
VTBassMatt writes "According to an interview with Scott McGregor of Philips Semiconductor in BusinessWeek, RFID tags are coming whether we like it or not but of course won't affect our privacy. Choice quotes from the article include such gems as, '[P]rivacy concerns around RFID tags are a little like concerns about supermarket scanners years ago. When the laser scanners were coming out, everybody was saying, retailers are going to collect information about what you buy. And none of that happened.' Is that why I have two loyalty cards on my keyring and three more in my wallet?"
RFID in the UK (Score:5, Interesting)
I investigated RFID for implementation within my company, but came up with
next to no suppliers, apart from one company [rfid.co.uk] who after several phone calls
'forgot' about the samples and paperwork they were meant to send. And I simply don't have the
time to implement from electronics [ti.com] up.
IMHO if someone wants to make some money on this, set up a company now, as no-one
else seems to have their act together with customer relations or advertising (yet).
I actually *wanted* to implement this, so imagine the chance someone who's indifferent,
or uninterested in this technology has of being persuaded to implement it in industry.
Re:RFID in the UK (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:RFID in the UK (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:RFID in the UK (Score:3, Funny)
Re:RFID in the UK (Score:5, Funny)
Re:RFID in the UK (Score:5, Informative)
Yup, 10% of all retail good sold in stores are sold through WalMart. 10%. That's huge. They can make you (as a supplier), but then they'll probably break you later on.
Re:Who actually shops at Wally-Mart? (Score:5, Informative)
Wal-mart forces a monopoly in small towns.
Where I am currently sitting, the town is population 18,000; pre-wally world, the town had 4 grocery stores, 2 department stores.
since Supper Wally came in, we have 2 grocery stores (and 1 of those will be closing within the year) and 0 department stores.
I've seen them go into a town of 8000 and cause everything but the walmart go out of business.
So, unless you live in a fairly urbanized area, walmart does it's best to become your ONLY choice.
Re:Counterpoint. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Who actually shops at Wally-Mart? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Who actually shops at Wally-Mart? (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't but(sic) it if you can't afford it.
I have no idea which "clothing and home items" the parent-poster was referring to, but if they are underwear and laundry detergent (or items like this) "don't buy it if you can't afford it" is not a viable option. Maybe you can afford a $400,000 home and drive a BMW but for many people when faced with the choice of paying $30 a pair for boxer shorts at the mall or a pack of 5 for $10 at wal-mart, they'll take wal-mart any day of the week.
Re:RFID in the UK (Score:4, Insightful)
Some seem to think that you're jumping on a bandwagon of "smart" people.
Some think you're being presumptious by lumping yourself with "smart" people.
Some just get all mad when someone says they believe in God.
I think, though, that they are a little unnerved by the fact that all these great, objective, scientific minds arrived at the conclusion that a god exists. This either means they have to wonder what these "great minds" were smoking or what they themselves are smoking to not see it.
Disclaimer: I myself am in the "Everything I have seen leads me to believe in God" camp of thought. If you want to know more of how people can *gasp* actually arrive at this conclusion, I'm sure myself or Doesn't_Comment_Code will be happy to entertain any legitimate conversation.
Re:RFID in the UK (Score:3, Funny)
it is true (Score:5, Insightful)
WalMart, etc. cannot wait for these. And actually I think the military might be a prime driver of wide scale adoption. The real trick is to get the cost down to pennies.
The huge cost savings will be in inventory. Imagine either enough readers in your warehouse to scan every location, OR a robot that drives around at night pinging RFID tags. Imagine being able to just push your cart through a metal detector & have everything scanned in seconds.
Also some RFID will have non-volatile memory and be able to record events or travels or born-on dates. For an extra $5 you can have a tamper-proof record of a packages travel. Or for $20 maybe a gps chip on board to record the shipment so audit it when it gets to where it is going.
I think the first place we'll see them will be as a new shopper card. You'll get a keychain (like the gas pump thingy) that will identify you at upscale stores or maybe even print out a shopping list for you when you enter the grocery store. Stores will want this because they can secretly track who looks at what items and for how long. Then they sell that information back to producers and marketing folks.
Re:it is true (Score:5, Insightful)
Aside from that, no way do I trust the speed pass that they have at gas stations now... if you want my credit card information you better have my card, not just get close to me. Any and every mom and pop will be able(required) to get these 'air readers' and then it's just a matter of time before you get your id stolen by walking down the wrong street. I'm *more* worried about the theft aspect than the government knowing everything about me (although I would prefer they didn't know either)
Re:it is true (Score:5, Interesting)
Imagine having a small piece of electronics that works on two AA batteries and burns out all RFIDs within a, say, one foot radius. Shouldn't be hard to make, really.
Now imagine running a store. Are you sure you want to charge your customers only for items with intact RFIDs?
Re:it is true (Score:4, Insightful)
That would be pretty much impossible to make unless your RFID tags are poorly designed. You have to have something the power of a microwave oven to fry the tags. Now ripping them off or shielding them or interfering with their transmission -- maybe. But that's quite a bit more noticeable than just frying them.
Of course, if you plan to shoplift, you can do it equally well with the current setup.
Re:it is true (Score:3, Interesting)
Now imagine running a store. Are you sure you want to charge your customers only for items with intact RFIDs?
My local supermarket (Safeway, in the UK) lets you walk round with a barcode reader yourself, then pay at the end without having to get everything scanned. The idea is that there's always the chance of having everything scanned anyway, depending on how "trustworthy" the system considers you to be. When you first start you'll get scanned most of the time, but after you get checked a few times and ar
Re:it is true (Score:3, Funny)
Then you could track RFIDs via gps.
People need to stop suggesting things are infeasable without actually considering them.
Aren't generalities fun?
Re:RFID in the UK (Score:3, Informative)
There is certainly people who will build custom solution based on RF tech everywhere provided you pay the price. But it seems harder to find RFID standards based providers
loyalty cards (Score:5, Interesting)
friends of mine work there, and they track *everything* you buy, with the card.
My own solution? 'could you use the store card? i'm not writing a check, but i want the things on sale'
it's too bad i can't play that on screen slot machine game to win the magic token though.
Re:loyalty cards (Score:5, Funny)
Re:loyalty cards (Score:5, Interesting)
Also, if there is no associated discount I don't use the card unless I am buying something particularly weird and out of the ordinary.
Perhaps it makes no real difference, but in some small corner of my mind I feel like I'm sticking it to the man. . .
Re:loyalty cards (Score:5, Funny)
Sure, until your friend decides to buy 50 copies of 'Catcher in the Rye' and a crate of ammunition with your card and the men in the black helicopters come for you.
Re:loyalty cards (Score:5, Funny)
I feel so jipped.
Re:Thats the cool things (Score:3, Funny)
I wasn't actually shooting for a +insightful either. More like +tinfoil-hat.
Re:loyalty cards (Score:3, Interesting)
Well it will sooner or later come around that your buying records will become a public Police Record (As with the books you buy under the patriot act). Then they will pattern your buying as a "Terrorist" if you are not cooperating with the latest dictum. Or they will monitor you for diet and restrict your health benefits if you...(Whatever is the latest violation) I guess I had better get my "Tin Foil Hat" because somebody is likely to think I am crazy to say this.
The problem here is that RFID will get sp
Re:loyalty cards (Score:5, Interesting)
Already been done - I don't have the time to track down examples, but you can google them up if you're really interested. A grocery chain, Safeway, I think, used a guy's purchasing history based on his loyalty card to defend themselves against a personal injury claim when he slipped on a wet floor in the store. They claimed since he regularly bought beer and wine with the card, that he was a drunkard and didn't fall down because of their wet floors - it was his alcoholic equilibrium at fault. Dunno how it turned out, but it made it into court.
-72
Re:loyalty cards (Score:5, Insightful)
For example, this case would be no different if it were a small mom-and-pop grocery in a one-horse town somewhere. Except in that case, it would be the clerk who always sees the customer buying beer who gives the testimony in court. The jury would then have to decide: Is this accurate testimony? Is the witness biased? Is the testimony complete? Is he hiding other information?
In Safeway's case it's not an eyewitness giving spoken testimony on the stand
Re:loyalty cards (Score:5, Interesting)
They recently added them, and while I am not too happy about it, they did one good thing and added a check box at the bottom that says "I will not share info with you, but give me a card anyway"
They will be keeping my business for that.
Re:loyalty cards (Score:3, Interesting)
Albertsons used the strike as an excuse in SoCal.
I bitched to the checkout person (after the strike). They weren't happy either.
I also picked the "I won't share". The (third party) lady giving out cards and applications asked me to fill out the rest. I pointed out that I had checked that box, and she said something to the effect of "Oh, I didn't know you could do that!"
An Important Clarification (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:An Important Clarification (Score:5, Informative)
surely you know, your name is encoded on that little magnetic strip?
with your real name- they can find your snail mail address-- truly..
A better idea - turn up the heat on management (Score:5, Interesting)
A good idea, but you can do better than that, give them the name of the President/CEO/CFO/CIO of the supermarket chain!! Let the company bigshots that make these stupid policies get hardcopy spammed and see how they like it.
So how do you find VIP names? Go to the corporate section of the company web page, look for investor information (if a publicly traded company) or "history" or such if a private company. Get a list of names of the officers and put that together with information about where the company is based. Jump over to the internet phone book with that information and you're all set. If you can't get a home address, just enter the corporate office address.
How 'bout a couple links to get you started? Kroger: http://www.kroger.com/financialinfo_reportsandsta
Food Lion: http://www.delhaizegroup.com/en/in_ar2002.asp
Re:loyalty cards (Score:4, Insightful)
Mix and Match cards and stores (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:loyalty cards (Score:3, Funny)
It's not just loyalty cards they track (Score:5, Interesting)
About a month after having our second child, the coupon printer at the checkout started printing coupons for baby formula, no matter what I bought.
Their system knew who I am based off of my ATM card, and knew that I had a new baby. It kept printing the formula coupons to keep me coming there.
Do I mind it? Hell no. The coupons I was constantly getting (And still getting occasionally) are worth about $10 each, and I was getting one no matter how little I spent at the store. There were several times I ran in for something small, and ended up with a buy one get one free coupon for formula worth 2-3x the amount of my purchase.
In the last few months, I've gotten $200-$300 worth of formula coupons, so to me it is worth them tracking what I buy at the grocery store.
Re:It's not just loyalty cards they track (Score:3, Interesting)
It is actually worth a lot less than $200-$300. The original price without the coupon or discount card is most likely inflated. I have noticed a trend among my local grocery stores, where the discounted price is actually the normal retail price. For example, at one store, eggs are $0.99 a dozen, while at another store, the eggs are $1.99 a dozen. At the $1.99 store
Re:loyalty cards (Score:4, Funny)
Recently I was in one in Phoenix area and there was a very nice looking woman in front of me. As the cashier said her name out loud, I repeated it and said it was nice to meet her too. She, quite understandbly, got very upset that now some complete stranger knew her name.
I tried to calm her down and state that she should be upset at the store policy of doing that, because her name shouldn't be spoken out loud so any creep -- like me -- could learn it and be one step closer to being a stalker.
Anyway, the cashier got huffy too. Ah, the fun you can have when shopping at a store 2,500 miles from home where you don't have to worry about running into these people again!
Re:loyalty cards (Score:3, Funny)
I once borrowed a card from a vey nice lady who was buying tofu and granola. I was buying an absurd amount of steak. I kind of wondered what kinds of targeted mail she got from that one...
How Loyalty Cards Work (Score:3, Informative)
They're not out to spy on you
The point of loyalty cards is not to allow a secret cabal of abstemious zealots to monitor whether you buy yellow mustard or brown. The point is to be able to identify frequent shoppers, and their buying preferences, and thus tailor the inventory of the store (and its "specials") to those frequent customers. Key point: they're identifying a class of people, not keeping track of you.
Here's how it works
Let's pretend that you and I are the management team at a local supermar
Congrats. (Score:5, Funny)
Walmart (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Walmart (Score:4, Funny)
You mean I'll have to upgrade my tin foil hat?!
Re:Walmart (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Walmart (Score:3, Informative)
Even if their records show that you bought that item recently, how can the computer tell whether it's the one you bought or a new one? They're not going to have a unique id for every sock ever sold.
Actually, they are going to have unique numbers. So they will know if your girlfriend buys your boxer shorts.
They aren't doing this with UPC codes, because it would take too much space. But with RFID, it is nearly as easy to store 256 bits as it is 20.
They are watching (Score:5, Interesting)
Loyalty cards are your choice (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Loyalty cards are your choice (Score:5, Insightful)
But it may be choice few low income families can afford.
If you are rich, you can afford to have privacy.
Supermarket loyalty cards (Score:5, Interesting)
If not then...
Fill them out like this:
123 Main St
Anytown, AK
12345
(800)-555-3825
RFID tags are a little different.
Re:Supermarket loyalty cards (Score:3, Funny)
- John Smith, Anytown AK
On the damn loyalty card thing (Score:5, Insightful)
1. I pay in cash only.
2. I fill out a form for a new card (even if I don't need it) and then throw the card away as I'm leaving. I don't fill out any of the information.
3. If a clerk gives me a hassle, I just look at them, smile, and say: "This is a conversation between me and your employer. I am trying to leave you out of it. If you would like to involve yourself in the conversation, that's fine, but I think you would rather not."
Step three usually gets the occasional nag to shut up very quickly and let me do my thing.
I figure eventually this has to end up costing them something - if everybody did that, instead of doing the sheeple thing and sticking with one card, I think that the stores would eventually give up on those damn cards.
Re:On the damn loyalty card thing (Score:5, Insightful)
Surely its a trade-off deal. People aren't being sheep, they are accepting that the company collects their data in return for gaining reward points/discounts. And for most people (myself included), that is an acceptable deal. Not all supermarkets offer loyalty cards, you can do business with them if you are not keen.
Um no (Score:5, Insightful)
If the vast majority of consumers stopped using them- the loss in revenue might kill the program but not the cost of the cards. That's like thinking you can drive them out of business by grabbing and extra plastic bag with each visist.
Re:Um no (Score:3)
I think that is why they tie a lot of contests in to the cards now- it is easier to administer and motivates users to give correct contact information.
I worked in the grocery business for quite a few years- at the stores and later in pricing- and the thing is- a lot of these chains are doing anything they can to st
Is this increasing or decreasing nationwide? (Score:3, Interesting)
Neither do the others: Lund's, Byerly's etc. I can't think of a single grocery chain around here that still uses loyalty cards.
Q:
Loyalty Card Swap (Score:5, Funny)
There is / was such a thing in the UK. (Score:5, Interesting)
I'll take them on (Score:5, Interesting)
I would probably choose to buy the product without a tag. And when I buy products that have them, I remove them.
But what concerns me is a law (and I could see this happening) that forbids anyone to remove RFID tags. That would scare the crap out of me. But up until that point, I'll handle the tags myself.
Re:I'll take them on (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree - if this happens, I move to Tonga.
What bothers me is that the RFID tags are about the size of a flake of pepper. This makes it really easy for a less-than-honest business (and isn't the U.S. just doing a wonderful job of showing the world what "honest business" means nowadays . . .) to ignore the proposed RFID labelling law and bury the damn things inside the lining of a shirt. Short of carrying an RFID jammer everywhere - and I ain't seen any yet - there's little to no defense against the intrusion or tracking.
Re:I'll take them on (Score:3, Informative)
And it's a game the consumer can't win, because the chain will have paid for the tag by what it saved in the warehouse. Anything it gets on the store floor or at the register will be gravy. But they'll still suck for all the gravy they can get.
Re:I'll take them on (Score:3, Interesting)
Well most of them around here are in the form of a small sticker. So when I have extra time, I open/unscrew the back of whatever I bought and peel out the tags. That works for now. If they started embedding them in the plastic or something, that could get more difficult. On the upside, they would be very difficult to hide, seeing as they respond to a radio ping and all. I'll just clear out one room of my house and set up s
The real question... (Score:5, Insightful)
All in all, I guess I can't really see any huge problem with the technology, though, as far as privacy is concerned-- that is, as long as it stays on the products themselves. If they suddenly start requiring RFIDs in the shopper cards so they know when I enter or leave the store, then I might have a concern.
Vote against this with your dollar. (Score:5, Interesting)
As such, I've cut back as much as I can from the Targets and Wal*Marts and other large chains, instead attempting to find smaller "Ma and Pa" shops that offer similiar merchandise. In today's market, you'd think these stores are hard to find, but I've actually found the opposite.
I've been able to buy vacuum cleaners cheaper than at the mass goods stores, TVs and DVD players as well. Found razor blades and shampoo and other items at stores that won't desire RFID or other tracking mechanisms, and I found them cheaper than I would have purchased them from the large chain stores or grocery stores.
Look around your community and find retailers who have no reason to jump on the RFID bandwagon. Do you use your "Preferred Shopper" card? You're already giving up your privacy. Do you buy online? You're already giving up your privacy. Do you give your phone number to a store when they ask for it when closing a sale? Bye bye privacy.
If you want more privacy, shop where stores provide it. Don't use your credit cards or write a check (the information can get deposited into a database), pay cash. Don't get "zero percent financing for 2 years" because you'll end up having those purchases tracked by who knows how many marketing firms.
Your choice for privacy is up to you. If you care about it, the power to keep your information away from prying eyes is readily available in even the smallest towns.
Re:Vote against this with your dollar. (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem, unfortunately, is pervasiveness. I don't think anybody much cares whether somebody is tracking their Aggressive Sports gear or not, so they buy it where it's cheap. They do care, in the abstract, about the idea that somebody is tracking _all_ of their purchases, but somehow that doesn't translate down to each individual action.
In addition, many people are of the mind that they're not doing anything wrong, so why not allow yourself to be tracked? They'd rather save a few bucks today than worry about an ill-defined threat in the future. Short-term thinking, I know, but it's really, really hard to stop.
So much paranoia... (Score:5, Insightful)
Hmmm... maybe I'm missing some point... Am I?
Drop that Kroger Card (Score:4, Informative)
At most Kroger stores, you can hit the top center grey button on the CC input box. The screen will show a K+ on the display. Type in the phone number associated with your Kroger Plus card, and it will process the discounts.
Just an FYI.
Re:Drop that Kroger Card (Score:4, Informative)
Uhhh they _are_ tracking what you buy (Score:5, Insightful)
The supermarket pulled up the guys shopping records over the last year or so. It turned out that he bought only alcohol 90% of the time while in the story. They defense team implied that he was an alcoholic and was drunk at the time, and that was why he fell, not because of the glass & liquid on the floor.
That's just one example. There are many, many more.
What is your privacy worth to you? $0.30 off a 2 liter bottle of coke? Good for you. My privacy is much more valuable to me, which is why I avoid the discount cards.
WHY CAN'T I HAVE MY DISCOUNT WITHOUT YOU KNOWING WHO I AM?
Re:Uhhh they _are_ tracking what you buy (Score:3, Insightful)
Did the supermarket win? IANAL, but this seems to have enormous holes that any competent attorney could make use of. Consider how silly the argument "He buys booze in closed containers from us r
Re:Uhhh they _are_ tracking what you buy (Score:4, Insightful)
Your discount? I'm sorry, is this a legal right you have? They are required to sell you an object at a discounted price? Who died and made you priveleged?
As long as they own the goods they are selling, they have a right to ask any price they want. They have a right to gather personal information if you voluntarily give it up. They have a right to provide discounts for customers who do.
The real bottom line is the bottom line. If they don't attract repeat customers they go out of business. If they don't provide value for premium items and services (whether the value is percieved or real depends on the recipient) then they go out of business.
If they can track the buying habits of a mere 15% of their customers, they can significantly reduce their loss. This loss can be to overstock/understock, timing patterns, etc. They can increase in store targetted advertising, sell shelf space to manufacturers at a higher premium, etc.
If you don't want it, don't take it. But don't automatically assume that you are more deserving than those who trade their personal information for a slight discount.
-Adam
Yeah right! (Score:3, Interesting)
I am an Networking contractor. Some of my customers do this very thing.
A large chain of video rental stores in Sydney Australia spring to mind...
They DO collect data on what customers buy and retain the link between that data and that customer. The customer then receives promotional material via whatever channels they know how to get to you.
The store owner who told me this, assured me that all was okay because, they "don't sell that data".
That made me feel so much better.
FRID = Invasion of Privacy (Score:3, Interesting)
Excuse me? What do you think "Club cards" are, and why do you think there is a discount associated with it? All the info about what you buy is aggregated to create shopping profiles in order to suck more $$$ out of you in the form of targeted advertising and "sharing your info with our business partners."
RFID is everything that the barcode scanners are in terms of information collection, and A WHOLE LOT MORE! Consider: you go to your local supermarket and buy a six pack or two and walk out the front door, RFIDs and all. If an hour later you leave the parking lot but the six pack with the RFID doesn't, what's the logical conclusion, and how long will it be before all of the bored busy-body housewives of the world DEMAND that law enforcement be notified of such a scenario just in case someone might be drinking and then driving???
After all, it's for the safety of the children...
Re:FRID = Invasion of Privacy (Score:3, Funny)
Must have been pretty drunk to drink the RFID tag too.
the joy of rewards cards (Score:5, Insightful)
Is that why I have two loyalty cards on my keyring and three more in my wallet?
Yeah, don't get me started on "rewards cards" -- I'm carrying two on my keyring as well. There's no reward to those cards. Basically, the supermarkets have decided that unless you become one of the sheep, and carry around their silly cards so they can track your purchases, they won't let you purchase anything on sale.
Which would be fine with me. I'd be happy to take my business elsewhere. Except there is no elsewhere when it comes to supermarkets. They all have "rewards cards" now. So it's either let them track all your purchases, or pay a steep penalty by being excluded from sale items. The same thing's gonna happen with RFID. There will be no place you can go to avoid them.
Except, that is, your local co-op, and similar small-scale businesses. I happen to buy most of my groceries at the co-op just because the prices are comparable, the food is grown closer to me, the politics are better, and I know I'm not getting tracked. Unfortunately, I doubt that enough people care about their privacy for an anti-RFID movement to emerge.
I'm a Keyring Bitch... (Score:3, Interesting)
It sucks, but I try not go down without a fight. You know, it amazes me how many people simply do not care about the wealth of information garnered about them. I've brought this up in lunchroom conversations with my fellow employees and they're like, "Oh well, what can ya do..."
Get this: Recently, I went to a bank to cash a check. This was not my bank, but the check belonged to them and as I was in a hurry for the money, I thought I'd simply cash it there.
I showed them my ID, but you can guess my reaction when they asked me for a FINGERPRINT! "Oh, it's just a formality..."
Bullshit! Look, I don't mind that the gov't has this info on me (I was in the Army once), but it REALLY bothers me when a financial institution can ask for this. Needless to say, I deposited my check at my bank, but I was a bit shaken by the incident.
Is this the beginnings of our Brave New World? If so, I hope they use oral thermometers. No way I'm getting that up my ass for 5% off!
To quote Jeremy Allison (Score:4, Funny)
I for one, have faith that our new RFID overlords are too stupid and disorganized to make real capital out of the data. Or as a friend, who worked for the U.S. Census once said, quoting the X Files "If the truth is out there, they lost it"
RFID vs UPC (Score:3, Insightful)
With a UPC, there's a limited number (10^12) of possibilities, you can tell what information it contains and compare between things--even if the numbers aren't there, it's not too difficult to figure them out from the bar code pattern--and you can tell when it is being scanned.
With RFID, there's a potential for transmitting much more information, the information can't be read/compared without a scanner, and it's easy to scan without anyone knowing.
I think that if legislation was passed saying what uses of RFID should be legal and what should not, a lot less people would be worried about it.
Loyalty cards (Score:3, Insightful)
Privacy concerns (Score:5, Insightful)
The simple solution is not to embed the tag within the garment but for the tag takes the form of a label that is removed at the point of sale
The retailer gets full advantage of the tags within their stock chain.
The purchaser has no privacy issues.
Additionally the retailer also has the advantage that the tag can be reused.
slashnik
"Loyalty" cards (Score:3, Informative)
3 simple ways to fix the potential for abuse (Score:3, Insightful)
RFID shall only be used against white lists of your own property. Any other reading must be discarded.
RFID shall be prominently labeled, and be removable without destruction, devaluation or vandalism to the item that is attached to. For example, someone here asked, why not just cot off the tag? Answer is that some clothing is now coming tagless.
Warranties shall not require RFID tags in order to be upheld.
RFID is good technology, let's not let it's overwhelming potential for abuse become an issue.
The supermarket card is a good example... (Score:5, Interesting)
There have already been two cases (that I'm aware of) in which data collected by supermarket cards has been used in court. The first was a case where the info was used to show that a man had a habit of buying very expensive wines, and was successfully used to argue that he could therefore afford more in allimony than he was initially supposed to pay. The second case involves a man suing the grocery store for slipping while shopping. The store attempted to use the man's buying history to show that he was likely an alcoholic.
Scared yet?
How about RFIDs? How can they be miss-used? Well, just look at EZPass, the toll-booth system that uses RFIDs to automatically charge motorists. That info, in the state of IL, has been supoenaed 11 times already. In one case to prove infidelity in a divorce case.
Now imagine how many places will use RFIDs. Every store. Public places. EVERYWHERE. Compile and cross-reference this data and you can assemble a complete picture of a person.
This is not "tin foil hat" material. It IS happening and it WILL continue if you don't do something.
Help Spam Safeway Clubcards!!! (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.cockeyed.com/pranks/safeway/ultimate_s
Basically, it gives instructions for how to create a Safeway barcode. Hundreds of people use this same number when shopping, getting all the discounts, but completely obscuring their own tracks.
Please join!
no more queues... (Score:3, Interesting)
I really don't see the privacy implication here. All they will know is what you've bought, which they know anyway, seeing you're paying for it. How exactly are they going to use the RFIDs to invade anyone's privacy?
I'm sure even i can come up with some ludicrous schemes, and knowing the way the world works some of them will be implemented eventually, but at the moment with the things they propose i see it as a stock-keeping and payment issue, and nothing else...
Ponxx
This quote disqualifies the guy as an expert (Score:5, Insightful)
Retailers DO collect info about what you buy, corps like WalMart and Target have huge datamining efforts to figure out what they should place near other items in the store based on buying patterns
Mandatory RFID Wristbands at SXSW Music Festival (Score:5, Interesting)
Analogies suck (Score:4, Interesting)
Comparing RFID to bar codes is close in that that is what most retailers want them for.
However, that doesn't change the fact that bar codes DO NOT TRANSMIT and CAN NOT BE SEEN unless you put them in plain site.
It's like the difference in security between an ethernet cable and an open WiFi signal. Same -intended- purpose, but one is far more prone to abuse.
What a Crock! (Score:5, Informative)
My friend was the project manager on the project that brought the loyalty cards to Giant Foods (big in the Mid-Atlantic region of the US, not sure about elsewhere) and he told me this is _exactly_ what they do. They track all your purchases and which sale items you buy, etc. Heck, the management there was giving him crap about not shopping at their stores because they were looking up his records at work!!
We are being tracked... more and more and with greater efficency every day. Personally, it scares the crap out of me.
Safeway (Score:3, Informative)
Regards,
-JD-
Loyalty cards... (Score:3, Insightful)
RFID can be used to track items purchased, but really don't have a direct way to tie that information back to an individual consumer (assuming you don't give them the information in another way). A lot of stores have ways of doing this anyway and have for a very long time. Keeping track of what sells help keep your prices down by reducing overhead and helps make sure things are reordered promptly. There isn't a large difference between keeping track of what is sold and keeping track of the IP addresses tha access a web page and where they came from.
Consumer loyalty cards are very different. They track by individual user. A store might know that I like to buy a certain brand of cereal and use that information to increase their revenue by either targeting me in a marketing campaign or by selling the data to another company. Every loyalty program I've ever seen are voluntary except for private bulk stores (like SAMS CLUB or COSTCO). You are getting the discount in agreement that the store can use your information. If you don't agree, you can't complain about not getting a discount because they are not makinge money from you. Lower income families are more likely to use this, but their information is also less likely to be useful because of the lower discretionary income. There are also numerous ways around these cards and several people have commented on them.
There is also the option of not shopping at RFID or loyalty cards stores. Don't be angry when you have to pay more. Businesses are designed to make money. They use any legal means to do this function. While the ethics of this may be questionable, it is not currently illegal. If a store says that they'll give you a discount in exchange for marketing information, competing businesses may be put at a disadvantage because the primary shopping habit of people is based on price, not privacy.
Disabling RFID (Score:4, Insightful)
The current RF security tags (RF, not magnetic or accoustic tags) work via a passive or sympathetic action. The security sensors at the store exits transmit a low power RF signal. The RF tag receives this signal, which is converted to a weak electrical charge, which in turn powers a small transmitter. If the security scanner detects a signal on the RF tag's output frequency then it sounds the alarm. To disable a tag, a signal is broadcast at the same frequency as the "input" frequency of the RF tag, except the signal strength is so strong it burns up the tag (or more specifically burns out a specific fuse-like weak link in the tag).
So my point is that RFID tags also have to be powered externally by an RF signal - they are the same as RF security tags except their output signal is modulated to include static data. If someone had equipment set up, say in their vehicle, to broadcast at a few hundred watts (or perhaps thousands of watts in a short burst), they could potentially burn out quite a few tags in the store.
I'm somewhat surprised no one is doing this currently with the RF security tags.
Dan East
RFID benefits the retailer, not the customer (Score:5, Informative)
A: There's a theoretical risk. But we have safeguards, and more are coming. Our tags have a kill function that will destroy the tag in case of tampering.
Destruction in case of tampering is to protect the retailer, not the customer.
There are ways to simply erase the information on the tag. There are also less high-tech ways to deal with this: When I buy a garment, one of the first things I do when I get it home is cut off the tags. You can cut off RFID tags the same way.
Also, privacy concerns around RFID tags are a little like concerns about supermarket scanners years ago. When the laser scanners were coming out, everybody was saying, retailers are going to collect information about what you buy. And none of that happened. I think the situation with RFID is similar.
Exactly that happened: retailers gather data on customers, made possible by barcodes. RFID is like a barcode which can be scanned as you walk past the scanner, even if it's in a pocket or inside the sole of a shoe:
And for a lot of makers of sports shoes, RFID provides added benefit to customers. The average life of a sports-shoe model is about three months. Say that when your shoes wear out, you want a similar pair. It's incredibly difficult today for the retailer to tell a customer which new model corresponds to the old one. But we could fix that with RFID. That's a great sales tool.
As if current shoes couldn't have their model number printed on the inside. And what was that above about removing the RFID tag? How do you do that when it's embedded in the shoe? What better place to put a unique serial number than in a person's shoes, to be read by floor-based scanners under doorways.
Devil's advocate (Score:4, Insightful)
On the pro side:
You get targetted coupons
Stores get superior inventory flow management. This allows them to cut costs. This may result in: lower cost product, higher wages to employees, higher bonuses to bigwigs. None of those are horrible things.
On the con side:
"They" are "watching" me.
Will someone explain to me why the hell a store cares how many bottles of preparation-H you buy, other than to make sure they stock enough to meet demand? To what nefarious purposes are they going to put this info?
I'm limiting this to barcodes/loyalty cards. I'm well aware of the Minority-Report-esque possibilities of RFID outside the store.
Re:Papers please? (Score:5, Interesting)
And you know what, I don't care at all if they track my purchases. This is because:
- I get coupons for items I frequently buy
- I didn't have to give out my name or address to get the card, so it's anonymous data
- The data from my purchases helps them run their store better, so everyone's happy
Re:Papers please? (Score:4, Informative)
And coupons for things that they want you to start buying. Do you really think they're doing you a favour? There's no way they are making a loss on "sale" prices, so the more generous-looking the offer, the more they're screwing you by default.
A good site for this stuff. [nocards.org]
- I didn't have to give out my name or address to get the card, so it's anonymous data
- The data from my purchases helps them run their store better, so everyone's happy
Well, no. The data from your purchases helps them ditch "unprofitable" customers, so they ain't happy.
Around 1999, the supermarket industry got wise that the larger part of their profit was being made from a small minority of customers, ones that buy high profit items (like premium ice-cream). The card data lets them profile what the "profitable" shopper buys, and they send coupons and stock the shelves to please them. In the mean time, they try and discourage "unprofitable" customer by shrinking shelfspace for the lines that they buy, and the "profit" guys don't. Because of this, they don't really care what your name is (like they ever did as long as they got your money). They just want to know your profile and work out whether they still want you as a customer.
It doesn't take an Einstein to work out that the end result is to phase out the cheap, low margin, staples that the lower income bracket depend on in favour of Haagen-Daaz and Organic Cider. So after stamping out the local Ma and Pa stores with agressive pricing of these basic goods, they want to be absolved of the responsibility of providing them because they have a low margin.
In the UK, this is fairly mild at present. You get a percentage discount (as redeemable coupons) and the odd (targetted) product coupon. Some lines have extra "points" on them but the price stays the same whether you have a card or not. I hear in the US some stores pretty much enforce the uptake of these cards by using punitive prices on some basic goods - like offering the "sale price" pretty much where it was before but raising the no-card price to a silly level. Although the UK market does have a number of synergistic loyalty cards that cover several outlets (e.g. Shopping + Fuel + Electric + Others).
Curiously, the Wal-Mart (Asda) stores in the UK are one of the few that don't have profiling cards. But I wouldn't be surprised if they were tying shopping records to one-way hashes of payment card info (or if anyone else was).
In the meantime, can you imagine the opportunities afforded by RFID? No more do they have to offer the semblance of "loyalty" to get their profile data - they can just tie the purchase logs to the RFID in your shoes. Chains that collaborate can start tying clothes preferences to food preferences to any other preference, tracking your movement through stores (no purchase required!), hell, even noting how long you pause in front of the rack of iPods, with sub-floor RFID pickups. (<Marketroid>"He stopped and drooled for 10 minutes today, send him another brochure!")
Re:Papers please? (Score:4, Insightful)
If they have a similar product to something I'm already buying, I might check it out. I'm not going to buy it simply because I have a cupon for it. The only things I ever recall getting cupons for which I did not buy are gas discounts.
It doesn't take an Einstein to work out that the end result is to phase out the cheap, low margin, staples that the lower income bracket depend on in favour of Haagen-Daaz and Organic Cider.
It also doesn't take a huge database system and supermarket cards to implement what you are discussing here. And, if your theory was correct, every grocery store would have turned into a boutique, only offering quaint, premium-brand foods.
Almost everything I buy is FMV or Kroger brand (which isn't being phased out at all, at least not at the supermarket near my house), and I'm damn happy with it. C'mon, get with the program here.
Re:Papers please? (Score:3, Insightful)
And, this explains the utter failure of WalMart and the stunning success of Bread and Circuses.
Re:Papers please? (Score:3, Funny)
=]
Re:Cool uses for RFID (Score:5, Funny)
Fridge: "Your fish fingers are 3 days out of date."
Me: "Why won't the microwave open?"
Microwave: "Those fish fingers are 3 days out of date. I'm not having them in here"
Me: "Open the microwave door, HAL..."