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CRIA Prepares To Sue P2P Copyright Violators 383

ergo98 writes "The Canadian version of the RIAA, the CRIA (Canadian Recording Industry Association), has begun laying the PR groundwork for an initiative similar to that pursued by the RIAA in the US - threatening to file lawsuits against individual file sharers (specifically uploaders). They claim that CD sales have dropped by 23 per cent since 1999, attributing that drop to P2P, and apparently it isn't enough that the Canadian music industry gets a hefty presume-you-are-a-criminal levy attached on various devices and media." Many readers also point to the Globe and Mail's version of the story. dsanfte writes "They will apparently only be targetting uploaders, because in the Copyright Board's judgement, P2P downloading is legal under Canadian law."
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CRIA Prepares To Sue P2P Copyright Violators

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  • by FuzzyBad-Mofo ( 184327 ) <fuzzybad AT gmail DOT com> on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @09:54PM (#7741750)

    Class. Action. Lawsuit.

  • yes.... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by xao gypsie ( 641755 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @09:55PM (#7741754)
    ....because cd sales drops have nothing to do with things like slow economies, declining quality in music, overpriced cds.....

    xao
    • If people don't like the music, then why are they downloading it to listen to?
    • Re:yes.... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by shark72 ( 702619 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @10:42PM (#7742049)

      "....because cd sales drops have nothing to do with things like slow economies, declining quality in music, overpriced cds....."

      Music quality is a constant; the good-stuff-to-crap ratio is about the same today as it was ten or twenty or thirty years ago. Nostalgia ain't what it used to be: we tend to think of the 1970's as the decade of Dark Side of the Moon or The Long Run or (insert your favorite classic 70's album here), but there was a LOT of crap back then, too. We've just pushed it out of our memory. The recent huge drop in CD sales can't easily be attributed to music quality, as it's a constant.

      Music pricing is another constant. In fact, in the USA, it's gone down a bit. The average price of a CD is down to $13.50 in the US. In 1984, $9.99 was considered a decent price for an LP. That would be $17.30 in 2002 dollars. So, again, the recent huge drop in CD sales can't be attributed to pricing alone, as it's a constant.

      This leaves the economy. In one way the economy is definitely a big cause, as an unemployed person may be more liable to resort to pirating music than the same person would if they still had a job. But it's tough to blame the drop in CD sales entirely on the economy, for a couple of reasons: other forms of entertainment (including those that aren't piratable) haven't dropped nearly as much, and while the economy has had its ups and downs over the past several decades, this drop in CD sales is unprecedented.

      Claiming that the utter explosion in music piracy over the past few years has absolutely no effect on CD sales is a phenomenon that I call "ignoring the elephant" -- that is, the two-ton elephant in the room wearing a shirt labelled "music piracy." The drop in sales is likely due to many factors, piracy being one of them, but this is a complex issue not easily solved by simple bromides like "it's the economy."

      And, of course, economy or not, if the Canadian record companies think that piracy is part of the problem, it's their prerogative to do something about it. Sure, lowering CD prices, working with legitimate download sites, and education are key as well, but sometimes you've just got to kick some ass.

      • Re:yes.... (Score:5, Interesting)

        by CrowScape ( 659629 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @11:00PM (#7742166)
        Actually it's probably more due to competition from the DVD arena. When I spend money on entertainment, it's in the form of a couple DVDs that I can pick up for 17-23 USD, a much better bang-for-my-buck than even $13.50 for CDs. And no, I don't download mp3s. My DVD collection has fast outpaced my CD collection, and I wouldn't compare DVDs to VHS, as I rarely touched that God-awful format. For Christmas I used to have people asking for CDs, but as my friends and relatives started aquiring DVD players, they also started replacing their CD requests with DVD requests.

        Of course, this is all anecdotal
        • Re:yes.... (Score:3, Interesting)

          by 3terrabyte ( 693824 )
          Yep, lots of interviews with teenagers show that DVD's seem to be a better entertainment dollar. Plus they're new. The sales of DVD players are still going up. So that means more and more people getting DVD's now. Also, people have already replaced their tapes & vinyl, so CD's are no longer 'new'. People are still replacing their VHS.

          The computer game market is still going up, up, up, also, so there are at least 2 different entertainment genres in direct competition with music. There is only so much mo

      • Re:yes.... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by MikeXpop ( 614167 ) <{moc.rabworcder} {ta} {ekim}> on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @11:06PM (#7742218) Journal
        We tend to think of the 1970's as the decade of Dark Side of the Moon or The Long Run or (insert your favorite classic 70's album here), but there was a LOT of crap back then, too. We've just pushed it out of our memory. The recent huge drop in CD sales can't easily be attributed to music quality, as it's a constant.
        Ha! I laugh at you. The 70's did have a lot of crap, yes. But it also had more gold than Fort Knox. DSotM, London Calling, The Clash, Nevermind the Bullocks, Wish You Were Here, The Wall, Meddle, [Insert Led Zeppelin album here]. We have nothing like that now. Now it's both crap (Pop-drivel Green Day, Good Charlotte, Backstreet Boys) or just plain "good" (Radiohead, Tool). We have no exceptional bands. At least none that are being pimped by the RIAA.

        Disguise it all you want, music has declined.

        (Ready for the real shocker? I'm 16.)
        • Re:yes.... (Score:3, Insightful)

          by aardvarkjoe ( 156801 )
          (Ready for the real shocker? I'm 16.)

          In other words, you're looking at it with three decades of space in between, and probably have never heard the vast majority of the music from that time period, which -- like always -- was crap.

          Don't mistake your preference for certain music for being evidence of that music's quality. Do you listen to classical music? Jazz? Gregorian chants? If not, do you deny that there is quality to be found among them?

          There are some talented musicians today. Yes, even ones u
        • It's not shocking at all that you're 16.

          Those of us who were ACTUALLY AROUND in the 70s know what the parent post was talking about. You're just deciding the 70s had more gold, because it's 2003 and you can look back on it and name all the good bands. Meanwhile, there were tons of top ten, disco-pop bullshit acts.

          Today, we have bands that you list as bad which many people consider good--Green Day, Good Charlotte, not to mention everyone from The Strokes to Opeth to Metallica to Foo Fighters to A Perfect
          • Is the way music is mixed and mastered. Today everything, is limited and compressed to hell. They squash all the dynamic range out of the music to make it sound louder. This pissess me off. I have a really nice setup that can reproduce impressive dynamics, I want to get use of it. But if the music is popular (this isn't done with Jazz and Calssical often thankfully) it is just limited like nothing else. It can be crap like Britney Spears or good stuff like Evanescence or Lacuna Coil, doesn't matter, it's al
      • by xtal ( 49134 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @11:37PM (#7742396)
        Music pricing is another constant. In fact, in the USA, it's gone down a bit. The average price of a CD is down to $13.50 in the US. In 1984, $9.99 was considered a decent price for an LP. That would be $17.30 in 2002 dollars. So, again, the recent huge drop in CD sales can't be attributed to pricing alone, as it's a constant.

        In 1984, Movies cost around $100cdn to buy, IIRC. I see lots of DVD movies in Walmart for $14.99-24.99, including new and popular films. A large majority are priced cheaper than the movie soundtracks, something that always makes me chuckle.

        I can put a collection of a years worth of "popular" and "pseudo-popular" programs on a couple DVDs. If uploading is quashed, then a much harder to regular and control sneekernet will quickly be established in schools. It's not that hard to do.

        One thing I have been waiting for is a small device for doing PTP sharing in public. It would be unstoppable in a setting like a school - integrating 802.11 into an iPod is not technologically a difficult problem. I can imagine it giving people strokes in the record industry though - not just schools, but think subways, whatever.

        Once the public has decided there is nothing wrong with 'free' music - then guess what, there probably will be free music. There effectively is now - think to the radio. There is no reason musicians cannot make money touring. There is good entertainment value in records. What will change, is the luxury offices for RIAA executives and private jets for the metallicas of the world will end.

        This fight has never been about music copying. They're scared shitless of losing the distribution and production channels.

      • Re:yes.... (Score:3, Insightful)

        by zephyr1256 ( 729696 )
        but there was a LOT of crap back then, too. We've just pushed it out of our memory. The recent huge drop in CD sales can't easily be attributed to music quality, as it's a constant.

        While you have a point, I think you are unjustified in claiming that music quality is actually constant. First, music quality is a subjective factor. Those who think music quality has declined in recent years are correct, though, and no doubt it means they buy less new music. Some others may like new stuff, but even saying

      • Re:yes.... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by thales ( 32660 ) on Wednesday December 17, 2003 @12:17AM (#7742582) Homepage Journal
        You are missing one thing that isn't a constant, yhe number of titles released. As the RIAA members merge into larger and larger companies they are releasing fewer and fewer titles each year.

        A CD that isn't released will sell ZERO copies

        The RIAA is pushing formula music and not releasing as many titles, and it's the bands that haven't made it big that are getting hit the hardest. Some of these bands could have been this years big run away hit, but they never got recorded because they didn't have the formula sound the RIAA is looking for.
    • Re:yes.... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Saeger ( 456549 ) <(farrellj) (at) (gmail.com)> on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @11:44PM (#7742431) Homepage
      The complete laundry list of reasons why CD sales are dropping...

      1. People want online convenience, either from free p2p, or cheap iTunes, or other.
      2. People are conditioned to view p2p AS FREE LIKE RADIO, and think nothing of it - it's an advertisement for a concert and merchandise.
      3. A down economy.
      4. DVDs and Video Games are a much better value!
      5. People are done replacing their old LP/cassette collections.
      6. Quality of music has dropped thanks to the soulsucking megacorp cookiecutter and "independent" clearchannel promoters.
      7. Used CDs are easier to trade through ebay and the like.
      8. Independent artists are more accessible now.
      9. People are actively sticking it to the RIAA because they know how badly the artists are getting screwed.
      10. 192 people are protesting perpetual copyrights...
      11. ...unf.

      Assign weights to each as you deem fit.

      --

  • Hmm... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by EvilSporkMan ( 648878 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @09:55PM (#7741761)
    So if you can download in Canada and you can download in the U.S., why don't the Canadians share American music for the U.S.ers and vice versa? Surely that wouldn't be too hard to rig up, if only by agreement...
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @09:56PM (#7741765)
    Er, wait, they are doing something I *don't* like this time? That's hardly fair.
  • by toddhunter ( 659837 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @09:57PM (#7741775)
    Without the uploaders, you will be hard pressed to find downloaders anyway.
    What about this though, someone creates a virus that intentionally leaves a limited back-door into your system. This lets anyone log on, look at media files on your computer and download them.
    Then you never made your files available for sharing, the downloader is liable for breaking into your computer, but it just happens that you don't want to lay any charges.
    If only there was a way to get a virus onto a windows computer without people being seen to knowingly install it...
    • by gl4ss ( 559668 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @10:04PM (#7741819) Homepage Journal
      ..actually you can already claim that with kazaa.

      there's some progs that install on your computer without your consent that always turn the uploading on(i don't remember how exactly these programs spread, but iirc it was a bug in kazaa itself, which may or may not be close. also i suspect that people would leave such backdoored .exes on as well causing it.).

    • Well a back door is essentially the same thing.

      But.. how can half of a 2 way process be illegal? It seems to me this is similiar to it being legal to buy something but illegal for someone to sell it to you. Im probably missing an obvious example of this but I cant think of any now.

      I think lawyers do stuff like this on purpose to increase the demand for themselves.
      • But.. how can half of a 2 way process be illegal?

        Jurisprudence.

        There's no way, unless videotaped or via some sort of audio record of your wrongdoings, to prove that you intentionally and wilfully acquired something illegal.

        It is, however, your responsibility to ascertain that acquired merchandise is owned by the provider.

        However, due to the previous item, you can not be liable for acquiring a product that was wrongfully acquired by the provider.

        An example of this is buying a packaged CD or a pair of j
    • After you install the virus on my computer, I call the FBI (or its Canadian equivalent), and the jack-booted thugs break down your door and throw your ass in the pen.

      Assuming that people will be okay with this is very far from a safe bet.

  • by velkr0 ( 649610 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @10:02PM (#7741803)
    Are they hoping that they can scare me into buying music again. I used to buy cd's all the time, and i currently own over 330. But, buying cd's is simply a pain, since i lose them, they get punked and of course they collect dust on my cd rack...

    MP3's on my iPod always stay nice and shiny, and follow me everywhere i go!!

    Canada needs iTMS soon, because i still have a bit of cash in my budget for my favourite tunes!
    • Hmm, 330 X $15.00 (aprox average) = almost 5 grand. Many college kids have to make the decision of either music or transportation. The music buying habit is an expensive addiction.
      Most people would rather have an unlimited subscription to a large library rather than buying a few CD's.

      Now a question for those over 30;

      How often to you listen to music in your library over 5 years old. I bet most have some CD's you just never get around to listening to anymore. I know I have a few I haven't listened to fo
    • I'm with you. I used to buy two CDs a week, but when napster came out I was one of the first to sign on, and for a while had one of the most respectable jazz mp3 collections available, simply because I backed up all my music to MP3. I shared like crazy because I OWNED those CDs and felt no guilt in making them available online. Of course eventually those CDs gathered dust, so I sold them at the local shop.

      At this point I haven't bought an album in nearly five years (yup!). To tell you the truth, I don't

  • Quick Primer (Score:5, Informative)

    by SirSlud ( 67381 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @10:02PM (#7741807) Homepage
    In Canada, it is legal to borrow content (a CD, movie, etc) from a friend (or stranger), and copy it for your own personal use.

    It is not legal to MAKE copies of content you own, and distribute it to friends (or strangers).

    This is why downloading is legal (you're 'borrowing' a copy, and copying it), but uploading is illegal (you're copying what you presumably own, and distributing it.)

    We pay additional taxes on media to support this system. I think its just gone up again, with MP3 players now being taxed as they represent blank media on which you might copy somebody else's content.

    This is my udnerstanding of our system. Corrections are invited.
    • Re:Quick Primer (Score:5, Informative)

      by debrain ( 29228 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @10:12PM (#7741872) Journal
      We pay additional taxes on media to support this system. I think its just gone up again, with MP3 players now being taxed as they represent blank media on which you might copy somebody else's content.

      The levy price did not go up; the actual prices stayed the same. You can read about it here [canadagazette.gc.ca]

      MP3 player's are now being taxed, which is new. The gist of the protection is that you may fundamentally circumvent copyright if you give away the original, and you are permitted to keep copies, from my understanding. So you may make a copy of a CD, keep the copy, and give away the original CD, and not have violated the rights of the copyright holder.

      The essence of this, distinguished from "real" copyright violations, is that you can only give away the original once, and so you cannot mass produce the effect of that lost copyright. Or so my understanding goes ...

    • Re:Quick Primer (Score:5, Informative)

      by atommoore ( 720369 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @10:12PM (#7741873) Journal
      I believe you interpreted the ruling perfectly.

      "On March 19, 1998, Part VIII of the (Canadian) Copyright Act dealing with private copying came into force. Until that time, copying any sound recording for almost any purpose infringed copyright, although, in practice, the prohibition was largely unenforceable. The amendment to the Act legalized copying of sound recordings of musical works onto audio recording media for the private use of the person who makes the copy (referred to as "private copying"). In addition, the amendment made provision for the imposition of a levy on blank audio recording media to compensate authors, performers and makers who own copyright in eligible sound recordings being copied for private use."

      -- Copyright Board of Canada: Fact Sheet: Private Copying 1999-2000 Decision [cb-cda.gc.ca]

      Seems like sealand [demon.co.uk] will be the one place to upload anything sooner or later.
      • What every single discussion of this issue has neglected to consider is that it is possible for you to borrow your friend's CD without having physically having it in your possession. For instance you could get his permission to use his CD, and then send someone to go pick it up for you. Or, you could borrow his CD AND his computer and then use his computer and broadband connection to send the contents of the CD to yourself. Thus, you are copying something for yourself. Who is uploading? Is it you or your fr
    • Yup, that's pretty much the clear mud of it. And yes, the levies did just go up but not as much as everyone feared it may be.

      http://www.globeinvestor.com/servlet/ArticleNews/ s tory/ROC/20031212/2003-12-13T002411Z_01_N12402633_ RTRIDST_0_BUSINESS-MEDIA-CANADA-COPYRIGHT-COL [globeinvestor.com]
    • So...*I* can't copy MY media that *I* legally purchased, but I CAN copy YOUR media that *I* did NOT legally purchase?

      My head hurts just thinking about that.
    • This is why downloading is legal (you're 'borrowing' a copy, and copying it), but uploading is illegal (you're copying what you presumably own, and distributing it.)

      While I'm sure there are arguments that simply posting a file via p2p is not distributing, it is merely...shall we say...making available...I would argue that the uploader is NOT copying. The downloader is actually making the permanent copy (yes, I suppose that the uploader must send a copy of the bits out over the wire, yadda yadda, but the
    • The levy on CD media actually stayed the same, and will remain the same through 2004 (link [cb-cda.gc.ca]). Only mp3 players with non-removable storage media are charged. Removable storage devices, and also recordable DVDs, are exempt. I believe the act covers only music, not all content.

      This uploading/downloading part is what I don't get. Where do they think the downloads come from? Under the analogy that downloading is the 'borrowing', wouldn't me sharing my files just be the 'allowing you to borrow', as opposed t
    • >In Canada, it is legal to borrow content (a CD,
      >movie, etc) from a friend (or stranger), and copy it for your own personal use.

      The Decision by the board is interesting. It legitimizes private copying as long as 2 conditions are met:

      * the copy must be made for private use (as defined in section 80 of the Copyright Act)

      * it must be made into "an audio recording medium" (as defined in section 79... of the Copyright Act).

      I have read the Board Decision, and it is clear that it allows people private co
  • by MichaelCrawford ( 610140 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @10:03PM (#7741809) Homepage Journal
    From Links to Tens of Thousands of Legal Music Downloads [goingware.com]:

    You don't need to worry about getting sued by the Recording Industry Assocation of America [riaa.org] or arrested by the FBI if you download legal music. Many independent and unsigned musicians offer downloads of their music in hopes of attracting more fans. Here's some music from my friends The Divine Maggees [divinemaggees.com], Oliver Brown [kingturtle.com] and Rick Walker's Loop.pooL [looppool.info].

    If everyone started downloading legal music instead of violating copyright with the file sharing programs, we would make short work of the RIAA, because people would start buying CDs directly from the artists and seeing their shows instead of enriching the major labels by buying CDs from the bands the labels have chosen for us to listen to. The RIAA would also have no cause to complain - these music downloads do not infringe copyright because the artists give you permission to download them.

    Besides giving you lots of links to legal downloads, the article goes on to discuss how you can change the law [goingware.com] to make p2p filesharing of proprietary files legal. I think that could happen if I could get all sixty million US file traders to read the article in time for the November 2004 elections. So far the article is getting read by about 500 people a day [goingware.com], but it needs to be read a couple of orders of magnitude more often between now and November if it's going to effect the election. Please read What You Can Do To Help [goingware.com].

    Please copy and distribute this article. It has a Creative Commons license.

  • its ok (Score:2, Insightful)

    The Canadian Supreme Court will make up some law that does not exist so that the CRIA can get paid.
    • Not necessarily...

      In Canada supreme court officials are appointed by the goverment, similarily to the U.S.. The goverment is full of politicians, just like in the U.S.. Where things differ is that campaign contributions to politicians is capped, so CRIA and other lobby groups can't funnel millions of dollars of money into our politicians pockets. ("no strings attached" of course)

      Now, it is rather difficult to get rid of a supreme court official once appointed. However it is also true that, just like i
  • by Vic Metcalfe ( 355 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @10:06PM (#7741836) Homepage
    If I wrote a program that allowed users to put a CD into their CD-ROM drive and allow other users to rip a copy of that CD over the Internet, would that be legal? It looks to me like it might be.

    I'm very very tempted to write such a program. We pay the levy anyway, might as well take full advantage of it. I just don't want to loose my house, business, etc when I get sued.
    • "If I wrote a program that allowed users to put a CD into their CD-ROM drive and allow other users to rip a copy of that CD over the Internet, would that be legal? It looks to me like it might be."

      You are my HERO. Let me know [mailto] if you want some help or a PHP coder/scriptor/dbguy.
    • by xtal ( 49134 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @11:26PM (#7742328)
      What's to stop me from setting up a kiosk on my property (or with the permission of a landowner) with a batch of CDs and a CDR. It's cheap enough to do this I might just do it to make a point. I don't think anyone would steal the physical CDs, but you could always jukebox them.

      Under the current law, so long as I do not make any money, it is legal for someone to come up to this Kiosk and make all the copies they want. If this bullshit continues without the CDR levy being dropped, and my lawyer agrees with my interpretation of the law - I might just do this.

      How is this any different than uploading a ripped version of the CD anyway?
    • But fundamentally a lot less useful than Kazaa, seeing as though selection would be curtained to "contents of 1 audio CD" instead of the vast offering current P2P give.

      Still, not a bad theory to start with.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @10:08PM (#7741844)
    When my car is stolen, when my house is broken into the police says "sorry, no resources" to catch them...
    Should taxpayers really pay police, FBI, etc. for playing collection agent for the RIA?

    • When my car is stolen, when my house is broken into the police says "sorry, no resources" to catch them... Should taxpayers really pay police, FBI, etc. for playing collection agent for the RIA?

      Ha! You only voted to get your preferred political candidate into office. They paid. Guess who gets the silver service.

  • by grmb1 ( 732949 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @10:10PM (#7741863) Homepage
    BTW, in Russia downloading music is too expensive. Average home broadband bandwidth is around 0.1$/MB. However pirated CDs full of MP3s cost about 2$ and are on sale everywhere - flea market, regular shops (govt. doesn't give a fuck). The choice of MP3s is amazing - rarities, bootlegs, full discographies, etc....

    So, USA people, welcome to Russia!

    Hmm...could be a good idea for business... "Fuck RIAA, buy our exclusive 'Russia CD-Tour'.".
  • Fair enough... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by rokzy ( 687636 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @10:10PM (#7741864)
    ...IF THEY GET RID OF THE LEVY

    I thought the justification for the levy was to legitimise downloading mp3s? If they now want to get rid of that "service", where's the justification for the levy? Maybe they're trying to pull another scam like when CDs were new;

    1980s
    1. raise prices because of set-up costs
    2. forget to lower after making money back
    3. profit

    2000s
    1. raise prices because of mp3 traders
    2. forget to lower after putting traders in jail
    3. profit
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • "P2P downloading is legal under Canadian law."
    I knew I was Canadian for a reason! Time to go download Photoshop and all the mp3s I want. And in other news, I'm getting medicinal marijuana for my sleep apnea. I'm going to be happy as a pig in shit! I might even *think* I'm a pig in shit.
  • by rice_burners_suck ( 243660 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @10:26PM (#7741950)
    Hey, let's sue our fans!! What shall we do next?! Hey, I have another great idea: Every time someone buys blank CD media, they are immediately arrested and imprisoned for a period not less than 20 years in a maximum security prison for each blank CD, alongside murderers and rapists, whose crimes are certainly lesser than that of music piracy. After the 20 year per blank CD period, the person is released from prison and allowed to take their blank CD(s).

    This law would ignore the fact that blank CDs are used for mostly legitimate reasons, because piracy, being worse than murder or rape, should be handled under a no-fucking-around policy. And all books should be burned. And all people whose skin is not within 0.0000000000001% tolerance of a specific shade should be hung.

  • Subpeonas (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @10:26PM (#7741952)
    They won't be able to go after as many file swappers (per capita) as they have in the U.S. because Canadian law does not allow you to subpeona their ISPs without a warrant signed by a judge. We have no DMCA yet. Also, there is also no legal precedent a la RIAA vs Verizon to get the names of file swappers from ISPs.

    How does the Canadian RIAA plan to track down these uploaders without names, addresses and phone numbers from ISPs?

    Of course, once we sign on to the FTAA, we will be forced to ratify it and adopt the insane IP provisions of that "free trade" agreement, including jail terms for file swappers, making open source software outright illegal, and allowing corporations to copyright everything except 12 distinct processes (ex calendars). I'm really looking forward to the human genome being copyrighted and having to pay licensing fees for my very existance.

    I can't believe it! I'm *actually* planning on voting NDP in the next federal election, despite the fact that I'm a small "c" conservative. That would have been unthinkable for me as recently as two years ago. This fact that our government is whoreing us to virtually criminal organizations like the RIAA/MPAA and Microsoft makes me sick to my stomach.
  • Entrapment? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by NonaMyous ( 731004 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @10:26PM (#7741954)
    The only way to determine if a file on an uploader's system contains copyrighted material or not is to download the file and examine it. There's no copying and therefore no copyright infringement until the file downloaded.

    How does the CRIA prove copyright infringement without having been responsible for causing the infringement in the first place?
  • simple answers (Score:5, Insightful)

    by dirk ( 87083 ) <dirk@one.net> on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @10:33PM (#7741995) Homepage
    Everyone seems to be asking the wrong questions. The questions have nothing to do with if P2P copying helps or hurts music. The simple question is "Do these people have a legal right to distribute this music?" And the simple answer is "no". Just because you own a copy of something in no way gives you the right to distribute copies of it to other people. Owning a book doesn't give you the right to make copies of it and hand it out on the street. Owning a photograph (that someone else took) doesn't give you the right to make copies and hand them out. Owning a copy of Linux doesn't give you the right to distribute binary only copies of it. Owning a CD doesn't give you the right to distribute MP3 copies of the music. IT doesn't matter whether it helps or hurts CD sales, the fact is you have no right to do it. People have the right (and should have the right) to decide what happens to the things they create. IF you want to distribute music via P2P, feel free to create some and distribute it. You have every right to decide what happens with the music you make. Just as other people have the right to decide they don't want you giving away their music for free over P2P.
    • Re:simple answers (Score:3, Insightful)

      by NSash ( 711724 )
      The simple question is "Do these people have a legal right to distribute this music?" And the simple answer is "no". Just because you own a copy of something in no way gives you the right to distribute copies of it to other people.

      You would have been correct if you had just said "Does the legal system currently permit you to distribute this music?" Of course, that would also be completely empty. The law should be what is right; something doesn't become right by being law. The legal system is very flui
    • Re:simple answers (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Saeger ( 456549 ) <(farrellj) (at) (gmail.com)> on Wednesday December 17, 2003 @12:36AM (#7742663) Homepage
      People have the right (and should have the right) to decide what happens to the things they create.

      And that's where a lot of people, including "real" artists, disagree with you. They don't have a selfish control-freak mentality, or hold The Law up as holy scripture set in stone, but they still manage to make a nice living without trying to enforce artificial scarcity or restrict people from standing on their shoulders.

      The fact is that "intellectual property" is only something that can be owned as long as you NEVER let it out of its cage to infect other minds and culture. If it does get out, then the creation will only be respected in so far as society respects you and/or the old social contract (perpetual copyright).

      IMNSHO, progress won't slow one bit just because it's no longer possible to enforce artificial scarcity. [firstmonday.dk]

      "The economy of the future will be based on relationship rather than possession. It will be continuous rather than sequential." -- John Perry Barlow, co-founder of the EFF

      --

  • by Txiasaeia ( 581598 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @10:35PM (#7742006)
    On their web site here [www.cria.ca], they mention that they "know of [Canadian] users of file-sharing services who are individually uploading and distributing four and five thousand copyrighted songs to potentially tens of millions of people. This is indisputably an illegal practice." (Dec 5 2003)

    Perhaps this indicates a lower limit of who they will be targeting, people who have four thousand songs available to share? Yes? Maybe?

  • I will gladly pay for music if I knew that the middlemen (CRIA) didn't skim off all those dollars to pay for their annoying advertising campaigns. They collect recordable media levies and the artists see squat.

    The recording industry is a dinosaur in the post meteor strike world. Ample bandwidth on the internet makes distribution a breeze. Why pay for the fuel to truck CD's accross the country/seas/etc? If artists were to record their own music and distribute directly to the customers via the internet a
  • If you are Canadian and have a view on this (or anything else) then come and share it. I recently set up the website blogforcanada.com [blogforcanada.com] for just this purpose.

    Come and help put the people back in charge of our laws.

  • Who cares? (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    How many Canadian artists are there anyway? Five? And Celine Dion is selling perfume these days not music so that brings the number down to four.
  • iRATE radio [sourceforge.net] is a GPLed Java program with native binaries (compiled with gcj) for Windows and Linux, and a Java webstart installer that runs from the JRE that comes with Mac OS X. From iRATE's homepage:

    iRATE radio is a collaborative filtering client/server mp3 player/downloader. The iRATE server has a large database of music. You rate the tracks and it uses your ratings and other people's to guess what you'll like. The tracks are downloaded from websites which allow free and legal downloads of their music

  • We need new laws (Score:3, Interesting)

    by oystur ( 732441 ) on Tuesday December 16, 2003 @11:35PM (#7742384)
    When a business is reduced to suing customers you know you've hit a dead end. The music industry needs to issue licenses to file sharers and if they won't then we need to change the law. There is power in numbers and Click the Vote [clickthevote.org] is organizing a grassroots movement to achieve just that.

  • If this was a Ricci Lake forum, the title of this article would probably be "How to turn your RIA from a CRIA into a tryer!"
  • Philosophy (Score:2, Interesting)

    by AvengerXP ( 660081 )
    Uploading, downloading, borrowing, distributing. All these are definable and open to interpretation. The philosophical repercussions are great but whether you like it or not, the bottom line decision will be because of a single character, a byte if you will.

    '$'.

    And that decision is : "Sue everyone, make cash, everyone's a pirate, screw personal rights".

    In the long run, fair use and personal private copies and yadayadayada will not mean anything because of the said character.
  • by rcpitt ( 711863 ) on Wednesday December 17, 2003 @12:06AM (#7742529) Homepage Journal
    The Canadian government has already shown that when the law puts a significant percentage of the population in the position of being an un-caught felon, it recognizes that they have voted for change with their actions and moves to do something to remedy the situation.

    Sometimes there are external (to Canada) influences that clog up the works and slow things down. Other times they do something that demonstrates the "law of unintended consequences" quite nicely ;)

    We have pretty much recognized gay marriage

    We are working on de-criminalizing (note: not legalizing) pot (much to the consternation of the US DEA - one of those external influences we get)

    We recognized that "private copying" was a fact and was not likely to go away - so came up with the Blank Media Levy [pacdat.net] which might actually be a reasonable solution if the Copyright Board continues to show restraint

    I make no guess as to what our dear government will do about "uploading" if anything; but they might.

    In the mean time it should be noted that most of the large retailers selling music have lowered the prices significantly (the small retailers are being frozen out by the distributors and not getting the discounts "because they don't buy enough copies..." - a rant for another time). It remains to be seen if the number of units goes up. I expect it will - even though the total dollars may go down or stay even - and that is the point!

    The dollars spent on music will likely stay even or maybe decline a bit - but this is not due to downloading, private copying, or whatever - it is due to external forces in action.

    For example - the chocolate bar industry noted a decline in sales during the late 90s and early 2000s - and found that the reason was that their prime targets/customers (the teenagers) were using their disposable income to purchase cell-phone cards for text messaging and phone calls - leaving less to spend on chocolate.

    Another influence - the music industry has released less music in recent years than they did previously - there is less to choose from and people are resisting (by downloading - "I've paid for 14 songs but only like 2 on this CD so I'll download another 12 to make up for it" maybe not done consiously - but it makes them feel better). The music publishers have also "perfected" the art of slicing and dicing the repetoir to force (or at least try to force) their target audience to pay for multiple CDs in order to get all the music they want, one or two songs per CD at a time - along with lots of crap put out as filler. I've suggested (to the Copyright Board) that this is in fact "tied selling" and should be viewed as a negative in adjusting the rate for the music levy - derating the "average" earnings per song in the calculation - they didn't bite this time but...

    We've also had a bit of an economic turn-down recently too - but of course during such times people will always choose music over food won't they? ;)

    The music distribution system is headed for a collapse - with the publishing companies and the industry associations losing out. Problem is that they don't want to lose their profit and influence so are fighting hard to lobby the governments to keep them around. This is what we have to fight. The continuation of an inefficient distribution system in the face of a complete paradigm change and disruptive technologies. It is the job of government to do what the population as a whole needs done in order to survive economically (and other ways but...) and if this means allowing one particular segment of an old industry to founder (the publishers) to the benefit of another segment (the artists) while keeping the general population from being all put in jail or saddled with onerous civil penalties for doing what "everyone is doing" then so be it - that's what we pay them the big bucks for.

    There is no guarantee to any business that they will survive doing the sam

    • Its also worth pointing out that (as Slashdot posted many moons ago), the Canadian Copyright Board actually put out a public request for comments about this type of legislation and action.

      They wanted to know what *we* thought about DMCA-like regulations in Canada, *we* including consumers and producers.

      Reading the list of responses (I don't see it offhand, but someone please post the link), its interesting to see the perspectives of many of the artists / producers (who've never seen a cent from that blank
  • I've thought about this issue, since I've seen this coming to Canada for some time. It seems to me one good way of making sure the private copying provisions of the Canadian Copyright Act do apply to P2P is by making sure that your p2p software "lends" a portion of your harddrive to the other user.

    The case against p2p in Canada is based on the premise that private copying provision only applies to a person making a copy for their own use. A person cannot make a copy for someone else. The questions becomes:

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