IronPort Arms Both Sides In Spam War 216
securitas writes "We all know about IronPort's recent acquisition of SpamCop. What may not be common knowledge is that IronPort's Senderbase has 'the reputation as the fastest way to send millions of junk e-mail messages' and is popular with spam factories. Founded by two former Microsoft executives - Hotmail's Scott Weiss and ListBot founder Scott Banister - IronPort claims its customers are not spammers but legitimate marketers. Critics say that this is a clear conflict of interest. Playing spam from both sides might be likened to a pharmaceutical company enabling the spread of a disease in order to sell the cure. SpamCop founder Julian Haight - who had to sell the company in order to remain solvent - is quoted as saying of IronPort's anti-spam measures: "I am not sure all its standards are tough enough." The story was originally reported by the New York Times' Saul Hansell. Abbreviated mirror at IHT."
But after their extensive training ... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:But after their extensive training ... (Score:4, Interesting)
Actually the article leads me to believe that these guys are not MS-bred.
MS-bred?!? (Score:5, Funny)
Everyone in the Microsoft thrall volunteered. Weiss and Banister signed their names in blood to Microsoft contracts. At some point, Dark Lord Ballmer will come with the Blue Screen of Death and collect from them. That is the way of things, at least until Frodo Torvald is able to throw the closed-source ring of power back into Mount Redmond where is was forged ...wait, it's time for my medicine again, isn't it?
The SC decided against all voters (Score:2)
Rules concerning vote count disputes for elections, either state or federal, are states rights concerns. The SC had no standing to overrule the Florida Supreme Court. They had no right to disenfranchise the entire state like that.
The last time there was a disputed election like this was
Re:But after their extensive training ... (Score:2)
Re:But after their extensive training ... (Score:2)
Ba' dum' ching!
Well now (Score:1, Interesting)
And IronPort's response? "Obviously his business sense was not strong enough, or he wouldn't have solvency issues."
Conspiracy. (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes, I know a lot of what I write makes it sound like my tinfoil hat is loose but hear me out:
IronPort buys SpamCop
Worms hammer anti-spam sites [slashdot.org]
Because IronPort is now "spammer friendly", SpamCop doesn't suffer these DDoS attacks.
SpamCop's for-fee competition and free lists are ran off the net by IronPort supporters.
Not suprisingly, IronPort's products don't block mail from their customers.
IronPort and it's spammer customers profit.
Re:Conspiracy. (Score:2)
The Analogy (Score:4, Insightful)
Real world examples? (Score:1, Insightful)
1)The telephone companies sell Caller ID *and* CallerID-block.
2) Supermarkets sell SlimFast AND chocolate doughnuts. Mmmmmm. Doughnuts.
More examples, anyone?
Re:Real world examples? (Score:2)
However, in both your examples, the store/seller can exist without both of these services, they are just "sugar" for their cashflow. In the case of IronPort, if their cashflow is *only* spam and anti-spam, when the market disappears, they're
Re:The Analogy (Score:5, Interesting)
Despicable is right.
IMHO, spam is spam whether it's from a legitimate marketer or not - unless I have indicated that I wish to receive information (special offers, order status, terms of service updates) from the sender, whether they're selling books, parts, or e-transaction services.
I also concede that there is a minor loophole, inasmuch as companies with whom I hold an account (e.g. eBay UK, PayPal, Amazon.co.uk) should be free to send certain important mails relating to things like my membership status, or any important and major changes to their ToS.
However, since they're not the sort of companies I'd expect to go through spam houses, I'd understand that if they did contact me without my consent, they'd have a pretty darn good reason.
How long til some IronPort customer dies from popping bootleg Viagra, or is fleeced out of his savings by a bunch of Nigerians pulling a 419? Some of those people will be clueless, and will think that because it's come through the spam filter, it must be legitimate...
Jailarity ensu-- no, wait, that would be for a Fark story :-P
Re:The Analogy (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:The Analogy (Score:2, Interesting)
Despite the fact that we now often see certain anti-spam products being promoted in, of all things, spam, I'd like to believe that most anti-spam offerings are honestly interested in reducing spam for their customers.
We offer an anti-spam service which has been very, v
Truth stranger than analogy (Score:2, Interesting)
Actually, pharmaceutical companies do create'diseases' [bmjjournals.com] to sell more of their products.
Isn't corporate capitalism wonderful?
Re:The Analogy (Score:5, Insightful)
This is not like releasing a disease, and then releasing a cure. It's like creating a drug, seeing that it's commonly abused, and then using your abilities to help curb this abuse. Drug companies do this all the time. Sure, they make a little money off of it. But it's not the grand conspiracy you're trying to make it out to be.
Think of it, man. Ford Motor Company makes Mustangs that go fast. They make Crown Vics that go faster. That way, when people make the Mustangs go WAY too fast, the cops have a way to catch them. Does this mean that Ford has a conflict of interest that prevents them from selling slower cars to the police...that they're purposefully pushing these fast cars to push sales of their cop cars?
Or does it mean that they're a company that's specialized in cars, and that they therefore try to make cars that fulfill the needs of specific people, including people who like to go fast and the guys tasked to catch them?
Re:The Analogy (Score:2)
Increasing the beaurocracy behind email -- which is what "securing" email wi
Obligitory "Dinosaurs" quote: (Score:2, Redundant)
It has to be said... (Score:4, Funny)
A wolf in the flock (Score:4, Insightful)
Arming the wolf with the shepherd's crook? More like giving him an M-249.
Re:A wolf in the flock (Score:2)
Re:A wolf in the flock (Score:2, Insightful)
-=Julian=-
Prior Act .. (Score:5, Interesting)
Playing spam from both sides might be likened to a pharmaceutical company enabling the spread of a disease in order to sell the cure.
Or it could be compared to Chaplin's film The Kid [classicvideo.ch] :
The Tramp rescues a baby abandoned by its despairing mother, brings it up to become his partner in a window-repair business - although it is the Kid's business to break the windows first
Re:Prior Act .. (Score:2, Funny)
Glad to see the Roman fire brigade still alive and well, and doing business...
Re:Prior Act .. (Score:2)
or it's like virus scanner companies that write viruses or drug companies that create drug treatments but not cures.
Lawyers (Score:2)
This reminds me of an oldish but interesting discussion I had about lawyers and representing yourself in court (pro se).
If some guy uses a lawyer on you, you may also need a lawyer, in a way having a lawyer take care of the problems another lawyer made. (Members of one "guild" making work for each other.) This only applies to borderline barratry and frivoulous suits against t
Question... (Score:4, Funny)
Will they use their spam mailer expertise to make better anti-spam products, or use their anti-spam expertise to make better spam emailer products?
Why do I think I know the answer aleady.....
Re:Question... (Score:2)
You do know the answer already (Score:2)
It could be good (Score:2, Informative)
"All your SenderBase are belong to us."
I'll say it again... (Score:5, Insightful)
I said this before and I'll say it again...
There is a huge incentive for IronPort to stay on the legitimate side of things. Spamcop rocks (thanks Julian!) - but only because of the constant vigilance of the many users who report instances of spam. This is a human-based review system of millions of junk messages... without the users, there is no Spamcop, and Ironport bought nothing. They can't afford to risk being the bad guy here or they risk losing the reviewers !
Re:I'll say it again... (Score:2)
Not Flamebait.
We've seen an example of a national leader citing poorly substantiat
Re:I'll say it again... (Score:2)
All conspiracies aside, the people who use spamcop (look at my *unobfuscated* email addy) are typically rabid anti-spammers... check out the newsgroups under spamcop.net [spamcop.net] !
Any hint of impropriety and these helpers are gone...
Re:I'll say it again... (Score:2)
Re:I'll say it again... (Score:3, Interesting)
This is a human-based review system of millions of junk messages... without the users, there is no Spamcop, and Ironport bought nothing.
They didn't buy nothing, they bought the death of Spamcop. If IronPort really is dependent upon spammers, then such a buyout makes a lot of sense from a business standpoint.
If this turns out to be the case, you can thank Julian again, for selling out the constant vigilance of many users to the highest bidder.
Re:I'll say it again... (Score:2)
I don't think that's the case, but if it is, then I sincerely hope that Julian didn't sign any NDA/compete clauses - he could just start the whole thing over from scratch !
Re:I'll say it again... (Score:2)
How is this different from Microsoft buying out some small business to acquire their technology?
Re:I'll say it again... (Score:3, Interesting)
I've been a Spamcop user for years (see above unobfuscated email) and participated in or have read the associated newsgroups (where the fun really is) for as long. The system just doesn't work unless the 'users' are reporting Spam regularly and in a timely manner (hours, not days). These people are rabid anti-spam and would scream bloody murder if there was a site under IronPort that was spamming and it wasn't being handled.
My optimisim comes from the absence of those screams since June when the deal w
Re:I'll say it again... (Score:2, Informative)
The personalization stuff is basically the ability to give, say, 1000 email addresses and a message, and also some macro values (first name, last name, etc,) for each address. If the MTA connects successfully, it rewrites the message on the fly for delivery. The big upshot here is that you don't need to submit each i
Re:I'll say it again... (Score:3, Informative)
It's configuration of spamassassin isn't very good IMHO.
Quite a bit of spam still gets through.
I've seen much better implimentations of spamassassin elsewhere. And no, they're not just one off site specific implimentations.
I'm sorry if I've dissed Julian - I'm not sure who's responsible for the technical setup.
Spamcop used to be incredible. The last couple of years hasn't been so hot.
Frankly, I'd recommend other filtering options. (Like getting your webhosting/email from totalchoi
Re:I'll say it again... (Score:2)
Good point... but Spamcop does pull in a few bucks (not enough to build an entire secure infrastructure I suppose). I hope Julian didn't sign a non-compete or anything, he could always re-create Spamcop from scratch again !!! (if IronPort goes to the Dark Side)
better analogy (Score:2, Interesting)
Julian Haight's comments not about SpamCop (Score:3, Informative)
His comment was about Bonded Sender [bondedsender.com], not SpamCop [spamcop.net].
Re:Julian Haight's comments not about SpamCop (Score:3, Insightful)
IronPort isn't "buying", they bought SpamCop back in June [google.com].
Bonded Sender is a product totally distinct from SpamCop.
The poster's comments (which could be you AC), doesn't make it clear that Mr. Haight's comments are specifically and only about the separate Bonded Sender concept/product. The comment was not about SpamCop.
That's why I posted. The comment isn't directed towards SpamCop. Julian Haight still runs it. The registry is still fed by regular users. I'm try to help clear up the FUD towards SpamCop
spreading the disease to build demand for cure... (Score:1)
Right...?
Helpdesk employees? (Score:4, Funny)
Hotmail helpdesk #2: Ya, I bet someone could make a killing off an anti-spam service.
Hotmail helpdesk #1: Sure, but spammers are legitimate marketers too.
Hotmail helpdesk #2: Dude I know, their just trying to get their message out.
.
.
2000 - IronPort founded
.
Definition of Spam (Score:2)
But if that happened, what would happen to /.?
Re:Definition of Spam (Score:2)
Ah, capitalism (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Ah, capitalism (Score:2)
This reminds me of a certain episode ... (Score:4, Funny)
BRAIN: The same thing we do every night,Pinky!
Try to take over the world!
{Pinky and the Brain theme}
BRAIN: Email messages, Pinky, is our new tool! We will take over computers with trojan horses, send spam from there, and then we will sell everyone Anti-Spam... for what it's worth !
PINKY: What if they don't buy your anti-Spam, Brain?
BRAIN: Even better ! We will scare the people off the internet, leaving their connected PCs behind! This in turn will give us more hosts from which to send Spam. We will then have taken over the world!
PINKY: Egad, Brain, Brilliant! Oh, oh, wait, no, no -- why would they be scared of us? We're so small, um, we're practically the size of mice, Brain!
BRAIN: We *are* mice, Pinky.
PINKY: Oh, right. Well, there you are then. Nya-ha-ha!
change in spamcop reporting (Score:4, Interesting)
In he last few days, when you process your spamcop response, I have noticed that instead of sending the notices to the usual "abuse@comcast.net" it is simply
I was wondering about this.
Has anyone else noticed funny things going on in SpamCop?
Re:change in spamcop reporting (Score:2)
Yes, their RBL server, bl.spamcop.net, can't be found since Monday for me and many other people.
There have been some posts on the mailing lists about it, but no real responses.
Why /dev/null (Score:2)
Re:change in spamcop reporting (Score:2)
The fact that they are listing on the DDOS list for the MiMail.L Virus [sarc.com] might have taken their servers offline.
SPAMcop (Score:4, Insightful)
I see this as a single-minded business. SPAMcop wants to remove spammers by hunting down the true origins of mail it is told are illegitimate, or through filters. OTOH, it is owned by a company that teaches and sells mass-marketing schemes. This mass-marketer has competition, and thats exactly what SPAMcop will be going after. Bingo! You have a great model to improve your scores by showing actual tallies of improved responses from people using your lists or methods.
However, there will be an easy way to detect this: If the companies that are sending the spam are ignored by SPAMcop and also part of their enterprise, we have the feared result. At the moment, I haven't seen any evidence of this posted anywhere. But I'm only one person.
mug
Or like... (Score:5, Insightful)
I think big business is starting to learn what step 2 is, and it's kind of frightening.
- Create inconvinience/problems.
- Sell products which eleminate the problem.
- Profit!
What a shame the tech industry is becomming.Re:Or like... (Score:2)
> inconvinience
> becomming
Are you going to sell spell checkers as point #2 then?
Re:Or like... (Score:2)
...purhaps
Playing Both Sides? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Playing Both Sides? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Playing Both Sides? (Score:2)
Legitimate blah blah (Score:4, Insightful)
To me, any marketing related mail is spam. Another user may want to be marketed things that he is interested in, but not me, and I suspect the same of most users of any type of anti-spam solution.
Not always... (Score:3, Insightful)
Ironport's website mentions transaction confirmations [ironport.com] as one of the uses, and that is certainly legit... when I order stuff online, I like to get an email confirming it, telling me it's been shipped, ect.
There are legitimate advertising emails. I buy alot of electronics, so I regularly get emails from companies I've bought stuff from in the past, and I'm glad I have - they have alerted me to some good sales.
To me, there is a huge difference from me getting an email from Compgeeks, TigerDirect, eCost, o
Don't blame the technology (Score:5, Insightful)
When it's something like file sharing, everybody's keen to jump on the "don't blame the technology" bandwagon. After all, file sharing can be used legitimately, right?
How is this any different? There are legitimate needs to send bulk mail aren't there? It's not only used by spammers is it?
The only difference I can see is that spam is something techies collectively hate, and copyright is something a lot of people are ambivelant about. Let's be fair and apply the same standards! Arguments don't stand or fall based upon whether we like the people involved.
Re:Don't blame the technology (Score:2)
Krupp Arms (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Krupp Arms (Score:2)
Re:Krupp Arms (Score:2)
Ethics. Never heard of it ... (Score:3, Insightful)
The only thing I'm happy about is that even Bill Gates will eventually die, just like the poorest Afghani. There is some comfort in that. Nobody lasts for ever.
But if there is an after-life, I hope he has to use his own products to run a support-site for his own products for the rest of eternity.
I blame Scott Adams... (Score:3, Funny)
http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilb ert-20031129.html
And good God, he's an AOL user!
Re:I blame Scott Adams... (Score:4, Funny)
Bad analogy (Score:2)
Playing spam from both sides might be likened to a pharmaceutical company enabling the spread of a disease in order to sell the cure.
Ironbase makes a computer that can be used to send lots of spam. They certainly don't "enable the spread of" spam.
It would be more like if the creator of Kazaa sold software to catch copyright infringers, and claimed that Kazaa users are not copyright infringers but legitimate downloaders of legally distributable indie music.
Sounds familiar (Score:4, Informative)
And, as they say, hilarity ensues...
And..spamcop has my email.... (Score:2, Funny)
Would they? Could they?...give their collected mail addresses to their 'partners'/'customers'?
10 Send report of spam to spamcop
20 spam cop 'parters' spam you
30 goto 10
Write to Them (Score:2)
I just found out that somebody I used to work with is there now, and that's what I'm going to do.
(Yes, I do still have friends.)
Re:Write to Them (Score:3, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:4, Informative)
IronPort's not just for SPAM (Score:4, Informative)
Re:IronPort's not just for SPAM (Score:2)
One little known fact is.. (Score:2)
Don't know if they still do it but this was established last century.
Alternatives (Score:2)
So I should start looking for a new email address (Score:2)
Open proxies (Score:3, Interesting)
And lets not forget proper uses for the box. I sure would like an appliance box for handling the daily newsletters and etc. Sure it's fun to sit and tweak Postfix on a Linux box but if you were to setup a new system it might not be cheaper to build an entire system yourself, with the tuning, tweaking and scriptwriting, and the following maintainance like updates fixes etc.
senderbase (Score:3, Insightful)
Senderbase.org [senderbase.org] is an invaluable site for fighting spam, not a way to send junk email; it is a scourge for spam factories.
Larry
Senderbase is not a spam tool... (Score:2, Insightful)
It's a database [senderbase.org] that identifies high-volume email sources. So you could say Senderbase is pretty much neutral.
These are also the people who came up with Bonded Sender [bondedsender.com] - a whitelist with an economic incentive to keep senders honest. So they're hardly new to the anti-spam world.
The controversy seems to be over IronPort's hardware: they sell mail servers. Big friggin' whoop.
Cincinnati Microwave (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm Sorry (Score:2)
Spamcop doomed - need alternative (Score:2)
SpamCop owned by IronPort can't be anything like SpamCop is now. All the real work on SpamCop is done by volunteers. Nobody is going to volunteer their time for IronPort.
Some Clarifications from Julian (Score:5, Interesting)
First of all, I was not *forced* to sell SpamCop to remain solvent. I am proud of the fact that I have been profitable since 1999. If anything, this deal makes SpamCop a charity case within Ironport. I still get paid of course
The NYT article quotes me as saying (referring back to my dead-tree version): "After a while, I found that this had become a job, and I had to find a way to make money from it". That quote was taken out of context - I was referring to my 1999 decision to take SpamCop commercial, not my 2003 decision to sell the *profitable* company to ironport.
It is true that the akamai bill is not cheap. But I think I would have survived the same way I have always done without selling the business. And that leads to my next point - I'm not cashing out. I will be with the company for the forseeable future, doing what I have always done - fighting spam! I sold it to ironport because I felt they would support my goals. They offered me a nice lump of cash, help with the non-spam-fighting part of the job (sysadmin, administrivia, lawyering, DDoS protection, etc.) and most important, a credible promise to let me keep it on-track.
The very fact that I am here talking about this, and expressing my doubts about bonded sender to the NYT should indicate that I'm not just rolling over here.
I don't control the bonded sender program and likewise the people who control it won't be calling the shots where SpamCop is concerned.
Oh, and BTW, I know ironport boxes are good for spamming. They're also good for sending (and also receiving) tons of legitimate mail. Noone with ironport has ever claimed that "our customers aren't spammers". Some might claim our *bonded sender members* aren't spammers, but that's a whole other kettle of fish.
Are we arming both sides? Sure! But as with all arms dealers, the real point is that we make the best weapons on the market! Don't like spam from ironport customers? Use the spamcop blacklist! If this were really some big conspiracy, would spamazon's IP be in both the spamcop blacklist and the ironport whitelist?
$ host 207.171.188.101
101.188.171.207.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer mm-outgoing-101.amazon.com.
$ host 101.188.171.207.query.bondedsender.org
101.188.1
$ host 101.188.171.207.bl.spamcop.net
101.188.171.207.b
(Note, the blacklist changes quickly over time, it was listed when I wrote this)
-=Julian "10 hot comments" Haight=-
Re:Some Clarifications from Julian (Score:2)
Sorry to ruin your evening by submitting the post!
Seriously, have you spoken with the reporter about this? If it's any consolation I think I fairly summarized the article.
Re:Some Clarifications from Julian (Score:2)
Thanks for a great service, and know that your user base (at least, this particular user within it) appreciates you doing whatever it takes to uphold your high standards.
Sure, the sp
Amazon (Score:2)
Playing both sides against the middle (Score:2, Informative)
I don't see a problem (Score:2)
This makes sense... (Score:2)
It's probably good for Spamcop users, and bad for the rest of the world. As a Spamcop user, I intend not to renew my subscription next time around.
What's the big deal (Score:1, Funny)
What is the big deal when someone from down the hall always keeps sneaking into my office when I am away and taking a dump in my chair. I just wipe it up and go on. Jeez.
Re:nothing really wrong here (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:nothing really wrong here (Score:2)
If there was suddenly a new miracle fuel, what do you think would happen to the oil companies? They might not collapse but they will certainly not make as much money as they do now.
Furthermore, IIRC, research into the use of ethanol and other fuel alternatives had their government