Dell To Techs: Don't Help Customers Remove Spyware 1013
Alien54 writes "Well, more exactly, be advised that if you are giving a Dell for Xmas, not only will it probably come preloaded with spyware, but their tech support lines will refuse to tell users how to remove it, and will not give people advice on where to find some good tools to remove it. As seen in the latest newsletter from SpyWareInfo, Dell sent an internal memo to its tech support minions which says in part: 'NOTICE: Use of spyware removal software may conflict with user license agreements of other applications installed on your system. Please consult your user license agreements for further information. Dell does not endorse the use of spyware removal software and cannot provide support on these products.' This means we do not take callers to download.com or doxdesk.com, nor do we recommend spyware removal programs, nor do we advise callers on the use of spyware removal programs. This includes using phrases "We don't support the removal of spyware, but I use..."'" (Read on below.Update: 12/03 06:36 GMT by T : And for an update, too.)
"Now isn't that just nifty. Several folks in the antispyware/antivirus community have signed an open letter to Dell Inc. asking them to retract this possibly foolish and misguided policy. That letter is located at here." Update: 12/03 06:36 GMT Mike Healan, editor of spywareinfo.com, writes "The original posting is misleading.
Dell is absolutely not installing or preinstalling spyware and the
headline gives the impression that it is."
Nasty (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Nasty (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Nasty (Score:5, Interesting)
Even on the hardware? Is that legal?
Re:Nasty (Score:5, Interesting)
She calls Dell and asks them. The first thing they ask is "have you installed any software on it"? Not seeing a contractual getout coming she told them she'd installed her Mortgage Broking software (for that is her job) only to be told that as she's put software on that didn't come from them it would cost her 15 an answer.
Now I can see that they don't want to answer questions along the lines of "I put this obscure bit of freeware on and now it won't start" but for christ's sake, bundling a package that requires regedit to set the page size to the correct one for her country and then charging her to sort it out is shitwit behaviour of the worst order.
After this I won't use the likes of Dell, Gateway, etc., and go for small/medium independant suppliers or build it myself as you can at least get support from the same person who tends to remember you.
Re:Nasty (Score:5, Interesting)
For those who have never worked in a call center, there is one core stat used to evaluate workers: call volume. The more calls you answer, the more they pay you. The phone switches allow this stat to be measured easily. There is the expectation that customers will be satisfied, policies will be followed, etc. but it's practically impossible to measure or verify this.
Your conclusion still follows - if you can buy locally from someone who can support you, do so. It doesn't matter if you're being screwed by a technician (who disobeys policy) or by his corporate masters (who implement poor policy) - you're still screwed if you buy nationally.
Re:Nasty (Score:5, Informative)
I found that being in tech support which only used call time and volume as metrics resulted in a two very specific kinds of persons being "bred" to thrive in such an environment: Clever, stinking little boggies (see Bored of the Rings) whose main goal is to find the most amazing way to turn a typical "real support" issue into a support boundary call (i.e. assholes), and clueless script readers who offer absolutely no help other than what they can read and have customers hang up on them. The "good" techs end up becoming disgusted, jaded, and quit or are fired for not meeting metrics.
Re:Nasty (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, is there any reason why the clueless folks shouldn't just use apple? Isn't it still more user friendly? Isn't it reliable, with a good warantee?
Sure, the $1,000 PC is more "powerful" than the $1,000 Apple, but which one do you think will work flawlessly for the next five years?
I don't have an apple, because I'm a poor college student. Also, they don't have ProE or Solidworks on apple, so I doubt I'll be getting one soon. Or maybe I will, just for home stuff so I won't take work home with me. Who knows?
Re:Nasty (Score:5, Insightful)
For the next 3 years, my neighbor/friend would ask me every month or so why they can't run all of the software that was on sale at the computer store.
I tried to tell them that well, the computer was easier to use, and all that.
They just wanted to run the copy of Freddy Fish that grandma bought for the kids.
Honestly, that was the last time I recommended a computer to someone like that.
Re:Nasty (Score:5, Funny)
They can. [microsoft.com]
Re:Nasty (Score:4, Interesting)
Apparently unlike everyone else replying to this, I did buy my mom a Mac.
Her requirements were problems: Microsoft Money, had an HP printer/fax/copier that didn't have OS X drivers, as well as some other misc. software
However, running Win2K at the time on a PC, she was having the constant security updates, virus problems, and of course spyware (Gator was rampant on her machine).
I just explained that not everything she had on the PC would work on the Mac, and she might have to rebuy some of her software or convert to a different package. In return for helping buy her the computer, she agreed to do that.
HP released an official driver a few months after her G4 arrived, and in the mean time, I let her borrow my old DeskJet.
That was 3 years ago, and she's never been happier with her Mac. She's had one problem with a faulty modem (a simple return to an Apple store had it fixed in an hour), otherwise it's been problem free, and I've had more free time to work on other things than my mom's computer problems.
You could copy and paste that story with my mother-in-law as well...
Dell is not bundling spyware : From SWI's Editor (Score:5, Informative)
FYI, you don't know how beautiful a feeling it is to have your site on the front page of Slashdot, AND have mod points at the same time. I was soooooo tempted......
Mike Healan
Editor
www.spywareinfo.com
Yeah, look at timothy's update... (Score:5, Interesting)
Most reputable places would update the headline or the beginning of the summary at the least. They're basically accusing Dell of something we hate that they in fact don't do.
Re:Dell is not bundling spyware : From SWI's Edito (Score:4, Funny)
I think it was pretty obvious that Alien54 was just being cynical and stupid when he said "not only will [your Dell] probably come preloaded with spyware..." And that comment tainted the whole article. It's the Slashdot editor's job to avoid that, but I guess Slashdot doesn't care too much about accuracy.
Re:Build one for them.... (Score:5, Insightful)
For people I really don't care for, I tell them to get a Dell or something.
Its too much hassle dealing with issues with puters brought on by the downloading various crapware.
Re:Build one for them.... (Score:5, Interesting)
I've got ALL of 'em trained to fork it over when I come around and bail them out. Barter is my favorite, but cash will do just fine, thank you.
From my own (warped) perspective, this is good news. Crapware removal is my bread and butter. It's excellent from a 'repeat business' point of view, also. I clean their machine, give 'em a stern lecture, and then find myself coming back to repeat the process. Nice to see that Dell has taken such a kindly interest in my financial well-being.
Re:Build one for them.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Screw 'em -- they can figure it out themselves or deal with the helpless desk with whomever they are buying the box from.
Re:Build one for them.... (Score:5, Informative)
It's very simple, really. They have to pay my fee. It usually involves dinner (good food, what my dearly departed Great Depression-survivor grandma used to call "Reagan food,") gas money, and, in the case of my attorney friend whose machine I built for him, free legal advice. Absent those things, well, sorry, I just don't know anything about that problem.
Re:Build one for them.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Build one for them.... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's been the same pain ever since IBM started the modular approach and hardware manufacturers take creative license with the "standards". Naturally it doesn't help when most people run an operating system that is notoriously buggy and insecure.
If they (computer clueless friends & family) already have x86 buy or burn em a mandrake 9.2 set and tell them its either that or the highway. And if they don't have a computer or think of upgrading for gods sake get them to fork out the extra cash for a mac; you and they so won't regret it. Btw they can get a really sweet & speedy ibook G4 laptop for less than $1000.
Re:Build one for them.... (Score:4, Interesting)
Seconded (Score:5, Insightful)
Definitely seconded. Most people who don't or haven't worked in tech support don't get this. I've actually had only mild aquaintances actually ring up for computer help - the moment I got in from work. I've even had one person ring up with a problem with getting pictures from a mobile phone they bought that day. Hello? Try calling the people you bought it from, dammit!
Would you ring up a solicitor out of the blue, only knowing someone who knows them, expecting free legal advice? I think not. And don't even get me started on people not even reading what's on the damn screen on front of them. Once word gets out that you know about PCs, people will start ringing, or trying to collar you to talk about PCs etc. People may label you mean for putting your foot down, but it's your free time they're wasting. (rant mode off).
Re:Seconded (Score:5, Funny)
Fortunately he's an intelligent fellow and we had a good laugh about it after I explained to him that he was doing the same.
Re:Seconded (Score:5, Insightful)
And I'm not accusing you of this, Channard, but holy shit! There are a lot of whiny people on here! "I refuse to do tech support for family". I don't know what kind of relationship you have with YOUR family, but most of mine is pretty cool, and they do a lot for me. The least I can do to repay them for helping me get through college and allowing me to live while growing up is give them a little help with their computers. I do helpdesk troubleshooting for DSL, and I get yelled at half the time, but I can still manage to go home and answer a few questions about why windows 98 is a piece of garbage for my family. It's almost refreshing in fact. No corporate rules about what not to say in front of the family.
I wonder if the people who said they would assist family would even help their own mothers. I'm not saying you have to be the end-all of tech support. You can refer them to the OEM.
Reading this thread, you'd think these slashdotters hated computers or something.
Re:Build one for them.... (Score:5, Insightful)
I've yet to find a replacement however. Currently I buy from wallmart (lindows PCs $200) and recently from Envision (link?) and in both cases I do the software build myself (I have a nice sys'd ghost of a standard office computer).
If anyone has recommendations on good, low to medium end PC vendors that include nice software builds (windows I'm afraid) please post here!
Re:Build one for them.... (Score:4, Funny)
If you think that's bad, you should check out the Linux kernel source sometime. Not only is it full of adds, but bit-shifting and bit masks too!
Such abuse of arithmetic logic in an OS is not to be tolerated.
Re:Build one for them.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Bah - get the machine out of the box (I buy Dells) and turn it on to see if everything works. Download the drivers for all the hardware from their support site, burn them to CD, repartition the drive so the primary drive is about 4G smaller and add a secondary partition of that 4G, format the drives (format the D: drive as FAT32) and reinstall the OS onto the C: drive.
Once the clean OS is installed with the drivers you burned onto CD, do a Microsoft Update to get the latest updates from Microsoft. Install your favorite anti-virus (McAfee with the web install / updates is a good idea, cost +/- $30 a year), WinZip, Adobe, Office or whatever came with the box, any toys you think they are going to need and know do not have spyware. Add their users and passwords.
Reboot the machine using the boot CD you made, and make a (Ghost / Drive Image / whatever) of the nicely configured C: drive onto the D: drive, splitting the files into 680M sized chunks if the box has a CD burner, or 2G sized chunks if it has a DVD burner. Reboot the machine, burn those to CDs or DVDs and make two copies, one for you, one for them. Burn the app you used to make them onto the media also, and make it bootable.
Voila! Takes a few hours but from then on when (not if) they hose it up you simply walk them through restoring that image - if you are nice and if their machine is limping along well enough you can walk them through backing up their documents first.
Re:Nasty (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Nasty (Score:5, Interesting)
Let see i recall the time that i had a dead *clicking* harddrive and the tech wanted me to boot to a dos floppy to attempt to access the NTFS formatted hard drive. All of these things i made him aware of. i left the receiver on the clicking drive for 5 minutes while i wasted time making up the dos floppy he requested. this is but one of a number of unpleasant and unproductive support calls to dell.
So now i have 3 reasons. 1) stupid support 2) OEMed DMCA abuse, and 3) factory installed spyware.
another reason not to buy dell: fire hazard (Score:5, Insightful)
I've had a mixed record with laptops from Dell. One laptop's screen failed last year after about three months of use (and they did replace it). But try getting a wireless minipci card if you didn't get it with a new system. They shuffled me between three departments on the phone, taking about two hours to decide that they finally found the right part number, but it's out of stock. So...helpful. Yeah....
So if you want a company that'll sell you maliciously nonstandard hardware, and keeps a model in stock for about 15 minutes, then Dell's for you...
Re:another reason not to buy dell: fire hazard (Score:5, Informative)
Amen! I'd like to kick the ass of whoever thought of the nonstandard power supply pinout on Dell and other big cheapass OEMs. Especially when it looks just like a real ATX connector.
Anyway, to continue this offtopic post, here's what I did last time I needed to replace a motherboard in a big-name OEM computer -- a Compaq. Unplug the power supply from everything. Use the ATX power pinout [xtronics.com] as a reference and find pin 14. It's usually the green wire, but don't trust the colors. Stick one end of a straightened paperclip into pin 14, and stick the other end into any of the ground pins. Now plug in the power supply, make sure the switch on the back is turned on if it has one, and use a multimeter to see if it's standard ATX or some proprietary crap. Surprisingly, my friend's Compaq had a power supply and mobo with a standard ATX pinout. If you find yourself with a nonstandard power supply, either rewire it or get a new one. And don't ever expect tech support from the OEM again.
Re:another reason not to buy dell: fire hazard (Score:5, Insightful)
Pity most AC's are so anonymous.
Re:Nasty (Score:4, Interesting)
However, we put the dead and clicking harddrive (it wouldnt boot b/c the motherboard wouldnt recognize it) into another computer as a slave, and even though that computer's motherboard didn't recognize it either, windows was still able to access and read it, and the drive still works as a slave to this day (only a few weeks after the fact, but still).
I considered myself fairly knowledgable about computers, but I was really surprised to find that a hard drive was readable even when it wasnt recognized by the BIOS and was unbootable.. so maybe if you had booted off a DOS disk, you could have read it. It never hurts to try something... (also, we froze the harddrive for several hours to try to resuscitate it... I dunno if it helped, but it didnt kill the drive.)
Re:Nasty (Score:5, Informative)
Look at www.ntfs.com [ntfs.com], they offer a DOS boot disk capable of reading NTFS partitions, for free-as-in-beer
I've found the oposite... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:I've found the oposite... (Score:4, Interesting)
1. 10 minutes on the phone to determine laptop motherboard is dead, so I ship my laptop in (they pay for it)
2. 2 days later I get it back, but this time it is in even worse shape. Another 10 minutes on the phone and I mail it in again.
3. 2 days later I get it back again, seems to work fine, until I realize that it will no longer charge the battery.
4. Finally I gave in and upgraded to on-site service, and my computer was fixed and working in another two days.
Needless to say I was not too happy that with three trips to their depot they still couldn't properly fix my problem. It seems like their techs should have at least tried turning on my computer before shipping it back. I buy Dells all the time at work, but I think when it comes time to replace my personal computer I will either go somewhere else or build my own (not a laptop obviously).
latitude is their business line of laptops (Score:5, Informative)
If you have a Latitude or an Optiplex you get a much better support experience because these are their high-end business models. Most of my Dell (well when they didnt ship my phone call out to india) support is pretty good because we have a business account and all the fun extended warranty stuff that forces them to kiss our ass.
The home user (Inspiron owners, etc) get the bottom of the barrel support designed to make you jump through every hoop to save money on replacement parts and to deal with the clueless. When I call from work I just say "Yeah this CDROM died, can I get one tomorrow" and we do some chit-chat while he fills in the fields on his computer screen. The next day the drive is here. Trust me, that's not the residential experience at all.
Re:Nasty (Score:5, Interesting)
A really big jump there (Score:5, Insightful)
Ummm.... where in the article, the letter, ANYWHERE did it say this?
Just because Dell techs aren't allowed to help callers remove spyware (probably to keep Gator and its ilk from suing the pants off of them), doesn't mean that Dell has installed spyware itself. That's a very big and reckless jump you made.
Re:A really big jump there (Score:5, Informative)
Gator got pissed that people were calling their product spyware, and instead of changing their product, they changed its name.
Gator is now known as Claria.
Tell a friend.
Re:Nasty (Score:4, Insightful)
I have absolutetly no interest in helping people with their computer problems. They didn't buy that computer from Dell to ask me to fix it.
Perhaps you aren't a raving asshole to them when they ask for help but you sure do come off as one when you post a comment for others that probably know as much, if not more, about computers than you do.
Re:Nasty (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't know about you, but the people I know recognize me as someone who is very busy. I occasionally help out friends/family with computer problems[*], but there's no way I could possibly keep up if they all came to me with all their computer-related problems.
Even so, I'm more likely to recommend they get it from a smaller dealer or, for somewhat more knowledgeable people, stretch themselves by trying to build it themselves (I help pick out good parts). I tell them to take it to a place in-town for help if they need it. The per-incident cost, though it doesn't seem like it, will actually be less than the up-front support cost at a place like Dell.
[*] - It's much easier to solve the problem when you know the person's skill level and are actually there. Even assuming there is someone competent on the other end of the support line (a shaky assumption), they're handicapped, so I know I can do a better job. Besides, it's quite rewarding when I can actually teach someone how to do something.
Re:Nasty (Score:5, Funny)
The question is: Why the hell do people think that you can magically make their computers faster? And why do they ask you at the most inconvenient times? Anyone else have any stories like this?
Actually... (Score:5, Insightful)
Let me put this in perspective:
- if a car engineer lived next door, would they call him every month to fix their car for free? Nope.
- if an electronics engineer lived next door, would they call him every month to repair their TV for free? Nope.
- if a plumber lived next door, would they call him every month to unclog their toilet for free? Nope.
- if a skilled carpenter lived next door, would they call him every month to fix some piece of furniture for free? Nope.
Why? Basically because they have more respect for that plumber than for you. They can understand that:
1. Plumbing is real work, and it deserves compensation. On the other hand they likely see you not as an "expert", but rather as "bah, even kids know this stuff. If we only had a 10 year old, we'd ask him instead."
2. They can understand that the plumber has better stuff to do with his time. Like, dunno, grab a can of beer and watch the football game. Whereas what they think of you is more likely the exact opposite "some sad geek who surely has nothing to do with his time anyway."
3. Also because that plumber has enough self-respect to say "no". Whereas you seems to measure your worth by how much other people abused your time. Well, keep flattering yourself, and I'm sure they'll be more than happy to take advantage of you. Because that's all it is: taking advantage of someone who can't say no.
So, dunno, personally I'd rather be know as the "bad" guy who will _not_ fix your computer. (Well, not unless you're willing to pay my consultant fee.)
I don't give a flying ____ (sexual intercourse) if some random neighbour considers me an expert or not. What really matter is if my boss considers me an expert.
Sorry, hang on (Score:5, Informative)
What it says is Dell are for some reason now very aware that they're at risk of getting sued if they advise people to do thinks that violate somebody's EULA.
Re:Sorry, hang on (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sorry, hang on (Score:5, Interesting)
It's just legal FUD. I cannot honestly believe that Dell is scared of breaking some totally unenforceable third-party EULAs.
There has to be another reason why they are doing this. I can't think of any good ones though...
Re: Sorry, hang on (Score:4, Interesting)
> That excerpt from the memo says no such thing. What it says is Dell are for some reason now very aware that they're at risk of getting sued if they advise people to do thinks that violate somebody's EULA.
Of course, the correct solution for Dell would be to tell vendors that they will not ship computers with software that has EULAs that enforce such a blatant screwing of Dell's customers.
There's something very wrong with the PC economy if a company the size of Dell has to go along with what their suppliers want instead of what their customers want. Especially when what the customers want is so damnably reasonable.
Re: Sorry, hang on (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, the correct solution for Dell would be to tell vendors that they will not ship computers with software that has EULAs that enforce such a blatant screwing of Dell's customers.
I believe the hypothetical EULAs that kid-noodle is referring to are not EULAs for software pre-installed on the computer, but rather for software that the user installs himself.
For example: Imagine somebody purchases a Dell, then hooks it up to the Internet and downloads Software A, which includes - and by its EULA can only legally be run with - Spyware B. Now imagine that the user, irritated that B is having its way with his computer, calls Dell tech support for help. If Dell instructs the user to download an Ad-Aware workalike that delete B but leaves A still installed on the system, then Dell has put the user in violation of an EULA.
Now telling a friend to violate an EULA in such a manner would hardly place any of us in a moral dilemma; however, it does present a potential legal issue, and one that cannot safely be disregarded by a company with as many clients as Dell. I, for one, see how this could be a necessary move on Dell's part.
Think of it this way: When you buy a new car you are given a warranty on what the manufacturer has sold to you, but you cannot rightfully expect the manufacturer to warranty the new ignition control chip you put in. This is no different.
What on Earth are they thinking?! (Score:4, Interesting)
Well, no matter, we wipe all the Dells we get in at my company (thank god for RIS).
Jeesh...
Dell is not your computer handyman (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Dell is not your computer handyman (Score:5, Insightful)
Most people would be smart enough to realize that damage caused from sugar being poured into a car's gas tank is not the responsibility of the car manufacturer, but when it comes to computers, far fewer people are able to make similar parallels.
Re: Dell is not your computer handyman (Score:5, Funny)
> Why does this surprise people?
I think it's that quaint old idea that companies should at least pretend to have their customers' best interests in mind.
They support the OS, and the browser is the OS (Score:5, Insightful)
Dell supports Microsoft's OS and thus its browser. All these spyware apps attach to IE and cause huge problems. I had one person hand me a laptop chock full of spyware constantly changing the homepage (one program would change it and another would change it again) while in the background there were more than a few processes trying to download more spyware and another installing more.
Needless to say IE didnt work at all, it was just stuck on some orbitz page and the thing was more or less locked-up, but I did manage to get ad-aware to run.
Most of my friend's PCs problems can be traced to spyware they dont even know about because of how official ActiveX boxes look and the tons of legalese involved.
Dell would rather recommend a full-reinstall than ask the person "This may remove software you've installed" and be off the hook, legally. Instead Joe and Jane Dell owner will lose their baby photos and everything else they didn't backup after being told to reinstall from the rescue CD.
I think Dell has the obligation to be honest with their customers. If the tech believes its spyware he should tell them what it is and how to remove it - if they want.
More generically we need some kind of media campaign or some way to inform people about spyware, perhaps every company giving away free software without spyware should have an obligatory like to Ad Aware or Spybot during the install process.
Check out some of the support forums in the PC world. A significant number of serious problems are fixed simply with Ad Aware or Spybot.
Oh well, Dell gets a negative mark for not being honest with their customers. Tell the family to buy a Mac this year.
Re:Dell is not your computer handyman (Score:5, Funny)
Now you can go see an exorcist to erase the black smudge on your soul you received for shopping at Walmart.
Re:Dell is not your computer handyman (Score:5, Informative)
Says who??? The only place it says that is in the write-up submitted to Slashdot. Let's have a look at what spywareinfo has to say...
If you or a family member receive a Dell PC as a gift this Christmas, you may be in for a surprise, if it becomes infected with spyware.
So it sounds like just what the parent of your post claimed; they simply won't help you remove the crap you put on yourself. Try to keep your facts straight next time instead of jumping to unwarranted conclusions. Also, use that advice for all your life's endeavors.
OK... way to make stuff up! (Score:5, Interesting)
Stop making stuff up... where do you get this crap information from?
Dude, (Score:3, Funny)
We remove spyware all day long (Score:5, Informative)
Re:We remove spyware all day long (Score:5, Funny)
you remove a lot of microsoft products then?
Dude, your getting... (Score:3, Funny)
tech support monkey reporting in... (Score:5, Interesting)
I work in an on-campus computer repair shop. We're the Dell certified repair center for the entire college.
We pretty much only sell Dells to incoming students, and we're always getting them back in with "my computer is slow." we boot it up and find out they have like 90 million spyware/adaware apps installed. SaveNow, Gator, PrecisionTime, New.Net, WhenUSave, MySearch, SearchNow, IE.Net Drivers, and the list goes on.
Usually we just remove all of them however we can and send them on their way, but apparently if we do this, we'll now be breaking Dells Warranty?
this is definitely not cool, since we can't do that and stay certified...
Re:tech support monkey reporting in... (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, if you as an individual want to risk being sued by these nasty companies (which isn't likely to happen since they can't possibly sue you for much) for violation of a EULA, go right ahead. Dell can't risk that kind of nonsense because there are evil lawyers out there who would sue Dell over it, given the chance.
Remember, this is the new economy, where if you can't come up with good idea and working business model, you can still make a profit by coming up with a half-assed idea and finding people to sue for damages.
I don't see the big deal. (Score:5, Insightful)
After a quick RTFA, I see:
If you or a family member receive a Dell PC as a gift this Christmas, you may be in for a surprise, if it becomes infected with spyware.
Emphasis mine.
So there's no spyware known to be shipped on Dells. That's good at least. On to the memo.
NOTICE: Use of spyware removal software may conflict with user license agreements of other applications installed on your system. Please consult your user license agreements for further information. Dell does not endorse the use of spyware removal software and cannot provide support on these products.
What?? They won't support third party utilities that muck around in your registry and delete files in your system directory? Those bastards!
Seriously, nothing to see here folks. It's common sense.
Weaselmancer
Re:I don't see the big deal. (Score:5, Insightful)
Hang on, no it's not. If a customre calls with no clue what's causing problems and the Dell support person on the phone knows, common sense (not to mention common decency) dictates that they point them towards a simple spyware solution. Common sense does not suggest you avoid mentioning the likely source of the problem; it does require that you send your customer to the ISP or the OS vender or in any way start them on a fruitless runaround when you could simply say "spybot might solve your problem".
I understand Dell's liability concerns regarding EULA's they know nothing about, but it smacks of cowardice when a corporate behemoth is afraid to give decent tech support. Are they that afraid of Gator and other scumbag spyware companies?
well, duh. (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, of course, you can violate the EULA and get yourself some spyware removing tools and be ride of it.
Its a whole other story though, if Dell starts advising people to break these agreements. Granted, they are legally gray, but thats the point entirely of not wanting to get into the fray and being a potential party to breaking a contractual agreement.
A lawsuit avoided entirely is better than a lawsuit won.
Don't read too much into this (Score:3, Insightful)
some reasons why (Score:5, Informative)
What happens if the user hoses a system using one of the tools? HijackThis will allow you to 'fix' items that shouldn't be fixed. Spybot can do the same. In my opinion, a spyware killer in a novice's hands can be as damaging as some spyware.
Dell is also covering themselves against lawsuits, as the article pointed out. This should ultimately keep the prices down anyway. Come on folks- Dell support has ceased to be good. You buy a dell for a good price on a great computer, and then you hit up your neighborhood geek if you mess something up.
On a different topic, I wonder just what preinstalled spyware the article was talking about?
Re:some reasons why (Score:5, Informative)
Can you imagine the fun Dell's tech support would have trying to fix this? "um, oky, run this random program, but FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, make sure there isn't this other program."
Confused (Score:5, Insightful)
Dell may just be concerned about legal issues with helping Joe User de-install some software where the EULA requires the Spyware to be running -- Dell would be the ones with the deep pockets after all. And, some spyware removal that involves registry changes might destablize things in some way (I don't know). Probably more corporate lawyer nonsense than a misguided attempt to support spyware in its various forms.
Some program installs come with spyware, and the license agreement does require leaving it alone (since that's the compensation they get for the free software). So, Dell may just not want to step into the middle of this.
Maybe the finger should stay focused on the spyware creaters and bundlers for the time being...
Shows us what trusted computing will bring (Score:5, Insightful)
These days we buy the hardware and, sure the preloaded software probably sucks, so you reconfigure what you want or possibly even reinstall your OS. No problem!
But what happens when the hardware is in cahoots with the operating system, as will be the case with trusted computing [wikipedia.org]? Well it may be a lot more difficult to get your computer to do what you want, because certain software components carrying the right keys will easily slide into operating system hooks, while un-"trusted" software (the stuff you want to run) is more difficult to install and run freely.
I can imagine what a spyware-sporting vendor can accomplish with a trusted computing system. Their spyware, "trusted" software, may be automatically installed and automatically re-installed beyond your control. 3rd party efforts to keep this unwanted software out of the system will fail, because that 3rd party software (no matter what you want) is untrusted... hell, the BIOS itself [phoenix.com] will help police usage of the system. You're in luck, your hardware is going to protect you ;)
Actually, this isn't news at all... (Score:3, Interesting)
So it's definately a lousy policy, but this would be a clarification, nothing more.
Sounds awful, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
A lot of companies have policies of not recommending third party products they're not prepared to support if something goes wrong.
We got this memo at work... (Score:5, Interesting)
Not that Dell or my company has the right answer either way, but I just wish the weaselly fucks who write spyware would just stop.
Comcast, too (Score:5, Informative)
This isn't really surprising to me (Score:4, Insightful)
After having such good experiences with Dell in the Office, we started recommending people buy Dell for their home, too. Oh boy BIG mistake. The hardware is substandard, just about every default installation is munged somehow or another, and the things generally stop working within a year. *NO ONE* I know has gotten a good Dell home PC recently. Meanwhile we noticed a definite decrease in quality of customer support in the past year...
Me: Here's an article from Adobe that says there's a known issue between this motherboard and Adobe Acrobate 5.5, what's the solution?
Faceless E-mail Tech: Here's an article on how to troubleshoot Windows 2000 startup problems.
Me: Argh!
Ad infinitum.
On that note, is there any big name manufacturer that still makes/supports good home machines? People always ask me recommendations but I'm out of them, other than "Just buy a Mac".
Gateway's Policy (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Gateway's Policy (Score:5, Funny)
Ahh the joys of spyware.
Internal letter?? (Score:5, Insightful)
1. The validity of supposed 'email' that Dell sent out. According to this site, this refers to Dell's own preloaded applications. OK, but since when would Dell EVER refer to their own applications as "spyware" as they have done in this email. Spyware is now quite a volatile topic, and I would imagine that if Dell did infact have some sort of spyware preloaded on their machines, they'd at least be good enough to lie to us (via their techs) about what it is.
2.3rd Party Applications - As mentioned in (1), I don't think Dell would refer to their own applications as spyware, and if for arguments sake believe the email is geniune, then it refers only to 3rd party applications. So then we have a policy that is in line with Dell's general policy of not supporting 3rd party apps.
Most of us work in an environment where we have to deal with Dell's. I personally think the machines are pretty good and the service isn't bad. I've even gotten the techs help find a conflict with a 3rd party app before on a couple of occasions, but I recognize this is above and beyond the call of duty. Does Dell owe us a duty if we install 3rd party spyware to tell us to use a 3rd party spyware removal tool? What if that spyware removal tool removes an important dll and hoses the system? Then the tech support lines become even more efficient.
I just wanted to play devil's advocate here. I have no idea if that email is real or not, but I think we shouldn't immediately jump all over Dell until we can find out the truth. As it stands now, someone has posted a few sentences on a website somewhere - hardly damning evidence.
Very, very simple explanation (Score:5, Informative)
Having lived in the same city as Dell (in fact my church took over the building that used to house Michael Dell's synagogue...) for 10 years, and having known countless people who worked at Dell, and having worked (as a contractor) at Dell myself, I can confidentaly say there is likely one thing and one thing only going on here.
Dell is a leader in a very low margin business. They are virtually masterful at cutting costs. Their corporate buildings are made of prefab concrete, somewhere between ugly warehouse and office building, but just nice enough looking to be presentable and not look especially cheap. They expect their employees to work 60 hours a week and PRODUCE. Yet, they don't pay their employees a whole lot. They are the only major employer in the State of Texas, as far as I know, that has a policy of not paying out vacation time when you stop working there. When I worked there years and years ago, one of my duties was to order office supplies. The basic ball point pens were 3 cents each (due to a special deal with a supplier, I believe), and I was instructed not to order anything other than basic pens without a good reason. Dell also hires virtually all its workers as contractors first; if they are good enough, they may be hired on, but if not, there are no qualms about letting you go.
Fundamentally, if there is one characteristic that describes Dell, it's that they're cheap, cheap, CHEAP.
So, unless there is some evidence to support a different viewpoint, I'm quite certain that Dell is doing this only because they don't want those people to screw up their systems and call tech support back begging for help. Because that would cost more money.
And, to be fair, it's not as if Dell owes their customer help with some problem that is not Dell's fault anyway. If they did offer support for things like that, it might entice people to buy their products, but it would be just a perk.
Where did the spyware come from? (Score:5, Insightful)
Flame me if you like, but I have had pretty good experiences with Dell's tech support on the few occasions I have needed it. Mind you, I only go to them for hardware issues. I don't see that they have any obligation to provide support for stupid things that I might do with my own software.
And in other news: (Score:4, Insightful)
* Mobile phone makers won't guide people through how to fit after market flashing antenna attachments to their phones.
* Apple won't support customers who want to install linux over the top of OSX...
Really... this is predominantely a guy bitching about how Dell won't send people to his website to buy his product (he is, check the article)...
They have no reason to provide support such as this, it's time the consultants should be using to support the Dell Hardware and Dell Software. Let LavaSoft et al handle their own darn support.
I don't get it... (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh, wait. You mean it's the OPERATING SYSTEM that is at fault here, and not the machine?
Oh, wait. You mean that everyone here is flipping out cause Dell won't support users making bad decisions due to an insecure OS?
How is this Dell's fault again? Seriously...
Only a Pointy Haired Boss would put out this memo (Score:4, Funny)
User Error (Score:4, Insightful)
Now when we do that to a users computer, especialy a home user. apps no longer work, their taskbar nolonger tells the tempature, gator no longer saves passwords, that talking monkey or pariot is gone, that flag is gone, and the wallpaper dont change anymore. To them, we broke it. It dont work now and it did before.
The real problem is that it takes so much work to educate those users.
My solution, reformat and reinstall. (use any os except the system restore)
The Obvious Time Suck Issue (Score:5, Informative)
Some of the most insidious spyware that people pick up in their day to day work on the internet has the potential to completely disable internet access using Internet Explorer if it is removed from the system.
Now, I'm not advocating spy-ware, or suggesting that these programs are at all righteous--the developers of that software should be hanged--but it doesn't change the fact that if a company like Dell were to recommend that their users download and install something like Adaware they are getting themselves into a whole mess of follow up problems with inept users.
Any software that can potentially shut down the browser that the vast majority of non-saavy computer users employ everyday probably shouldn't be endorsed by a company like Dell... they would be creating a ton of work for themselves trying to explain which pieces of spy-ware should be removed and quarantined, and which should be dealt with by other means. Also, once you've explained what should be removed, then you have to deal with how to remove the spy-ware that Adaware shouldn't touch. We're talking about lots of man hours, and educational phone calls with inept users.
I think we can all agree that it isn't Dell's job to educate every user that owns a Dell on how they should remove spyware that is potentially going to comprimise their internet access through IE. Most people are just incapable of that level of skill anyway. I know I wouldn't want to walk a sixty year old grandma through all that over the phone.
Let's be realistic.
It's good for me. (Score:5, Insightful)
I say more power to them. Heck, I love Microsoft. Without all the security holes in Windows XP, I wouldn't have much business. (I even got to be on the local TV news as an expert on computers when blaster hit. My recommendation, on the air, was to buy a Mac, or run Linux.)
No, this post is not a troll. MS' bad security is good for me. Dell's new decision is good for me. Heck, anything that is bad for the user is good for me. (Although my PowerBook, which I carry with me to appointments, and tend to pull out at least once per appointment to make notes, or look things up, is probably bad for me. People see that I use a Mac, ask me which is better, and I flat out tell them. I wonder how many ex-clients are using a Mac now, and haven't called me because of it?)
Since When... (Score:5, Insightful)
The article says:
Since when does copyright protect the "right" to restrict people from removing information? I would think ripping an unwanted page out of a book and throwing it away would be unquestionably fair use.What are we going to have next? Is McDonald's tell us not to remove the pickles on their hamburgers because they have an agreement with some unknown pickle vendor?
Reasonable practice actually (Score:5, Informative)
The critical thing to remember is that users have a tendency to be paranoid, stupid, and dishonest as long as they're on the phone with tech support. You can save yourself a world of pain by not giving them any excuse to blame their mistakes on you. Maybe it's not nice that Dell won't help these people, but it's good business sense.
Note: I am not saying that ad-aware or any other anti-spyware program is bug-ridden and dangerous by itself. What I'm referring to is the nasty habit of spyware to be designed in such a way as to make it very difficult to completely remove, and incomplete removal results in Bad Things happening. This is why if someone has spyware that won't uninstall, we take them through manual removal. It may be tedious, but we know it works. Since we have documentation for that, the user can't blame us if they screw it up.
No luck for many... (Score:4, Interesting)
alternative (Score:4, Informative)
Debian provide some pretty special CDs too.
Re:No luck for many... (Score:4, Informative)
We use Dell OptiPlexi here at work, and I see very few problems with them hardware wise that isn't fixed in a few days. Software wise, we just make our own images and ghost 'em out, so I don't know what kind of install job Dell does.
Go Free. (Score:3, Interesting)
If the spyware is on the computer when you buy it, the spyware is also on the "recovery" CD.
Dude, you're getting Debian [debian.org], and you can try it out with Knoppix [knopper.net], is the only answer that won't cost you $150 and still come with spyware. That's right, XP home comes with spyware all on it's own. Tools such as spybot and addaware, as nice as they are, can't really solve the problem. Closed source
...An Answer (Score:5, Interesting)
If that's true, it's a travesty. That's like your car insurance provider telling you that dealing with damage to your vehicle from a collision should be dealt with by the Department of Transportation.
I don't understand why Dell doesn't grab the bull by the horns and partner up with somebody. Isn't that what all the pre-packaged computer companies do these days? They all have a buddy in the anti-virus industry. When digital music became the craze, they leapt to bundle MusicMatch and the like. Why not call up LavaSoft and say, "Want to get packed in with everything we sell?" Dell's choice seems like a step away from gaining customer confidence.
Re:...An Answer (Score:5, Informative)
I work for tech support for a major US DSL provider, and we're not allowed to remove spyware...we are supposed to refer the customer to their manufacturer. We are not even allowed to recommend AdAware or Spybot S&D to a customer...do these companies even talk to each other about anything? Nobody seems to want to take responsibility for helping users rid themselves of this garbage.
Re:...An Answer (Score:4, Interesting)
The way some companies keep prices low is by treating their customers, employees, and community as resources to be exploited (e.g., partnering with spyware companies, selling service to known spammers, refusing support for anything but Windows, firing their CSRs and outsourcing support to companies who use customer service scripts). Remember this the next time you save a few dollars buying a computer, getting a DSL line, or even shopping for groceries.
Re:well it doesn't matter too much (Score:3, Funny)
"We don't support it, but yes the weather IS quite nice in Sri Lanka"
You know, that kind of response.
Re:well it doesn't matter too much (Score:5, Insightful)
1) How many average Joe Sixpack computer users are aware of the existance of forums or discussion groups.
2) A number of said spyware programs hijack search pages. Running a search through what appears to be Google may result in viagra ads and links to more spyware.
3) Some spyware physically interrupts the internet connection. How would average user find the online articles with no internet connection or a computer too slow to do anything with?
I work for a small computer repair shop, and 95% of the calls/service requests we get are directly related to spyware/junkware. I can't complain, because Dell refusing support would only increase our business. However, I can't help but feel a bit ashamed that the largest OEM in the industry shifted all consumer phone support overseas, and now refuses to support one of the biggest problems facing home users to date. Why aren't spyware apps considered viruses? Certainly the behavior of some programs borders on virus-like. Does Dell even support virus removal?
You forgot ;) (Score:5, Funny)
$20 says I get modded troll
Re:You forgot ;) (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Doesn't matter really. (Score:5, Interesting)
There is no porn-ware I have not conquered.
One of my clients in a hard-core freak (it's his business, only guys work there, and his PC is largely private anyway. The man has Voyeurweb for his home page, for crissakes) who keeps falling for variations on "Porn Dialer" installers.
The really vile stuff tends to hang a piece of itself in win.ini, where it'll get re-collected into the registry on every reboot. You smack it out with the registry editor or msconfig and it comes back because a little installer that's loaded up because of unpreventable 16-bit Windows compatibility crap.
I've also seen pornware smart enough to modify system DLLs AND the copy in dllcache. sfc.exe fixes that sort of thing, and packages that pull a new.net and redirect DNS requests. Evil stuff.
I don't know where those programs come from but the guys who make those programs are just showing where mainstream spyware will be going next.