Harry Potter in German, not Czech 304
The official translation of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix into German is scheduled to hit shelves on November 8. But at the
Harry auf deutsch
site
(here's Google's
English), a community has sprung up to perform a distributed translation. Every volunteer works on five pages, with the aid of a
Potter-specific dictionary,
and after turning in a German version, works on the prose to ensure it reads smoothly. In an unrelated effort, some schoolboys who did a Czech translation and posted it to a private website have been
sued by Albatros,
the Czech publishing house who will have the official translation out in February. Looks like Harry is crushing more than
the Hulk.
Oh, and please don't post spoilers, it's still too early :)
Whats the bet... (Score:5, Funny)
Karma whoring (Re:Whats the bet...) (Score:5, Funny)
Babelfish translation:
Re:Karma whoring (Re:Whats the bet...) (Score:5, Funny)
Remember 1984 ? (Score:2)
Re:Karma whoring (Re:Whats the bet...) (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Whats the bet... (Score:5, Insightful)
This is why copyright protects an author's right over derivative works, including translations - it should be up to the author/publisher to select who is allowed to make the official translation, giving them some means to control what is put out in the author's name in other languages.
+5 on the spot (Score:2)
This is precisely the point of what would be wrong in addition to being not very consistent after everey 5th page with a community based translation.
I read both, English and German. The new HP obviosuly in English and I can say that 1-4 (which I read in German) are very, very accurately translated.
An accurate translation is certainly not a literal translation of a text, but rather a rewrite of the material in a d
Sounds quite vulger to me... (Score:5, Funny)
At least he uses open source web browsers...
Re:Sounds quite vulger to me... (Score:4, Funny)
Maybe they should've changed the title to Harry Potter and the Order of the Mozilla FireBird(tm)?
What Censorship (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:What Censorship (Score:2)
Re:What Censorship (Score:2, Interesting)
Ms. Rowling is a billionaire now. Does she really need more? Is she even owed more? Does she not owe a little to the millions of fans that have made her so rich?
Why not let them do knock offs & translations & whatever... How does it really hurt her? Say whatever you like about the law and copyright but once you release something to the public, you have effectively given it away despite whatever the IP laws say you still own. All you really own is the right to make m
Inconsistancy in tone/style between translators? (Score:5, Insightful)
Most of the time there is never a 100% "correct" translation from one language to another and relies on the translator to make the judgement. This is not a problem when it's one person doing the translation as they would more likely to be consistent throughout the book, but when you have multple people it's bound to be very tricky.
Re:Inconsistancy in tone/style between translators (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Inconsistancy in tone/style between translators (Score:5, Interesting)
The problem I'm thinking of is more subtle in that if you imagine converting the english version into an audio book even a persons voice and their inflections effect the mood.
So if you have different people just reading out the english, although word-for-word accurate would end up not being much fun to listen too.
The person doing the second-pass will probably have to do quite a bit of editing. What might be more useful would be of they had more than one translation of that section, the would choose one which "gelled" the most and required the least editing.
Maybe the problem is even further up... (Score:2)
"Hobbies: Kammermusik, Bowling"
Kammermusik I can understand, but Dumbledore playing BOWLING ?!?
Re:Maybe the problem is even further up... (Score:2)
Re:Inconsistancy in tone/style between translators (Score:5, Interesting)
It is an interesting project though, copyright issues aside. Wonder how good/quick a distributed translation would be?
Side note: Many professionals already use machine translation for a first step, but then there is the slow and careful process of crafting the book in a new language, adapting it to a local mindset, making it more than just a translation.
One typical example of the hard work of a translator is, of course, Tolkiens works.
Should the translator treat middle earth and the shire as *our* earth and england, or as a fantasy world?
In the first case, you want to keep references to english customs, manners and names. Otherwise you might want to adapt the characters and places to your local culture.
Now, Harry Potter is explicitly in england, so this is not such a problem, but you still want to check your cultural bearings.
A description of a typically normal (muggle) meal for example might be considered exotic (or gross) by a muslim, hindu or jew. Which is better: to adapt their menu so that the passage wont steal attention from the story, or keep it?
wtf? (Score:4, Insightful)
What? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:What? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What? (Score:2)
Re:What? (Score:3, Informative)
Would you say it's ok for me to take said region 1 dvd, rip it to divx and distribute over the internet?
Would you say it's ok for me to buy a Japanese magazine even though I don't understand Japanese - just to view the pictures?
Um, yeah.
Would you say it's ok for me to buy a Japanes magazine and have a friend write me a translation?
Yes.. what's your point?
Wouldn't you say that as long as I've paid the autho
Censorship???!!?? (Score:5, Insightful)
Write your own book, make it freeware and be happy. Harry Potter is not freeware, it is protected by copyright laws and international contracts for localisation / translation. It is, in the least, stupid, to be advocating what is, indeed, piracy.
Re:Censorship???!!?? (Score:4, Interesting)
You are right. But should it be wrong for someone who has brought a copy of the book but wants to read it in their native language to have access to that? Note that the book isn't coming out in other languages for months yet. I am sure the hardcore fans that download the translated version will also buy it once it is released.
Is anyone by any chance prohibiting these fine Czech and German people from buying the book in English and reading it at their leisure?
Oh, let me guess! English is your first (only?) language, isn't it? Not everyone speaks English. Even if they do, it is often much easier to read a book translated into your first language than it is to read one in your second. For most people reading is a time to relax and forget - it's easier to do that when you dominate the language you are reading.
Re:Censorship???!!?? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Censorship???!!?? (Score:2)
BTW there have been some voices that such a delay before the translation hits the market increases a possibility of such an accident. The copyright owner hadn't given the permission (and the actual text) to begin the translation at the time the book was printed (although it is a routine to do so).
Re:Censorship???!!?? (Score:2)
Re:Censorship???!!?? (Score:2)
This is trademark stuff, but copyright has similar rules.
Re:Censorship???!!?? (Score:2)
> wonder where exactly they draw the line for the copyright. Is it okay to call it an "unofficial translation". Writing a parody based on the original book is legal in most countries
Parody is a defence that you may or may not be allowed to offer depending on your local laws. This doesn't enjoy even that tenuous protection, and these people will get rightly bitchslapped under Berne convention article 8 [cornell.edu].
Re:Censorship???!!?? (Score:4, Interesting)
But translations require a certain level of creativity in order to localize the concepts and words into the culture in question. Different translators might make different choices in how to translate a particular phrase or concept thus resulting in a variety of qualities of translation.
A translation is definitely not an exact copy, and might have some merit independently from what it is translating. The question is, is it enough to call it a derivative work? I suspect not, but as IANAL, I don't know.
If it is though, then prohibiting the dissemination of an independent work is by definition censorship.
Re:Censorship???!!?? (Score:2, Informative)
Copyright law does indeed cover derivative works. But I'm not sure what exactly constitutes a "derivative work," especially when it comes to something like a translation. IANAL, though I think it's safe to assume that a direct translation of a given book would be considered a derivative work, since all the creation/ideas/etc... are there, just in a different language.
Re:Censorship???!!?? (Score:2)
This is not exact (money sharing is mostly the most tricky part) but shows the concept.
Re:Censorship???!!?? (Score:3, Interesting)
One of the opinions often put forward on Slashdot is that if you 'own' a song in any format (record, cd, what have you), then you have a license to use that song on any media you desire (mp3, ogg vorbis, heaven-forbid... real audio). This stems from the argument that what you're purchasing is a license to use the intellectual property. The physical object (the disk or media) is actually incidental.
So, what is language? Is the language part of the abstract that forms t
Re:Censorship???!!?? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Censorship???!!?? (Score:5, Informative)
The only way you can translate a work legally if you pay the original author for permission. You own the copyright on the translation (unless otherwise agreed to in the contract for the translation), but generally most contracts stipulate that you still have to pay the original author royalties on copies of the translation you sell, since the author still has copyright on the original, and the only thing that gave you the right to do the translation was to sign the contract.
Make sense?
Re:Censorship???!!?? (Score:2)
US Copyright law is irrelevent here. What matters are the laws in Germany and the Czech Republic.
interesting side effects (Score:2)
This has some interesting effects when you're dealing with older works. If a piece of literature is originally in a foreign language but old enough to be copyright-free, the translations may recent enough to be copyrighted. So, for example, the original works of Goethe are free to distribute, but any translations done within the last few decades are not. (Although, in his case, several translations a
Re:Censorship???!!?? (Score:2)
Re:Censorship???!!?? (Score:2)
Although I strongly believe that the copyright law today has tilted far too heavily in favor of content owners, as a
Re:Censorship???!!?? (Score:2)
>I'd be very interested to know what the legal status of translations in copyright law is
The Berne convention is crystal clear on this: Authors of literary and artistic works protected by this Convention shall enjoy the exclusive right of making and of authorizing the translation of their works throughout the term of protection of their rights in the original works. [cornell.edu]
Yes, you read that right. If you want to make a translation for your own use, that's technically infringement and you have to argue it
Re:Censorship???!!?? (Score:2)
Derivate works are protected by copyright law, just like exact copies are. Duh!
You can't even write your own book regarding harry potter as main person, as this would be derivate work!!
Re:Censorship???!!?? (Score:3, Insightful)
At least, those are the kinds of Slashdot responses you'd be getting if it were a piece of music. Isn't hypocrisy great?
Re:Censorship???!!?? (Score:2)
Most (it used to be all) fansubbers sub stuff that hasn't been licensed in the state where the fansubbers is living.(usually usa) Harry Potter is licensed and even a publishing date is availiable.
Re:Censorship???!!?? (Score:2)
>Most (it used to be all) fansubbers sub stuff that hasn't been licensed in the state where the fansubbers is living.(usually usa) Harry Potter is licensed and even a publishing date is availiable.
That's a difference if and only if it effects any commercial harm clause of fair use protection that you might happen to enjoy in that territory. If a rights owner had gone many years without doing a translation, it might help, but you'd really better speak to a (local!) IP lawyer before making the assumpti
Harry auf Deutsch (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Harry auf Deutsch (Score:2)
How unreasonable! (Score:4, Funny)
Talk about commitment (Score:2, Interesting)
I can't see JK Rowling endorsing the project, at least not officially, but this speaks volumes of how committed the fans are to her stories, and if I were her, I'd be proud.
Good business/Bad business (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Good business/Bad business (Score:5, Insightful)
Neither is stealing from your favorite author.
Re:Good business/Bad business (Score:2)
If they sue the a few translators, they "save" perhaps thousands of others who would not have bought the book legally.
Duh.
Re:Good business/Bad business (Score:2)
So what do you propose they do? Stand back and let people piss all over your copyright because they're just fans?
Just because they are doesn't mean they're immune to general laws.
If they're that much of a fan, they'll buy it when the official translation comes out ... along with the mug, hat, special edition fluffy toy ... etc. etc.
Re:Good business/Bad business (Score:2)
I'm sure they will, but the simple fact of the matter is that JK Rowling and crew have to sell a product - they're not putting out anything that people need to live and they're obviously not hurting for cash if they're doing such huge print runs and making movies, they could have afforded to overlook something like this. Just because they're riding the h
Re:Good business/Bad business (Score:2)
They are not being sued by the author, they are being sued by the publishing company who intend publishing their t
Respect for Laws (Score:5, Insightful)
The very foundation of much of the opensource movement, the GPL license is about respect for law. These people distributing the Harry Potter work are not respecting the law. We can't have opensource without these very same laws.
Re:Respect for Laws (Score:2)
>What I want to know is how can ANYONE think that the publisher asserting their rights in this situation is a bad thing?
Um, because copyright laws are intended to protect creators, not publishers. If you meant author, then I agree absolutely, but please get the distinction clear. Publishers do (or should) license rights to publish from creators, they shouldn't control them. The "work for hire" fiasco is partly responsible for getting the music industry into its present abominable state, where you c
Slashdot over the edge. (Score:5, Insightful)
pre-rebuttal: the case of the network wide 'search engine' and the college students was hardly the only such one that /. has complained about, and that one was quickly withdrawn after it proved to be untenable. additionally, that they sued for a enormous amount of money has no bearing on what they might have actually won.
Re:Slashdot over the edge. (Score:3)
Re:Slashdot over the edge. (Score:2)
Wanted: English to Chinese translator (Score:2)
Rowling could sure make a couple of billion more if she releases a chinese edition.
Now, I'm just thinking how witches, wizards and Harry Potter magic would fit with the chinese culture. But well, if the rest of the world is reading it, then the Chinese would follow!
After all, who would watch Titanic many times without u
Re:Wanted: English to Chinese translator (Score:5, Funny)
the Chinese would follow? (Score:2)
Heck, there was a slashdot story about this earlier...
It would be greatly amusing if the government got the idea of writing a harry potter book or two for "inspiring young kids toward great things." (i mean, JR Rowling has no power of copyright in china if the government don't give a shit about it) - like "Harry Potter discovers communism" or "Harry Potter vs. capitalistic pigs" or "Harry Potter and the red dragon Mao" something.
well, besides thos
Re:Wanted: English to Chinese translator (Score:2)
While disregard for IPR is widespread in much of the world, china is a particularly notorious case. This is not because of
They've already replaced the old one (Score:2)
The People's Publishing House have been selling Chinese translations of the Harry Potter books since 2000. News story here [bbc.co.uk]. The Chinese translation of The Order of the Phoenix will be out in October - 29-year-old Ma Aixin is doing the translation, as the old translators were making the language too elegant and stiff. [china.org.cn]
Re:Wanted: English to Chinese translator (Score:2)
Not to mention the different Chinese "dialects" (though the very usage of the word dialect is wrong because they aren't dialects but entirely differnet languages that use the same writing system) and the non-Mandarin/Cantonese languages in China, Uyghur, Mongolian, Korean, Tibetan, etc etc etc. So 1.2 billion is an overestimation.
Your point is well t
Re:Wanted: English to Chinese translator (Score:5, Funny)
Chinese is the language spoken from BIRTH by the most people
Wow! When my nephew was born, he couldn't speak any languages at all. He's already two, and he's only just getting the hang of English. How come Chinese babies are all so brainy?
Re:Wanted: English to Chinese translator (Score:2)
If you would really like for me to clarifly I will do so:
"Chinese is the language most taught, from birth, as the child's first language"
happy?
Re:Wanted: English to Chinese translator (Score:2)
There are two writing systems, traditional Chinese and simplified Chinese. Simplified Chinese is used in mainland China, traditional is used in Hong Kong and the New Territories. Basically, the symbol has a meaning, although that symbol is pronounced very differently in different regions. Most Mandarin Chinese can
Re:Wanted: English to Chinese translator (Score:2)
Re:Wanted: English to Chinese translator (Score:2)
Same day release dates (Score:5, Insightful)
The Harry Potter publishers were naive to think this wouldn't happen.
Do you know how impossible that would be? (Score:5, Interesting)
Having said that, I'm not blind to how big a phenomenon Harry Potter has become. JK Rowling herself has said that she's surprised that the plot of this latest book wasn't leaked before its launch, even though the story was a closely guarded secret. Less than a dozen people had read the book before it went into production and the printing lines and distribution centres were closely guarded too to stop any copies of the book getting out before the official launch.
How many copies and how big an exercise are we talking about?
Well, the new book, Harry Potter and the Order of the Pheonix, sold 1.7 million copies in Britain alone in its first week. The next best-selling hardback novel that week sold 6,500 copies. That isn't a small margin, it's a gulf.
Multiply that several times to come up with the number that were actually printed - 6.8 million for the original print run and 1.7 million for the second according to several sources. That's a lot of books. In fact, it's the biggest print run in history.
Now, if you had simultaneous launches in several languages then you'd have to have translations sorted beforehand (and worry even more about plot leakages), and have an even bigger print run to cope with all those foreign language versions.
Three words for you: never gonna happen.
Redundant (Score:3, Funny)
You had already mentioned Middle Earth.
Re:Same day release dates (Score:4, Informative)
It's not the same thing. As far as I know, Harry Potter came out on the same day worldwide. It's just that the translated versions won't be out for a while, which is quite reasonable since translating 700+ pages is not something you can do over a weekend.
They could sit on the english version and wait until the translations were ready, but this creates another problem: waiting for _everyone_ to finish is going to take a ridiculously (sp?) long time (so everyone has to wait), and if you don't wait for everyone you're more or less back to square one: people in smaller markets have to wait for the translation and will not be happy about it. Also, where do you draw the line between popular and not-so-popular languages?
Also, for Harry Potter in particular there were going to be A LOT of people who would not be happy to learn that the (already late) book will take another 5 months to print while it's being translated. And, as another poster has observed, the odds of a story leak would skyrocket.
Traslating a book is not the same as a movie or localising a game. With a movie, there is a LOT less content to work on and the standrards are way lower so it only takes about a week, if that. Either waiting for a week to release the movie, or releasing it a week late in other countries is no big deal. Besides, since most movies have a lot of special effects, you could probably do the special effects and the translation at the same time. Theb problem lies mostly in distribution and marketing.
Video games are even easier since any game that's worth the effort of translating will go through weeks of betas and QA before it goes gold. Having said that, most companies are happy to spend 6 months making a PAL conversion even with no tranlating involved, so I must be missing something
Re:Same day release dates (Score:2)
Yet this is still done with movies.
For example, 28 Days Later was released in the UK on Nov 1, 2002, but they waited until June 27, 2003 before the US release.
The only unusual thing here is the US not getting to see it first. Whereas "The Hulk" does not open in the UK until the 18th
All to predicable, the publishers are at fault. (Score:3, Insightful)
I am surprised they let this happen
The thing is, exactly the same thing happened last time, when Book four was published.
At the time, (August 2000 BTW), some German fans started a distributed translation effort, as reported at the time in the Register [theregister.co.uk]
I would have thought, that the publishers would have learnt their lesson, and made sure that translations into the other languages where Harry Potter has a large fan base would be released on the same day as the english version, or failing that, not more than a month later.
Considering the huge volume of pre-orders that there where for book 5 in english, I think it was unreasonable to expect German fans to wait 3 months for the official translation, or Czech fans to wait 8.
Obviously some fans can read the book in english, but considering that the book is aimed at children, many will not, Instead they will ask their parents to read the book and give them the plot highlights. Is it not surprising that some of those adults are organising themselves to translate the book.
I am not condoning the what is happening, it is still a copyright violation, but it was entirely predictable, and IMHO, the publishers only have themselves to blame.
Re:All to predicable, the publishers are at fault. (Score:3, Informative)
Doing a top quality translation of a 700+ page novel takes more than a month. Even to a language relatively close to English such as German (and while I can't speak German, I did take several German classes in high school... they're suf
A private website? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:A private website? (Score:2)
Could someone translate the webpage? (Score:5, Funny)
Nature Abhors A Vacuum (Score:3, Insightful)
Nature abhors a vacuum...and apparently, so do geeks.
Although copyright law will definitely come down on the publishers' side, I assume that these translators aren't doing all this hard work in order to thumb their nose at the rights holders. If there was already a definitive German/Czech/Crotobaltoslavonian translation available, then this activity would be unnecessary. However, as far as the official translators go, well, if they can't keep up with amateurs working for free, then they probably ought to be trying harder or reevaluating their processes. If you leave a vacuum, expect someone else to fill it.
Good way to short-circuit the delay, BUT..... (Score:5, Informative)
They might be missing something, though -- in French, at least, they don't do a straight translation. Rowling makes so many word-plays that a word-for-word translation wouldn't be nearly as enjoyable. The French translator is allowed the liberty of rearranging the games to work out properly in French. My absolute favorite is the Sorting Hat, translated to Le Choixpeau (sounds like "the hat," but words mean "choose-skin."). Also, Tom Riddle became Tom Elvis Jedusor, where Jedusor looks like "game of chance" or "game of spells" and the full name rearranges to Je Suis Voldemort. The houses of Poudlard become Gryffondor, Serpentard, Serdaigle, et Poufsouffle. In the collective translation, I'm sure we'll see some creative input on the word-plays -- but can they be consistent? I somewhat doubt it.
One thing the translators may be seeking to avoid is the over-(ab)use of this translator's power. A friend who had read the English version first threw her copy of Coupe de Feu across the room after one chapter toward the end. The translator had "corrected" something that Mme. Rowling wrote and reportedly has said in interviews that she wrote it intentionally. One surmises the twist may play a role in future books, though it hasn't thus far in Order of the Phoenix.
Fair use??? (Score:3, Interesting)
We use that reasoning all the time when we 'translate' from our CD's to MP3 or OGG?
Re:Fair use??? (Score:2)
That's okay.... (Score:5, Funny)
In the futile hope of bringing facts into this (Score:5, Informative)
BERNE CONVENTION FOR THE PROTECTION OF LITERARY AND ARTISTIC WORKS (Paris Text 1971) [cornell.edu]
Article 8
Authors of literary and artistic works protected by this Convention shall enjoy the exclusive right of making and of authorizing the translation of their works throughout the term of protection of their rights in the original works.
You want to argue fair use protection? Fine, it's arguably fair use to make a translation of parts of the work for your own or strictly limited academic use. Making a full translation of the whole work with the explicit intent to distribute it, while the rights owner is trying to sell her own version, is blatant violation. Mealy mouthed lawyerese that each individual translator is protected by fair use is dissembling of the most pedantic kind. The intent to violate is clear.
Discuss.
Harry Potter in German, not Czech (Score:3, Informative)
I remember these kids... (Score:2)
Distributed translation sounds impossible (Score:4, Interesting)
For example, in Order of the Phoenix, Rowling invents a plant with a latin-sounding name, Mimbulus mimbletonia. What should this be rendered as in German? In English, it has resonance with words like 'mumble', uses the common English surname/town suffix '-ton', and it even refers back to to the Rime of the Ancient Mariner's use of the word 'mimble'. Different translators will approach the task of selecting a German equivalent differently. Some will leave it as is, others will try to select a different latin name that conjures similar imagery in a German mind.
Then you have Rowling's love of writing vocal tics, speech impediments, and dialect (hagrid's speech, for example), which basically requires her to have the character's voice in her head as she transcribes how he speaks. A hundred different German translators can't be expected to have the same 'hagrid's voice' in their mind as they imagine him speaking German, so you'll effectively find his accent changing from page to page as different translators render his speech.
I really can't see this effort producing a half-decent translation job.
Czech publisher's statement (Score:5, Informative)
The best part so far: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:No, she doesn't. Everyone knows it's Ron. (Score:2, Funny)
The two Potters -- Harry vs. Frederica (Score:2)
Hey -- there could be a crossover -- maybe Frederica could marry Harry! Certainly he'd be better than the losers like Nigel Reiver that Frederica normally goes out with...
Re:fair use? (Score:2)
Re:fair use? (Score:2)
You will legally be no better off in a thin conspiracy as you suggest than if you tried to convince a police officer th
note the "fair" part (Score:4, Interesting)
photocopying your favourite picture from a book to put on the wall is fair use
lithographing your favourite picture from a book to put on the cover of your book, isn't.
The reason there are no actual methodlogies described or proscribed is that "good" laws are worded such that it is left to a judge to interpret what is fair and what is not.
The aim is to avoid laws laws that say "you can use pictures from a book to decorate your domicile but not your published works" or "all electronics devices should have copy protection built in" because these tend to cause more trouble in the long run as cricumstances change.
For instance, in my county Nottingham, England, it is the law that every male of age must engage in weekly archery practice on pain of a fine. A law used by my friend who is a longbow enthusiast. (Some people get a bit cagey when you're out on the common with your longbow, shooting at trees).
Re:Hermione, student, dead at 14 (Score:2)
Re:Eine Gespoiler fur die Deutche (Score:2)