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Privacy United States

US Immigration Implements Biometric-based Border 125

Posted by michael from the papers-please dept.
scubacuda writes "The NY Times reports (free registration) that immigrations officials are putting in place a sophisticated new identification system that uses ID cards encrypted with digital photos, signatures, biographical information and fingerprints that have been issued by the State Department and the Immigration and Naturalization Service by the millions over the last five years. "With more information systems, there are more opportunities for abuse," said Marc Rotenberg, executive director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, which is pushing the government to release more information on its biometric plans."
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US Immigration Implements Biometric-based Border More

US Immigration Implements Biometric-based Border

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  • George Orwell award (Score:5, Funny)

    by LinuxXPHybrid ( 648686 ) on Sunday February 09, 2003 @07:25AM (#5263586) Journal
    This year's George Orwell award is going to whoever built this system? Well, congratulation!
    • I reckon. Why wate their time with this, when all they need is to start tattooing barcodes on our foreheads. Much more cost effective!
    • Ahh... you must be referring to the big brother awards distributed by the EFF's spawn in Finland, EFFi... link here [effi.org] Sorry, finnish version only, but you can see the lovely award... You want to see the future?

  • scary (Score:2, Insightful)

    by sickboy_macosX ( 592550 )
    TOo bad Orwell's novel was not "2004" I mean i realize it is 2003 but think of what it is going to be like next year.

    • Re:scary (Score:2, Funny)

      by _Pablo ( 126574 )
      I guess that like most technology led projects, delays are the order of the day.

      So if 1984 comes 20 years late, then 2001 isn't due for another 18 years - give the current rate of space odessey-ing that may even be a little optimisitic!

    • I may be stating the obvious, but the reason that Orwell called his book 1984 was that he wrote it in 1948 - he just flipped the last two digits. It's ironic that he modelled the Oceania in his dystopia on the Soviet Union, while most of the 1984 references produced refer to the USA (and Britain, to a lesser extent).

  • Foreign passports require biometrics? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by roybadami ( 515249 ) on Sunday February 09, 2003 @07:37AM (#5263611)
    The most interesting (to me) comment in the article (which isn't elaborated further) is:

    The legislation also requires foreign governments to use biometric technology in passports.

    What if countries refuse? -- and I can't really see the rest of the world adding biometrics to their passports just becuase the US tells them to.

    Being British, I don't currently require a visa for a short (up to 3 months?) visit to the US. I guess if Europe doesn't go along with these demands, I'm going to need a visa (which, presumably, will have biometrics embedded in it).
    • What if countries refuse? -- and I can't really see the rest of the world adding biometrics to their passports just becuase the US tells them to.

      The UK are intending to introduce biometric id cards - there's already been consultation (so called) about it. The US biometric thing was sited by David Blunkett as a reason for us needing them ... Details here [privacyinternational.org]
      • Thanks for that. More interesting, in fact, is the suggestion in the article you cite that the Schengen countries have already decided to go ahead with biometrics.

        So biometrics look like they're a forgone conclusion in Europe.
      • The UK are intending to introduce biometric id cards - there's already been consultation (so called) about it.

        Yeah, but it was shot down in flames due to some pretty major grass roots opposition that sprung up overnight against it.

        Of course, they called it an "Entitlement Card". Don't ya just love the Newspeak?

      • The UK are intending to introduce biometric id cards - there's already been consultation (so called) about it. The US biometric thing was sited by David Blunkett as a reason for us needing them ... Details here [privacyinternational.org]

        I'd also add that, whatever the outcome of the consultation on ID cards, ie whether or not they ever happen, and whether or not they end up containing biometric data (at least in the short term), it seems to me pretty unlikely that ID cards will be up and running by the US deadline of Oct 2004, let alone biometric data on passports (which hasn't even been consulted yet).

        I very much doubt that many (any?) countries will meet the deadline, so the US will have two choices: extend the deadline, or effectively shut down the visa waiver programme.

    • Re:Foreign passports require biometrics? (Score:5, Informative)

      by roybadami ( 515249 ) on Sunday February 09, 2003 @08:11AM (#5263692)
      Sorry about the dropped tag above.

      Found another reference that might be of interest:

      http://www.gunweek.com/archives/2002/hs090102.html [gunweek.com]

      The countries that are members of the US visa waiver programme (allowing short stays in the US without a visa) are required to implement biometrics on all passports issued after October 2004, otherwise their citizens will be required to apply for a US visa in order to visit the US.

      The article comments that the Irish are concerned about the possible damage to trade and tourism that would result from the reintroduction of visa requirements.

      I'll be intrested to see how this turns out, but I think there'll be a public outcry here in the UK if there's an attempt to include biometrics on British passports.

      So I guess I'll be needing a visa, then...
      • The article comments that the Irish are concerned about the possible damage to trade and tourism that would result from the reintroduction of visa requirements.

        So I guess I'll be needing a visa, then...

        Or, you could just not go there anymore. Their loss, it's their tourist industry.

      • "but I think there'll be a public outcry here in the UK"

        Public outcry in the UK rarely changes things unless it is accompanied by violent demonstrations in Trafalgar Square (Poll Tax demonstration). When the right-to-silence was removed by the British Parliament a few years back, the public outcry did nothing to change the situation.

        The current crop of British politicians have recently decided to do whatever the US government tells them. If the US government tells them to include biometric data on UK passports then the British politicians will include it. The usual "post 9-11" anti-terrorist security reasons will be hauled out... a few "looney-left" politicos will raise some civil rights issues, the media will come down firmly on the side of the Home Office and you will not be needing a visa to enter the United States at all.

        You may be "interested to see how this turns out" but I'm wondering why the result is not obvious to you...

        cheers

        front
      • How does that work with Canada? Last I checked, I didn't need a passport to visit the US. Just some form of ID (birth certificate or drivers license I think).

    • The biggest problem with the Visa Waiver program is that when you leave the US (i.e. checking in for your flight) the Airlines (AFAIK) don't bother returning the waiver forms back to the immigration services.

      I visited Canada a couple of weeks before my return home, on a maxxed out visit to the US (i.e. 88 days out of the 90 day max)... and talk about a breaking of balls exercise (i.e. they wanted to deport me thinking I'd broken the terms of my waiver when in fact I hadn't), it was not fun. I know it seems US immigration officers seem to have a personality bypass in general... but this was worse (they also give their own people shit when returning, must be the rush of authority). I think I also bore the brunt of the fact that 5 people with British passports came through the same border a week or two before (although I was being hunted by the FBI and pointed the finger at the others to try and avoid any interest in him).

      The crux of it is, is that I ain't visiting the US for a year or two until I can get something a little more flexible than the Visa waiver... and I don't know what data they were putting in their computers when I got the 20 questions (in 30 seconds), you can never tell. Oh well, at least it is a big warmer back in Blighty than the east coast has been.

      • I can tell you for a fact that all your I-94s that you turn in when you leave get processed (stamped with your departure information byt the company that handled your departure) and tossed in a box in their office. Then, when this box is full it gets delivered to the INS officials on-site.

        It is the responsibility of the company (cruise ship, airline, whatever) to turn these over in a timely matter but they're dealing with a mostly inept governmental agency, so you can imagine what "timely" degrades to. This is how it has worked in several airports I have worked in.

        You manage not to get your balls busted with this approach if you aren't a frequent traveller... Otherwise when they swipe your passport through their barcode reader the computer returns a "Overdue for departure, still in country" message. I vaguely remember a statue of limitations on this..... 90 days sounds familiar

        Conversely, the way to verify your information has been processed (rather time consuming, if you ask me) is to show up in your home country at the US embassy and say "Hey, I'm XXX XXXXX and I've obviously left your country and I think my I-94 wasn't properly processed."
      • You can't get a new visa waiver if you go to Canada or Mexico; the original expiration date still applies.
    • I have heard that the Netherlands is also going to include biometric information on a newly to be developed passport, because it is required by the US government. I think it is ridiculous that the US government is enforcing policies for foreigners that they never would (could) request from their own citizens.
    • What if countries refuse? -- and I can't really see the rest of the world adding biometrics to their passports just becuase the US tells them to.

      Then you wouldn't be allowed in the US.
      • Then you wouldn't be allowed in the US.

        The US isn't that isolationist.

        But we already have the answer; the US would suspect that country's membership of the visa waiver programme, and their citizens would have to apply for visas, just like it worked in the old days.

        The visas would, of course, include biometric data.

  • and on a side note, (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09, 2003 @07:40AM (#5263619)
    that famous American puppet-state, Australia, is doing the same thing.

    • Re:and on a side note, (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Hmm... my passport is valid for another 7 years or so... now presumably this would require all passports to be reissued or reapplied for, or swapped as they expire.

      If they wait for expiry, the system can't work fully for another 10 years.

      If they force reapplication, there'll be a public outcry if there's any need to pay for the new ones. The current affairs programs will have a field day.

      So the remaining option involves the government paying for it all to be switched over... and the current affairs shows will have a field day again, talking about wasted money...
      • Hmm... my passport is valid for another 7 years or so... now presumably this would require all passports to be reissued or reapplied for, or swapped as they expire.

        As I understand it, it's only passports issued after October 2004 that will have to have biometric data. So you're right, it will be 10 years before the system is fully operational.
  • Now all we need is some way to get all the illegal aliens to get this groovy new identification card...

    Now if only the INS could manage to not screw up my friend's citizenship request.

  • New trend in America? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by nfk ( 570056 ) on Sunday February 09, 2003 @07:55AM (#5263652)
    It's an interesting change in the equation involving security and freedom; prior to September 11th, measures like this and the concentration of intelligence in one big department, and even things like the patriotic acts, would have been much more impopular. I live in a country (Portugal, in Europe) where citizens get an ID card when they are around 12. That would probably be considered inadequate and an invasion of privacy in the United States, but partly driven by the fear brought by the terrorist attacks and maybe also as a window of opportunity that politicians have taken advantage of, it is happening. I wonder what the sentiments of the majority of the population are.
    • It's an interesting change in the equation involving security and freedom

      Welcome to Politics. Where people use just about anything to get what they want, with absolutely no respect for anyone else. For example, if a noteable shooting happens, the anti-gun lobby will sieze on that incident and use it to push their own agenda. Just like the incidents on Sept 11 are being used to push for these systems. They are not a reaction to any potential terrorist threat, certain people have been wanting these things for years. They are merely manipulating the public into thinking that it is neccessary. Democracy starts to fail when the government has the power to manipulate the public.

      Do you think the souls who perished that day would be happy about the increasingly hypocritical "Land of the Free" turning into a police state? Where all your movements and communications are logged for all time? Where you are afraid to critizise the governent because it will increase your "terrorist rating" score on some automated system? Is that what "USA" means nowadays?

      I am sorry, my American cousins, but your country is sliding down the crapper big time. It no longer stands for what it's supposed to, and it is a complete mockery of your constitution.

  • This isn't going to make the US (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 09, 2003 @08:07AM (#5263680)
    any safer. Remember that the 911 terrorists had valid Saudi (and other) papers. This scheme would not have saved any lives had it been implemented before 911.

    It smells like pork barrel to me.
    • any safer. Remember that the 911 terrorists had valid Saudi (and other) papers. This scheme would not have saved any lives had it been implemented before 911.


      It smells like pork barrel to me.

      Good point. Making it harder for legal aliens isn't the answer, but it gets votes and makes them look like they care.

      Our freedom is, and always has been, due to the citizens, not the government. When I fly (a few times per year) I don't think about how the gubmint is protecting me, I look around at my fellow passengers. Not of fear or see who looks "arab", but so I can see who is going to help if things go wrong. I would rather be on a plane with a dozen construction workers from Philly than a plane full of gubmint agents.
    • This doesn't solve any problem but it can be part of the solution.

      There are over 10 million illegal aliens in the U.S. Most of them are overstays. The government needs to check on foreigners every now and then to see if they're still legal. They didn't use to and still dont, that's why you have so many now. If they don't, the people will find a way to survive here illegally.

      So what can the government do to/for the 10 million aliens? Many of which are hard working individuals that pay taxes. If the govenment gives Amnesty, then that only encourages more people to overstay or cross the border illegally.

      Also, as long as there is that great a economic disparity between Mexico and the United States, Mexicans will continue to find ways to come here. Unless the US puts up a wall, they'll keep sneaking in. There were talks of giving Mexicans identification cards so they could work, open bank accounts, etc. in the U.S. Talks were progressing well until 9-11. President Vicente Fox and the Mexicans are happy with Bush right now.

      First, the government should issue these cards to all foreigners and keep a tab on them. They've put the laws in the books, we'll see how well they enforce it. They also need to cooperate with Mexico. The IRS, INS and FBI need to combine databases properly. They can check for terrorists, watch flow of money, make sure to illegals are working, etc. Then, after a few years with better situation in the border of Mexico and having the foreigner issue better handled, they should give amnesty to the illegal aliens already here that haven't committed felonies. Give them proper papers to start their process of becoming permanent residents.

      Unfortunately, that'll still be too late for me. I still find it odd that though I've been here 17 years (age 23) and I can't get my legal status fixed while some lucky bastard can win a lottery and get a green card to the U.S. The final thing they need to do is clarify the laws so that people can know how to stay in-status and all that. I've gone to several immigration lawyers and specialists and that disagree or aren't sure about things.
      • If the govenment gives Amnesty, then that only encourages more people to overstay or cross the border illegally.

        Such thinking is the best illustration of the program of protection against a "cockroach infestation", something that has alwasy been the highest priority for immigration services in U.S.

        I don't know about you, but I've left USA because I don't want to wear the "cockrach" stamp all my life and listen "our fathers have been dying to free this country". Well, "to free" from whom? From American Indians, which many nationalities have been just extincted thanks to "freedom fighter"?

        I know, many americans have still good brains and sould, clear from TV propaganda. But many are already lost cases. They are just eating-sleeping-working voters and all those immigration changes are to take their votes, not to make any security.

        Besides, what makes them think that new tech will help to trace a suicide terrorrists? I don't think that any suicide terrorrist has any plans to come to USA more than once - at least not at this life :)

        • "I don't know about you, but I've left USA because I don't want to wear the "cockrach" stamp all my life and listen "our fathers have been dying to free this country". Well, "to free" from whom?"

          The revolution wasn't quite fought to be "free". The good side is they fought for their rights as Englishmen. Back home they were seen as "Colonists" an entirely different beast that had no voice. There were also issues of religious toleration. There was also a desire to get out of European politics and detach from England, one of the most powerful countries in Europe at the time. The powers had a habit of endlessly fighting each other.

          Now the bad side. Many colonists owed debts to people back in England. Colonial involvement in the French & Indian/Seven Years War started with George Washington taking some guys out to Western Pennsylvania to defend his investment in the Ohio Land Company again the French at Ft. Duquense. In the beginning the fledgling country was rather tolerant towards the natives. The general consesus was to leave them alone or have peaceful diplomatic/trade relationships with them when possible. First strikes were NOT encouraged. The extermination came later as the United States moved towards its darker days.

          I hope that answered your question.

          • There was also a desire to get out of European politics and detach from England

            In other words, it didn't made them different from today's separatists: Kurds in Turkey and Iraq, Basks in Spain, Chechens in Russia. No need to remind Yugoslavia. The difference is that back then separatists were probably about 1% of population of the country (the part to be separated) or even less (99% were Indians).

            The extermination came later as the United States moved towards its darker days.

            Is the extermination over in United States? How about concentrational campuses for American Japanees in the time of WWII? And how about H1B - the "famous" slavery of 21st century?

            Anyway, I am glad I am out of there.

            • These are the darker days I'm refering to:) And you are right, they weren't fundamentaly different than other seperatists. Though they had the advantage of having some really sharp and well spoken guys. The Federalist papers are nothing but pure pleasure to read.

          • Colonial involvement in the French & Indian/Seven Years War started with George Washington taking some guys out to Western Pennsylvania to defend his investment in the Ohio Land Company again the French at Ft. Duquense.

            And those horrid unfair "taxes without representation" were imposed to pay for this idiot war.


            Which did make the US.


            Makes you think, doesn't it.


            Or maybe not.

        • Yeah...that's seriously surprised me. The one thing that could have stopped 9-11 still hasn't been implemented; installing locked metal doors to the aircraft cockpits. Lots of privacy invading, right-depriving laws have been passed, but the one thing which would have had any effect hassn't been implemented.

          Now isn't that at the very least curious?

      • There are over 10 million illegal aliens in the U.S. Most of them are overstays. The government needs to check on foreigners every now and then to see if they're still legal.
        Nice idea. So, you're introducing the national identity card (with obligation to register residence and Frence style "controle d'identite" by the police) when?



      • First, the government should issue these cards to all foreigners and keep a tab on them.

        (I feel like an idiot for replying to the same comment twice).


        You do realize that "cards for foreigners" is only useful if "natives" have cards too. Otherwise how will la Migra tell the difference between you and some smelly mex who threw his card away?

        • Well, natives have something called a birth certificate. They can also get social security cards. They stopped issuing them for foreigners and they get different types of cards.

          The government has not wanted to overview or spy on the public. This is understandable. But this has led to the millions of overstays. Without changing policies and enforcing them, millions more will come and overstay.

          • Well, natives have something called a birth certificate. They can also get social security cards

            So the foreigners have hard to forge ID cards while the natives have nice easy to copy birth certificates.


            Still a little problem there.


            By the way, I'm a resident alien in a country where I have to carry an identity card. This only makes sense because the natives have to have cards too, and the police have the right to ask for your card when they feel like it.


            I just don't see how "identity cards for foreigners" can work without going the whole way.

            • Maybe it can't. Personally, I'm not opposed to a National card. However, I do think keeping track of foreigners is important and to do so, each one needs identification. Having many overstays who work illegally is not good. I have plenty of family that have overstayed (tourists and student visas) and are working illegally. They both deprive their native country of talent and lower wage standards in the U.S. Probably, they would prefer to be here illegally than risk having a different system where they would not be here. But I think overall, it's in the best interests of students and visitors (as well as the US and other nations) for the US to have a defined and strong system instead of an ineffective and chaotic INS system.
  • During a trip to an INS regional office, I was briefly shown the green card printing machine. (The cards aren't green and they look similar to a drivers licence.)

    Taped to the window was a very official looking green card for a Mrs. Janet Reno.

    • During a trip to an INS regional office, I was briefly shown the green card printing machine. (The cards aren't green and they look similar to a drivers licence.)


      Taped to the window was a very official looking green card for a Mrs. Janet Reno.


      So the system is for aliens not from this planet, too?
  • Once someone steals your identity, you can't change it like a PIN. So, if it has a loophole, you are fuX0Red.

    <OBKARMAWHORETHROUGHUSINGDUMBFAKETAGS>
    <OBCONSP IRACY>
    Of course, no one touting this technology will say this in their marketing to governments. They'll just say it's perfect security.
    </OBCONSPIRACY>

    <OBKARMAWHORETHROUGHFUNNYMODS>
    <OBKARMAWHORETHR OUGHREFERENCETOPIRACY>
    Thinking about it, conspiracy was brought to you by the words "con", and "piracy".
    </OBKARMAWHORETHROUGHREFERENCETOPIRACY>
    </OBKARMAWHORETHROUGHFUNNYMODS>
    </OBKARMAWHORET HROUGHUSINGDUMBFAKETAGS>
  • The machines foiled a variety of sophisticated counterfeit attempts, officials said. Inspectors spotted cards on which the front photograph was changed to match the impostor, but the photograph encrypted in the back was still of the original person.

    So remember folks, if the PATRIOT act 2 is passed, using encryption to change the ID picture will give you 5 years in jail on top of whatever other penelty! Hooray!

  • A new target for distributed computing (Score:3, Interesting)

    by supersat ( 639745 ) on Sunday February 09, 2003 @09:02AM (#5263832)
    From reading the article, it appears that the information on the card isn't stored in a central database, but is instead stored directly on the card in an encrypted form. Imagine the chaos if the encryption algorithm and key were discovered. Free entry for everyone!
  • ...of that old Visa commercial, where the slightly shady-looking trenchcoat-wearing (stereotype - damn you Visa) guy walks into a futuristic supermarket, is tailed by the security guard, and walks around stuffing shit into his coat. And then as he's leaving, he's scanned, charged, and the guard reminds him to not forget his receipt.

    Sorry, that's just immediately what it made me think of. Huge lines of people just stepping through biometric authenticator portals, being scanned, and shipped off on their way. Why don't they just put the freaking chip in the backs of our heads?


  • This project has been in the works for almost 10 years, starting with the INS Accellerated Passenger Program (INSPASS) that used hand-geometry encoded as OCR-A text on a credit-card.

    Some time after that project, fingerprints were coupled with photos to track illegal aliens as they came across the border. So someone who got caught in El Paso would come up on the system in San Deigo.

    I believe that was back in 1995 when I worked on those contracts.

  • UK got there first (Score:4, Funny)

    by panurge ( 573432 ) on Sunday February 09, 2003 @09:20AM (#5263923)
    The UK has been using biometrics for immigration controls for many years. Immigration uses an advanced system known as "skin color recognition".

    You're white - welcome to Britain!

    • Plus they know you're British if you complain about it raining, complain about returning to Britain... or in my case (before the EU relaxed the borders) when my Mum and I returned from Les Mans 24 hour race weekend without a passport, but with French road signs half covered up with blankets in the car (our friends got drunk on the last night armed with screwdrivers and saws, it was bizarre getting out of our tent to find yourself staring at a 'Neuvy-En-Champagne 2km' sign!)... UK immigration/customs just laughed and lets us straight through!

  • From the article:
    Even if the system is perfected and put in place at every crossing, officials acknowledged, it could not prevent every illegal entry because it now only takes into account Mexican citizens, American permanent residents and Canadian residents.
    Great, clamp down hard on lesser offenses, like Mexicans sneaking in, and let the terrorists continue to use ordinary paperwork to enter the country. Any new measures should be evenly applied to *everyone* crossing the border, including alleged U.S. citizens, and not just North American aliens and alien residents.
  • It seems as if the American government actually WANTS its 9 million illegal immigrants to drive down wages, suck up welfare disproporationately (bankrupting state governments like California), and completely change the demographics of the country to minority-white within decades.

    They will spend millions of dollars on ID cards to hassle the honest immigrants, while thousands invade through our porous border every year. The only thing they should be spending money on right now is higher walls and more border guards, not ID cards.

    In fact, it's gotten so bad, we should use the money to send our troops to the US-Mexico border before instead of Iraq. America is overpopulated as it is, and we don't need ILLEGAL immigration turning us into a third world country.

    Economic Costs of Illegal Immigration [population...search.org]

  • big deal (Score:2, Interesting)

    by the_2nd_coming ( 444906 )
    it is an imigration tool. if you are here on a temporary visa then you should be tracked while you are in the country....why should a visa holder be trusted? yes I sound paranoid but think about it...if you let strange people into your house everyday so they can use the phone or the bathroom would you not watch them to make sure they actualy go in the bathroom and watch them while they are on the phone?

    • Re:big deal (Score:1, Informative)

      by UnConeD ( 576155 )
      Yet another American who doesn't realise what a big hassle it is to get into your country. Did you know someone who applies for a green card has to give away all his rights at contestation? Are you even aware of the big friggin signs at immigration offices which 'friendily' remind the immigrant of the penalty of assaulting a federal officer, including verbal assault? Of course, combined with the fact that you have no rights at contestation, this means that if you don't say the right things, you are assaulting an officer. I can tell you, stepping off the airplane and immediately being reminded of criminal charges should you do something wrong does NOT make you feel welcome. And boy, don't the immigration people know this. Everyone in that airport who wore a uniform spoke to me in a smug schoolteacher kind of voice as if I was a stupid outsider whose only smart move ever was to come to the US in the first place (land of enlightment of course!), so maybe there was some hope for me after all. One hour to go from airplane door to airport door, and we didn't have to wait for our luggage. Sounds like a fun way to start a relaxing holiday huh?
      • you are a little to sensitive. I tel you want...get rid of the soldures with semi-automatic weapons in your air ports and we will take our signs down.

        IU think those signs are doing you a favor...it is giving you fair warning about the rules. if I was verbaly abusive to the border guards when I come across the border to canada, I would get my ass sent back to the US and if I got abusive with the border guards coming back the the US, I would get thrown in prison and my car would be taken appart down to the pistons. every one gets treaded like a moron coming across the border pal, even US citizens coming back into the country.

        • ...get rid of the soldures with semi-automatic weapons in your air ports

          What kind of fucking wimpy, nay even gay, country has soldiers armed with semi-automatic weapons in air ports. We butch European countries insist on Full-automatic weapons, preferably with big magazines. Excuse me, now I have to go in to a darkened room to calm down. Nurse!
    • Why should US people going in other country be trusted ? Let us force the US have biometric Visa and passeport with finger print, saliva sample, skin and DNA sample, hair sample all on a chip, face recognition on 100 points etc... How would you think the US epople would react that the EU ask that from them ? I seriously doubt that most of you would accept this lightly without heavy protest.

  • Good. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by d_engberg ( 226359 ) on Sunday February 09, 2003 @10:32AM (#5264297)
    National borders have used identification credentials (passports) with a second-factor biometric (photographs) for decades. The difference is that the old biometric was analog, and was performed manually by a customs agent, and the new one is digital.

    The slashdot crowd should get up in arms about places where biometrics are used where governments/corporations have no right or requirement of knowing exactly who you are. Disneyland shouldn't need my fingerprint to sell me a ride on Magic Mountain.

    Border crossings are a case where the governments absolutely SHOULD know exactly who you are. That's the entire point of something like a passport, and a second or third authentication factor will only help make this identification more accurate.

    This is a completely separate issue from whether those resulting biometrics should be stored in a linked database that is accessible for law enforcement. This should be addressed through legislation, or biometrics should be chosen that would not directly help in law enforcement (e.g. iris scans, hand geometry, etc.).
    • Well, if you have a look at the form DS-157 [1] (supplement application for getting a Visa for the US) i'm sort of scared. They really want to know a lot, like my former rank in the forces? Special education in firearms, nuclear and biological warfare? All males in the age from 16-45 are obliged to fill this one out. But come on, be honest: the real bad guys will lie in that form, won't they? And the innocent will be punished for stupidity if they fill out something wrong? Is it really necessary for the US government to know who my last two former employers were?

      Anyway: I'm neither a US citizen nor a US resident, but stuff like that seems to be common in all over the world since 911.

      Alex.

      [1] http://travel.state.gov/DS-0157.pdf
      • Absolutely, but these issues are separate from the question of whether a digital biometric should be represented on passport/border/identification documents.


      • But come on, be honest: the real bad guys will lie in that form, won't they?

        Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the communist party?


        Of course you'll lie if you should say yes, but THEY WANT YOU TO - it's the lie that lets them deport (or imprison) you. If you answer yes then you don't get the visa, if you answer no then you do time. Simple.

    • The bad news about biometric ID has been thoroughly discussed on slashdot. Someone pointed out here that the encrypted data for the ID is on the card itself. How long before the l33t s3cr1t crypto is broken?

      The other point is that the 9/11 terrorists had perfectly valid papers.

      If biometric ID on border IDs gives you a warm, fuzzy feeling, that makes one of us.

      I think Osama's boys are laughing, and the joke is on us.

  • Zap (Score:1)

    by asobala ( 563713 )
    The cool thing about biometric-based ID systems is they can be completely automated. A TV camera and a laser - if someone approaches and their retina is not on file, zap!

    Maybe not such a good idea on second thoughts.
  • Took metal shop in high school, got a B.

    Drove a blue nissan for awhile, but then started working at the A&P and moved up to a Fury III.

    Enjoys long walks on the beach.

  • Just the term 'law-abiding citizens' means only the law applies to us who follow the law. Criminals and terrorists need not apply. I am married to a foreign national, from an allied country at that, and the amount of cost in terms of time and money for my wife to live in the U.S. is ridiculous. Now they want her biometric info? Sheesh.

    I have no problem with people coming to the U.S. - but if you want to come in, have some patience, fill out the paper work and stand in line like everyone else. Just ask a legal immigrant about the fairness of letting anyone in. A lot of people moved here to get AWAY from the criminal element, only to discover that the criminals can just walk in!

    Other things created to make us 'safe':

    - Gun Control (the biggest joke)
    - Curent flying regulations with respect to security
    - Printing the California Driver's handbook in 107 different languages.....

    Common Sense is no longer on the books......

  • I waited almost 18 months for my adjustment interview that approved me for a green card. I'm still waiting for that precious piece of plastic a whole 12 months later which means I will be visting my local field office soon and queuing for hours on end just to get another "temporary evidence of lawful residence" stamp in my passport.

    When I got my drivers license it took me less than an hour and my license was printed in 10 minutes. It's the same technology.

    Rather than wasting time on this pointless new system the INS should be spending money on getting itself organised, and chasing down illegal immigrants.

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