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Updating Quickbooks Forces Online Membership? 462

garyebickford asks: "I've been using Quickbooks 2001 for a long time, sending out invoices via email. A couple of months ago it asked if I wanted to do an online update - these occurred occasionally and I agreed. There was no information regarding what the update would do, although IIRC there was some mention of 'new features' and 'improvements'. Since that time, it is now impossible to either fax or email an invoice without signing up for Quickbook's 'Online Business Member' program since it appears to use their own mail server. Membership is free for now, but the required click-agreement forces me to agree in advance to any future fees! I have no interest in letting Intuit know about my invoices and other financial information. As a result, this software is essentially useless and I must find a new accounting package. I've looked at various OSS packages but haven't found one that has developed far enough to use in this way. But there are many out there and I haven't kept up to date, so maybe someone else out there can suggest something. I'd prefer using it on Linux, of course. I'd also be interested if this loss of functionality would be sufficient to consider a class action suit to recover costs of conversion." The issue at hand is that commercial software has started to force consumers to fall into such schemes to maintain features that they already had. Today it is Quickbooks, but what about tomorrow?
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Updating Quickbooks Forces Online Membership?

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  • by otis wildflower ( 4889 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @04:33PM (#4839690) Homepage
    .. Largely because it's good enough for what I need, and it runs in OS X. There's annoying bugs (print to PDF, then attach to email, since they haven't kept up with Jaguar's Mail api), but I don't have to go sign up for no dumbass thing to use it.

    Also, TimeSlice for OS X is very nice, it itemizes your billing time (if you bill per hr) and exports it into CSV..

    There's also AccountEdge for OS X, but it's overkill and overpriced for my simple needs.

    Is there anything comparable for Xwindows? Good Q..
  • Workaround (Score:3, Informative)

    by yesman ( 72063 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @04:33PM (#4839692) Homepage
    Use a program like PDFmailer [pdfmailer.com] to send quotes and such.
    • by Anonymous Coward
      Use a free pdf print driver and print the quote from quickbooks to pdf, then send to client. I agree this quickbooks change sucks, but while you're looking for a replacement this should work fine, it has for me.
    • Re:Workaround (Score:5, Interesting)

      by 1u3hr ( 530656 ) on Monday December 09, 2002 @12:01AM (#4841975)
      Another workaround:
      Can you force it to use your SMTP server of choice? Look in the exe and its other files for a string that looks like a mail server, (say smtp.quickbooks.com). If you find that, go to your hosts file and make a line
      smtp.quickbooks.com aa.bb.cc.dd
      where aa.bb.cc.dd is the IP of the mailserver you want to use (eg on your ISP). No guarantee but worth a try. If it really is SMTP, then the commands to send should be universal.

      Otherwise, as the above poster, create a PDF and email it yourself -- there are free ways. It's not difficult to work out automated methods if you have any volume.

  • by kaxman ( 466911 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @04:34PM (#4839697) Journal
    ...and I'm not even a "business" customer. I like to hunt up old versions of programs, especially older shareware stuff that I might use a couple times a year, simply because it isn't as 'crippled' as today's version, or because nowadays the company making it requires that you give them a valid email and a reason for being interested in the software. And I'm not talking about finding old programs because they're easier to find cracks for; I actually do pay and have paid for many programs I find useful, and send money along fairly frequently for the free programs that deserve it. But for stuff that just strives to annoy, I'm having none of it.
    • by ryochiji ( 453715 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @04:50PM (#4839826) Homepage
      I wonder if tying in of software with (potentially non-free) online services is a transition phase in changes in the software paradigm. It seems like M$ (and others) are starting to look at software as services, potentially bringing it all online at some point. By tying in stand alone software with online services, I wonder if vendors are trying to blur the line between stand alone software packages and online services.
      • If they treat it that way I swear to all that is good I'll write my own. Software should not, with few exceptions perhaps, be a service. That's awful. I can see it now, pay-per-page Word usage. I still use Windows, entirely for games, but every day I get closer to dual-booting.

        I pay for the software, just like I pay for...I don't know...a stereo. I can open up the stereo and tinker with it, but it is already illegal for me to do that with software. I don't even own software that I buy nowadays.

        Boy, the free-software ideal seems more and more attractive with every day that passes.
  • Easy (Score:3, Funny)

    by unterderbrucke ( 628741 ) <unterderbrucke@yahoo.com> on Sunday December 08, 2002 @04:34PM (#4839698)
    Quickbooks 2003! [intuit.com]
  • TurboTax for 2002 (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Has a similar scheme. I find I'm forced to spend a lot of time explaining this all to clients; they sure are pissed. Open Source tax/acctng sware would be very useful. And an AOL client...
  • scary side effect (Score:5, Insightful)

    by phr2 ( 545169 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @04:36PM (#4839716)
    Having the invoices from millions of small businesses all go through the same server in the same format makes that server a VERY juicy source for the Office of Total Information Awareness. This kind of centralization has to be resisted.
    • by pongo000 ( 97357 )
      Think of the millions who use on-line bill payment services! Talk about juicy: A company could build quite a marketable portfolio about you based upon your bill-paying habits.

      Unfortunately, the masses are sucked in by the slick marketing, and never give a thought as to the middleman through which they're routing all their personal financial information.

      Can you imagine posting all of your income tax information on the web [securetax.com]? Apparently someone is willing to do this!
  • by Eric_Cartman_South_P ( 594330 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @04:36PM (#4839718)
    I own a small business (yeah, me, can you believe it?) doing productivity consulting and stuffs. Although it takes me longer than it would if things were automatic, I use SPREADSHEETS for everything financial. I own it, it's mine, and I can do what I want.

    I looked at QuickBooks, MS Money, etc and for complete control, nothing can match using spreadsheets for all the tracking, etc. One master spreadsheet for accounting gets numbers from all the other spreadsheets (sales, expenses, etc). Will I need something stronger a year or two from now? Yeah, and I'll be reading the posts right here for an idea on what I will do then. But for anyone who is a one-h@x0r shop up to a couple of employees, spreadsheets fit the bill just fine. Oh, and of course online banking (Citibank is pretty sweet and reasonable fees for corporate account).

    Good luck!

    • by kfg ( 145172 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @05:38PM (#4840125)
      And if you want to take the time and trouble you can hack spreadsheets to be just as automatic as Quicken in any modern Office Suite, like, say-Open Office. Frankly, since I understand the math involved, I'm not sure why anyone would bother with propriatary accounting systems.

      Roll your own. If you don't understand the math it will force you to learn it. In my opinion you *should* understand the math of handling your money, especially if it's a business.

      What's more, commnand line spreadsheets are readily available ( Visicalc itself is now available for download) so even people, businesses or nonprofits with little or no capital can run a spreadsheet on free antique hardware that Quicken would choke on.

      I highly recommend the book "Elements of Spreadsheet Style" by John Nevison. Out of print but available used through Amazon for under ten bucks.

      An older Edition of the classic book "Small Time Operator" known as the "Computer Edition" includes complete Visicalc code for all of your bookeeping needs. This is also available used through Amazon but will set you back twentysix bucks. Cheap price for avoiding the propriatary rat race and a hell of a book for anyone just getting started in their first business.

      KFG
      • by ergo98 ( 9391 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @05:43PM (#4840162) Homepage Journal
        Frankly, since I understand the math involved, I'm not sure why anyone would bother with propriatary accounting systems.

        And I understand how to make hash tables and red-black trees, so I don't understand why anyone would bother with RDMBS when all they need is a C compiler and the gumption to "roll their own".

        Of course that is absolutely, positively ridiculous. A complex program like Quickbooks isn't simply a couple of spreadsheets rolled together to give you a total, but is complete business management system.
    • How much software do you actually need to order some buckets of shit and hire some Mexican kids to fling it around?

  • by Thu Anon Coward ( 162544 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @04:36PM (#4839719)
    We had the same thing happen a few years ago to us. We were using it at the start of the new year wrapping up previous years finance stuff, a message came up saying that since they didn't want us to get in trouble, they were going to disable the tax tables in 30 days time so we couldn't use them. We would have to purchase new tax table info from Intuit, EVEN IF THE DAMN TAX TABLES HADN'T CHANGED!

    No tax tables makes Quickbooks about as useless as tits on a boar hog. Our CPA switched us over to Netledger at Netledger.com
    • by Jucius Maximus ( 229128 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @04:39PM (#4839755) Journal
      "No tax tables makes Quickbooks about as useless as tits on a boar hog."

      Clearly, you have never owned a boar hog ;-)

    • NetLedger Small Business Suite: $1200 per year

      Upgrades Required To Use Quickbooks Tax Tables:
      - Do-It-YourSelf Payroll: $169 per year
      - Upgrade To Current Quickbooks Version: $100 one-time

      Great CPA you have there.
      • there were a few other issues that demanded a move. but as for Netledger, we don't pay for it since he gets a special deal him being a licensed re-seller and all. and before you say anything else, Yes, I have seen my monthly CPA bills. they aren't more than they were before. one of the other problems was that QB data files were getting a bit too unwieldy to carry around or send via the Internet since we both work on the data files from different aspects. that and keeping them properly updated since we had to constantly work with them while he needed them for a few days each time. Netledger made a whole lot more sense, even if the interface can be a PITA to deal with
    • by steve_l ( 109732 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @07:39PM (#4840821) Homepage
      When people complain about MS business practices, I think these people have never used quicken. I wanted to get (UK) quicken 95 to be y2k compliant, all they would offer me was a (small) discount on a current version. Instead I acquired a friend's copy, only to discover that it was chock-a-block with 'value added services' that were essentially trying to generate sales bounties for intuit.

      I would never touch any of their products again.
    • by ONOIML8 ( 23262 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @10:01PM (#4841464) Homepage
      First they suckered you into "upgrades", then they force you into them.

      I started with Quicken. That was such a wonderful program thru about V3.0. The next couple of "upgrades" had lots of bells and whistles that seemed nice, but I got lost in the toys and wasn't paying attention to the actual accounting. Ouch.

      Then there was the matter of the "upgraded" programs crashing all the time. Sometimes I lost data, sometimes not. In any case it was a pain in the arse.

      A few years later, after I had become a *nix convert, I went to work for a small company. When I started they had zilch for an accounting system. Scraps of paper. That's no joke. So the owner hires a wiz bang accountant who promptly insists on Quickbooks.

      I yelled, screamed, jumped up and down.

      We purchased and installed Quickbooks. The accountant punched in the data and we were off and running. No sooner did we get things running and, wouldn't you know it, the network portion quits on us.

      You guessed it.....gotta buy a network license upgrade.

      So the owner takes a loan from her mom, gets the upgrade and we're back in bidness. Until tax time.

      Manditory tax "upgrade". Isn't that like a tax tax?

      So she shells out more of the green, gets the tax upgrade and everything is fine for a few more months. Or so I thought.........

      The boss calls me in and wants to know why my department is only doing 57% of goal. I look at her numbers, from Quickbooks, and they don't match my invoices. Not trusting Quickbooks I tracked my own department in spreadsheets too (StarOffice 5.2). Sure it was double the "paperwork" but it proved worth it.

      I never did find out the whole reason that Quickbooks was losing transactions. Didn't care. That's Intuit's problem, right? Not according to them it aint.

      All that money you pay them and if "nobody else is having this problem" then you get zilch, zip, nada for tech support.

      Don't get me wrong, I'm not picking on Intuit here. IMHE they are just par for the course in the windows world.

      But didn't they start out as a Mac product?

  • What about tomrrow? (Score:5, Informative)

    by nurb432 ( 527695 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @04:37PM (#4839733) Homepage Journal
    Tomorrow all commercial software will pull this sort of stunt. To get to full 'pay per use' models.

    They will have to, once the unwashed masses become technically educated enough that they realize what is going on with this constant upgrade cycle and stops buying new products since what they have 'works well enough for me'.

    The entire market is based on this deceit. and will suddenly implode..

    • by Dunkirk ( 238653 ) <david&davidkrider,com> on Sunday December 08, 2002 @09:08PM (#4841253) Homepage
      No... They're going to get most everyone moved over before people realize they've been had. Probably 3/4th's of my friends and family have computers, and there are only a handful that would even *know* the difference between owning a piece of software and "renting" it over the wire, let alone *care*. It's hopeless. Just like spam, if companies can continue to make money from practices that are - to people like Slashdot readers - basically bait-and-switch tactics, they're going to do it. All the more reason to move to OSS ASAP. Spend your money there and do without paid software. I tell you, I used to think Stallman was a certifiable nut, but the further the copyright holders take their position in today's electronic society, the more I think that his view is the only one that will stem the tide. Just say no to closed source.
  • by LL ( 20038 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @04:38PM (#4839740)
    ... where access to the customer is being treated and fungible (and thus marketable). I can point to a whole string of court cases starting with CompuServe v Cyber Promotions, Ebay v Bidder's Advantage, Intel v Hamadi, etc which have basically ruled that companies who "own" the infrastrcuture for communications effectively are private networks (think cable) and courts are relunctant to impose common-carrier, anti-competition or even anti-competition rules on them. Companies are not stupid, if they can't get lock in one way, they'll try another legit mechanism and in effect, vertically coordinate their services (software, middleware, skinware = GUI/web layout, tangleware = EULA + legal entanglements) to capture business.

    Is it legal? ... yes
    Is it proper? ... debateable
    Is it worthwhile? ... depends on the customer whether they cna get satisfaction for service

    Perhaps you should write a little letter to your fair-trading rep or competition commissioner requesting investigation into unfair trading practices based on their market power to exclude future competitors (say ASPs).

    LL
  • Try GNUcash... (Score:5, Informative)

    by chupar ( 632295 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @04:38PM (#4839741)
    I used Quickbooks a *long* time ago to help out with my father's small business. For myself, I've been using GNUcash [gnucash.org] for about a year, and I'm fairly pleased. Some of the reporting options could use some work, but it keeps track of all my data, and that's the important part. Quick look at their website indicates a new stable version is on the way, with some things that might help you, although the faxing/emailing features don't seem to be on the radar...

    - Small Business Accounting Features:
    GnuCash now can be used for Customer and Vendor tracking, Invoicing and Bill Payment,
    and using different Tax and Billing Terms in a small business.
    - OFX Import:
    GnuCash is the first free software application to support the Open Financial Exchange
    protocol that many banks and financial services are moving to use. The development of
    OFX and HBCI support has also resulted in an improved transaction matching system that
    more accurately picks duplicate transactions.
  • Forcing updates (Score:5, Informative)

    by RuXc ( 144331 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @04:38PM (#4839746)
    I am switching Quickbooks after I send out W2's this year for very similar reasons. Quickbooks will stop allowing you to do payroll if the TaxTables get too out of date. This normally wouldn't bother me, but they offer absolutely no way (that I know of) to manually enter the tax data, the payroll functionality get killed.

    To get the new TaxTables, they have really upped their subscription price to more than I think is reasonable. Also, they periodically force an update to the Quickbooks software to be able to use the new TaxTables format. So, for me to keep using Quickbooks, I would have to pay for a new (higher) TaxTable subscription and also update to a new version, which I can't justify.

    I have looked at PeachTree, and it seems very usable. It's Tax Table like subscription is about the same as Intuits (around $150), but they do allow you to manually enter details if you need to.

    I hate to see Inuit stoop to this, I really like their product. I used Quickbooks at version 5, and liked it. (I don't need any features now that version 5 didn't have). I just can't justify them doing these kind of things to customers, though.
    • My Quickbooks started bugging me about updating...it said I couldn't do any payroll functions until I updated. Unfortunately the update it download bombed every time. I was stuck. Turns out the .inf file had a 'check payroll update' line that I could change manually, and it stopped bugging me after that. I don't use the tax tables, but there might be a similar solution for your problem.
  • Try Compiere (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Read lots of good stuff about this, but as yet haven't had time to try it out. Looks like it could do what you need it to:

    http://www.compiere.org
  • AppGen MyBooks (Score:5, Informative)

    by goldid ( 310307 ) <matthew@go l d m a ninternet.com> on Sunday December 08, 2002 @04:40PM (#4839760) Homepage
    I haven't had time to fully use this yet, but I am considering purchasing: AppGen MyBooks (www.appgen.com [appgen.com]) which has a Windows/OS X/Linux accounting program. Looks nice to me.
  • Here's an idea... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by tmark ( 230091 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @04:41PM (#4839764)
    it is now impossible to either fax or email an invoice ...since it appears to use their own mail server.

    Couldn't you just do something like print the invoices to a PDF then email that through the mailer of your choice ? Sure beats having to move your operation and data to a new system, and with the convenient plus that if you want, as some do, you can always have a copy of the invoice exactly as it was printed.
    • Good idea. In fact, combine GNUCash as mentioned above with kprinter (the KDE printing panel) and you can directly mail PDF files as a "printer" device.

    • Re:Here's an idea... (Score:2, Interesting)

      by dossen ( 306388 )
      How about adding an entry to your host file, pointing the intuit mailserver to some other mailserver? That is if you are sure you want to stay with Quicken, rather than follow the advice (and good advice it is) of my fellow /.'ers and change to an oss solution.
  • It's true (Score:5, Interesting)

    by IamTheRealMike ( 537420 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @04:41PM (#4839766)
    The issue at hand is that commercial software has started to force consumers to fall into such schemes to maintain features that they already had. Today it is Quickbooks, but what about tomorrow?

    It's true actually... when I started my job back in September I was using Windows XP, and as there didn't seem to be any chance to switch to Linux coming soon I settled back into life as a Windows user, at work at least. Despite not really needing much software, I found I needed a truckload of commercial utilities to get anything done. We have a slightly dodgy connection, so a download manager that supported resuming (as neither mozilla nor IE appear to support this) was a must. On goes Download Accelerator. We need WinZip of course. Hmm, WindowBlinds FX looks nice (and it is nice). The BBC only streams in RealAudio so to save myself going insane I put on RealPlayer so I can listen to the radio while working.

    After a month or so, I realised if I could get the Adobe SVG plugin in IE working under Linux I could switch over to it, and so I got CrossOver (patched Wine to fix some bugs [sigh]) and was very happy.

    A week or so ago I rebooted into Windows, and was assaulted by raw commercialism. WindowBlinds had come to the end of its trial and popped up a window on every boot asking me to buy it. RealOne insisted on popping up adverts for its new features and offers, while cleverly not appearing to be running. WinZip of course has a nag screen whenever you run it. Download Accelerator inserts a blinking lightbulb into the system tray. It was almost physically unpleasant battering my way through all this garbage to get to what I wanted. I had become desensitised to it as I started using Windows again, then going back to it after so long was a real shock.

    After a while, you realise that seemingly every Windows app comes with some extra code whos only purpose is to try and make you spend money, or sell your eyeballs for a bit. It has nothing to do with enhancing the app, and this is true even for basic must have utilities like decompression programs and audio decoders. I wish I could suggest an alternative to Quickbooks but I don't really use programs like that. Except I know support was recently added to Wine for it.

    • Re:It's true (Score:2, Informative)

      You can use LeechFTP for FTP resuming. I think it supports HTTP downloads too.

      There are *lots* of free zip utilities. (Personally I think WinRAR is much better and worth the money).

      For an alternative to RealPlayer...hmmm. You got me there :)

      WindowBlinds makes it clear that it is a demo, so complaints about it expiring are just lame. The LiteStep devs are working on skinning, and I think I saw a WindowBlinds FX clone recently (try Shell Extension city).

      Its possible to find lots of freeware for Windows, you just have to look harder. Look at GNUWin II [gnuwin.epfl.ch] for some open source apps.

      And make sure to download Ad-Aware [lavasoftusa.com] to hunt down those evil spy programs.
    • Re:It's true (Score:3, Interesting)

      by pVoid ( 607584 )
      What are you complaining about?

      You downloaded each and everyone of those applications you call 'necessities'. *You* are the one who made the choice.

      I personally installed RealPlayer a long time ago, and then said "no thanks", and have never used it since. Same for netscape mind you. But also, until Quicktime fixed it's horrendous interface and constant nagging, I didn't use it either.

      When I setup a new Win box, I get a fixed list of administration tools for FREE (as in beer) from sysinternals.com, I get Winrar/Winzip for free with a proper nag screen that doesn't hog memory, just gently reminds you that you have been using it for the 400th consecutive day without paying. And a few open source things like wget and netcat and the like from google.

      I have yet to get nags on my screen.

      All I have to say is be careful what you complain about as a user, because what you want you just might get...

      (Stupid) People complained about "DLL Hell" for the longest time, and now we are ALL cursed with Windows File Protection - a hybrid 'security' scheme set up so that even administrators couldn't replace/delete critical files (why? because all the stupid people ran as admin).

      Complain about nagware, and who knows, maybe free stuff like Winzip and winamp will disapear too, and enter the world of Web Services.

  • Lie to them (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Qrlx ( 258924 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @04:42PM (#4839770) Homepage Journal
    Why don't you call Intuit support and come up with some reason as to why their new software won't work for you. Like your small office has only one phone line and there's no ISP in your area, or your ISP went out of business or something.

    Or maybe that you live on a boat, and you can easily send mail via USPS but to use the Internet requires a trip to the local cybercafe, since you can't get internet access on your cell phone?
    • Not to mention that many ISPs don't allow you to connect to SMTP servers other than their own, as a method of trimming back on spam. MSN, for example, is one of the major ISPs that block SMTP.
      • It would be fairly trivial for QB to get around port 25 blocking, by using an alternate port and/or encapsulating the data between QB and the Intuit server.
  • by systemapex ( 118750 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @04:45PM (#4839792)
    I purchased Quicken Deluxe about this time last year. It came with a free downloadable version of QuickTax. I decided to download and install QuickTax around January so I could get a headstart on my taxes. Around this time, I upgraded my computer and had to re-install Windows. I re-installed Quicken Deluxe no problem but when it came time to re-install QuickTax I was notified that I could not do it. A version of the software had already been installed on a different computer! I was told to call their tech support line if this was not the case. So I did. I called their non-toll-free number long distance and was notified that their office was closed and would be until Monday (this was late Friday afternoon). So, I could not do my taxes that weekend. I waited until Monday and phoned their tech support line. I had to answer some questions to verify my identity and was told that if there ever was a next time, I would have to fax them with appropriate documentation verifying my identity! So, 3 days and 2 long-distance charges later I was left with a program that would only last until my next reformat. No thanks. I will never buy another Intuit product because of stories like my own and this one. Moreover, experiences like this helped push me to going 100% Linux/OSS - I've been doing so since late August with much less problems than I expected I would have.
    • Dude, I had the same problem with OfficeXP. Microsoft's just as bad if not worse.
    • by Dirtside ( 91468 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @05:36PM (#4840116) Journal
      Look, just because the Inuit live in a relatively primitive society doesn't mean you have to denigrate them. I mean, come on, have you ever even tried seal blubber soup?

      Wait... did you mean Intuit? Oh, well, that's different then.
  • Appgen (Score:5, Informative)

    by protek ( 96543 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @04:45PM (#4839795)
    I'd suggest checking out Appgen's MyBooks,

    http://www.appgen.com/products/mybooks.html

    It works on Windows, Linux, and Mac, will import your Quickbooks data, and you can try it free for 30 days. I've downloaded it, but haven't played with it much. Maybe other Slashdoters can attest to its usefulness.

    Regards,

    Chris
  • by Kent_Franken ( 92437 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @04:49PM (#4839820) Journal
    Accpac [accpac.com] has a great accounting package that has been around in commercial distribution for many years. It was recently released for Linux [accpac.com].
  • SQL Ledger (Score:4, Informative)

    by umrguy76 ( 114837 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @04:50PM (#4839830) Homepage
    SQL Ledger [sql-ledger.org] is what I use for my small business. Granted, it's a little rough around the edges, but it's free, open-source and does everything I need it to do. I've got it on a Linux server, although it is also said to work on Windows and OS X.
  • In the 90s, it was all about getting stuff out there for free so you could develop your brand and sell services off of the back of it.

    Now we're in the 'naughties' and the free stuff is drying up fast. Companies are realizing that to get sales and results, they need to try and lock you into their systems.

    Once upon a time, banner ads worked. Now everyone's using e-mail newsletters and Flash interstitals. The connection? These forms of advertising are more intrusive, more targeted on the individual.

    It's no wonder Quicken wants people to sign up. They know people like their package, and if a few people get lost in the process.. big deal. At least they'll have several hundred thousand small business owners locked into their contract.. which ensures a tidy income for Quicken a few years down the road.
  • by swv3752 ( 187722 ) <.swv3752. .at. .hotmail.com.> on Sunday December 08, 2002 @04:52PM (#4839843) Homepage Journal
    There is Kapital [thekompany.com], but that is really more of a quicken replacement.

    Then there is Gnucash [gnucash.org], that is more a cross between quicken and quickbooks. It now has invoicing in the newest release.

    For a List of other packages... I really don't know much about those.

  • I submitted a related article in March that never got posted about QuickTax using winXP style product activation.

    I got the refund on my copy of QuickTax under their satisfaction guarantee and yelled at their poor rep on the phone for half and hour. It was convenient that they had a record of my registered copies going back to 1992 and I made it clear I'd never buy another product from them.

    I still use Quicken 5 and I never upgraded that because I didn't want to run financial software that was aware of the internet.

    Jason
  • by endquotedotcom ( 557632 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @04:54PM (#4839858) Homepage
    ...sending your rant to them, instead of /.? I'm sure a quick search would come up with OSS alternatives, but I'm sure you'd prefer to stick with what you're used to. If you emailed them, and then followed up with a phone call to voice your concerns, I'm sure you wouldn't be the only one. If they become aware that some users actually do read their click-throughs, changing their ways would set a precedent for other companies.
    • Yep, i was wondering that, too. Except I wouldn't start off with a rant. :) Maybe give them a link here...

      I agree this sort of game is offensive and damaging. They should try to make good for your reasonable understanding that you weren't sacrificing functionality in exchange for the upgraded features.

      But customer service does occasionally ... serve. Good luck, and next time take your dollers elsewhere to a more ethical company ... that is, until they pull the same stunt ... but you won't be suckered twice, will you?

      I avoid upgrades for as long as possible on the Luddite theory "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
  • I am also very skeptical of Microsoft's rental scheme and the "one big application" motto which the Win32 world is heading where each application is an additional component with a monthly access fee.

    These schemes sound like the rent-to-own scams that were popular a decade ago where customers paid 4x times the worth of various products through rental schemes. If you rented a couch for example through rent=to-own and refused to pay anymore, you would lose the couch and pay a fine for breaking the contract and all the money you invested already in it is gone. Most customers just paid through the roof so they would not lose there invested money and still retain good credit. However with proprietary file formats you lose all your data if you decide to not use the application anymore. In other words your screwed.

  • Whoa, here... (Score:2, Redundant)

    by NineNine ( 235196 )
    You're talking about using their servers for a service. If course you're gonna have to pay. Just because you didn't pay in the past doesn't mean that you won't have to later. You're not entitled to use their servers for free. I use Quickbooks daily, and I can press print and drop a PO or an invoice on a fax machine just fine. I can also export and email 'em if I really, really want to. You're paying for the convenience of using their service. Nobody said you *had* to use their service at all.
    • Re:Whoa, here... (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Hehe sure. Wait until you get nailed with your payroll feature locked down unless you pay for tax tables from them. THey did this in the Canadian version - no pay, then no payroll feature, it becomes disabled and no way to manually use it or manually update your tax rates.
    • Re:Whoa, here... (Score:2, Informative)

      by rollingcalf ( 605357 )
      The problem is that they *are* trying to force you to use their service, by gradually removing features that previously would run on your standalone PC.
  • I helped a customer migrate from an ancient version of ACCPAC for DOS (Computer Associates product) to Quickbooks 99, and the upgrade to 2000. During the upgrade to 2000, we notices a much stricter set of rules for use, registration (which has always been over the top), and even simple networking of multiple systems. And the updates process was a nightmare, with more hoops to jump through than a Sigfreid and Roy show. When the customer bought 2001, and brought me back in to upgrade, the noose tightened further. Despite having several hundred dollars invested in QB over the years, I recommended heavily that they find another product to move to, because I could see how harshly Intuit was trying to keep it's small business accounting marketshare. Despite the cost and commplexity of Peachtree, I did recommend that over QB again, or moving off of a Windows based platform altogether. I still recomend this to all small businesses. Intuit is no longer the good Quicken company they were...
  • by Hollins ( 83264 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @05:03PM (#4839913) Homepage

    This message was recently posted to alt.comp.financial.quicken. It appears Turbotax 2002 may be installing and starting a spyware service without any notice. I just checked my machine, where I installed Turbotax last week, and indeed, this service is running:

    --
    Recently I found a running Service named C-DillaCdaC11BA on my Windows XP Pro system. Being an individual interested with Internet Security (viruses, etc), I naturally became concerned that my system may have become compromised. Starting my investigation revealed the associated file (called "CDAC11BA.EXE") located in the Windows\System32\Drivers directory. In addition, I found a hidden directories under the C drive. This first directory was named C_DILLA" and below it was a directory named "SafeCast Product Licenses". Contained within this directory was a single file called "BD6FD000.DAT".

    I traced the dates/times the files and directories were created to the same date/time I had installed this years version of Intuit's TurboTax. This is interesting because last year's version of TurboTax did not install this application and nowhere in this year's installation did it make mention of installing it, a third-party application that attempts to hide itself and runs as an additional service! A search of Google for C-DILLA revealed the following article, entitled "C-Dilla! "Copy Protection or Spyware?". It's located at http://www.tswn.com/modules/news/article.php?item_ id=45 [tswn.com]

    Nowhere on Intuit's website does it offer a description of this service or appropriate removal instructions. Is it really copyright protection or is Intuit utilizing spyware with their latest version of TurboTax?

    • by Anonymous Coward
      C-Dilla is a software-lock copy protection scheme. It's like a software based dongle. 3ds max has been using C-Dilla since version 4.

      It isn't spyware and no spyware finding software (that I am aware of) will report it as installed spyware.

      Without the C-Dilla service running any program that authenticates through it will fail to start.
    • by Fable ( 136371 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @06:12PM (#4840346)
      SafeCast is a copy protection scheme. A company I recently worked for used SafeCast to regulate the usage of pre-release software - we made video games, and when we sent a pre-release version of our game to a member of the press (for a preview), SafeCast would require that the user register with our license server in order to preview the game. That way, we could see exactly who was playing what, and where. If the disc ended up in someone elses hands (this was a no-no), we could trace it back to the original user. If the user did not register, they could not use the software.

      So, does intuit track your usage? probably. That is exactly what we used it for.
  • by LucidityZero ( 602202 ) <sometimesitsalex.gmail@com> on Sunday December 08, 2002 @05:03PM (#4839915) Homepage
    1. Create popular software program
    2. Sell popular software program
    3. Force fees on users after the fact
    4. ????
    5. Profit!!!

    Actually, I guess in this cause you can skip number 4 entirely. :)
  • We use quickbooks at work, at I was excited when they went to an online version... great, I don't need Windows to run the client anymore. Wrong.

    The new web version requires Windows. Yes, Windows. Not even Mac users can use it. It uses ActiveX for no apperent reason. All of the functionality could have easily been done in HTML with a tiny bit of JS. But they made ActiveX a requirement.

    If it's so obviously unnecessary, why would they limit their available customers and produce a seperate Mac version? Here's why.

    Quickbooks want's to be an ASP. It's in fashion. They start to design a web version. Microsoft threatens them (because it's in fashion), as there are millions of computers that payed $300 for Windows just so they can run Quickbooks on top of it. Quickbooks ensures Windows will still be required, by an ActiveX dependency.

    Microsoft maintains monopoly. User gets screwed.
  • In other Intuit news, I've been a TurboTax user for about 4-5 years (both federal and state). Since they're putting in 'Product Activation' this year, now I have to figure out which competitor to use.

    You'd think they'd learn that this crap is losing customers.
  • I have had my taste of intuit for a while now. I use plain old Quicken. They mislead you with 'extreme prejudice' into thinking you need the online junk. Its part of the install. You never click cancel during the install right? But you gotta know when the install is over and the garbage begins...

    In any event, you can usually get the updates from their website if you are 'Sherlock' enough. Thus, you don't have to use the auto- weputyourfinancialinfointoourbagoftricks update junk.

    Of course this is with Quicken and YMMV.

    I just can't believe you have to do _anything_ online to use your non-online software.

    Perhaps they subverted you into using an online version? I think intuit has online versions of all their money packages and sometimes the offline versions turn themselves into web-forwarders to the online versions if you are not careful.

    Why in the living HELL would I wan't to _PUT_ my money online????? I mean my whole portfolio? I simply can't imagine why.
  • This is nothing... (Score:5, Informative)

    by Locky ( 608008 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @05:10PM (#4839956) Homepage
    After losing information crucial to QuickBooks operation (ex-wife) I reinstalled QB99 on a new machine and called Intuit for my serial keys only to find out they don't support calls related to any product over 2 years old. They refused to give me my keys (which they had on file) and essentially forced me to fork out $400 for a new version of QuickBooks. Somwhere along the line they also threathened to take me to court after I demanded they give me what I legally own. Needless to say I will never buy an Intuit product again and encourage others to do the same.
  • by mbstone ( 457308 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @05:13PM (#4839974)
    ...you'd have known all about Intuit's anti-consumer practices months ago:

    Twist in Intuit's crippleware techniques doubles the cost of its tax-table service (4/27/01) [infoworld.com]

    Intuit is up to its old tricks: Adding taxing burdens on its QuickBooks clients (3/17/00) [infoworld.com]

    There is another column by Foster -- the #1 and only consumer IT columnist of whom I am aware -- on the practice of making QuickBooks users transmit invoices using Intuit's servers but you'll have to find it yourself.
  • I'd have to recommend Peachtree over many other accounting apps out there. Although it has a slight learing curve it's very powerful and reliable.

    It is unfortunate that Intuit is alienating its customers to the point of them turning to other accounting apps. When that happens most companies tend to migrate to the most visable Platform out there, which is usually Microsoft. It wouldn't suprise me if in two years Intuit Sues Microsoft for being a accounting software monopoly instead of Intuit listening to their own customers and giving them what they want.
  • zerg (Score:3, Funny)

    by Lord Omlette ( 124579 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @05:26PM (#4840041) Homepage
    I have no interest in letting Intuit know about my invoices and other financial information.
    Only a terrorist would not be willing to share their personal financial data with a good, honest, patriotic company like Intuit. You're not a terrorist... are you?
  • This story highlights one thing I've always said: When it comes to a 'mission-critical' system, you should always always always have a fallback plan in case the current system lets you down.
    That goes as much for home accounting as it does for the space shuttle's life support.
    There is a difference between using a computer system and relying on one. As soon as you rely on it, you open yourself up to disaster if it stops being reliable.
    In most cases, you don't have to actually buy the alternative solution straight up; the important thing is being prepared for a situation where you might need it.
  • Why upgrade? (Score:5, Informative)

    by pla ( 258480 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @05:33PM (#4840087) Journal
    I really do not understand people's "need" to always have the newest version of a program.

    I upgrade *ONLY* when I encounter either a major bug (meaning "uncircumventable") in what I already have, or what I have simply cannot do what I need it to.

    For my web-surfing machine, I run W2K. I will *not*, *ever*, upgrade to XP simply because it doesn't do anything "new". Perhaps I will need to upgrade to the next version of Windows someday, but considering Microsoft's (and most companys') release habits, I doubt I'll need to for at least a few more versions. Hell, I only upgraded from NT4 because it had poor PNP and high-end multimedia support (which I don't really consider a "good" reason, technologically speaking, but when I couldn't run 90% of modern games or get any new hardware, I didn't have much choice). Before NT4, I used DOS (the entire Win95 line quite simply sucked, and amazingly, seemed to get progressively *worse*, not better).

    For email, I use Calypso (well, mostly, I use Elm, but for my junkmail account I find it easier to get it via POP and just let the nice filters strip out 99% of the spam). Calypso, for those who don't know it, still uses a text-only interface (basic support for HTML/RTF, but the only email I get in HTML consists of spam, so I don't really care 'bout that).

    For compiling under windows, I still use Borland C++ 5. I suspect I'll have to upgrade when 64-bit chips hit the mainstream in a year or two, but at the moment, that 6-year-old compiler does the job just as well as anything I could go out and buy today.

    The "solution" here seems obvious. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

    Don't get me wrong, I have no strong love for "retro" computing (except classic console video game emulation ). But of the programs I regularly use, not a single one has made any real improvement in half a decade.

    And now, we see companies moving toward *decreased* functionality in their programs, along with non-permanant licenses to use them. Explain how that benefits me?
    • Re:Why upgrade? (Score:3, Insightful)

      I upgrade *ONLY* when I encounter either a major bug (meaning "uncircumventable") in what I already have, or what I have simply cannot do what I need it to.
      That's all well and good until you start dealing with programs like accounting packages. These programs using tax tables and rules that need to be up to date to even function. If you don't update them then the program dies. The problem then comes if the "update" removed functionality that already existed in the old version.
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Why they never will make a Linux port, because they worry about the reputation Linux has for being Open Source, and also because we're percieved at being a minute userbase, especially on the Desktop.

    Hopefully this makes sense...never good to post on Slashdot... ...When tired that is :).
  • by gatch ( 632444 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @05:56PM (#4840249)
    It's about 6 months old, but here is an article you may find useful on Linux Accounting systems. I am in the process of completing part 2 which should be available soon: http://l4sb.com/portalarticle_search
  • by paynter ( 8696 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @06:18PM (#4840381) Homepage
    And everyone called him a radical.
  • SQL Ledger and Nola (Score:3, Informative)

    by nurb432 ( 527695 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @06:41PM (#4840496) Homepage Journal
    Both solid, and useable, although still in process of development so they arent perfect..
  • by D. Book ( 534411 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @07:39PM (#4840819)
    Intuit's sister program, Quicken, is headed down the same course. Here's the situation with the Australian version of Quicken 2002, which is produced by the local distributor Reckon:

    1) Forced registration and machine-specific activation, or the program stops running after X times.
    2) Forced collection of personal details during registration. In fact, if you just tell it your phone number, their automated system will tell you your address (unless you have an unlisted number).
    3) Forced telephone reactivation upon reinstallation. You can't reactivate over the Internet (this only works for the first installation).
    4) No right to sell your legitimate, boxed copy of the software to someone else if you no longer wish to use it (Kapital is the same in this regard, despite the company's claims).

    If you give them a fake name and address, you'd better remember them, otherwise you won't be able to reactivate. And, for your information, there is no QUICKEN.INI workaround in the Australian version, and no "cracks" available.

    Don't be surprised if us Aussies are a test market for this, and the rest of the world is next. I switched to GnuCash, but as far as I can tell, most other users have been perfectly willing to take it up the arse.
  • by ChaoticLimbs ( 597275 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @08:00PM (#4840915) Journal
    I used to do tech support for the Quickbooks and Quickbooks Pro line back in version 4+5. At that time they were a very fun, if low-paying job to have. They moved their entire operations to Tucson, AZ. They closed down the center in Rio Rancho, NM. They catered a big luncheon in a tent and sent all the temps home. The rest of us had to work 90 days more to get our severance pay. I always thought it was an odd way to announce a closure. Other than that, though, I always thought it was a great company. My supervisor, Travis Wheeler, even shaved his head on site after losing a bet. (kinda a dumb stunt, but he's at least honest when he loses a bet he shouldn't have made). He also got us some Nerf Crossbows so we could entertain ourselves by foam-fragging each other in the middle of important calls. I never saw them use this kind of method before. I don't approve. I will say, though, that QB is a great product, but Peachtree has really progressed since 1997 and should probably be checked out as a result of this new tactic. Sorry, Intuit. It was great while it lasted, but only Microsoft could get away with this kind of noncompetitive crap.
  • by el_chicano ( 36361 ) on Sunday December 08, 2002 @08:02PM (#4840928) Homepage Journal
    If you are willing to move your accounting over to a webapp, check out NOLA [noguska.com]. It uses PHP and MySQL and is free and GPLed. I looked at it a few months ago and it seemed promising, I need to grab the current code and see how it looks now...
  • by onyxruby ( 118189 ) <onyxruby&comcast,net> on Sunday December 08, 2002 @08:57PM (#4841193)
    The following tells quicken it's registered. Just copy and past into a text file, rename as a .reg and merge with registry. Walaa, Quicken thinks it's registered. Did I just break the DMCA?


    For other than XP:


    [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Intuit\QAgent\Guide \C :|Program Files|QUICKENW|INET|COMMON|QCHANNEL.DAT]
    "AppID"= "1"
    "AppName"="Quicken for Windows"
    "AppVer"="11.0.0.0"
    "Enable"="Yes"
    "Mo de"="Idle"
    "SubAppID"="2"


    For Windows XP"


    [HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\TypeLib\{4E2B30D0-E0A2-11D2-9 E1 1-00105A26F05D}]
    [HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\TypeLib\{4E2B 30D0-E0A2-11D2-9E1 1-00105A26F05D}\1.0]
    @="Quicken 1.0 Type Library"
    [HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\TypeLib\{4E2B30D0-E0A 2-11D2-9E1 1-00105A26F05D}\1.0\0]
    [HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\TypeLib \{4E2B30D0-E0A2-11D2-9E1 1-00105A26F05D}\1.0\0\win32]
    @="C:\\PROGRA~1\\Qui cken\\QWAPP.DLL"
    [HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\TypeLib\{4E2B 30D0-E0A2-11D2-9E1 1-00105A26F05D}\1.0\FLAGS]
    @="1"
    [HKEY_CLASSES_R OOT\TypeLib\{4E2B30D0-E0A2-11D2-9E1 1-00105A26F05D}\1.0\HELPDIR]
    @="C:\\PROGRA~1\\Qui cken\\"

  • Two items. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Call Me Black Cloud ( 616282 ) on Monday December 09, 2002 @12:49AM (#4842157)
    1. Have you contacted Intuit about this? What was their response? Certainly you're not the only one who has noticed this change...what's the buzz in the QB community?

    2. Change. Use Peachtree (I've had it for years, works great) Like Linux? Use VMware.

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