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Amnesty Calls Shenannigans on MS, Sun, Cisco 519

ZurichPrague writes "Amnesty International is claiming Microsoft, Sun, Nortel and Cisco, among others, have broken the law by selling filtering technology to China, helping that country implement its censorship. Is Amnesty right? Making the technology is fine, but if we know that it could be used for ill, aren't we bound to not sell to some countries and companies? C/Net has the story here."
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Amnesty Calls Shenannigans on MS, Sun, Cisco

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  • Of course not. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by JKConsult ( 598845 )
    The royal "we" might not be right in selling it, but corporations exist for one reason: to make money. For good or for ill, there are no moral obligations placed on them. They develop a product, someone wants to buy it, they sell it. End of story. Stop anthropomorphizing them.
    • Re:Of course not. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 28, 2002 @01:47AM (#4773247)
      Well, seeing as how the US courts have given corporations the same status as human beings, the morality question is a bit more clouded. Would we prosecute an individual who created and sold a product used to suppress the same principles held dear by his home country? Of course we would; we'd nail that seditious, un-patriotic bastard to a wall. But if you're Cisco, and you willingly (with your technology *and* consultants) erect the "Great Firewall of China", your stock goes up and you are hailed as a bastion of capitalism. Let's call a spade a spade.
    • Re:Of course not. (Score:5, Interesting)

      by 1u3hr ( 530656 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @01:56AM (#4773295)
      corporations exist for one reason: to make money. For good or for ill, there are no moral obligations placed on them

      You've just stated there is no legal obligation. Probably true. Amnesty's modus operandi is basically to ask governments and corporations to consider the morality of what they do. Further, it can make it a business issue for the company if it doesn't care by making it lose sales elsewhere. Companies, like Apple, were pressured by boycotts to stop selling services to the murderous Burmese junta by that means.

    • Re:Of course not. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by ArmedGeek ( 562115 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @01:58AM (#4773302) Homepage Journal

      corporations exist for one reason: to make money. For good or for ill, there are no moral obligations placed on them.

      I must agree. A business's only motivation is, and should be, to make a profit. If people wish to impose morality on a business, it should be done the same way, through profit. Simple answer: If a business is engaging in behaviour that people disagree with, boycott them. If the business loses more money through boycott than it makes from the offending behaviour, then it will stop engaging in the behaviour.

      Unfortunately, this is probably another issue where people would rather bitch than take action.

      • Re:Of course not. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by ZurichPrague ( 629877 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @03:02AM (#4773505)
        corporations exist for one reason: to make money. For good or for ill, there are no moral obligations placed on them.

        But companies are made up of humans. So if some people form a company they no longer have to follow any moral code? What kind of reasoning is that?

        So companies that did business with the Nazis were ok because they weren't breaking the law?
      • by Kwil ( 53679 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @03:29AM (#4773585)
        A business's only motivation is, and should be, to make a profit. [emphasis added]

        This is utter bullshit.

        The only reason we allow businesses and corporations to run is to better society as a whole. Even the Founders had some grave doubts about corporations, but they were seen as a neccessary evil in order to encourage a good economy and a better standard of living for all.

        The key words there are "for all", not for the shareholders, not for the employees, not even for the customers, but for everybody.

        When a corporation starts going against that, when it actually starts doing harm to some people, that corporation is not fulfilling the reasons it is allowed to exist for.

        What is a shame is how few people remember this.

        • Thank you very much. I totally agree with you. Yes corporations have this power in out current legal setting, but that does not make it right.

          I think we need to readjust our entire system towards human values, rather that monentary values.

      • Export Controls (Score:3, Insightful)

        by dtmos ( 447842 )

        Clearly no one on this thread works for a manufacturer doing international business from the U.S. (or recalls the export restrictions on encryption a few years back--since relaxed). The U.S. government does quite a good job of imposing morality on business, through its export control classification number (ECCN) [doc.gov] system, run by the Bureau of Industry and Security [doc.gov] at the Department of Commerce.

        This organization has its roots in the old Atomic Energy Commission rules on limiting the export of nuclear materials in the 1940s, but has been greatly expanded, starting in the 1980s, then explosively in the last few years. Every item exported, from software to plastic, must be classified prior to shipment, and there are quite lengthy and detailed [gpo.gov] descriptions involved. (The sections most relevant to the average /. reader are Category 3-electronics [gpo.gov], Category 4-computers [gpo.gov], Category 5 (Part 1)-telecommunications [gpo.gov], Category 5 (Part 2)-information security [gpo.gov], and Supplement No. 2, general technology and software notes [gpo.gov], all in section 774.) The rules are in place ostensibly to keep the unwashed heathen overseas from access to U.S. technology that can be turned against the U.S., or technology that they can use to protect themselves against the U.S. Technologists should be aware that the rules were "clarified" a year or two back to include "technology" export, not just the export of physical objects, and that simply discussing a "controlled" technology with someone inside the U.S. that has citizenship from a "banned nation" list makes one subject to fines and/or imprisonment. (This policy works because, as everyone knows, the U.S. is the source of all useful technology ;).)

        I bring this up to show that moral obligations (at least in the form of obligations that protect U.S. interests) are already placed on businesses, and that the mechanisms are already in place to control whatever export the federal government desires to control.

    • Re:Of course not. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by NoMoreNicksLeft ( 516230 ) <(john.oyler) (at) (comcast.net)> on Thursday November 28, 2002 @02:01AM (#4773311) Journal
      Anthropomorphizing a group of people. Hmm. Yeh, that is pretty dumb.

      [END SARCASM MODE]
    • Re:Of course not. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by kristjansson ( 624846 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @02:18AM (#4773365)

      Call me crazy, but Corporations are permitted much of the same legal protections as individuals (IIRC, at least in the US, YMMV). Shouldn't they be expected to behave with some sense of responsibility for their actions?



      Yes, I know about "responsibility to shareholders" and all of that mess. Mod me down for naivete, I deserve it for the above statement. What I should have said was "Corporations are given MORE legal protections than individuals..."

    • Re:Of course not. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by stygar ( 539704 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @02:21AM (#4773378)

      So what? You've missed the point entirely. Corporations can't accomplish anything on their own - that's why people work for them. You're right in that a corporation (which is just an abstract legal construct) doesn't have moral obligations, but the people who make the decisions for it sure as hell do.

      An executive at Sun, or Microsoft, or whoever else, can't just sit there and say "there was money to be made, who am I to judge?" They had the opportunity to do the right thing, and say no.

      Shrugging your shoulders and saying "that's what corporations do" is incredibly callous. The Chinese government is not playing around: people who get busted by these filters aren't getting a warning, or a fine - they're going to jail. Read some of the articles on the issue, like this one [businessweek.com]. People are being thrown in jail for simply speaking their mind using the net, and some of them have already died in custody.

    • err... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by MacAndrew ( 463832 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @02:35AM (#4773425) Homepage
      To be technical, true morality is not "placed" on anyone, it is adopted and internalized.

      Regardless, you're right that a corporation is an artificial person like Data -- the law does anthropomorphize them for many purposes, for example a corporation may sue or be sued, is taxed as an entity, and can be found guilty of a crime (if not jailed). It enjoys privileges and assume burdens, but is fundamentally amoral. But that doesn't mean that it can't choose to concern itself with corporate responsibility; nor that we can't lobby it to do so; nor that as a bare minimum of good business sense most public companies will at least attempt to comport their activities with public opinion, for fear of damaging share price or customer good will.

      So we do place moral obligations on them. They don't have to worry about whether they're going to heaven or hell, but they do need to respond to the world around them, if for no other reason than good business. They don't live in a business school beaker.

      The level of responsiveness varies widely. The pressure on companies not to do business in apartheid South Africa, and on univerities and trusts to divest themselves of stock in these companies, was particularly bitter.
    • ... and govt to help extend the US's domination of the world and exploit the world's resources?

      Evil is in the eye of the beholder. Where do you draw the line?

    • Re:Of course not. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by ShieldW0lf ( 601553 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @03:09AM (#4773525) Journal
      So... if I start a company, and my company sells nukes to terrorists, there's nothing morally wrong with that, as long as we turn a profit?

      You must be American.
      • Re:Of course not. (Score:4, Insightful)

        by pubjames ( 468013 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @05:29AM (#4773978)
        You must be American.

        I think you have hit on the crux of the matter. You only really hear these type of arguments ("profit is all that matters for corporations") from Americans. In the rest of the world, they sound frankly screwed up. But of course since most Americans haven't really experienced countries other than their own, they assume that these sad ideas are normal.

        Bye bye Karma.

        (Score -1, Unamerican.)
        • Re:Of course not. (Score:5, Insightful)

          by 5KVGhost ( 208137 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @10:31AM (#4775035)
          I think you have hit on the crux of the matter. You only really hear these type of arguments ("profit is all that matters for corporations") from Americans. In the rest of the world, they sound frankly screwed up.

          WTF? So coporations in other countries are beacons of moral purity and selfless sacrifice? Not hardly. French corporations are implicated in political bribes. South African De Beers does all sorts of evil stuff to maintain their lucrative position. Those are just a couple examples off the top of my head.

          There are probably a million similar "scandals" around the world every day, but because they involve less prominent countries or happen in places where corruption is a way of life no one considers them dramatic enough to report. Trying to brush off greed as a purely American failing may make you feel better, but it's just ridiculous.
    • Re:Of course not. (Score:3, Interesting)

      by prockcore ( 543967 )
      corporations exist for one reason: to make money.

      No, corporations exist for one reason: to better the lives of its employees.

      If the corporation was making money, but wasn't improving the lives of its employees, it would cease to exist.
    • Re:Of course not. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by pubjames ( 468013 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @04:05AM (#4773675)
      The royal "we" might not be right in selling it, but corporations exist for one reason: to make money. For good or for ill, there are no moral obligations placed on them. They develop a product, someone wants to buy it, they sell it. End of story. Stop anthropomorphizing them.

      I've seen this opinion expressed on Slashdot several times before. I'm hoping it's just because it's mainly quite young people that post on Slashdot, and when they get a bit older they'll hold more reasonable views.

      I have an employee who's mother is terminally ill. For the last year or so, she's been taking a lot of time off work, and she's costing the company more than she's making at the moment. According to your worldview, I should sack her. Well, I think you're worldview is screwed up and sad.
  • Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @01:42AM (#4773232)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • by MacAndrew ( 463832 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @01:49AM (#4773259) Homepage
      Really, most of MS in China is pirated anyhow.

      China is interested in Linux -- how will people here feel when Secret Police Agent 46 posts here for help with his database?
    • by Kris_J ( 10111 )
      In a statement, Microsoft said that it is "focused on delivering the best technology to people throughout the world. However, Microsoft cannot control the way it may ultimately be used."
      Which is funny because that's exactly what they're telling customers they can do with DRM.
    • Re:MS Say's It Best (Score:3, Interesting)

      by AftanGustur ( 7715 )
      I dont think its right for these organizations to contract with Chineese to fitler the Internet, arrest people who violate these oppresive policies, and ultimately participate in thier murder. But if they simply sell products that are "off the shelf" - which seems like its the case with many of the accused vendors - then thats another thing entirely.

      There *are* laws aginst selling certain things to China, including "off the shelf" CPU's and software.

      Should American corporations be excluded from having to ahdere to those laws ?

    • by twitter ( 104583 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @03:25AM (#4773576) Homepage Journal
      But if they simply sell products that are "off the shelf" - which seems like its the case with many of the accused vendors - then thats another thing entirely.

      It's not a matter of "could" the technology be put to ill use, it's a matter of knowing what the system you set up was designed to do. Are we to think that M$ and Cisco did not know the Chinese government's intentions? Of course they knew, they desined the network to make it possible. They just did not care.

      There's a huge difference between general purpose work and applying specific technology to evil ends. Here's an analogy: Furnace design is a fine occupation, designing furnaces to burn people alive is evil. You can try to justify things like Paladium, Magic Lantern, Carnivor and what not, but these are systems designed to deny you of your rights. Those working on them must know what they are doing. It's not like they are making new email music and movie formats for improved performance, email systems with greater reliability, keybords that make fewer errors, they are making systems that will keep you from making copies of your files and running "non M$ approved" aplications and automated fourth amendment violation all at the cost of relaibility and performance of the systems involved.

      If you are working on a bogus project don't fall for comforting logic. "someone else will do it if I don't" may be true, but it will be their bad. It's better if you blow the wistle and get away as fast as you can. The world always finds out. It may forgive you, but you will always know that you wimped out and other people suffered as a result. Think of yourself as well. Never truse an employer who's working on ways to screw their customers (ie, those who give you money), as they never treat their employees any better.

      • by GoofyBoy ( 44399 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @10:07AM (#4774893) Journal

        People who are going to burn in hell according to you;

        - Albert Einstein
        - Anyone who worked on firewall filtering.
        - Who ever the wise ass was who thought up the crossbow.
        - That dude who did PGP - The choice of criminals everwhere!
        - The ad guy who put that sexy woman up on that billboard for cigerettes.

        Clue for you: Technology is a double edged sword. I really doubt that these companies have a "Evil project developement and bunny killing" department.

      • by Reziac ( 43301 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @11:47AM (#4775482) Homepage Journal
        But other than scale, there is no difference between "we shouldn't sell Product X off the shelf, because the evil Chinese gov't might abuse it", and "we shouldn't make P2P technology available, because naughty children will use it to steal music".

        It's still blaming the tool for the actions of those who use it.

  • Good point by AI (Score:5, Insightful)

    by t0qer ( 230538 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @01:43AM (#4773236) Homepage Journal
    Internet censorship is no better than a Nazi bookburning. Doesn't make a difference if they're blocking printed text or unicode.
    • by sweetooth ( 21075 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @02:28AM (#4773400) Homepage
      However, you can't hold the company liable for selling them tools that can be used for censorship when that is not thier sole purpose. Cisco sells routers, firewalls, etc. The chinese government made the concious decision to block various routes in those routers, or sites in the firewalls. Cisco didn't do it for them (at least I don't see where it says they did). Microsoft sells operating systems and proxy servers and other software. A multitude of poeple use Microsoft products to get whatever they want from the Internet. The Chinese government chose to use those products to block access to various sites.

      Lots of people are glad to see Linux being picked up in China. What happens when Amnesty get's pissed off that Linux is being used to violate Human Rights? Sue the Free Software Foundation?

      While Internet censorship may be no better than Nazi bookburning ( I would tend to agree ) it doesn't make the act of selling software or routers to the Chinese illegal. In my opinion this is a frivilous lawsuit and should be thrown out. Amnesty should be charged for whatever fees are associated with the case for wasting tax payer dollars. What Amnesty should be doing is lobbying to make it illegal to sell the devices/software to any company that uses or intends to use them for Human Rights violations. Put the blame where it belongs, with the Chinese government, and not with corporations.

      Hell, according to the article this is even more suspect. Amnesty doesn't even appear to have done any hard research, they point to various news articles as thier sources.
      • Re:Good point by AI (Score:5, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 28, 2002 @04:06AM (#4773678)
        Cisco sells routers, firewalls, etc. The chinese government made the concious decision to block various routes in those routers, or sites in the firewalls. Cisco didn't do it for them (at least I don't see where it says they did).

        Cisco did [newsmax.com]
    • Pot, meet Kettle (Score:5, Insightful)

      by sql*kitten ( 1359 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @02:30AM (#4773405)
      Internet censorship is no better than a Nazi bookburning. Doesn't make a difference if they're blocking printed text or unicode.

      These companies might be selling technology that could be repurposed to suppress freedom to an oppressive regime, but the Open Source community is willing to give it to them for free.

      If Amnesty had published an article on the Chinese government using ipchains or squid in the Great Firewall, or using Perl to search proxy logs for who was looking at unapproved sites, would /. have been so eager to criticize?
    • by nautical9 ( 469723 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @02:52AM (#4773477) Homepage
      Internet censorship is no better than a Nazi bookburning. Doesn't make a difference if they're blocking printed text or unicode.
      True, but you can't be angry at the guy who invented fire, just because someone's using fire in bad ways.

      Yes, China's communist practices of censorship are not a Good Thing, but just because companies produce filtering technology and sell it to them doesn't make THEM bad. The filtering tech can be useful if used properly.

      It's the age old dispute that applies here - "guns don't kill, people do".

  • by fetta ( 141344 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @01:43AM (#4773237)
    There is definitely a moral issue here - should companies help suppress freedom in other countries?

    But is there really a legal issue here? I'm not so sure.
  • by roalt ( 534265 ) <slashdot...org@@@roalt...com> on Thursday November 28, 2002 @01:44AM (#4773238) Homepage Journal
    U.S.-based Web search engines have also felt pressure from the Chinese government. China blocked Google for several weeks in August and blocked AltaVista in September. Web portal Yahoo has defended its decision to sign an agreement to comply with regulations requiring the monitoring and restriction of "harmful" information. Yahoo said it signed the agreement out of compliance with local laws, adding it would not sign any laws that extend beyond current limits of censorship.

    So, except for MS, Sun, etc. are the search engines also breaking the law?

    • What law?

      The only mention of 'law' in CNN's article is a Chinese law prohibiting transmission of state secrets to overseas organizations via the Internet.

      Anyway, the bag is already open and the cats have escaped - there are way too many different ways and means to block sites at the borders. NetBSD, FreeBSD, Linux (all distros), Solaris, etc are all capable of acting as routers, never mind the routers and switches that Cisco and other network providers push out. Any fraggin' box with two NICs can do it. Heck, even one NIC would be enough if you're careful.

      About 7 years ago I put together a firewall for a small company's dialup. While I was poking around looking for software I came across Drawbridge, from tamu.edu. It's a packet filter that runs on a DOS-based PC, for crying out loud - give it a couple of NICs and a set of rules and it too could be part of the Great FireWall of China.

      And another thing - there's what, 3 billion Chinese? Anyone stop to think that among all those folks there might be a few individuals smart enough to actually produce their own blocking software? How many Chinese attend Universities in the Western hemisphere? I know the Uni I was at had a sizeable population of Orientals, some of them even pursuing PHD's in computer studies of one kind or another.

      I'm not saying that makes it right for China to stop their citizens from accessing certain sites on the Internet. I'm saying that if there is actually a law being broken (and that's doubtful) by letting China get blocking software, then it's being broken by a hell of a lot more people than MS, Sun and Cisco. Pretty much every computer OS from DOS up to mainframes supports TCP/IP and can therefore be used to create blocking software.

      OK, this is bound to be modded down as Commie-loving flamebait, but I don't care. Moderators, do your worst! And as you do, remember that there are Commies on both sides of this argument - the communist government of China is suppressing the communist people of China, so whichever side you support, you're a Commie-lover!

  • At this point that's really too bad that someone is selling technology to China that blocks out websites, but does this really surprise anyone?

    They're filtering the internet. It happens in libraries and schools in the U.S. all the time. In this case it's nation wide, but it's not as if the Chinese governemnt wouldn't have something to filter the internet in place if Sun, MS and Cisco weren't selling the stuff.

    One could argue that China is better off with some filtering but access to the internet rather than no filtering and no 'net access. Sure, they block a lot of sites, but I'm willing to bet they don't get them all. Add on to that the fact that people are probably working just as hard coming up with ways to get around the filters.

    This is a classic example of information wanting to be free, and it will be. Anything they have in place to block information will fall short. The filtering technology WILL fail, and then billions of people will have acess to the 'net. If the Chinese govt. wants to spend millions on technology from U.S. companies, that's fine by me.

    • They aren't selling "MS anti-freedom v1.0". Think of it this way. Could you useing products you would not bitch about buying in America be used to filter the internet? You can buy all the regular routers and server and be just fine. The real issue is should they be making money. The chinese govt. spent a lot of money that ended up in American companies pockets.
    • it's not as if the Chinese governemnt wouldn't have something to filter the internet in place if Sun, MS and Cisco weren't selling the stuff.

      That's the old, "if we don't do it, someone else will, so why not?" argument. If we don't sell weapons to UNITA, someone else will, and dammit, we don't want the Belgians and Germans to make money when we could be! Why bother with an arms embargo on Serbia, when someone else will just sell them weapons?

      The fallacy with this argument is that first, the technology being sold by Cisco, et. al. is not irreplaceable, but it's not exactly easy to simply duplicate in a commodity fashion. It would take a concerted effort to conduct this blocking using other equipment. Sure, it wouldn't stop them, but it would make it more difficult, thereby giving the information more of an opportunity to achieve freedom. Of course, the information doesn't just suddenly attain free status on its own, it takes people to make it free.

      The other fallacy is that there's a moral equivalency between profiting from unethical or immoral behavior, and choosing *not* to profit from it. If someone does something wrong, and you assist them in that endeavor, you're doing something wrong, too.

      I certainly don't expect big companies like M$ and Cisco to deny themselves the opportunity to do business with the Chinese government. I'm not naiive. However, even big multinationals are very sensitive to public opinion. Witness Nike and the sweatshops, the growth of Fair Trade Coffee, and so on. If we do nothing when companies engage in amoral profiteering, it's no wonder we expect it from them.

      I don't share your belief that the Chinese system of control over information flow will somehow magically disappear on its own. Not only that, but the US supposedly represents freedom of expression. How are those millions of Chinese going to feel about American rhetoric about freedom when we've been profiting from the squelching of freedoms in their country?

  • As much as I like AI, I disagree with them on this. People are going to get items that can be used in questionable ways - technology, guns, drugs, whatever - from someone.

    I guess it's idealistic, but I sometimes think that people can deal with the issue of why do people want to censor others, or take drugs, or etc, rather than getting offended that it happens. I know that's not the case though, and I also know companies exist to turn a profit, so I guess in the end I don't really care about China censoring its citizens since it doesn't involve me directly.*

    *I know that's a terrible thing to say, but it's how people feel. *shrug*
  • Holocaust argument (Score:5, Insightful)

    by bstadil ( 7110 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @01:48AM (#4773253) Homepage
    The argument often heard is that its the Government that is responsible not the technology maker.

    Maybe / maybe not but consider this

    Industrial Leaders [geocities.com]

    It is easy to forget about prominant business men when focusing on figures like Eichmann or Hoss, but the industrialists who were eager to create factories at Auschwitz were perpetrators of the horror too.

    Many prominent German corporations, among them Krupp, Siemens and Bayer, were interested in what might be negotiated. Auschwitz began developing a network of outlying subcamps, thirty-four in all. Soon, the prisoners worked at a cement plant, a coal-mine, a steel factory and a shoe factory.

    The biggest of these Auschwitz subcamps was the I.G. Farben plant. The plant was known as Buna because its principal purpose was to produce synthetic rubber; its other main installation was a hydrogenation plant designed to convert coal into oil. The Auschwitz factories were the largest in the Farben empire. Conditions at Buna were much like those at Auschwitz. The dawn roll calls, the starvation rations, the labor gangs sent out for twelve hours at a time, forced to work at the gas chambers and furnaces, beaten by guards, harried by giant dogs. The prisoners who died of overwork (dozens of them every day) had to be hauled back to camp at nightfall so that they could be propped up and counted at the next morning's roll call.

    Ultimately, around 25,000 people were killed during the construction of the I.G. Farben plant.

    • Actually, IG Farben was dismantled after the war. They were intimately tied with the Nazi party and profited greatly from the war and the slave labor system.

      After the war, IG Farben's HQ in Frankfurt was taken over by the US Army and the company split up. The process of denazification could not be complete though because the plants were vital to the reconstruction of post-war Germany.

      What is relevant is that this was the first "Corporate Death Penalty" of a major corporation for moral reasons.

    • Bah. Ferdinand Porsche designed, built, and sold transportation (guess where Volkswagen got its start?) and armor (yes, there was a Porsche-designed tank) to the Nazi military machine. Does that mean Porsche the company is bad? Should you not want a Porsche? BMW provided engines for the Luftwaffe, and after the war were no longer allowed to make airplane engines, so they turned to cars. Should you not buy a BMW now because of that?


      Pretty much any German, Italian, or Japanese company that's been around since WWII will have done something to support the war effort at the time. Is that a reason to boycott them now? I think not.


      And as far as China and censorship goes, how are they any different than France (except in severity), who don't allow any searches, auctions, etc on Nazi memorabilia?


      (And before anybody gets it in their head, let me just state outright that I'm not a Nazi sympathizer. I'm simply making a point.)

  • is suing those very same corporations for selling this techology to parents to filter out porn.

    More info at Teen Magazine.

  • by ism ( 180693 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @01:48AM (#4773257)
    The technology is neither a state secret nor a type of munitions. No law was broken. What is a problem is that the technology was allegedly used to violate human rights. Whether this is right or wrong depends on your fundamental belief of what a corporation's primary goal is: maximizing profits, or benefitting the world.

    The other angle is that the technology has legitimate uses (for example, in a corporate setting). If the technology is used for bad purposes, are the creators liable for it? Place the blame where it belongs, squarely on the shoulders of China.
  • the second time [slashdot.org] around, eh?
  • by browser_war_pow ( 100778 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @01:50AM (#4773263) Homepage
    Page 13 of the PDF has the paragraph condemning them for their role. Highlight it and send it to your representative and senators. This is an issue that for many Congressmen, especially conservative and libertarian ones not a whole lot needs to be said to get the ball rolling. Many conservative (read ones like the outgoing Bob Barr) ones would be inclined to consider this behavior damn near treasonous to the ideals this country was founded on. What many people on /. don't see, is that many, in fact probably most, of Microsoft's harshest critics are on the right, not the left. Take a look at FreeRepublic.com's technical section if y'all want a better look.
  • by roalt ( 534265 ) <slashdot...org@@@roalt...com> on Thursday November 28, 2002 @01:50AM (#4773265) Homepage Journal
    In a report released Tuesday, Amnesty said 33 people have been detained in recent years for downloading or distributing politically subversive information via the Internet, three of whom died in custody.

    I hope Chinese users don't use mozilla with link prefetching [mozilla.org]. They might be downloading illegal material by accident...

  • I don't like it, but its perfectly legal.

    The First Amendment only applies to America. In fact, to be more specific, it only applies to public areas. The First Amendment does not apply on my property. And it doesn't apply on Chinese property either.

    Besides, we're practically the only country that fights so vigorously for every form of free speech. The Europe Union has no problem banning hate speech it finds destructive, and other countries have their own free speech problems. I do agree with Amnesty is fighting for more free speech. But its absolutely wrong to call these actions illegal when American companies are providing solutions to allow other countries to enforce their own laws.

    --
    Old actors don't die, they just go to Old Navy

    • by donutello ( 88309 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @02:12AM (#4773347) Homepage
      This has nothing to do with being in the US or not since the companies are not directly involved in the violations.

      For example, the US constitution guarantees the right to life. However, that does not mean it is wrong or illegal to sell guns just because someone might use those to deprive someone of their right to live.

      Technology is a tool. Technology is not evil in itself.
      • However, that does not mean it is wrong or illegal to sell guns just because someone might use those to deprive someone of their right to live.

        What if you know for sure the guy you sell a gun to is going to kill someone with it? Does this still apply then?
    • The First Amendment only applies to America. In fact, to be more specific, it only applies to public areas. The First Amendment does not apply on my property. And it doesn't apply on Chinese property either.

      What about children inside of public schools? I don't recall having any freedom of expression as a minor in school.

      • You did have rights, but they were attenuated. There is a Supreme Court decision called Tinker [landmarkcases.org] that you might check out, concerning a children protesting the Vietnam War by wearing black armbands to school.

        The poster is also mistaken to say free speech rights never apply on private property; there are limited exceptions for shopping malls and union organizing.
    • by Auckerman ( 223266 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @02:46AM (#4773457)
      "The First Amendment only applies to America."

      I'm sorry, but this is a moral relativistic cop out. Free speech is a fundamental human right. End of story. If I were a stock holder in the above companies, I would sell that stock as soon as trading re-opened. It is fundamentally morally backwards to support in anyway the blocking of speech or access to other peoples speech.

      If it is not illegal for US companies to help other countries to do things that violate the fundamental human rights of it's citizens, then it SHOULD BE. We shouldn't pass the buck on this stuff, it's how the US gets such a bad reputation.
    • Yes, the The first admendement of the US Constitution only applies to the US.

      However, almost every country has signed the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights (http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html).

      Totalitarian regimes like China igore it (but they have signed it).

      Freedom of Religion is covered in UDHR Article 18.
      Freedom of Speech is covered in UDHR Article 19.
      Freedom of Press is cobered through UDHR Article 19.
      Freedom of Assembly is covered in UDHR Article 20.
      Freedom of Petition is covered in UDHR Article 21.
  • problems (Score:2, Interesting)

    by yoink! ( 196362 )
    Although I know nothing about the laws governing censorship, including the export of products for censorship, I do think Amnesty is wrong in this case. Amnesty Internation needs to focus on the fact that China is censoring its citizens. If Microsoft, CISCO et al. don't provide solutions, someone else will.
  • Troubling (Score:4, Insightful)

    by whereiswaldo ( 459052 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @01:51AM (#4773271) Journal

    Since I heard about China buying censoring technology from the US, it has bothered me that companies' ethics aren't better. IMO it's a major source of social decay in any country when companies are allowed to do whatever they want. What kind of example are they setting as corporate citizens of the community?

    What if I wanted to write software for the mafia? I could just pretend the software wouldn't be used for illegal purposes. Would that be ethical of me? Could I be aiding and abetting (to assist or support in the achievement of a purpose) known criminals? Of course. How is this different than aiding known human rights violators?
  • Oh dear, I'd better go get my shovel..
  • Is it still civil disobedience if the law is in another country and in no way applies to you?
  • by divide overflow ( 599608 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @01:53AM (#4773281)

    Nowhere in that C/Net story does anyone accuse those companies of breaking a law. And what law would they be breaking?
  • by Our Man In Redmond ( 63094 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @01:54AM (#4773284)
    Would AI get bent out of shape if China started using Free/Open Source software extensively in its filtering and blocking efforts? If so, why? By its nature free software is free for anyone to use, even totalitarian regimes who want to use the software to limit the freedom of those they rule.

    This whole thing sounds a lot like the old "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument.
  • Not "Shenannigans", but "Shenanigans"

  • by Cheese Cracker ( 615402 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @01:55AM (#4773291)
    Good or bad? Well, the communist regime is scared to death of letting the information flow freely inside of China. That would jeopardize their position. Personally, I want the information to be free. But it doesn't matter what you, me or Amnesty says... the communist regime does what they think is necessary to keep their country together under their control.

    As for the US filtering technology they bought... it's just an interim solution. There's a love and hate relationship between the communist regime in Beijing and the US... they love getting the new technology, but they don't trust the US. Once the software shops inside of China are up to speed, they're going to build their own filtering software. All in the plan of being self-sufficient.
  • We're talking about secondary or tertiary effects here, at best. China happens to be using technology purchase from US manufacturers for something that's morally reprehensible. How or why should these manufacturers be held responsible for the way that it's used unless it was sold directly to them for that sole purpose? Unless Amnesty can show that these companies helped advise them on such censorship solutions, I don't think they have a case. If they want, Amnesty can basically point the finger at anybody who's involved in the chain, including Intel for supplying processors and Belkin for supplying ethernet cables. Probably as "guilty" are open source projects, which not only give them a product but the source to manufacture it at will!
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 28, 2002 @01:56AM (#4773299)
    Isn't Yahoo REQUIRED to filter out pro Nazi content on their German site?

    Isn't e-bay REQUIRED to prevent selling Nazi artifacts to visitors from Germany?

    So limiting peoples freedoms in Germany is OK, but its taboo in China?

    - Remember kids, dressing up like Hitler in school is not cool.
  • by dagg ( 153577 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @01:58AM (#4773304) Journal
    What we can do is try to be the best democracy in the world, and try to be the best capitalists in the world. If we continue doing that, then that will give us the wealth and opportunity to also be the best philanthropists and teachers in the world.

    In the short run, I don't think it makes any difference that some entrepeneurs are making money from the tyrants. In the long run, those who are oppressed by tyranny will eventually be freed by nothing but knowlege.

    --

    A lighter subject (sex) [tilegarden.com]
  • Now Amnesty thinks Windows is reliable and does what you want it to do.

  • Something odd (Score:3, Interesting)

    by markus_prime ( 629686 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @02:04AM (#4773320)
    A little off-topic, but the US Government is guilty as all hell of something like this. The similarity being they've given away _weapons_ to all sorts of crackpots for purposes of causing 'ill'. So I don't think these companies should have any flack dished their way for supplying a technology to China. Who has their policy of filtering in place, and will continue to do so whether these companies sell them technology or not.
  • Careful not to miss the human side [issho.org] of this issue. I don't know what the people rotting away in prison said on the Internet, but Amnesty doesn't think they deserve to be locked up.
    Note: the above link is not English. Non-Francophones may wish to give machine translation [altavista.com] a shot.
  • by jki ( 624756 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @02:07AM (#4773327) Homepage
    1) they buy the "filtering technology" from commercial from commercial vendors 2) they build the same technology utilizing existing open source solutions and own code ?

    I seriously do not think that obtaining the technology is a limiting factor in here. Even though, I have been an amnesty member for some years, I believe this shot goes to wrong direction. Maybe they could have pointed at only the Websense company, whose main purpose is producing filtering technology. Maybe they should not have pointed at any of those companies. When you know that currently you can get killed and tortured for using internet in china I think there is some more concrete issues to concentrate on. Like concentrating all power into freeing those (I heard there were tens of) people) who are in prison because they "used the internet" right now - maybe amnesty could instead make these companies look like saints and request help in this task for them.

  • The Whole Story (Score:5, Insightful)

    by MacAndrew ( 463832 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @02:08AM (#4773334) Homepage
    I'm not sure if I'm missing something, or C|Net and I read different reports, but the Amnesty International press release [amnesty.org] is considerably grimmer than what C|Net selectively relates.

    To give you a hint, the document is entitled "China: Internet users at risk of arbitrary detention, torture and even execution."

    This is censorship with a big rock, not benign filtering, the occasional arrest and whoops a death or two in custody. "Benign" filtering software would probably be useful to track down suspects, a sinister dimension. Change anyone's minds?

    This does remind me of the risk of trusting the press; even if the Amnesty report proves to be baloney, C|Net did not accurately describe it, or provide a link to it.
  • Code is Speech (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Henry V .009 ( 518000 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @02:10AM (#4773340) Journal
    Code is speech, right? Don't I have a first ammendment right to distribute it to whomever I want? I don't think it's wise for the government to make (more) laws on what kinds of software can and can not be exported.

    On the other hand, I'd like to see some Congressmen condemning Microsoft's executives as treasonous scum, and a call on real Americans to use Open Source alternatives.
    • I believe your First Amendment rights apply on US soil... Try claiming your First Amendment rights on the streets of Beijing when the police haul you away for urging the peasants to revolt.

      Besides which, not all code is free speech under the First Amendment. Check out the US stance on exporting encryption products, for example. That's software classed as munitions... It doesn't even have to be US-written encryption software. Import something from Europe and re-export it and suddenly you're illegally shipping munitions.

  • Is Amnesty right?

    Probably. These are corporations in the business of making money, particularly if they're selling the same products they sell to other areas.
    The artical doesn't mention whether or not amnesty is refering to out of the box appliances, or custom solutions designed from the ground up to the customer's specs. Anyone care to shed some light?

  • by heytal ( 173090 ) <hetal,rach&gmail,com> on Thursday November 28, 2002 @02:14AM (#4773352) Homepage
    Procmail developers were sued by Amnesty, because they helped in censorship and filtering.
  • I think this notion that Sun, Microsoft, Nortel, or Cisco have any particularly distinguished technology is silly. If the Chinese want filtering technology, they have the skill to build it themselves. Of the bunch, only Cisco has anything that is somwhat difficult to reproduce: dedicated networking hardware that lets them handle greater traffic volumes, but they can substitute more off-the-shelf hardware running free or homegrown software for that.

    Trying to influence other countries by restricting technology is a losing proposition--it just forces them to become more independent. If we wanted to get the attention of the Chinese, restricting imports of their low-cost products would do much more. But we aren't principled enough for that--instead we give the Chinese MFN status.

  • the list (Score:2, Informative)

    by denny_d ( 454663 )
    The sword cuts both ways.

    Check this list out.
    http://code.law.harvard.edu/filtering/list.h tml

    ABC
    BBC
    CBS

    All blocked. I especially like the http://sourceforge.net block.

    Is this the price of freedom is knowing how powerless we are against power?

    dgd
  • C/Net has the story here.

    Slashdot also has a story here [slashdot.org]

    Oh wait...
  • by ctar ( 211926 ) <christophertar.gmail@com> on Thursday November 28, 2002 @02:49AM (#4773469) Homepage
    I saw an interview with the author of this book [besr.org] called IBM and the Holocaust. It strongly ties the capability of systematically killing the Jews to the abilities of the Hollerith machine (run on punch cards) which IBM specifically customized for the purpose of organizing and sorting people.

    WWII, I feel, had a lot to do with the very fast development of production, and technology in general at the time. The author, Edwin Black, says the scale at which the holocaust took place would not have been possible without the help of IBM's machines, and their engineers.

    This is really not much different, in my opinion. Cisco is a publicly traded company on the NASDAQ, which is a US based stock market. The shareholders (mostly US citizens) should be ultimately responsible, not only for ensuring profits, but also be held responsible for any misdeeds the company commits...

    As another poster puts it; its one thing if they are buying the equipment off the shelf and using it for censorship. It is quite another if the companies are tailoring their products to these requirements in anticipation or in response to demand...

  • Arms for Iraq (Score:3, Interesting)

    by panurge ( 573432 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @03:39AM (#4773605)
    The arguments on this thread about the overarching right of corporations to make a profit obviously justify selling arms to Saddam Hussein or, indeed, Osama bin Laden. Supporters of free markets often talk as if there was no need for law to govern the operation of the markets, but of course there is, or before long they will not be free any more.

    Now as I understand it, to have a free market transparency of information is needed, i.e. you cannot have a free market if access to market information is selectively denied to people. If the buggy whip makers can prevent the spread of information about Mr. Ford's new toy, that is not a free market. So the one law that must be enforced to protect market economies is the law of freedom of information, and it is this one that the Chinese are breaking.

    Amnesty is peeved because the Chinese are preventing the rest of the world from learning that they have a scumbag government, scumbag bureaucracy, and scumbag rural life. A good capitalist might be equally peeved that the Chinese are trying to prevent the rest of the world learning things that might downgrade China's investment worthiness, putting on a face about supporting capitalism while in private allowing corrupt officials to steal from corporations. (You can see Chinese censorship as being equivalent to Enron's trying to keep secret the true nature of its operations and accounting.) One way of doing this is preventing the Chinese from learning about ways of disseminating that information.

    To put it another way, the right of one corporation to make a profit by selling censorware has to be balanced against the greater interest of the market economy in not allowing people to use such censorship.

  • It's about time. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by vegetablespork ( 575101 ) <vegetablespork@gmail.com> on Thursday November 28, 2002 @09:12AM (#4774659) Homepage
    Perhaps in twenty years or so, the gray and elderly executives of these companies will be hauled before a tribunal in the Hague and convicted of crimes against humanity. Because what they have done by selling this technology to an oppressive regime is nothing less.
  • by Nintendork ( 411169 ) on Thursday November 28, 2002 @11:09AM (#4775273) Homepage
    I did some looking into this a few days ago after seeing an AP article. Here's the original article [clearharmony.net] that stirred the controversy, or at least the only copy I can find online.

"I shall expect a chemical cure for psychopathic behavior by 10 A.M. tomorrow, or I'll have your guts for spaghetti." -- a comic panel by Cotham

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