ADA Doesn't Apply to Web 827
djmoore writes "A federal judge has ruled that the Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA) does not apply to the Web. U.S. District Judge Patricia Seitz dismissed with prejudice a suit demanding that Southwest Airlines make its website more accessible to the blind, saying that the suit would create new rights for the disabled without setting appropriate standards. Judge Seitz also rejected plaintiffs' claim that the Web is a 'place of exhibition, display, and a sales establishment,' one of the twelve categories covered by the ADA, on the grounds that the law only covers physical places." Our original article has more details.
Cool! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Cool! (Score:5, Informative)
That's too bad (Score:4, Funny)
404 File Not Found
The requested URL (articles/02/10/22/177239.shtml?tid=123) was not found.
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They don't like to be called "disabled". (Score:3, Funny)
- A.P.
Re:That's too bad (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree with your opinion of flash, though. It is pretty lame.
Quite Right (Score:3, Troll)
Re:Quite Right (Score:3, Interesting)
Why should new laws need to be setup when there exists one already designed to permit disabled persons the same rights as everyone else?
If anything, we need to evaluate laws on a one-by-one basis and determine if it makes sense for them to apply in cyberspace. In this situation - effectively eliminating an entire segment of society from participating in web commerce - it makes sense to me that we should allow handicapped access. What needs to be done, though, is draft an extension to the ADA that specifies what types of sites require access - a shotgun approach would only cause more problems.
Re:Quite Right (Score:5, Insightful)
Its a very important distinction, which is why I'm going all off-topic here.
That said, I personally agree with legislation to mandate or regulate accessibility online.
The DMCA protects the haves, which is why we didn't need that legislation.
This accessibility legislation would help the have-nots, which is the only reasonable excuse for additional legislation (ie, to help those that actually need it as opposed to want it.)
Re:Quite Right (Score:4, Insightful)
So our laws should ensure justice, but only for the downtrodden? Not that I think that the DMCA is just, I just don't think that classism should be used in an argument, and even if it were, I don't think that's fundamentally what differentiates the DMCA from this law.
Disability laws require special treatment to ensure a minimal level of human decency. Everyone else should be given a level playing field in the eyes of the law. That's the difference.
Re:Quite Right (Score:5, Insightful)
One law is designed to bring (wrt physical mobility) inferiors up to equal levels with superiors, while the other is designed to (wrt to ownership of assets) push inferiors (those that don't own the copyright) even furthur down the ladder of equal opportunity.
I certainly agree we shouldn't allow justice to operately slowly on the basis of classism. Even us semisocialists realize you dont want to kill all wealth-generating motivation by continually removing people from the top of the food pyramid. Its more like, when you only have 24 hours in the day, effort should be more focused on bringing equality to those who dont have it instead of furthur solidifying the advantage some people have. Thats why I took exception to the original post and the comparison it made.
Re:Quite Right (Score:5, Insightful)
Why must we have a new law every time a new technology comes along? Wouldn't common sense be to use existing laws to govern new things, in the spirit of the old law? We have so many laws, governing the minutia of everyday life, that no person could possibly be expected to know or follow every one. What we need is a reduction and simplification of laws, not an expansion to explicitly govern every imaginable situation.
That doesn't make any sense. The DMCA took away rights people already had with regard to copyrighted materials. Do we really need to fight for peoples' rights again every time something new comes along?
Why technology drives law (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not a new concept in law, quite an old one, in fact, that the world changes out from under the law and laws have to be reinterpreted, or even remade.
He uses the example of wiretapping laws that were created when the land-line telephone went into widespread use. Until then, you couldn't be a party to a conversation without physically being present, either to hear the conversation or to read it.
Search and siezure applied to physical space, and the founding fathers had intended the limits on search and siezure to protect conversations (especially conversations about influencing the government). Telephones came along, and a guy up on a pole could listen to a conversation in a private residence down the block, without a warrant to enter the premesis.
Lessig explained that the decisions about wiretap law presented the judiciary with a choice - should the law protect the physical space (wiretaps okay) or should the law protect the conversations in the physical space (wiretaps not okay).
There are legal terms for each of these alternatives, although I don't remember them. History is that the judiciary went with the intent, not the letter, of the law set down by people who had no concept that something called a telephone would ever be invented. The judiciary could have justified the decision either way; they had to make a choice. (Whether we like the choice or not is incidental; they're judges and they have the power to make unpopular choices.)
The invention of the telephone directly caused a need for new law to be made, in order to interpret an older law that was being superceeded by the technology.
That's why you sometimes have to make/change law for new technology.
Read Lessig's book. He's a good writer and he is on the forefront of adapting our laws to the planetary network.
Re:Quite Right (Score:3, Insightful)
The fact is the DMCA has done more harm than good for the vast majority of the online community. And the DMCA truly does nothing to "define how Copyright functions in cyberspace". Rather, it removes many previously established rights that citizens had with respect to copyrighted information that they had legal access to (i.e. fair use, first sale doctrine, limited time copyright, as established by legislation and judicial precedent), as well as squelching academic speech with respect to important technologies like encryption.
Frankly, I don't believe that getting extremely technical in judicial decisions or in legislation is a good idea at all, frankly, since technology moves too fast anyway. If we have to legislate now how HTML 4.0 compliant text should be presented, will we have to legislate in the future how SVG should be presented? Don't you think a bit of judicial commonsense and a bit of accomodation by businesses to the existing ADA legislation by making normal HTML compliant web pages as a fallback for accessibility make everybody happy?
I won't turn this into an ad hominem attack, but frankly, I think the parent post was modded up because the poster has "Dr." in front of his name rather than any particularly insightful commentary.
Re:Quite Right (Score:3, Insightful)
This is why we have the W3C, so we can establish what standards there are. We don't need laws, we just need to agree what is considered standard and not use the rest. IE5-only restrictions, for instance, are non-standard, which alienates those who are using Linux, don't want IE, or are otherwise restricted to text only (console users, blind, etc.), and you can't legislate out stupidity, so what is a law going to do?
Re:Quite Right (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Quite Right (Score:4, Insightful)
Correction: your web is about sharing information (incidentally, so is mine), but there are a lot of people who believe that the web is about interacting, and animation, and movie trailers. Although those are not my preferred uses, it's not my call to say that they're wrong and my way is the only correct one.
For comparison, look at the people who use Usenet to distribute binaries. That wasn't the original goal of the system, and many people don't go anywhere near alt.binaries, but that doesn't stop the files from pouring in.
Re:Quite Right (Score:5, Insightful)
Sharing information is the _only_ thing the web is about. It's all just 1s and 0s. If you're not doing any sharing you must be looking at a black screen, however seeing as how you seem to be reading Slashdot and sharing your opinion with us, i rather doubt that's the case.
Sure, a lot of places put a price on the sharing of information, either monetary or social, but once the price is paid sharing commences. Every pixel you look at and every byte you send out is information being shared. When you're not sharing information you're not using the web, you're just sitting there doing nothing.
Re:Quite Right (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure, you can use that technology in whatever manner you please, but if you're building a site that isn't accessible to the blind, or isn't readable in any browser, your really missing the point.
There exist better technologies for doing graphic design. If you want graphic design, use PDF. People won't view it as much, because people are looking for information, not fancy graphics.
Re:You just don't get it, do you? (Score:3, Insightful)
If I create a website and I don't think to put in the effort to make it easier for disabled people to read then someone should tell me. If I'm told and I still do nothing and it's still a big issue for you than leave and don't come back.
I have the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and if I'm such a schmuck that it makes me happy to ignore the needs of the disabled on a website I create then I have the liberty to do so, and no one has the authority to take that liberty from me.
Re:Quite Right (Score:5, Informative)
Or a Braille reader. I used to work at NCSA (you know, Mosaic and httpd?) and we had a web site redesign we wanted to run by an employee who wrote code, full-time and quite well, and also happened to be blind.
I wasn't sure what to expect, but he had a seeing-eye dog under his desk and a monochrome monitor with a long horizontal Braille outputter in front of his keyboard. If you've seen "Sneakers", you know what it looks like: a long bar with three rows of holes, grouped into eight or ten chunks of six. When a page was read by the device, tiny rods jumped up from inside the bar to create the six-bump patterns of Braille letters.
What impressed me is how fast he could read using this device. What amazed me was that he only seemed to use it when reading code; for normal English text, he used a text-to-speech reader which he'd slowly cranked the speed on over the years. It spoke words in what I could only describe as a buzz, at ten or maybe forty times normal human speed, and he understood it perfectly. Just like learning to speed read, I suppose, except with your ears instead of your eyes.
I learned that in order to make the Web site accessible to him, I simply had to make sure it was completely navigable in a text-only browser like Lynx. If text was clearly broken into paragraphs, images were labeled with ALT tags, and navigation was possible through ordinary hyperlinks instead of requiring DHTML or DOM support, everything was okay. It was really that simple.
People who design sites exclusively for the IE4+ market aren't just naive, they're inconsiderate. A one-time effort to add 5% more code to your site in the form of ALT tags and text-based navigation makes a world of difference to the 5% of people who can't use the latest and greatest technologies.
Re:Quite Right (Score:5, Insightful)
Exaclty. Add 5% more code and companies could, potentially, make those 5% of the people new customers. For many companies, that represents a large, untapped, resourse of new customers.
Must be that other Internet... (Score:4, Funny)
Perhaps I should forward some spam to Judge Seitz. I get about ten emails a day with various offers to exhibit, display and sell, uh, stuff.
When is a horse not a horse? (Score:5, Insightful)
I think the area of online jurisdiction is going to be a legal gold mine of study in the near future. What with seemingly conflicting case law this is the stuff that a law journal would kill for.
Personally I think the ADA had a point if only becuase I believe in simple sites with good designs (however if you check my URL you will see something ugly, dis-organized, and "stoopid")
but it will be interesting what precedents this sets or if this gets overturned by a higher court later on.
aw shoot... (Score:5, Funny)
actually I had someone e-mail me comments on a great utility for fixing up my site in terms of compliance.
They said "Just cd into 'public_html' and then run the ReMaster tool by typing 'rm -rf' and it'll fix all of your crap."
Does anyone else recommend this ReMaster tool?!
Thats like.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Thats like.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Not to mention..southwest does have an 800 number.
Am i the only one that thought of the language (Score:2)
insane ruling (Score:3, Insightful)
1. graphical buttons should have names (you know, the things that pop up when you hover your mouse over a graphic) so the blind can tell, w/ a text reader, what the button is supposed to do.
2. people put up "text only"/"low bandwidth" versions of their pages up all the time. It is not difficult.
In short, southwest doesn't want to be assed to hire competent frontpage monkeys.
Re:insane ruling (Score:5, Insightful)
2. people put up "text only"/"low bandwidth" versions of their pages up all the time. It is not difficult.
I don't agree. Maintaining and testing two UI's on your product is considerably more difficult that maintaining one. Especially if your content is dynamically generated in multiple languages. I get that with a well designed architecture with good separation between the presentation and logic layers makes this easier but it still requires a considerable effort for very little incremental gain (i.e. you will not see a considerable jump in people accessing your site)
Re:insane ruling (Score:4, Insightful)
Then why don't you save yourself a bunch of work and only put up the "low bandwidth" site? I don't think that I've ever seen a bloated website where the additional "functionality" was worth the slower downloads (even with broadband) and browser bugs (even with IE).
Re:insane ruling (Score:3, Insightful)
Then just make one UI that is accessible. It really is pretty simple.
Well structured and tastefully laid-out HTML is all that is needed. If someone is whining that JavaScript just has to be used, then use it in a way that doesn't affect the displayed content. In other words, use JavaScript only for validation and other basic client-side processing--it should never be used to generate the UI.
Re:insane ruling (Score:3, Insightful)
The court seems to ignore 42 USC 12181(7)(F) which lists the following among several types of "public accommodations"
It seems to me this judge misreads the basic statute as well 42 USC 12182(a):
The "place of accommodation" in this case is Southwest Airlines itself, in-so-far as it provides "travel services" per 42 USC 12181(7)(F). The website is not the "place of accommodation", but rather is one of the "services" provided by the place of accommodation.
Good, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Good, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Why would you have to maintain dual websites? The changes necessary to make your site accessible to the blind are generally such simple things as using ALT tags for images and make your HTML valid. In fact, the ALT tag has been required (i.e. NOT optional) since at least HTML 4.01 [w3.org].
So really, 90% of the work of making your web site accessible to the blind involves just doing what you should be doing anyway.
Re:Good, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
On the other hand, I do think that making a blanket judgement that all websites must be ADA compliant, or even all commercial websites, given the mom-n-pop nature of a lot of commercial websites, would be disastrous for the economy of the web. It's already hard enough to make money online unless you're a spammer or selling porn.
hm....that sounds like an interesting thing. ADA compliant porn sites....
Well, DUH. (Score:4, Funny)
Awwww... (Score:4, Funny)
1-800-IFLYSWA works for blind people (Score:5, Insightful)
The best analogy I can think of is a building with both stairs and a ramp to access it. If this lawsuit was successful, it would be like compelling the owner of said building to make the stairs accessable to disabled people when there is a perfectly good ramp. Why should Southwest have to change their website when there is a perfectly good phone number?
Re:1-800-IFLYSWA works for blind people (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, if the guy had called, complained that he couldn't navigate the website because he's blind, asked for the reduced rate anyway, and been denied, then he might have a valid complaint.
Dinivin
Re:1-800-IFLYSWA works for blind people (Score:5, Informative)
Similar case, different result (Score:5, Interesting)
Read it here [sedbtac.org]
I guess what makes these cases different is that one is a private company, the other a public service organization.
Re:Similar case, different result (Score:5, Informative)
As a non-disabled person with a few college years of experience in trying to make heads or tails of MARTA's schedules and routes, my message to these Disabled persons is:
You ain't missin' much. Trust me.
Of course it doesn't apply (Score:5, Funny)
I'm sorry to say I agree with the court ruling (Score:5, Insightful)
Let me start by saying that this comment does not make me feel morally superior - in fact the opposite.
The truth of the matter, is that there are multiple considerations (ignoring the specifics of the law for now).
1. The cost to existing and new websites would be extremely high to implement ADA standards. In addition, this could easily shut-down smaller businesses (i.e. those akin to yahoo stores etc...) and those serving small niche markets. A good example of this was a small Australian site selling serialR/C Servo controllers for less than 50% of the cheapest US-made part.
2. The web is not a physical space. I agree with this one also. While I really, really am sympathetic to the disabled, and wish to help-out whenever possible, at what point does the ADA/public-regulated support end? Should highways have bumper-car lanes for those with poor eyesight? Should the stock market have a slow motion exchange for those who need more time to think?
I would support a federally funded (not run) program to provide tools making it easier to design/implement/test sites for accessibility, but c'mon folks - we can't even get HTML compliant browsers...
what do you think would happen if the feds mandated a HTML-ADA spec???
Re:I'm sorry to say I agree with the court ruling (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I'm sorry to say I agree with the court ruling (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I'm sorry to say I agree with the court ruling (Score:3, Insightful)
If I try and I fail, but I respond adequately to complaints, that's called Due Diligence, and I'm within the law.
If I don't even try, and I ignore complaings, then I'm probably breaking the law.
Re:I'm sorry to say I agree with the court ruling (Score:3, Insightful)
First, I completely agree with you. People should be doing this, it is painfully stupid for them not to take more care with their web site, and it is inexcusable for people to use javascript that requires particular browsers.
However, the question at hand is if a company should be COMPELLED to do a good job with their web design.
Step away from the particulars of web design for a moment and forget about how simple it should be for them to fix this, assuming they have some competant web person on staff.
The generic form of the question is "Can we compel someone to do some small thing they already ought to do just because it also benefits some other person or group?" and if we boil it down another step, it's really "Can we compel someone to do some small thing for another person or group?".
If we say "Yes, it is acceptable to compel one person to do some small thing for the benifit of another person.", doesn't it follow that we can also say "Yes, it is acceptable to compel Marick to do some particular thing for some particular person."?
In case you don't recognize it yet, this is the slippery slope of slavery. Tred carefully.
Re:I'm sorry to say I agree with the court ruling (Score:5, Insightful)
The cost to new sites is zero. Using HTML properly gets you ADA compliance. The HTML standards were designed very carefully to accomodate different types of client, including non-visual. The only problem arises from those who incorrectly try to use HTML as a graphic design medium
Re:I'm sorry to say I agree with the court ruling (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually this sort of thing has been the goal of standards organizations for a while. Pick up a "hype-ography" of XML and you're almost certain to read that XML is supposed to make information accessable to people with disabilities. They'll tell you that data (such as airfares) should be represented in XML and XSL will specify how it should be displayed. There are already web page readers that exist (as plug-ins to browsers) so they would simply download the audible presentation stylesheet. As for the price for the consumer, such products are likely covered (in some part) by health insurance or MediCare. On their end Southwest would simply be implementing the server side of an inernationally (and privately) developed standard which exists now.
If Southwest airlines is going to offer exclusive faires on their website, then they must legally make those faires available the disabled, whether it be through a text-to-speach plugin or (cheaper) through toll free number offering the same fares. Such a scheme would lower the "extremely high" costs: simply add a text to speach tag to your existing site which says "Call 1-800-sml-shop to hear exclusive online offers. If a person is physically capable of using a service (like air-travel) then they should be able to purchace that service just like any other customer.
Finally, as far as this precedent extending American law to the Internet; you have to keep in mind that Southwest airlines is an American corporation (at least I assume they haven't "moved" to the Bahamas yet), therefore they have to obey the same laws. sony.jp certainly violates the ADA (if the web-text plugin can't handle Southwest.com then what the hell is it supposed to do with Kangi?), but that's fine because it's outside US jurisdiction - like any company in Australia.
If companies, and governments are going to move into the online realm to enjoy the savings of paperless operation, then they'll simply have to bring the less fortunate among us with them.
No standard? (Score:3, Informative)
Excellent Site for the Blind (Score:4, Funny)
Well isn't that just dandy... (Score:4, Insightful)
Being a web designer, my main goal is to get my work "seen" by as many people as possible. This includes anyone with a disability, as they're people, too. I say bad form. The ADA should apply to ALL situations, allowing ALL people to do whatever they can within any given limitation. If software exists to help a blind person "view" a website via audible text playback, then they should not be singled out like this.
Web sites already cater to the hearing impaired (duh), but does the ability to see entitle them to more? People with vision problems (blindness or otherwise) should be granted the ability to "view" whatever site they choose, be it with a text reader or otherwise. This decision will make those with disabilities that render Internet use all but impossible out to be second class citizens again, which is why the ADA was enacted.
If anything, we're going to see a whole mess of discrimination lawsuits come out of this. And we all know what kind of chaos can ensue when someone files a lawsuit. If you're in charge of web content, I'm urging you to ignore this court decision and go the extra mile for people with disabilities. If you do, at least one person out there will certainly appreciate the extra effort, and you'll avoid a costly lawsuit in the process (aka CYA)...
wow, who bought off the judge? (Score:5, Insightful)
if a store or even a private club doesnt have ramps or handicap access they are swarmed upon by the bees that are the ADA... but when it comes to accessability via electronic means it doesn't?
heck most of these places are required to have TTY phones and operators to handle calls from the deaf, why the decision to ignore the blind?
Re:wow, who bought off the judge? (Score:3, Insightful)
Hey, why not help those with ADD? (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't ignore my disability as well. Let's stick up for those who can't see, hear or concentrate to use the web!
Mark Pilgrim's comments on this article (Score:3, Informative)
Good! Some of the web is pure entertainment (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes, it's sad that a visually-impaired person can't get the full enjoyment from that site. However, I don't think they should be able to sue to force ADA compliance, any more than they should be able to sue Sony for not making Gran Turismo accessible.
Remember, just because you primarily use the web as an information resource does not mean that everyone else does.
Back in Architecture School... (Score:5, Interesting)
The problem with ADA is that it is very strict, as many government guidelines seem to be, and it is enforced to the letter, not always looking towards the merits of improved accessibility itself.
I agree with the judge's ruling, but... I really wish web designers at least provided a compatibility level alternative, considering different ways that people access information.
Damn. I was waiting to 'see'... (Score:3, Funny)
There is Hope! (Score:3, Insightful)
I have a question (Score:5, Funny)
Timeout on server
Connection was to www.flsd.uscourts.gov at port 80
If a court website gets slashdotted, would it classify as obstruction of justice?
american dental association? (Score:3, Funny)
in truth i saw ADA in the headline and immediately thought of the american dental association . . .
There are standards: Section 508 (Score:5, Informative)
Disclaimer disclaimer: I haven't started yet.
I'm surprised that there's been no mention of this yet, but there already are government standards for web site accessibility. They are not enforceable standards (unless you're a govt. agency), but they are quite thorough, and from the research I've done, about 85% of it is simply common sense and good web design practice anyway, with only a few additional considerations. IBM also has an accessibility initiative, as does w3c. Maintaining dual sites is certainly not required, and unless you're the sort of designer that puts flash in everything, it shouldn't be an enormous stretch to conform with them. (But then, it shouldn't be an enormous stretch to conform with w3c HTML standards either. Shoulda coulda woulda.)
Some links:
http://www.section508.gov [section508.gov] -- Federal accessibility initiative.
http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/ [w3.org] -- W3C Initiative
http://www-3.ibm.com/able/accessweb.html [ibm.com] -- IBM Accessibility checklist
I suppose, in a perfect world, we wouldn't need the courts to tell us that we have to do things like this. I suspect that it is in most companies' best interests to have a site that everyone can use and from which everyone can make purchases. Even if the ADA lost, it's not exactly good press for your company when you have to go to court against them in the first place.
(I'm not saying that I disagree with the ruling; don't really have a qualified opinion on whether or not these standards should be law.)
I don't want to be an asshole here, but (Score:4, Interesting)
And as for the 'ease' of compiling a completely different, all-text, reader-friendly site...I for one don't want to have to rewrite all the code on the 70 odd sites I administer, for the 1% of the population which is either blind, or unnaturally connected to their "Turbo Gopher" program.
I'm all for readability, and I'm all for the government being required to publish handicapped friendly sites, but it should be choice for private enterprise. If they don't want the extra cost for the extra business, so what? That should be their choice, especially in regards to a format like HTML which is SO heavily visual.
Christ, it's like mandating Radio stations play a streaming "text band" along with their signal, so that DEAF people can enjoy it too.
Two points (Score:5, Insightful)
I think this is an important fact. Being blind and using an inherently visual medium is always going to be difficult in some way. Coupled with the fact that the judge recognized that there are no guidelines from a generally accepted authority means that there wasn't anything for Southwest to comply or try to comply with.
2) The person could always use the phone and talk with a real person. The problem with disabilities is that human beings can adapt. Computer cannot. The ADA made things accessable (wheelchair ramps). Once inside, people can help deal with the individual disability.
For example, say a disabled person comes into a clothing store. They need help.
a) Say they are visually-impared. The employee can help describe colors and styles and pick out correct sizes.
b) Say they are hearing-impared and are mute. The employee and customer can communicate through written notes.
c) Say the employee is in a wheelchair. They may just need the employee to reach clothing for them.
The ADA does not say that all stores must have little tags on the clothes that give a verbal description when you press them or require everything to be at a height so that a person in a wheelchair can reach them.
A computer cannot adapt. Humans can. You cannot expect the WWW to give a disabled person the same abilites that a physically human being can. We do not have enough programmers to program each and every scenario on every page. Guidelines are nice, but no amount of guidelines will be sufficent at this time to make it as accessible as picking up a phone or actually going to the mall. An online clothing store is going to always rely on pictures to convey information. It will be a long time before a Clippy's great-great-great-grandson or granddaughter can come on and answer questions asthetic questions about the particular piece of clothing for blind people (or in my case color-blind people).
Brian Ellenberger
Re:Two points (Score:3, Insightful)
True, but the Web is not an inherently visual medium. There is nothing inherently visual about the comment you posted or the words I'm typing now. I could just as well be listening to your post read aloud and dictating my response by voice.
There is nothing inherently visual about buying airline tickets over the Web.
Why let this go to court? (Score:3, Interesting)
If you really feel you are in the right, is it your duty to do as Southwest did, and make them follow up on their threat to "take you to court" if you don't do what they want? Certainly, their lawyers charged SW a pretty penny, maybe more than their web people would have, so do you think they weighed the cost and just said, "aw, screw it, let's give the blind what-for!"
I guess the real question would be, what would one cost them versus the other, and did they act in the best interests of their stockholders, or did they do what they thought was right?
Final thought: If, after this is all over, they made their website blind-accessible, what a great statement would that be?
How many of you are actually disabled? (Score:3, Insightful)
I am myself hearing-impaired and this means that I fall under the ADA. When I went to college I could get them to give me a note-taker if I'd wanted to.
There are many things I can't do that aren't covered by the law -- for example I've been getting interested in birding. But I can't hear birdsong for the most part, and I have no directional hearing. So any calls I do hear -- I can't tell where they're coming from to take a visual look to see what made the noise.
I accept that shortcoming, as I accept many others, because I know that my disability prevents me from doing some things. But I don't feel that I should be less able to access, say, the Internet -- just because it's not a "physical place". If web pages required sound in order to function rather than sight, I'd be in quite a fix.
Should it matter what it would cost to fix that problem for a webmaster? No. Why? It's discrimination, plain and simple. It sends the message 'We don't want you deaf people coming in here.'
Might as well put up a sign that says "No (insert ethnic group here) need apply."
Re:How many of you are actually disabled? (Score:3, Insightful)
Might as well put up a sign that says "No (insert ethnic group here) need apply."
I disagree. Ethnicity does not inherently prevent or disallow someone from e.g. reading or listening.
Re:How many of you are actually disabled? (Score:3, Insightful)
If web pages required sound in order to function rather than sight, I'd be in quite a fix.
This is an excellent point.
I would note that if, say, you were on a site that had previews of music, a deaf person shouldn't be surprised if he weren't able to listen to the samples.... Nor would it make any sense to outlaw putting such samples online. If the point is sound, then somebody who can't do sound just must miss out. But that's OK. (There are lots of sites on the web which either don't interest me, or which are inaccessible to me due to, for instance, a lack of proper advanced education. I don't begrudge those pages to the folks who are interested, however. I do begrudge it, however, when a bank or other "general access" site requires specific software; that's an entirely gratuitous limitation.)
Where it's a travesty is when the information doesn't intrinsically require sound, but then it is coded in such a way that it becomes inaccessible without sound. Similarly, if the information on a webpage is textual, it is a travesty not to code it in such a way that those who require text-based readers can cope (including blind folks who use some sort of text-to-speech device).
-Rob
Re:How many of you are actually disabled? (Score:3, Informative)
Anyway, for people like you and me, I've said in another response to my post that there need to be free (supported by taxpayers, perhaps) or cheap (same) tools to make sites more accessible. Right now the tool that works with my web development software is priced out of reach for hobbyists like me
As for the racism comment... what I had in mind was the notion of rejecting someone because of some attribute about them that they can't change. I can't give myself perfect hearing any more than someone can change the color of their skin. Maybe it could have been said a little better. Hope that clarification helps a little.
Re:How many of you are actually disabled? (Score:3, Insightful)
[snip]
As for the racism comment... what I had in mind was the notion of rejecting someone because of some attribute about them that they can't change. I can't give myself perfect hearing any more than someone can change the color of their skin. Maybe it could have been said a little better. Hope that clarification helps a little.
Quick question here: you say in your first paragraph that non-disabled taxpayers, such as myself, should pay for (or subsidize) accessability tools for the disabled, tools that we do not need to use... [stay with me here]
And in your second paragraph, you say that the essence of your argument was that this discriminates against a feature of someone that they can't change.
Well, I can't change my non-disabled status (and don't go being silly like saying I could poke my eyes out), and I am economically discriminated against because of it - in that I need to pay these higher taxes and you don't.
There's a double standard going on here, even though it's not politically-correct to admit it. Yes, it would be nice if everyone started on an equal footing, but physical disabilities are not the only ones - there are mental disabilities (including simply sub-par IQ), emotional disabilities (from bi-polar disorder to SAD), economic disabilities (my folks don't have a house in the Hamptons), social disabilities (thick glasses and a pocket protector do make it tough for you to get along in society), etc. The physical ones are just a LOT more visible.
Question - are you willing to subsidize all of the people with Seasonal Affective Disorder who can't make it to work in the winter? Are you willing to pay higher taxes to support them? What about people who, like myself, are photophobic? Will you pay my bills through the summer, or subsidize sunglasses for me?
Of course not. And I'm not saying you should, I'm simply saying that there is a double standard going on here, and at some point we need to step back and take a look at what is really a 'right' and what is a 'privilege'.
-T
Re:How many of you are actually disabled? (Score:3, Insightful)
No, You need to reshuffle your priorties. There is nothing stopping you from providing a free service to site that aren't compliant. If you think this is so important then you can offer to bring commerical sites up to accesibility standards and maintain them at no cost to the site owner.
Of Course using your time and money will require more of a comitment than taking the easy way out and forcing others to meet some social goal that you claim is desirable.
The judge is right... (Score:3, Interesting)
so this needs to be thought out.
You are not required to have your house ADA-compliant, but even your personal web site
is just as publicly accessible as a big company's,
and so should every Joe Frontpage be forced
to make it compliant after such a precedent?
Do you need a website to be "Accessable"? (Score:3, Interesting)
Calling: 1-800-IFLYSWA
Recorded voice "Lower fares may be availiable on website"
Human being "Hello this is Ruby, Thank you for calling Southwest Airlines, how may I help you?"
Me,"Sorry, wrong number, thanks."
Up to the point where the recording said lower fares may be availiable on the website, I thought, what a stupid ass lawsuit, you mean to tell me these blind people don't have a phone?
But then listening to that, it made me draw 2 conclusions, either...
A. There really ARE lower fares on the SW website.
or
B. It's just a trick by marketing to whore your info from you over the web.
Either way, SW would be at fault in an accessability lawsuit unless they
A. Upgrade the workstations the phone people use so they can read websites to blind people.
B. Add "alt" tags.
Maybe the judge should consider that.
How accessible should a Web site be? (Score:3, Insightful)
But how far must we go before "reasonable accommodation" means unreasonable allocations of development resources? One of our information designers just completed an accessibility overview of our site using section 508 and WAI guidelines, and the list of accessibility problems was somewhat discouraging: lack of alt attributes in img tags, complex table layouts, incompatible navigational elements--even the language used in our site copy could be regarded as difficult to follow for those with cognitive or reading disabilities. The cost to refactor our site architecture to conform to these guidelines would far outstrip any additional revenue we might gain.
On the other hand, we have a toll-free customer service number, staffed 24 hours a day, that allows you to access all of the products we offer for sale on the Web. So, is that "reasonable accommodation?" Or must we cater to every person with any type of disability, even if such a disability might prevent them from even being able to use the products we offer?
physical distininction (Score:5, Insightful)
Disgrace! (Score:4, Informative)
Some other silly stuff from this judge:
Web designers must now take it on themselves to dissavow propriatory and impossible garbage such as activeX, and Flash when designing important sites. Google reduces the entire web with simple text, ticket sales should be so easy. Please use only published and open standards for important public services. Hint, you should be able to navigate it easily with lynx, a text based browser.
A good decision at this time... (Score:3, Informative)
I have to agree with the judge... (Score:5, Insightful)
The ADA has two purposes. The first one is to eliminate any discrimination towards individuals solely on the basis of their disability. Therefore, the argument must clearly present that "his disability and only his disability" is the root cause of his inability to access tickets at the reduced rate.
Well, one can argue that universal access doesn't apply. For instance, individuals without computers or internet access don't have access to the web site either. That eliminates the sole "disability discrimination rule" that the suit is based upon. If the judge would imply that SWA would be forced to provide a remedy, the customers that don't have computers could naturally sue along the same grounds. I doubt that the judge will let that happen any time soon.
The second purpose of the ADA is clearly define and legislate uniform standards of access for disabled individuals covered under the "universal access" portion of the ADA. While it is true that the government has officially legislated web standards for "public sector" (government) sites, the same is not true for private sector sites. SWA falls under the private sector. Therefore, there isn't a legislated standard for them to follow.
Result. Case gets thrown out. The ADA doesn't apply. Next case.
Legally, the decision is correct. Ethically, that decision is debatable. SWA should learn that this case will hurt them in terms of bad PR. And while SWA should give him the reduced rate, they are not legally obligated to do so.
Also, I can safely point out that price isn't that much of a factor. The person sitting next to you in that plane has most likely saved more on his/her flight than you have...
QOTD (Score:3, Funny)
"Ada is the work of an architect, not a computer scientist." - Jean Icbiah, inventor of Ada, weenie
Next target: Playboy (Score:3, Insightful)
This is getting ridiculous. I can understand public access for blind people -- ramps, elevators, etc. I can understand brail. I can understand certain features in public buildings to help the blind. But I'm gonna have to kill someone if someone sues McDonalds because they're doors aren't "wide enough for 700 pound poeple to fit through" or sues the movie theaters because their seats don't accomadate 500 pounds worth of ass.
Telling companies to redesign their websites is a violation of free speech. It would be like mandating that Michael Crichton also release his books in brail, and threatening to fine him if he doesn't. Companies shouldn't have to spend millions of dollars making sure that the 0.1% of people who are blind can use their website easily.
And private websites certainly shouldn't have to accomodate the disabled. If I have a website with some opinions by myself on there and lots of other political stuff, and then have a little link saying "buy my T-shirt", that does not make it a commercial site. Its still a private website, and I should be able to do with it whatever I want.
I'll grant you that if the web were more friendly for blind people, it would be a better web:
1. There would be no unnecessary images. All web-sites would look like those of FSF.org.
2. The only places where pictures or sounds would be would be for screenshots or things like that; there wouldn't be banner ads, and structural features of a website wouldn't rely on graphical barriers.
But forcing companies to change their websites evokes free speech issues.
Re:Umm.. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Umm.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Thankfully, given the number of idiot webmasturbators that commit this stupidity, this isn't quite true. Gecko-based browsers (Mozilla, Galeon) will resize any text, even if the idiot that composed the webpage specified a fixed font size.
Still not much help for the totally blind, however. It seems that what was asked for (alt text and a way to skip nav bars) was not that bad. Now that they've won the suit, Southwest should consider doing it anyway as a gesture of good will.
Re:HAHAHAhA! MOD PARENT UP!! (Score:3, Funny)
If you're mostly blind then obviously having a "photographic memory" takes a lot less storage space.
Don't mod me down if you think I'm making fun of the partially-sighted ("I could have sworn I saw someone there!"). I am actually quite deaf myself. Do I want special treatment ? You bet- I want Japanese schoolgirls to
graspee
Re:Umm.. (Score:5, Insightful)
There are two problems with that: First, Judge Seitz ruled that the law does not cover web sites, because they are not mentioned in the part of the law that enumerates the places covered (42 U.S.C. 12181(7) [cornell.edu]. Judges are not allowed to make new laws, however minor.
Second, she ruled that no standard for the degree and kind of effort involved exists, and that it was improper to impose a burden without specifying the limits on that burden. Again, for her to do so would have been to usurp the role of Congress.
Re:Idiot. It matters to the LEGALLY Blind (Score:3, Informative)
Patricia Seitz was nominated to the United States District Court for the Southern District of Florida in 1998 by then President Clinton. She was most recently tied (politcally speaking) to the election campaign of former U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno.
So, I doubt she's a Republican and probably not very conservative.
You may think she made a bad call, however, if you'll notice in the Order granting defendant's motion to dismiss [uscourts.gov] she made the decision that Congress very narrowly defined the definition of a 'place of public accomodation'. (Obligatory 'I am not a lawyer') I would have to agree with her on that issue, when the ADA states that X,Y,Z places are covered and doesn't say "The Internet" as one of those then it doesn't cover it. Personally I think that regulating accessibility in websites is ridiculous. By that logic, all books would have to be printed in braille.
Re:This doesn't exclude the Web from courtesy (Score:4, Troll)
For starters, the website I run (which neither works in Lynx nor is it accessible by blind people) is solely oriented around visual arts, so no, Im not rude, discourteous or odious.
And for your information, Lynx is a terrible browser which doesnt conform to the HTML standard with any degree of accuracy - Nor does it support most of the techologies which have enriched the internet: Java, Javascript, Flash, Graphics, Animation, streaming media.
You need to get real. Calling people names because they dont go to the huge effort of making their website for both visual, blind people and text mode people is ignorant.
Re:This doesn't exclude the Web from courtesy (Score:3, Troll)
No, he's completely correct, you're completely wrong.
the website I run (which neither works in Lynx nor is it accessible by blind people) is solely oriented around visual arts, so no, Im not rude, discourteous or odious.
Yes you are - you just weren't aware of it.. which (ironically) is pretty much the reasong that others are rude and discourteous.
Lynx is a terrible browser which doesnt conform to the HTML standard with any degree of accuracy
Care to back that up?
Lynx is a great browser for text-based access. That's what it was designed for.
Nor does it support most of the techologies which have enriched the internet: Java, Javascript, Flash, Graphics, Animation, streaming media.
Ahem, HOW STUPID ARE YOU?
Of course it doesn't support visual gimmicks, as I said, it's a text-only browser.
You need to get real.
No, YOU need to get real.
The web was created as a tool for sharing information, not to let would-be artists show off the pretty graphics they can make. HTML is a platform-independant language for information exchange. It isn't a graphics language, despite the best efforts of bigots like you.
Hmm, I think I've just been trolled.
Re:This doesn't exclude the Web from courtesy (Score:5, Insightful)
The web, and the world for that matter, should not be designed around the lowest common denominator.
Yes there are times when you want to consider disabled people in what you're doing - but it should not just be a default requirement. This will lead to people thinking that airplanes should have their cockpits designed around [Insert Disability Here] or any other thing.
Why not have firearms designed for people who have no arms?
The world is designed around people - as they should be. You think that the NBA should be required to modify the rules of basketball to allow people with no arms? No. you wouldn't even consider that - so your statements that "If you can't view it in Lynx, you're a bastard for writing it." is shortsighted (pun intended)
Certain aspects of technology can and should be adapted for people with usability issues - but it should not be one of the fundamental design requirements - unless that is the primary market for said technology.
Re:This doesn't exclude the Web from courtesy (Score:5, Insightful)
I am in complete agreement with your view.
Also, I would like to see every one of these "imposing" initiatives be imposed on government FIRST. Let the makers of the laws deal with the consiquences and iron out the problems, in the process creating a market that may (or may not) spread through the rest of the economy/society.
Examples: electric/hybred cars - if the entire GSA fleet was composed of these cute little beasts there would be a LARGE base of parts supply, infrastructure, etc. for the "civilian" folks that want to buy them. Don't believe it? Look at the HMMWV, Jeep, etc;
solar/alternative power initiatives - let the government try running a building on methane and windmills before forcing "Joe waiter" to have to pay for the ramp up;
the web example at hand - mandate EVERY government website at every level for every purpose be accessable to everybody no matter what the disability. as the standard evolves others can use it as they please for added accessability to their websites.
Just 2 examples that I like without taking 3 hours to make the post
The genisis of this outlook came when I saw a local government badger, fine and harass small businesses all the while their own courthouse was inacessable to anybody but the fit (and the zillion steps were no picnic for us either).
Before anybody pipes up about how much it will cost, that is exactly the point. The beurocrats need to see the cost and trouble of these impositions before dumping them on us.
Re:This doesn't exclude the Web from courtesy (Score:3)
No it doesnt. It also governs the design of all buildings. It *requires* that certain buildings be designed around people with disabilities. Almost every aspect of a building has requirements on it with regards to disabled persons.
Reasonable accomodations make sense - otherwise they would not be called "reasonable". The point here is treating the symptom and not the cause.
Cops do have physical requirements on their positions that require that they are fully able to perform within a certain set of guidlines. This would then mean that if a person were able to perform withing the given criteria that they are in essence, not disabled. But seriously - a no-armed person will not become a police officer in the sense we are talking about - they may be able to secure an administrative position - but not a beat position. There is a handicapped wheel-chair bound traffic enforcement officer in Campbell california. and on the back of his wheel-chair is a little "Traffic Enforcment" sign. Haven't noticed if he had a gun though... he has full use of his arms. (and he is an asshole when it comes to parking violations BTW)
Your stateing that the re-design of the cockpit would be unreasonable seems to infer that you were talking about the re-design of an existing cockpit - in which case you would be correct in stating that it would be unreasonable to re-design and re fit. But its another thing to say that lobbying for laws that govern the future design and build of cockpits hold certain design requirements for disabled peoples. And you can be sure that if these types of laws were on the books that there would be some coalition of legless pilots or some such organisation that would be going after legislation to require the retro fitting of cockpits in older planes that they want to fly. Unreasonable - yes, possible, yes.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:im blind (Score:5, Interesting)
The point is that I think it is stupid for *demands* to be made to make other people change their behavior to suit my needs.
The issue is not that there be technology *available* that would allow me to, say, hear slashdot via a text to speach device. The issue is the consideration of laws that would *require* slashdot or any other site to format their page/content in such a manner so as to make it usable with any accessibility device that enables me to comprehendably receive the content.
You can look at the statement as jsut a poor quick joke - or you can read it and think about what it means.
As I stated in my other post - I think that the requiring of any technology to be designed around the few who are different than the population en mass is completely idiotic.
Dont get me wrong - I have nothing against the impaired as it were - but the view on this should be reversed. There should be no requirement on the *content creators* to adhere to some sort of informational accessability law.
It would be one thing for a site to specifically format their content so as to not be accessible to a device for the impaired - but it shouldnt have to comply to some ADA ruling, unless the ADA specs were actually a part of the RFC that specs out a mechanism for forming/making/posting content to any display device (such as HTML browsers or other such programs)
Re:For the Blind? (Score:5, Insightful)
So blind people can't sit in the back seat and have someone drive them through the ATM lane at their local branch bank?
So manufacuturers of Automatic Teller Machine hardware should stamp two different versions of the buttons -- one with braille for the walk-up ATMs, and one without for drive-ups?
It makes sense to have braille text on all ATM machines, financially if for no other reason.
Re:Sort of a pity (Score:3, Insightful)
You know why Lynx is frequently mentioned? Because it ignores your precious design. Not because its backward, but because with Lynx I don't have to wait for your Flash intro to finish before I can buy my airline tickets. I don't have to wade through six Orbitz pop-ups before I can check my flight schedule. I don't have to look at your "haute-couture" yellow and pink color scheme that the market department called "trendy, hip, and sleek". The issue is many things, but the lack of technology is not one of them.
The other tine in this is that Lynx most closely mimics what most common screen readers "see" when translating the web into speech. It ignores all of the s used for formatting rather than presenting tabular data. A screen reader will break down these tables into rows and columns, which is great fun when a screen reader tries to "interpret" a jigsaw'ed graphic that makes up a site's entire homepage. You sift through eighty links trying to find a single one, all of which have no alt tag.
One more thing: You want your e-Commerce site to deal with the government, directly or indirectly? All of this is a moot point. You'll have to do sooner or later, so suck it up. Do you want to fix legacy code or learn how to develop for the Web properly in the first place? Up to you, pal...
Re:Sort of a pity (Score:3, Insightful)
That said, I agree with the ruling -- I don't think that the government should force somebody to make web paged text-accessible. I excercise my choice to avoid graphics-laden sites without text access, and encourage others to do the same. The appropriate way to fix these sites is pressure from users, not by legislation.
Re:Sort of a pity (Score:3, Insightful)
Aren't you the guy I saw this morning, driving his Ford Model T on the highway, doing 30 mph?
If you want to make a car analogy, from your arguments I'd say that you're the guy driving his huge SUV down the road, where the four-wheel drive and extra power of an SUV are entirely unnecessary, and the added gas consumption and safety concerns all in all make it a bad choice. (And an extremely common choice that many will defend to their last breath.) Yet you choose it because you think your selfish desires are more important, and because somehow you think it's more "advanced" than something that makes sense.
The web can and does work well with a text browser. I don't use one (mostly I use Mozilla), but I should be able to. Honestly, how can you justify not supporting a text browser unless your content is intrinsically graphical? And, words are not intrinsically graphical, I don't care how beautiful you think your design is. I'm not even saying that you have to make all pages nothing but single column white on black text. Just use decent web design and standards, and Lynx can adapt. Make it as beautiful as you want, just don't insist on using brain-dead tools that don't understand standards and clean layout. It's not such a big deal, or at least it wouldn't be if folks like you didn't feel so justified in grabbing on to whatever is new and shiny at the expense of what really makes sense given the situation.
I'm not defending outdated browsers. Indeed I wish Netscape 4 would go away, and I wish that none of us would have to go through the annoyance of supporting it's horribly buggy CSS implementation. It's obselete, and has been passed by. That to me is the Model T. Lynx, and text-based browsers, on the other hand, are a different story. They're not just old; they are an implementation of the web for a completely different platform. There's no reason why the text content of the web shouldn't be available on the "text" platform, unless the "new and shiny fluff" critereon is really so important.
I find it very interesting that the majority of people posting here who are saying "I should be able to visit the entire web using a 1980's, text-only browser" are kids.
I suspect you don't know my age. I also suspect it is at least 10 years greater than yours. Maybe you should grow up a bit and attain some perspective before going around calling others "kids".
-Rob
Re:ADA=DMCA (Score:4, Insightful)
now that i have your attention, look, most /. readers, myself included despise the DMCA because precisely it infringes upon our freedom. and that is the problem. the ada specifically takes away freedom from some, to give "access" or in other words, privileges to others. how so.
Bad, bad, bad comparison.
The philosophy behind freedom in a society such as ours is that one should only limit freedom once it begins to harm the health or freedom of others. Hence, at least according to the philosophy, we have freedom of speech, unless we create a clear and present danger, or unless we commit slander/libel. We have freedom of assembly, but that doesn't give us the freedom to assemble on somebody else's private property.
The DMCA limits freedom of expression in completely nonsensical ways. It outlaws tools which can be used for entirely legal purposes, and outlaws even telling people where to find those tools. It limits freedom in the name of preserving certain others' abilities to-- limit freedom! It's completely contrary to the philosophy of freedom in our country.
On the other hand, the ADA is one case where your freedoms to design your building are being limited precisely because without those limits, you can infringe upon the freedoms of others. If you're building a place accessible to the public, then the public, theoretically, has the freedom to come and go. But, unless you make your building accessible for the disabled, certain folks don't have that freedom. So, the ADA limits your freedoms to prevent you from exercising those freedoms in a manner that infringes upon the freedoms of others.
Don't try to compare the ADA and the DMCA. If anything, that will only lend credence to the DMCA. The last thing we want is a whole set of people concerned with a different issue thinking that supporting the DMCA might help their issue.
(By the way: those keys at the lower left and lower right of your keyboard that say "Shift" on them: they are for making capital letters. Thought you might be interested to know about them.)
-Rob