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Open Debate Between RIAA VP And DMCA Critic 100

Posted by timothy from the record-it-from-the-audience dept.
A GW student writes "The George Washington University's School of Engineering and Applied Science along with the Cyberspace Policy Institute are sponsoring some kind (hasn't really been decided yet) of debate between Stanley Pierre-Louis, Vice President Legal Affairs for the Recording Industry Association of America and Professor James Boyle of Duke Law School. Remember, Prof. Boyle just received an anonymous $1 million to fight the DMCA. The event is open to the public. It will take place on Tuesday October 8 in Washington, DC on GW's campus. The abstract and other details are here. Stick around, and the next day you can go to the Supreme Court to see Lawrence Lessig argue Eldred v. Ashcroft."
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Open Debate Between RIAA VP And DMCA Critic More

Open Debate Between RIAA VP And DMCA Critic

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  • A nice thought (Score:4, Insightful)

    by balloonhead ( 589759 ) <doncuan AT yahoo DOT com> on Saturday October 05, 2002 @01:31PM (#4393702)
    It's a nice touch that subjects could be debated in a high profile manner before they are established law (these laws are still in relative infancy), but if this doesn't change anything, then what's the point?

    It would be good if they would encourage open debate on such subjects before they became la though, but I suppose any law which is bought in the interests of big business is at best one-sided.


    • I suppose part of the reason for this debate is to get the word out. Even if it doesn't change anything, hopefully more people will hear about the downsides of the DMCA.

      Sadly, unless it is explained in terms that the average Joe will understand, I'm not sure anybody would really care.

      Regards,
      Sean
      • Well for those of us that arent an averqage Joe how can we watch this is read a transcript? Does anyone know if we can get a recording? October the 8th is by birthday and i think watching this woul dbe an awsome present.
    • It would be good if they would encourage open debate on such subjects before they became la though, but I suppose any law which is bought in the interests of big business is at best one-sided.

      Isn't that what the Congress is supposed to be doing? I guess we need a "shadow Congress" to debate laws, then pass on the modified correct laws to the real Congress to vote on.

      • That's sort of how committees and subcommittees work. Generally, if you really don't like a law, you need to catch it while it is still in subcommittee or committee and try to present your case there. Often these meetings are open to the public (at least on the state level, not sure about federal), and you might get to make your case if time allows. Attending these meetings is also a good way to catch your rep and talk to him in the hall afterward, or to get the scoop by listening to the smalltalk before and after the meetings.

        You can get involved as you want to usually, it just takes the time and effort.
    • It would be good if they would encourage open debate on such subjects before they became law

      They do. And they even broadcast it on C-SPAN.

  • I think... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 05, 2002 @01:32PM (#4393711)
    ...the debate should be recorded, mp3 encoded and distributed all over the Internet...

    • Re:I think... (Score:2, Funny)

      by ahaning ( 108463 )
      I think it should be recorded, MP3 encoded, CSS encrypted, Region coded for China (3?), and then distributed all over the internet, via gnutella.

      Hey, why waste your time killing 4 birds with 4 stones when you can get them all with just one?
    • ...the debate should be recorded, mp3 encoded and distributed all over the Internet...

      Yes, but it still hasn't happened..and probably never will. The RIAA board will put this to a vote, and elect not to participate. They know thier position is unpopular(and fundamentally flawed [slashdot.org]), and that the debate would only bring them negative publicity.

      It will be a lot like Bush's response to the recent Iraqi VP's suggestion of a duel between Bush and Saddamn.
  • I checked the link regarding the info--does anyone know if the debate will be televised, streamed, radio broadcasted, or transcribed? I'd love to be able to read/hear/watch it somehow.
  • A debate and a
    Trip to court over two days?
    Sounds like a party!

  • A link to his book (Score:3, Informative)

    by Henry V .009 ( 518000 ) on Saturday October 05, 2002 @01:34PM (#4393715) Journal
    James Boyle's book Shamans, Software and Spleens : Law and the Construction of the Information Society [amazon.com] looks like something that I will be getting a hold of. The article mentions a public domain book that I would like to take a look at as well. Anybody got the link?
  • Prof. Boyle just received an anonymous $1 million to fight the DMCA
    Its REALLY nice to see that slashdot sold the members information to spam companies and spent the money some place good! =)

    • I'd like to know why this anonymous donor didn't spread some of that cash around and buy a couple of Congressmen and a Senator. Perhaps Prof. Boyle will do so.
      • I'd like to know why this anonymous donor didn't spread some of that cash around and buy a couple of Congressmen and a Senator. Perhaps Prof. Boyle will do so.

        What?? Is K-mart having a sale on congressmen??
        Maybe they shold annonce them at some fraudulent internet auction site...
        I promise to lend my bought congressman to you if i can win the bidding!
        No wait! I just got a better idea... "Congressman Renting INC", my new company...
      • As Dr. Evil found out... one meelion dollars doesn't go very far.

        The XXAA's "contributions" are reoccuring. 1 million wouldn't last long to get their attention.

  • News Coverage (Score:5, Interesting)

    by cbuskirk ( 99904 ) on Saturday October 05, 2002 @01:40PM (#4393746)
    I would assume that there are a few slashdot users out there, who work in different mainstream media outlets. Maybe your in the news department or in tech support. Try and bring this event to the attention of a news director, or reporter. Digital Music is hip and sexy, but the DMCA is invisible. There is what about a 1% penetration in to the American conciousness about it. Sadly nobody cares unless Stone Phillips tells them to. Lets get the word out people.

  • Going too Far (Score:4, Funny)

    by glamslam ( 535995 ) on Saturday October 05, 2002 @01:47PM (#4393785)
    Man, the RIAA is getting out of hand now: RIAA Sues Radio Stations For Giving Away Free Music [theonion.com]

    It was only a matter of time.

  • but (Score:2)

    by k3v0 ( 592611 )
    unfortunately no GWU students will be there, according to the RIAA, because they are too busy pirating the valuable art of creative powerhouses like brittany spears and shakira.

  • Thanks must go to the donor. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Despite the appearence of justice for sale, I'd like to thank the anonymous (coward) donor for their contribution. Hopefully, it will help clear the air and let the truth be seen. However, I feel we're preaching to the converted. These issues need to be publicized in a way that reaches the largely non tech public in a way that they can understand the unfair and illegal practices of the recording industry. Hopefully, artists will turn their backs on the cash and speak out for liberty, justice and the pursuit of happiness.
    • These issues need to be publicized in a way that reaches the largely non tech public in a way that they can understand the unfair and illegal practices of the recording industry.

      Sorry, but that'll never happen in our lifetimes.

      It won't happen because the corporations that are behind the DMCA are either the owners of the mass media or have deals with the owners of the mass media to keep information about the negative side of the DMCA off the air.

      When are you guys going to figure out that there is no good way to communicate with the masses except through the corporate-controlled mass media? When are you guys going to realize that this is why corporations so completely and utterly control the U.S. government today, and why elected officials today are almost to a man sock-puppets of the corporations (remember: you can't elect someone you don't know about, and someone who isn't sufficiently well-publicized will never be elected, and the mass media is the only way to get enough exposure to matter. Nice racket for the mass media corporations, huh?)?

      The corporations have the U.S. locked up so completely that I think the U.S. is beyond help now.

  • They need someone to keep the sites updated:

    Looks like you got to drag your meat body around instead of using your virtual one to visit the lecture with your game avatar.

    [shrug]

  • Make sure you say 'hi' to Seth [loyalty.org] when you are in line all night for tickets ;-)

  • GWU P2P Policy (Score:5, Informative)

    by KingDork2K3 ( 455980 ) on Saturday October 05, 2002 @02:02PM (#4393829) Homepage
    If anyone is curious as to GW's P2P policy, check out the following email which was sent to all students this week.

    From: note@gwu.edu
    Subject: New KaZaA Application Causes Network Problems

    Over the past week, the GW data network has experienced heavy traffic and sporadic problems as a direct result of usage of the new KaZaA Version 2. KaZaA is a popular program used for direct file sharing, usually of media files (music, videos, etc.).

    GW's network does not block peer-to-peer applications like Napster, KaZaA and Morpheus in an effort to maintain an open academic environment. However, network administrators do impose some bandwidth shaping on applications such as Napster, KaZaA and Morpheus to lower their priority and keep them from overwhelming all other GW data network traffic.

    Unfortunately, the recent release of KaZaA Version 2 is causing network problems. KaZaA v2 is extremely adaptive, and appears to maliciously circumvent all controls and restrictions in place to limit use of bandwidth. As a result, the GW network is being overwhelmed by KaZaA v2 traffic.

    Network traffic nearly doubled over the course of a week, overflowing the total capacity. As a result, network latency (the time it takes to return a
    response) from GW to our nearest Internet provider increased over 200 times. This led to slowdowns to Webmail, the overall GWMail system and other applications.

    ISS network administrators have determined that controls built into KaZaA Version 2 prohibit administrators from imposing bandwidth limitations. As a result, ISS has been forced to impose an overall rate-limit on the student residence halls, which produce the vast majority of KaZaA v2 traffic.

    Network bandwidth is a shared common resource. Students who abuse this resource are sapping bandwidth from their peers. Please keep your usage of KaZaA v2 at a minimum and within the legal boundaries.

    Please also be aware that KaZaA and other file sharing applications allow other users from around the world to download files *from you*, off of your bandwidth, which adds to the overall load on the GW network. GW strongly recommends that all users disable the file sharing option.

    Network administrators and ISS management will continue to explore other solutions and, in the meantime, urge each member of the GW community to do their part in managing this shared resource.

    Thank you.

    (This message has been sent in accordance with George Washington University mass e-mail policy and procedure. This procedure is available online at http://helpdesk.gwu.edu for review. This message was requested by Information Systems and Services and was approved by the Chief Information Officer.)

    • Re:GWU P2P Policy (Score:2, Interesting)

      by GigsVT ( 208848 )
      That's a very progressive policy. I know they have more patience than I do. When one of the employees at work was completely using 100% of our T1, I just blocked his Kazaa port completely. Fuck em... You are supposed to work at work (or post on Slashdot), not download movies at 170KB/Sec, killing the bandwidth for everyone else.

      I think selective blocking abusers isn't too bad a policy.

      P2P clients are just so incredibly wasteful, and have so many connections going at a time that it's hard to throttle them or limit their bandwidth.. I think it's incredibly shitty that this Kazaa2 will maliciously circumvent bandwidth limits... at what point does something cease to be legitimate traffic and become more like a virus?
    • Wasn't it USC a few weeks ago that outlawed all P2P? In contrast, the GW policy does not seem to have any RIAA fingerprints.

      They have not outlawed any of the P2P apps. They are just letting the students know that "GW network is being overwhelmed by KaZaA v2 traffic" and as a result they are issolating the problem down to the residence hall level. Sounds like they are doing what they can to keep the network usable for everyone.

      Their email is very informative about the P2P realities in general too. No FUD that I could see.

      Kudos to them and their enlightened approach.
    • ISS network administrators have determined that controls built into KaZaA Version 2 prohibit administrators from imposing bandwidth limitations.

      Can someone explain how this is possible? When I was at Rutgers, they had hard caps on each dorm computer's uploading and downloading per day and per week. If you went over it, you were shut off from the Internet for one week. How can Kazaa prevent administrators from monitoring how much bandwidth each student uses and cutting off those who use too much?
  • This is exactly what the doctor ordered. As a matter of fact, if this doctor dude kicks that idiot VP's ass in this debate, that (in conjunction with that one congressdude's proposed bill) would bring us TWO steps closer to the destruction of this stupid, RETARDED DMCA.
  • I hope somebody has the presence of mind to WiFi this out, or at least record and share it. I would sure like to listen in. Assuming the RIAA doesn't ban recording.

  • NSync, Britney, etc etc etc (Score:3, Interesting)

    by ekephart ( 256467 ) on Saturday October 05, 2002 @02:38PM (#4393965) Homepage
    Everyone knows the RIAA is trying to "protect" the financial security of the music industry. The big selling artists pull in millions for record labels. Less popular artists at least shouldn't lose money for the label given that many artists run under independent labels and still make a decent living. That and a record label is not a government agency; there should be a certain level of efficiency. If executives' salaries are tapping funds, fine, they should be paid less. Either way we need to consider what's behind the collective habits of those that copy music.

    One of the biggest problems I see with music copying is that US culture and the music industry have a symbiotic relationship. We crave and pay for entertainment that's snazzy and cool which the industry provides. However, many people don't want to pay for the one hit wonder and the grossly commericialized entertainer (ie Britney, NSync, etc.) since they know they won't listen to the record in 3 months anyway. On the other hand they do want the convenience of hearing the hits they want to hear when they want to hear them. Whether this insatiable demand and need for instant gratification is good is up for debate. On this basis though, the problem is that without a lot of money coming in it is difficult to feed the public more Britney, more NSync, etc. If that's what the public really wants, then they need to pay for it. The old model of deliver obviously doesn't jive with the new trends in demand. What's needed is a new platform and a new way to pay (ie. pay-per-play). Consider a best selling CD. Many people will only listen to every song once while they will listen to one or two of them over and over and over. Very very simply put the industry can calculate the current cost of a record subtract basically the net gain from lower production costs and add the amortized costs of additional infrastructure. The desired result? The public should be able to pay about the same for more accurately what they actually want to hear.

    What do I do? Although infrequently, I download songs that I will listen to once or twice. These are generally the Top 40 songs you hear on the radio. I don't know why I listen to them at all. I don't particularly like any of them but whatever. Stuff that I will listen to for a long time (Elliott Smith, Lou Reed, Pearl Jam, etc.) I buy.
  • Ready on the left, ready on the right, ready on the firing line... Targets!

  • Time Cube Debate (Score:3, Insightful)

    by davidstrauss ( 544062 ) <david@@@davidstrauss...net> on Saturday October 05, 2002 @03:12PM (#4394078)
    This could turn out to be as fair as Gene Ray's demands for a Time Cube [timecube.com] debate. "I will give $1,000.00 to any person who can disprove 4 days in each earth rotation." It's hard to argue with illogic supported by illogic and get something remotely cogent. Think presidential debates. Conclusion: garbage in, garbage out.

  • Prediction: There will ne no debate (Score:5, Interesting)

    by argoff ( 142580 ) on Saturday October 05, 2002 @03:15PM (#4394097)
    Anyone renember studying the older debates between anti-slave and free slave supporters, or more recently the debate between communisim and capitalisim. It wasn't long before each side was avoiding debates, or getting into worthless squabbles. It's just a fact of life, sometimes only action can resolve problems.

    With both issues, people would cry out, if we could only get along! If we could only communicate! but the problem was not commnication, it was that one side is trying to gain benefit at the expense of others by force or coercion.

    The same is true here. There is no equivalancy relationship here. There is no misunderstanding between civilized individuals. There is simply a raw conflict of interest and no amount of debate is going to change that. We should not be debating with them, but within ourselves - what are we going to do about them? How can we break, beat, or contain them?

    Im convinced that the only way to do that is by insisting on civil-disobedience of copyright laws whenever possible. It is only then, when we drain them of their revenue stream and power that we will win - otherwise we will just be feeding and strengthening the beast intent on killing us.
    • I [am] convinced that the only way to do that is by insisting on civil-disobedience of copyright laws whenever possible. It is only then, when we drain them of their revenue stream and power that we will win...

      However draining their revenue is one of their biggest lies, we should not believe that sharing actually causes the harm they'd like us to believe it causes. Consider what Lawrence Lessig said in a recent speech about sharing online [eff.org]. He had just outlined some of the tactics the large copyright holders propose using against those that share in response to the "harm" caused by sharing (taking down computers over a network was the chief example he gave which he called "digital vigilantism").

      "What is that harm? What is the harm which is being done by these terrible P2P networks out there? Take their own numbers: They said last year 5 times the number of CDs sold were traded on the net for free--5 times. Then take the numbers about "the harm" caused by 5 times the number sold being traded for free: a drop in sales of 5%. Five percent. Now, there was a recession last year and they raised their prices and they changed the way they counted, all of those might actually account for the five percent. But even if they didn't the total harm caused by 5 times being traded for free was 5%."

      I'm going to use his point to serve a different need in this conversation: it would appear that sharing a lot doesn't actually hurt their sales much. When virtually unrestricted sharing was going on the revenue from sales did not drop much.

      Another problem with this approach is the harm it creates for a good cause. By purposefully going against the law you are helping the large copyright holders win by making their argument for them. Violating copyright can be a criminal act in the US and prison is unpleasant. Lawrence Lessig addressed this point directly on /. not too long ago [slashdot.org]. Heed his words in the speech and in his books: we have right on our side but it alone is insufficient to win. We have the better arguments. But we need to get the people whipped up about it. Don't wait for Lessig to win in the upcoming Supreme Court case.

      How many of you contribute by dispelling myths about sharing via your local community radio and TV stations? I'm working at my local community radio station to do just that. There is already a fellow there working on a show with similar aims so I am joining him by interviewing interesting people and contributing to his show. I also do guest spots on other people's shows to tell people about the Free Software movement, the pernicious US patent system, and the struggle for what Siva Vaidhyanathan (in his excellent book "Copyrights and Copywrongs") calls "thin" copyright. I encourage all of you to get off your computer chairs and do the same thing--please note I am not talking about setting up yet another webcast. The people we need to speak to listen to AM and FM radio and watch TV. For this purpose, webcasting is a good augmentation of, not a replacement for, traditional media.

      ...otherwise we will just be feeding and strengthening the beast intent on killing us.

      When it comes to "feeding and strengthening the beast", keep that in mind when the next Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, or Star Trek movie comes out. Keep that in mind when you're pricing a laptop computer or fancy display and you are dazzled by Sony's high-resolution LCD laptop screens. Keep that in mind and buy used major-label CDs or borrow them from the local library instead of buying them new. Your purchases have ethical consequences.

      There are better things to do with that money. As Lessig asks later in the aforementioned speech, "How many [of you] have given to EFF more money than you give to your local telecom to give you shitty DSL service?". These movies, computers, CDs, and fancy Internet connections are distributed or managed by the corporations which work very hard to take away your freedom to use extant technology to share information freely. They want to own our culture and rent it to us on very restrictive terms. And so far too many of the people who know most about the problem have done too little to stop our loss of freedom.

      So please donate to the EFF [eff.org]. Writing fancy software isn't going to help you when corporations that hate you control the routers your software must communicate through. This is a political problem that requires immediate political action. Supporting EFF is an easy way to help.

      • However draining their revenue is one of their biggest lies, we should not believe that sharing actually causes the harm they'd like us to believe it causes.



        I was thinking more of revenues that come from stock options and financing that couldn't be justified to investors unless they have a monopoly on distribution. Even so, I still think that they're a tiny number of artists that wouldn't make out so good (eg Madona) - if the system was fair.


        Another problem with this approach is the harm it creates for a good cause. By purposefully going against the law you are helping the large copyright holders win by making their argument for them. Violating copyright can be a criminal act in the US and prison is unpleasant. Lawrence Lessig addressed this point directly on /. not too long ago [slashdot.org].



        I saw that, and I think Lessing is wrong. Look, if we encouraged going arround destroying property or buildings etc ... I could see his point. But this is copying were talking about here, it is no more wrong of immoral than refusing to go to the back of the bus. If anything is immoral, it is deriving value by restricting the copying practices of others.

        Finally, I'm glad you mentioned things like Star Wars and Lord of the Rings - I like these movies too, and I appreciate having them in my life - but the simple fact is that if they went away our cost of living would still be the same, our cost of groceries would still be too, our quality of life would likely be filled with other just as meaningfll forms of entertainment. You can't say the same about the DMCA - it could have a drastic effect on every technology applied to our everyday lives, in a way that is costfull and very inconvenient.

        We're so used to being bombarded with hype and crap - that sometimes we just think that's the way it is in a free market system. Bull, it is because copyrights unnaturally skew it that way at the expense of more meaningfull research and knowledge. But a free market system is not about markets, or business, but freedom. When you have the right freedoms than economic strength will come naturally. In fact, you can see this with Linux - how the commercial world fought it all they way, but market forces overwhelmed them and are forcing their hands anyhow.
    • There is no misunderstanding between civilized individuals. There is simply a raw conflict of interest and no amount of debate is going to change that. We should not be debating with them, but within ourselves - what are we going to do about them?

      This debate, like the Lincoln-Douglas debates, is not about changing the minds of the debators. It is about changing the minds of the audience. The **AA's revenue stream depends on laws (copyright, DMCA, etc.) which depends on legislators, which depend on voters. Both **AA and anti-DCMA advocates need to convince voters -- not consumers -- voters, to elect the legislators that serve them.

      Does anyone think Valenti or Rosen or Stallman or Torvalds or Perens or Lessig or any of these people are going to change their minds? No. But that's not the goal of this debate.

  • One nitpicking problem (Score:4, Insightful)

    by teamhasnoi ( 554944 ) <teamhasnoi AT yahoo DOT com> on Saturday October 05, 2002 @04:19PM (#4394282) Journal
    Service such as Napster made perfect copies of any recording instantaneously available anywhere in the world.

    Although this is possible, it is certainly not the case. Mp3s are not 'perfect digital copies', yet mp3s are the files that (for the most part) are being ditributed. Perhaps when broadband gives us LAN speeds, we'll see wav files being traded to the point of mp3s. Until then, 'perfect digital copies' (of music) still require access to the origial media. (For most people.)

    Most people can still listen to their cassettes and scratchy records and be fine with the imperfections, so mp3s with their ease of storage and portabillity won't be going away anytime soon. People want a convenient way to listen to music, be it 8-tracks, Cds, cassettes, LPs, mp3s, or what-have-you. Wav files aren't that convenient. Yet.

  • Open door.... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Dark Nexus ( 172808 ) on Saturday October 05, 2002 @05:59PM (#4394641)
    I just hope there aren't any fanatics in the crowd. There's a fine line between supporting your cause and driving others away from it, and there are people out there that can't see that line.

    At worst, I hope the more sensible people shout down the fanatics that are on the same side.
    • You mean fanatics like Jack Valenti and Hilary Rosen? Or fanatics like Stallman and Lessig? Goldwater had it right: "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice."

      The corporate imperators have their fanatics, we need ours more than ever.

  • Siva Vaidhyanathan, whom I interviewed for Slashdot (uncut text of the interview is available over here [indymedia.org]), debated Fritz Attaway of the MPAA (not the RIAA) for NPR's Justice Talking. That debate is ...hearable?... over here [justicetalking.org].

    Enjoy.
  • Will there be a transcript made of this?

    I would love to attend but seeing as air fare from Australia is a little costly...

    If someone knows wether an official transcript will be made, please post it up.

    Either that, or record (audio) the thing and put it in your Kazaa folder. Ironic - yes. Effective - you bet. Would I want a copy - hell, I'd pay for one. (but not much - see airfare above)

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