MS Settles With FTC Over Passport Privacy Complaints 273
There will be a number of stories out shortly (here's an early one) noting that Microsoft has settled with the FTC over privacy complaints relating to Microsoft Passport. Short summary: Microsoft made lots of false representations about the security of Passport, and collected more information than it disclosed in its privacy policy, and now must be penalized in the usual Microsoft fashion - they must promise not to do it again. The FTC's settlement page has the complaint and settlement documents. We've covered this extensively - All Your Bits Are Belong to Us, EPIC's complaints about the integration of Windows XP and Passport, Microsoft Defends Passport, EPIC pushing state attorneys general to act against Passport, etc. In fact EPIC has an entire page devoted to Passport. The FTC settlement requires two main things: that Microsoft adopt basic security practices (what were they doing before?), and that Microsoft be audited by a third-party to assure compliance - perhaps it will be TrustE, since Passport's privacy policy remains approved by TrustE.
Ha (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Ha (Score:4, Funny)
Let's forget about legislators for a second (Score:2)
Re:Let's forget about legislators for a second (Score:3, Insightful)
What are you talking about? Joe user has no idea what any of this is about. It's probably just the big bad gubmint picking on a successful business again. They're just jealous. Don't expect the masses to rise up against Microsoft when they don't even have the foggiest idea what's going on. This stuff doesn't get much mainstream play, and when it does, it's dumbed down to the point where it no longer makes much sense anyway.
Re:Let's forget about legislators for a second (Score:2, Insightful)
Nothing, and I mean nothing short of a tacnuke going off in Redmond, is going to force Joe User away from MS except if Joe User is hurt in way that Joe User understands.
Things that Joe User understands:
Financial Damage is pretty obvious. Financially damaging anyone will make them pissed off.
Lifestyle Damage might not be obvious. Possible example: Joe User likes nude photos of adult women and visits websites that show them. Lifestyle damage would be if somehow the information that Joe User visits porn sites is used against him.
Noticeable censorship would be along the lines of going to a news site, seeing an article on MS, and then not being able to read it because MS deemed something in the article to be bad for MS.
Computer Damage would be along the lines of preventing Joe User from installing Email Client A because it's not OutLook or OLE.
If MS avoids doing all of those things to Joe User, then Joe User isn't going to budge from the status quo.
On a corporate level, MS has to watch out more. If corporations switch away from MS, then that will end up slowly dragging Joe User away also, since there is a correlation between what's used in a corporate environment and what Joe User uses at home. Joe User tends to use at home the same types of things he uses at work...because that way he can work at home easier. If a corporation ends up taking a no Microsoft approach, their employees who don't leave, will find ways to work from home. In otherwords, those people will be much more likely to move away from MS so that they don't have to go into the office to do work.
Re:Let's forget about legislators for a second (Score:2)
Most people go to compusa, and just buy whatever the guy says. This means that they get XP Home, with AOL and all other kinds of useless shit slapped on it. Simply because they don't know any better. And as far as they are concerned, as long as it doesnt crash, A-0K.
It would take a massive education effort to change something like that, and the only massive education system we have is run by the U.S. government, which for the most part is the friend of the business, rather than the consumer. . . so unless we nerds of the world amass and finally take control, things look bleak for the rest of the world.
Promises, promises, promises (Score:5, Funny)
I hope Bill Gates wasn't crossing his finger behind his back...
Better make sure and force him into a pinky swear and swear his soul to the dark lord.... er, too late, nevermind.
Re:Promises, promises, promises (Score:4, Funny)
Can he swear his soul to himself?
Maran
Dark Lord? (Score:5, Funny)
in the darkness,
one password to bind them.
To the race of men Borgates gave them
passwords which would give them power
over e-mail log-ins and on-line shopping
sites.
But there was one password crafted by the
dark lord Borgates which controlled them
Re:Dark Lord? (Score:3, Funny)
And are you comparing Washington state to Mordor? And if so, can throwing a copy of WinXP into the fires of Mount St Helen's break his power?
Maran
Re:Dark Lord? (Score:2, Funny)
Seven megs for the hackers scarce,
Five megs for the grads in smoky lairs,
Three megs for the system source.
One disk to rule them all,
One disk to bind them,
One disk to hold the files,
And in the darkness grind them.
In the lands of Redmond, where the shadows lie.
-Unknown
Kierthos
Re:Dark Lord? (Score:2)
Maybe if you throw in all existing copies of the source. And throw in the source for Office too, for good measure.
Re:Dark Lord? (Score:2)
Re:Dark Lord? (Score:2)
And he deceiveth them that dwell on the earth, by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying that them that dwell on earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a Department of Justice, and did live.
And he had power to give life to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both play DRM media, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast could not play DRM media.
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a cookie on their disk.
And that no man might buy or sell, save he had the cookie.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast; for it is the number of a man; and his number is 666 (William F. Gates III)
It's this kind of thing.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Now if I pulled shit like this I'd be up on fraud charges so fast that the whiplash would likely kill me. Assuming the lawyers hadn't eaten me alive first. But as it turns out that's only true because I'm not completely filthy stinking right.
*sigh*
I mean, I know it's nothing new, and I realize that I probably shouldn't be surprised, but c'mon.... it's just bloody depressing. How can things possibly get better if there's effectively no incentive for companies to behave? Clearly relying on a sense of honor or ethics just isn't working.
I'm going to go kick my cube wall for a while... at least then I'll feel like I'm accomplishing something.
In A country where the rich pilfer our savings ... (Score:5, Insightful)
At least, not until things become so intolerable that the masses overcome their conditioned apathy and subservience, and actually rise up in anger and demand real accountability and real reform. Unfortunately, by then I suspect things will have gone so far the non-violent reform will be difficult, if not impossible, and I sure don't want to be anywhere near the United States when that time comes.
Every great power in history was brought to its knees, and ultimately destroyed, by its own internal, unchecked, and uncorrected corruption. It is extraordinarilly unlikely that the United States will be any different, or somehow immune to this kind of historical tide, and with every such expose it becomes ever more clear that we in the United States have nearly reached that threshhold already.
I mean, hell, the upper crust just got done pilfering the life savings and retirement of the entire middle class, and yet no signficant reform or change has taken place, and the very people so affected can't be bothered to protest or be caught dead carrying a plackard in a public place demanding change, much less actually get involved in the political process and work for peaceful change. Unless this changes, and soon, this trend will not be corrected until it is far too late.
This despicable behavior with regards to Microsoft is appalling and extreme, but it is only a symptom of a much greater, more fundamental, and much more deeply entrenched malaise that affects our entire political culture, and likely spells the beginning of the end of American society as we know it.
It isn't going to be any foreign enemy, or "terrorists" who bring down our country, it is going to be our own inaction in the face of ever wider, ever more flagrant, and ever more destructive corruption. It saddens me greatly to have lived to see such a day.
Re:In A country where the rich pilfer our savings (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:In A country where the rich pilfer our savings (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh, that I had mod points. This is probably the most insightful post I've read in a long time (possibly ever) on Slashdot.
It's amazing to me how many people (especially those *in* the US) can't see this coming. How many people think that the US is, and always will be, indestructable. Sure, we can make great speeches and pull together for terrorism, but our government ``for the people'' is being run for the advancement of large corporations instead. I've always wondered what was going to befall this country, and government corruption seems like it will top the list.
Re:In A country where the rich pilfer our savings (Score:3)
It's the same thing with the polittians...it's not that all politians want to screw the people and help corporations, it's that only those that have enough money get elected. Who has the more money to give? Corporations...they have to give in order to receive x-fold.
Corporations are also taking over the airways and press. They have money and they can drive out the independents, indoctrinate the masses, and as a result get more money.
It's a self-propagating, vicious cycle, it gets deeper and deeper, but it does it gradually so that people do not take notice, do not feel cheated to the point of doing something about it.
You do see side-effects though...all those shootings, kidnappings, raping, etc. It's the aggregate build-up of stress (as in pressure) showing its head.
What are you going to do though? It's not easy fixing it, or it would not have gotten to this point. It's almost like an organism that evolves so that it is stronger. You could educate the people and make them vote for independents, greens, whatever, but that is a lot of work for those who do see the problems, and we are too lazy, too impatient to do anything about it.
Re:In A country where the rich pilfer our savings (Score:2)
Read the news. The Federal Government just made doing what the CEOs of Enron et al did a federal offense, meaning real jail time.
And, just in case you're wondering, when someone commits a crime against you, you can usually sue them and win some fiscal recompensation. So the next time a CEO lies to their stockholders, and thus causes them to lose money, the middle-class stockholders can sue for a portion of their money back.
IANAL, but I do read the news.
It isn't going to be any foreign enemy, or "terrorists" who bring down our country, it is going to be our own inaction in the face of ever wider, ever more flagrant, and ever more destructive corruption. It saddens me greatly to have lived to see such a day.
Are we more corrupt, or less, than we were when we stared a scant 226 years ago?
Labor Unions, Civil Rights, CEO criminal culpability... we've come a long way from when we started, and we've made most of the biggest steps in the last centry or so.
You'll have to forgive us if we slack off a bit; after outlasting communism and dealing with a world that alternatly hates us and wants us to be their best friend, we as a counry have earned a little corruption and selfishness.
Heck, if nothing else, it'll give our next generation something to rebel against. (For an example of what happens when rebels don't have a cause, look up "Whiskey Rebellion.")
Re:In A country where the rich pilfer our savings (Score:5, Interesting)
I do read the news, and the measures which have been taken are laughable and incomplete. Ralph Nader, the guy who finally got the automotive industry to belatedly incorporate basic safety designs into automobiles in the United States decades after they knew better, and chose not to for financial reasons, offers a detailed analysis of just how widely Congress dodged the entire issue, and how profoundly superficial and ineffective the law you cite really is.
In short, its a superficial measure designed to smooth the ruffled feathers of those few who dare, or rather bother, to speak aloud their outrage.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,
You'll have to forgive us if we slack off a bit; after outlasting communism and dealing with a world that alternatly hates us and wants us to be their best friend, we as a counry have earned a little corruption and selfishness.
Or, to put your argument in a more individual light:
"You'll have to forgive me if I slack off a bit; after outlasting my competing coworkers and dealing with an office that alternately hates me and wants to be my best friend, I as a person have earned a little cancer and self-destructiveness."
Corruption isn't some self-indulgence you earn as a result of hard work, it is a cancerous, destructive force that tears a society apart and undermines basic, civil society and the social contract that holds it together, so unless you are arguing that America has earned the destruction it is bringing down upon itself, your argument falls to pieces.
As for the notion of 'needing something to fight against' as a justification for injustice or corruption, so that the next generation has something to occupy their time, I think the absurdity of your words stand upon their own. Indeed, your rhetoric is a perfect example of the kind of conditioning our culture has been subjected to for the last several decades which has resulted in the apathy and submissiveness of our populace which is allowing these sorts of destructive behavior to flourish, virtually unapposed.
He is partially right (Score:2)
Ever read 1984?
You'd be surprised how well that works. Not to the benefit of the common people, of course.
Re:In A country where the rich pilfer our savings (Score:2)
Another chump fooled by "reform."
You can double, triple, quadruple, quintuple or googleplex the sentances for corporate fraud all you want, but it won't make a difference.
This fraud isn't perpetuating because there's some revolving door at the country club prison where corporate executives get caught, do a few months of time and get released only to do it again.
THEY SIMPLY DON'T GET CAUGHT. THEY DON'T GET PROSECUTED. THEY DON'T GET CONVICTED.
And the "reform" bill did NOTHING to change any of that.
Re:In A country where the rich pilfer our savings (Score:2)
And nobody is compelled to enforce in the current administration. They're too busy enforcing anti drug laws, etc. and spending billions to go after petty criminals or establishing a national organization to spy on our own citizens to take the time to look at a company's books and conclude that 2+2!=5.
Pitt is dirty, just as dirty as Cheney, Bush, and Ashcroft.
All of a sudden now, Osama bin Laden doesn't sound so crazy when he says that the US will be destroyed by it's own evil nature. Take that into account, and it makes the current administration seem like the corporate-wing of al Qaeda.
Re:In A country where the rich pilfer our savings (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem with that thinking is that there are lots more people out there without 401(k) accounts, and that didn't lose a single penny in the stock market, because they don't have any money to invest. They don't care about Microsoft, and they don't care about Enron, because neither of those companies have anything to do with them working two shifts and feeding their kids, or harvesting their crops. They're not calling for reform, because they haven't been wronged. What you call apathy is what they call ignoring things that are not important.
As for the downfall of American society - The downturn of an economy, and the corruption of CEOs and the back scratching of companies - these are not new concepts in US history. There is nothing new under the sun - just new generations, and new scams. Far greater evils have beset corporate America in the past 226 years, and if nothing else, the country has shown a tendancy for survival.
But when you've got your food on the table,and your surround sound stereo with the Simpsons Season 2 DVD playing at full blast, its nice to look out and have something to rally against. Because it is my belief that human beings are always at feeling their best when they are on the defensive - something hard wired into our instincts, I guess.
In this case, Microsoft was unethical and sneaky. And its good to cast a watchful eye toward the corporations lest they wrong us. But to rant and rave and call this the end of American society - well... if you were wronged then please do all you can to reform the system. But don't play the victim and blame all of society's ills on the lack of interest of the American public - its quite possible that they have more important things to worry about.
Re:In A country where the rich pilfer our savings (Score:2)
The number I heard (admittedly on a news broadcast, which isn't the best of sources given today's journalistic standards) was something like 60% of all Americans were invested in the stock market and suffered tremendous loss as a result of the corporate corruption (and the governmental corruption, or if you prefer giving the benefit of the doubt, negligence, which hardly gets a mention, but was necessary for the aforementioned corporate corruption to flourish as it did).
60%.
That is more than half of the entire population, and if you consider that those who are below the poverty line likely aren't invested or have 401(k)s, as you say, the percentage of the middle class who have seen their life savings pilfered is likely quite higher.
Pundits have thrown around numbers like 80% of the middle class being affected, though again, I wouldn't necessarilly trust those numbers given the source.
The point remains, though, that their is precious little outcry, and precious little being done to correct a systemic, fundamental problem that allows this sort of pilferage by the priveleged to take place. Hardly surprising given that our president, our vice president, and very like many members of congress have engaged in exactly this sort of activity, though on a smaller, less obvious scale.
Oh, by the way, I'm not playing victim. I'm one of the lucky ones who got out of the market when I read about Microsoft's option pyramiding scheme, did a little digging, and found out just how widespread the practice was. I'm one of the lucky few who enjoyed the ride up the bubble and missed out on its collapse, so I am not speaking from personal outrage, I am speaking from outrage at what is being done to my fellow man by a priveleged few, and the underlying corruption that is destroying my country in a very real, and very measurable, way.
Microsoft's despicable behavior and the government's effective dismissal of complaints against it, are just one symptom. As are the copyright cartel's efforts to circumvent and fence off the last remaining freedoms enshrined in the bill of rights regarding freedom of expression through extention of copyright law far beyond the bounds envisioned by the founding fathers. Are as any number of other ugly, destructive trends routinely discussed here on slashdot and elsewhere, all of which flourish because of the very corruption and ethical bankrupcy in our highest political offices, which in turn flourishes because of the conditioned apathy and subservience that has come to epitomize the American people, including most of those who do sit in those "ivory towers" you allude to.
Re:In A country where the rich pilfer our savings (Score:3, Insightful)
I mean, hell, the upper crust just got done pilfering the life savings and retirement of the entire middle class, and yet no signficant reform or change has taken place, and the very people so affected can't be bothered to protest or be caught dead carrying a plackard in a public place demanding change, much less actually get involved in the political process and work for peaceful change.
1) As you said, this JUST HAPPENED, and then you go on to lament that no reform or change has taken place. Unless you hadn't noticed, several other companies are being audited and investigated for similar actions. What do you want to happen? These things didn't just happen overnight, and they can't be fixed overnight. We are talking about things that happened 2, 3 years ago.
2) These events affected more than the middle class, they affected pretty much everyone because it shot our economy further to hell. Maybe those people aren't out protesting, or trying to get into politics (?) because they are out working to feed their families. I have heard of people who had to come out of retirement and go back to work because their retirement money was wiped out.
3) Unless you haven't noticed, we have this minor little thing called A WAR going on. And maybe another one waiting in the wings. That is probably taking up more than a few resources.
Re:In A country where the rich pilfer our savings (Score:2)
No, it is just the latest iteration of something that has been going on sinced the mid-nineteen eighties. Remember Felton? Remember the savings and loan debacle? Many people who had a life savings exceeding the minimal amount insured by the government lost the difference, and many others had their money in accounts with no such protection at all.
This iteration is not the first time in the last couple of decades the rich have pilfered the savings of the middle class, it is merely the first time anyone has spoken of it in those terms aloud, in the mainstream media, where it can actually be heard.
3) Unless you haven't noticed, we have this minor little thing called A WAR going on. And maybe another one waiting in the wings. That is probably taking up more than a few resources.
Who is it we're at war against this week?
Eurasia?
Re:In A country where the rich pilfer our savings (Score:3, Funny)
Who is it we're at war against this week?
Eurasia?
No, we're at war with Eastasia. We've always been at war with Eastasia.
~~~
Re:In A country where the rich pilfer our savings (Score:2)
You clearly do not live on the same planet as the rest of us, much less in the same country. Denying the existence of class doesn't make it magically go away simply because it doesn't fit your naive world view
As for blaming the victim for their losses, I think enough has been said to debunk that notion once and for all. The fact that someone had more than $20,000 in a bank account at a failed S&L, or owned stock options in liue of pay they could not divest themselves of for five years which became worthless after their CEO pilfered the company, does not in any way diminish the economic crimes committed against them, absolve the criminals (and their political buddies) in the least for their crimes, or in any way place any reasonable responsiblity or blame upon the victim.
Re:In A country where the rich pilfer our savings (Score:2)
Technically, you are correct - but that doesn't make what is happening in Afganistan NOT a war. If war was declared, what would change? Nothing. Does that mean that that little "conflict" we had in Korea wasn't a war?
Campaign financing... (Score:2, Insightful)
Now let's see how much that stops the corporate favoritism. Probably not entirely, but my guess is it would have a very pleasant effect... because the more overt forms of favoritism would be much more likely to land the respective parties in jail.
Just an idea.
Unfortunately, though, I agree with your statements, and sadly I see the US very slowly spiraling down towards its own destruction (perhaps not in the sense that it will completely disappear, but rather that it becomes something which its founding fathers had tried to protect against).
We will see a change when politicians actually make unpopular decisions. That is their job. And it can start with extensive changes to how they are elected. When money drives their campaigns, who do you think will have the greatest influence on their decisions?
Not just politicians... (Score:2)
For example, (From Richard Feymann's book) when Richard Feynmann was a reviewer for new textbooks for an entire state curriculum. He was determined to look them over and give an honest educated decision on which ones were good and which ones were bad.
The stuff he discovered during this infuriated even him:
He discovered that a book that was not even finished (only the covers were sent to the policy makers) had quite a good rating, even though there was _nothing_ to review.
Many of the companies gave him food, flowers, anything he wanted. He rejected it all (or so he claims in his book), but he acknowledged the fact that many of the other reviewers likely didn't object to any of it, and it probably influenced their decisions.
The textbook ratings were (in his words) absurd. People had obviously not even read the textbooks. When he asked other people why they rated this or that textbook that amount, most of them couldn't answer, or would answer stuff like, "Well, the pictures are nice."
He goes on and on... but the biggest thing he noted was the fact that these companies would go to any expense to have him choose their textbooks.
It continues up the entire structure unfortunately. Every level has its price, and these companies are realizing, have realized and will realize that if they scratch someones back just right, they will get anything they want. As long as it is profitable, companies will go to any lengths to achieve their goals.
And there isn't anything you or I can do about it, because even if they can't get to the elected few, they will be able to get to the rest, and that's all that matters. Money matters to people, and when it doesn't matter, then powerful people will stop being nice and start to threaten to keep their power.
A wolf trapped in a corner is more of a threat then a wolf loose in a field. As long as the master feeds it when it's hungry and lets it do as it wishes, the wolf will be a pet, can help with the hunting and will protect those in power who take care of it. Now lets say the wolf starts to eat the masters chickens, rabbits, and dogs because it feels the master isn't feeding it enough. What does the master do. The chickens and rabbits are too unintelligent to realize what is happening, or when they do they cannot do much to stop it. The dogs can try to fight back, but the wolf is far stronger then the dogs, so the dogs leave with their tail between their legs. The only one left to truly fight it is the master... But the master knows that if he corners the wolf, the wolf will bite back. So he has a decision to make. Let the wolf eat as they wish and hope that they won't eat everything, or be injured trying to stop the wolf...
Which decision do you think the master took?
Just a thought.
Re:In A country where the rich pilfer our savings (Score:2)
Just wait until the bottom drops out of the housing market tho -
Re:In A country where the rich pilfer our savings (Score:2)
I have only one thing to say to you: Why do you hate America so much? [salon.com]
Re:In A country where the rich pilfer our savings (Score:2)
Funny, I am middle class and I have lost none of my life savings and retirement. I don't think I'm an exception.
There are a few bad eggs in every group. Some idiots in the middle class decided to ignore all rules of investing and got their fingers burnt. But they don't constitute the "entire middle class." Some crooks in the upper class decided to defraud their shareholders and got caught. But those few crooks do not constitute the entire upper crust.
You've got a chip on your shoulder so large that you can't see the real danger to our society. That danger is the politicians, who will use any excuse to grab more power for themselves. Your call for reform is the excuse they will use to further enslave the people.
Re:It's this kind of thing.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It's this kind of thing.... (Score:4, Informative)
Anybody got a spare fortune and a couple of good lawyers?
Re:It's this kind of thing.... (Score:2)
Re:It's this kind of thing.... (Score:2)
M$ has already been conviced of anti-trust violations. The government has done two things to punish them: 1) Absolutely 2) Nothing. With as little faith as I already have in the government's willingness to enforce anti-trust legislation, I seriously doubt they'll even think about going this route. And if they do, hey, the defendant is Microsoft -- let them off with another warning!
Re:It's this kind of thing.... (Score:2)
Re:It's this kind of thing.... (Score:2)
The consumer loses privacy when their information is dispered *without* their consent. This means that based on the number of websites visted the amount of monetary damage goes up. Additionally that then opens their information up to being sold again as those companies may choose to sell the list of people that visit their site. This in turn can be sold again. So unless you have submitted to the Do Not call and Do not mail lists at the DMA [the-dma.org] you have probably just signed up to get a large amount of additional spam, phone calls, and unwanted mail. I think that this all adds up to at least $1 million per consumer, don't you?
Re:It's this kind of thing.... (Score:2)
I think in this case, MS didn't really break their policy, just bent it a bit, or had sections that were too ambiguous.
Most EULAs essentially boil down to "we can do whatever we want, if you dont like it, dont use the program" The privacy policy (of most sites/apps) is more of a PR thing than any kind of requirement or licensing thing.
Re:It's this kind of thing.... (Score:2)
1. (everybody knows this one) The corporations make big, direct contributions to the government through donations, political contributions, and favorable contracts.
2. (people don't always notice this) Sometimes, the government may feel that it is in the interest of the (short/medium-term) public good to turn a blind eye on violations. Why? Because alot of the megacorps have effectively become infrasturcture providers. If the government went after MS with full force, and ran the thing into the ground, the business sector of the whole damn country would be floundering and faltering for a good couple years, at least. That's not a good thing, at least not for those couple years, and certainly not when you need to stay stable enough to position yourself as the "leader of the free world".
Granted, long-term, the collapse of some of these megacorps could be beneficial for the industry they control as well as the economy as a whole - but only through the result of some pretty severe short-term chaos.
-Andrew
Re:It's this kind of thing.... (Score:2)
Granted, long-term, the collapse of some of these megacorps could be beneficial for the industry they control as well as the economy as a whole - but only through the result of some pretty severe short-term chaos.
So instead we bolster the short-term, at the cost of long-term chaos?
This sort of justification is, I fear, both shortsighted (by definition) and very prevalent. In the long long term I have confidence that things will be OK. Unfortunately, by "long long" I mean centuries. In the merely long term, we are going to have very big problems unless we buckle down for the risk of a little bit of short-term chaos.
-Rob
Re:It's this kind of thing.... (Score:2)
That's not a reason. That's an excuse-- often put forward by big-business-controled media outlets. The incessant blinking at violations is what caused enron, WorldCom, and the current trashing of the stock market.
Blinking at violations by the big boys is in the interests of the big-money criminals -- who happen to also pay big money bribes^wdonations to the politicians who make the rules.
The truth of the matter is that just about everybody in congress today should be charged with influence peddling -- but that migh be 'un-american' and 'get in the way of the war on drugs'.
(someone else said:)
In the long long term I have confidence that things will be OK. Unfortunately, by "long long" I mean centuries.
Given the direction things are going, the closest thing to an 'OK' solution would be the peaceful collapse of our society (as opposed to widespread horror and tyrany). I have a friend (a very thoughtful friend) who is declining to have children because he and his wife refuse to bring children into the future that they see coming. I see the same future, but am only slightly less defeatist about it.
more reasons why the government doesn't get harsh (Score:2)
Going aginst Joe MegaCorp is a bit harder. They can afford to put massive effort into stoping your prosecution. Note the work of Microsoft in the DOJ case. Also: the tobacco companies for the last 50 years.
Before MS, it was IBM. When the government moved against IBM, the litigation took the better part of a decade. The government had an entire floor of a building taken up by the legal team working against IBM. When IBM found out about this they decided to do a bit of psychological warfare. They demolished the building across the street from the government team, and raised a new building for the IBM legal team (with big 'IBM legal' logos facing the Government team's offices).
Between opposition like that, and the fact that your congresboss is getting worried about loosing thousands of dollars in bribes^w donations, it's easier to go after the little guy.
Re:It's this kind of thing.... (Score:2)
This is not the anti-trust trial by any means.
Re:It's this kind of thing.... (Score:2, Interesting)
We need something basicly Win32 compatible, with NT driver support and alternative standard apis/apps such as mozilla, quicktime, opengl etc
I also think it should be commercial, and heavily funded. This is the only way of turning the windows monopoly into the windows STANDARD.
IBM?
over, and over again big companies (Score:2)
So now there's a pro and con to this.
First off, somehow corporations haven't managed to get the right to vote, yet. Could you imagine all the mess if fully-owned subsidaries got the vote, and how many of those Disney could spawn when it came time to elect another Bono or Hollings?
Second, what about the death penalty? Certainly if a person sold a product he *knew* caused cancer, kept doing so, and lied to everyone including Congress that it didn't, that person would get the Chair. I've heard that there is a "dissolution of charter" that is the equivalent of a death penalty for a corporation, but has it ever been ordered as a response to wrongdoing? On the side, even if Arthur Anderson goes under, it won't have been a death penalty, it'll have been the sharks circling what the government exposed as weakened prey. (agreed the government did some of the weakening, too)
It's funny because... oh nevermind. (Score:2, Funny)
Well, I'll get it right one day
Re:It's this kind of thing.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Or maybe it is... hmmm....
Maybe if I just had a few Billion dollars I too could get out of just about anything.
Hmmmm.
Yep, I think that's actually more depressing than individuals and corporations being treated differently.
Auditing by 3rd party... now we're talking! (Score:4, Insightful)
External, on-going evaluation (Score:2)
Microsoft must also have its security program certified as meeting or exceeding the standards in the consent order by an independent professional every two years.
So now the question is: who gets to determine who the "independent professional" is? Should be interesting to see what the standards are, too.
Standard remedy... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Standard remedy...NO ! Don't do it. (Score:5, Insightful)
NO NO NO NO NO. Don't use Passport at all. it is a nice idea to give them no personal info, until they get you and everyone else using Passport, and then decide for "security reasons" that they require your credit card number and/or SSN for age verification. What will you do then? Not use it? Nope, by this point they have everyone by the short hairs, and you will smile give up that info like a nice little sheep while they are snickering under their breath "suckers". If you don't 99% of the people will.
Think it won't happen? Who is going to stop them?
dont like the settlement? TELL THEM! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:dont like the settlement? TELL THEM! (Score:2)
If anybody here gets called in for an audit (Score:4, Insightful)
Ok?
Re:If anybody here gets called in for an audit (Score:2)
MS can collect all the information they want. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:MS can collect all the information they want. (Score:4, Insightful)
They may not be able to access it, but it'll be wide open to every script kiddie in the universe.
Re:MS can collect all the information they want. (Score:2)
A TrustE is still a con. (Score:2)
> [
> The FTC settlement requires [...] that Microsoft be audited by a third-party to assure compliance - perhaps it will be TrustE, since Passport's privacy policy remains approved by TrustE.
Wait a minute. As punishment for invading everyone's privacy and lying about it, the FTC orders them to have their privacy policy overseen by someone like unTrustworthE?
I thought you said the FTC told them not to do it again!
Maybe it depends on what the definition of "do" is, but "Do it again, and harder, and no lube!" is not the same thing as "Don't do it again".
One law for all (Score:2, Funny)
people will decide (Score:3, Insightful)
But then, it is not that new that money can buy you impunity.
In the end, the people will decide whether they want to trust M$ with their private info. Microsoft suffered a big blow in term of PR with the DOJ, so passport will probably be slow taking off.
But then, people also have very short memory and tend to be lazy. If passport simplifies their lives, then it will be a success.
Microsoft can also use strong-arm tactics to coerse people into using it. They can sign some deals with popular websites (like Amazon, Ebay...) to make passport the easiest way to do business.
I believe that most people will be more than happy to give M$ full control over their on-line life. People are sheep, following the trend without thinking about it. Let's just hope that they will not force the power users into it because passport will be the de facto standard. A bit like we now all have to use Windows at work...
so it is written and so it will be (Score:2)
Yep, this sounds like phase one to me: make it inconvenient to NOT have a Passport account, then phase two is roll into Palladium and make it impossible to buy or sell anything on the net without it. Then phase three is an implantable ID chip, which will have some great encryption that will be "impossible" to break because all the equipment that can decode it is tightly controlled by a bunch of laws, and cross-industry agreements that will ensure international acceptance. This will greatly reduce fraud and also increase national security, and so in the final stage, no one will be allowed to buy or sell any goods without a proper ID, which could be put on the back of your hand or your forehead.
Hey that sounds familiar. I wonder if Bill is going to survive a terrible head injury. I'm going to go out to the parking lot and jump into the air for rapture practice. I hope it comes pre-trib.
Re:people will decide (Score:2)
Correct. You can not enforce morality. MS has not broken any law, you are allowed to overstate things in the world of US marketing. The FTC just wants to regulate passport mainly due to consumer advocate complaints. MS is fully cooperating. This is a good thing.
Microsoft's PR Response (Score:5, Informative)
From: passexec@microsoft.com [mailto:passexec@microsoft.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 10:20 AM
To: *****
Subject: Passport Resolves Issues with the US FTC
Very soon you will be hearing about an agreement between the United States Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and Microsoft regarding the Passport service. As a Passport participating site I wanted to contact you directly in order to provide you with information about this development.
This agreement is really about two things: making sure our statements about the service are clear and accurate, and ensuring we are meeting a very high bar with regard to online security.
We recognize that if we are going to be true to the high bar we set, we must take responsibility for the past and lead into the future. We realize some of our marketing statements in the past could have been clearer and in some cases less enthusiastic. We've already changed them and are working to complete an independent audit of our information security program which will give our customers added confidence that we are meeting this high bar.
I want to assure you that this is not an indication that the service itself is unsound. As you know, network security constantly evolves. What was reasonable in 1999 would not be reasonable by today's norms. While we believe we have always employed reasonable and appropriate security measures (in fact we know of no instance where a Passport user's information has ever been compromised), we understand the FTC's concerns and in hindsight wish we had held ourselves to an even higher bar.
We recognize the role of the government in this effort and we worked closely with the FTC to address these issues. This has been a far-reaching and thorough process and we have had an ongoing dialog with the FTC that has lasted several months and resulted in this agreement. We are committed as a company to being a leader in this field.
As a result of this experience, as odd as it seems to say this, I believe that the Passport service is better and more worthy or your trust than ever. You should know that:
We will meet and hope to exceed the high standards set by this agreement
We have planned for some time to conduct regular 3rd party audits of our service, and now we will provide the results of those audits to the FTC. These assessments will help give you and your customers the added confidence that we are living up to our commitments to run top quality services.
The allegations in the complaint are made in the past tense. We have made continuous improvements to the Passport service, and many of the FTC's concerns had already been dealt with as part of our normal service updates. I want to ensure you that we remain committed to improving and enhancing Passport.
I am sure that many of you are already thinking about what you will need to tell your customers. While I am sure that everyone's situation is unique I would encourage you to link to the information that we will be posting on Microsoft.com. This will include both a formal statement and a less formal interview with me that goes into more detail on the issues surrounding this agreement and its impact. We hope that these resources will assist you in speaking to your customers. When published, this information will be at http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2002/
Thank you for taking the time to read this mail. I am very invested in continuing to earn your trust as both a business partner and a consumer of our service and I hope that I have been able to communicate to you how committed we are to making Passport the highlight of our Trustworthy Computing Initiative.
If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact me via this email address.
Sincerely,
Brian Arbogast
Corporate Vice President
Microsoft Corporation
Re:Microsoft's PR Response (Score:2)
(The fact that it rhymes with bombast [m-w.com] tickles me, too; particularly appropriate in the current context IMO.)
I loved the euphemism at the end of the article:
It's not like Microsoft has a large PR department or anything... probably the translation from Corporate Journalese to standard english is "Microsoft was unable to respond with anything printable."
Re:Microsoft's PR Response (Score:2)
Then, of course, there's MS's council of record (at the end of the consent decree [microsoft.com]:
Charles E. Buffo[o]n.
Hotmail hacks don't count? (Score:2)
I seem to recall more than a few hacks that would allow someone to read Hotmail accounts they shouldn't have. These hacks were generally cross-site scripting attacks, but these were after Passport was installed. Doesn't that qualify? Oh, maybe this particular MS marketing team didn't know about them, so it's alright to make the claim. That's not 'misleading'.
Re:Microsoft's PR Response (fixed link) (Score:4, Interesting)
While I'm at it, I'm going to use some information that they used at their site in a slightly different order:
- First, the FTC said that [Microsoft] failed to implement and document procedures to prevent, detect, monitor or document unauthorized access.
-
Hence, [Microsoft knows] of no instance where a Passport user's information has ever been compromised, in hindsight we wish we had held ourselves to an even higher bar.
Now whack me on the back of the head with a two-by-four if I'm wrong, but given that they had been lax in monitoring for security violations, is it any shock that they don't know that we^w someone violated them seven ways from tuesday?Re:Microsoft's Metaphors (Score:2)
Maybe if they stop using such pointless metaphors as "meeting a higher bar" they could think themselves out of a paper bag and learn to anticipate the consequences of their crass, unthinking actions.
How to cook a lizard (Score:2, Offtopic)
If you want to cook a lizard, put it in a pot of cold water, and then slowly raise the temperature. The criter, being cold blooded, will not notice the temperature change as its body will follow the external temperature shifts.
Now if you would throw a lizard in a pot filled with boiling water, it sure would notice, and run the hell away..
The same goes for most bad relationships humans find them selves in. If you would end up in the situation you are in now instantly, you would scream bloody murder, and never accept it!
However, since change happens slowly and small step by small step, people always seem to think "well that little bit extra doesn't make the difference". And you end up in an incredible nightmare, without realising it !
I gues in a way this describes the situation that most people find them selves in with microsoft. They don't know what happened since it never happened in one go.. They don't realise just how disfunctional the relationship is.
Some day people might wake up, but historical evidence would dictate this will not happen untill we are in a LOT bigger mess then we would ever consider acceptable from the start.
Funny.... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Funny.... (Score:2)
http://www.msnbc.com/news/791587.asp?0dm=C12PT
Sad state of affairs (Score:3, Insightful)
This government has bowed to corporate interests at every turn. I'd be happy to see a list of cases where individual freedom was held in higher esteem than corporate interests. This is yet another side effect of the US's desire to remain an economic superpower. It has changed from a Representative Democracy to a colossal beauracratic corporation. Perhaps we should call it The United States of America Inc.?
Remember folks, a government that tramples the rights of the citizen is a tyrannical government. There is no leeway for arguement in that.
A meager victory, but a galvanizing issue... (Score:3, Insightful)
Throuhout this case, I've been most impressed ith the coalition that was formed between the plaintiff organizations. It's reasuring to see such coalitions formed in support of issues where until recently it seemed a losing battle was being valiently fought by a few small groups with no unifying structure arounmd them. Regardless of how meager this victory seems, it's important that the issue was addressed in that it galvanized these organizations and brought them together in a way we have rately seen thus far. I hope we see these organizations continueto work closely in the future.
--CTH
Public comment is open until September 9 (Score:2, Informative)
So tired... (Score:3, Insightful)
Bill Gates in the Princess Bride (Score:2, Funny)
General Public: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Gee (Score:2)
You know, the one that explains why passports shitty privacy is actually good for us.
well.. (Score:2)
or let me be me
so let me see...
Can't register for Hotmail / Passport with Mozilla (Score:3, Informative)
Microsoft®
TrustE is owned by Microsoft (Score:5, Informative)
I remember this big stink a few years ago about Microsoft having the majority stake when TrustE was founded.
Heck just look at the Privacy Statment at WebTV/MSNTV [msntv.com].
Use Mozilla, not Passport (Score:2)
To see an explanation of why Passport is not needed, see the fourth paragraph of the section "What is your name and address?" means "Can we invade your privacy?" in the article that I wrote about Windows XP problems: Windows XP shows the Direction Microsoft is Going [hevanet.com].
For older articles about Passport, see:
Stealing MS Passport's Wallet [wired.com] (Passport has been cracked in the past.)
MS and Its Terms of Embarrassment [wired.com] (Maybe this license was Microsoft's true intention.)
My Letter to the FTC (Score:3, Interesting)
FTC
Office of the Secretary
600 Pennsylvania Ave., N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20580
RE: Microsoft Passport Settlement
To Whom It May Concern:
I am writing to inform you of my disappointment with the recent Microsoft Passport Settlement.
This settlement charged Microsoft with false representation on several parts, but my concern deals with the fact that the settlement lacks a penalty. Instead, it includes:
(I) ... shall not misrepresent in any manner ... its information practices ...
a. They should have been following this from the beginning, not waiting until after they get caught.
b. They should not have to sign an agreement to obey the law.
c. This is basically saying "Don't do it again."
(II) ... establish and maintain a comprehensive information security program ...
a. They must have had such a program, or one very similar, already in place if there was originally any security at all.
(III) ... obtain ... an assessment and report from a ... third-party professional ...
a. It should be further stated that the third party must not have done work with Microsoft prior to, during, or in between these assessments other than this specific series of assessments, thereby avoiding any potential bias in the assessments.
b. Furthermore, it should be added that the third party must not receive any payment, gift, or benefit from Microsoft other than the exact dollar amount, which should be stated clearly in the agreement, for payment of the assessment, which cannot be raised or lowered without the FTC's approval. This measure is necessary to assure that there will be no form of bribery or additional compensation between Microsoft and the third party.
(IV) ... upon request make available to the Federal Trade Commision ...
a. I currently have no complaints on this section.
(V) ... deliver a copy of this order to all current and future ...
a. I currently have no complaints on this section.
(VI) ... notify the commission ... of any change in the corporation ...
a. I currently have no complaints on this section.
(VII) ... file ... a report ... setting forth ... the manner and form in which they have complied with this order.
a. I currently have no complaints on this section.
(VIII) This order will terminate 20 years ...
a. I currently have no complaints on this section.
The measures set forth in this agreement are essentially those that prohibit the reoccurrence of such a violation that inspired this very agreement. Nowhere in the agreement is there any penalty for violation of a federal law, such a fine or prison term. If a fine is pursued, then it should be a set amount, relative to the gross profits of the company, so that future violations by any company, regardless of the size or nature of the company, could be treated similarly and on similar terms and without bias or discrimination.
Thank you for taking the time to give serious consideration to the issues I have presented. I hope that justice will prevail.
Signed,
[hand signed here]
--
Microsoft will never regulate itself (Score:4, Interesting)
Microsoft is part of the legacy of the 80's mentality which is "looking out for #1." This translates to "increasing the bottom line at any cost." This makes them reckless and dangerous. Damage has already been done, is being done and will continue to be done until they are halted.
They cannot be taken for their word as they have shown to be very deceptive already and continue to be so.
If testimony under oath was true, that if revealed, the vulnerabilities of MS Windows could represent a threat to national security, then MS should be abandoned by all national and state government systems as soon as possible. It's not "if" these vulnerabilities are found, it's "when" and the code to exploit such vulnerabilities can be developed anywhere on the planet.
I think the value of money pales in the face of national security and privacy concerns. The economy is already in trouble and we're not going to save ourselves by keeping predatory corporations afloat long enough to destroy themselves abruptly as other large companies have already done. An orderly shutdown is a much better approach.
Bill Gates and all those in control of Microsoft should resign.
Better still, keep it all in one place! (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not convinced that splitting up Microsoft is a good solution. Look how well it worked for Ma Bell--we ended up with the Baby Bells, and then devolved from that into the current morass of ethically (and financially) bankrupt telecommunications companies.
No, I can handle Microsoft's monopoly status. But let's start regulating them like one.
Conflict of interest (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Who is the target audience? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Who is the target audience? (Score:5, Insightful)
That's the audience. And once enough of them are on board then the rest of us start being faced with choices like: "If I want to use cool service X I'll need to sign up for a passport because there's no other way to get it". That's the plan.
Re:Who is the target audience? (Score:5, Insightful)
The target audience is everyone. Whether you care about security or not, if Microsoft can create a demand by legislation (such as the Hollings bill) that would mandate DRM and thus some sort of identity verification scheme, or by convincing the majority of hardware/software makers to use their scheme, then you'll be stuck with it whether you like it or not. I think the former option is a lot more likely really. I seriously doubt they could get a majority to agree on anything. Congress, however, is open for business.
Re:Microsoft screws up (Score:3, Insightful)
What are you talking about? MS made mistakes all the time. They just never suffered for them because Bill's money bin is very deep and he's got some very good liars working for him.
Re:With $40B in the bank ... (Score:2)
Re:With $40B in the bank ... (Score:2)
But you need a PassPort to play MS's games [zone.com]!
Re:Passport is only a problem if you let it be... (Score:2)
G. W. B.
1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
Washington DC
or
William H Gates III
One Microsoft Way
Redmond, WA
Re:Passport has integrity (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Passport has integrity (Score:2)
Lynch gangs usually act irrationally. The better Slashdot posts on the subject of Passport, however, are far from irrational; in fact, they are very objective.
The reason: We understand that Passport is a single point of failure, and its design is fundamentally flawed. It inherently does nothing to protect the information housed within it, and only the most naive individual would continue to believe otherwise in the face of the truth.
I will never sign up for Passport voluntarily, and I will actively seek to do business with Microsoft's competitors in this market. If the WWW decomposes to the point of working only in the context of Passport, then this will surely be a sign of the failure of the WWW. I wholeheartedly hope this will never happen, as the WWW, so far, has been one of the greatest resources in the history of Mankind.
We must all work hard to prevent Microsoft from spoiling the WWW further than they already have. This goes beyond resisting Passport, as the potential of Palladium and other overblown DRM schemes is just as dangerous. Already, Microsoft has done damage using an illegally-gained market share for Internet Explorer.
Why are the general public and the U.S. government allowing them to continue unchecked?
This question baffles and sickens me, as the only answers, it seems, are based in the psychology of cults and organized crime.