Hack Your Phone, Go to Jail 577
thodu writes: "This bill [Mobile Telephones (Re-Programming)] in the UK aims to make it illegal for anyone to change a GSM phone's IMEI number. Though the intention in this case is seemingly for the good (to track and prevent stolen phones from being used), the line between legitimate mods and illegal hacks is increasingly becoming blurred. What next - a bill to disallow modifying your PC ?"
Legitimate reasons for changing the IMEI? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why shouldn't something that only serves theives (as far as I can see) be illegal?
Re:Legitimate reasons for changing the IMEI? (Score:5, Insightful)
Because it's already illegal to steal phone service. Removing freedoms without cause hurts everybody.
Also, a silly counter-example - I'm a hacker, and in my basement lab, I've set up my own shielded, isolated cell network, just for kicks. And I want to have phone# 000-000-0001 (Those not in the US, please translate into your own localized version). Just because I *want* to. Or as a scientific experiment, a science fair project, or to learn more about the world around me. Why should that be illegal?
Re:Legitimate reasons for changing the IMEI? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Legitimate reasons for changing the IMEI? (Score:3, Informative)
What is illegal is to change the VIN of a car, not notify the DVLC and put it on the road. This is often done to pass a car as a "ringer" w/the same VIN as another similar car.
It the same vien, a fraud involving changing the IMEI as the modus operandi is illegal. Changing the IMEI for the hell of it and not connecting the the network (comp. putting car on road) should not be a crime.
Re:Legitimate reasons for changing the IMEI? (Score:2)
Re:Legitimate reasons for changing the IMEI? (Score:2)
Re:Legitimate reasons for changing the IMEI? (Score:5, Insightful)
So if 1000 people want to map the human genome to devise some kind of malicious bio warfare and 1 scientist wants to find the cure for cancer. Then the scientist needs to be treated as a criminal while the criminals will just go underground to do their work anyway.
Sorry, but the logic doesn't seem sound in my opinion
Re:Legitimate reasons for changing the IMEI? (Score:2, Informative)
Changing the IMEI number is the equivalent to changing the chassis number of your car. What scientific value would there be in that?
Re:Legitimate reasons for changing the IMEI? (Score:3)
Right?
Spoken like someone who doesn't understand the nature of freedom at all. In the general case, the only things that should be made illegal are those things that do direct harm to others: your right to swing your fist stops at my nose and all that. If there's something you want made illegal but that doesn't directly harm others then you'd better have a damned good reason for it, as in an overwhelmingly good argument supporting your position.
I don't think such an argument exists for the IMEI number.
Re:Legitimate reasons for changing the IMEI? (Score:2)
It's unfortunate that my bad example seems to be making everyone ignore the first sentence - namely that it's already illegal to steal phone service - why invent new legislation that will only restrict law-abiding people?
Re:Legitimate reasons for changing the IMEI? (Score:4, Informative)
Yeah but at the level of the cell phone network hardware, the IMEI number (or in my case the ESN number) is what identifies the phone to the network.
If your phone is stolen and you tell the mobile service provider, they tell the network to disable access to the phone with the ESN# (or IMEI#) shown on your account information. If you change this ESN/IMEI number, you can register this phone again with a new service provider on a new account and the network won't know the difference and won't be able to disable the phone's access.
This is why changing the IMEI number is valuable to phone crooks.
One Reason (Score:3, Insightful)
Because your average JUDGE can't think of any legitimate reason to do ANYTHING!
There ARE legitimate reasons to take almost every drug known to man. From hash to E to charlie. At this point in history we are making a few token laws to specifically allow these uses - against a default background of criminality.
As soon as we cross the line of YOU having to prove you're NOT breaking the law by doing something - rather than THEM having to prove you ARE breaking the law, I get a bit worried.
I might have a cool system where I can have 4 phones act as one by changing IMEIs, which lets me log on on my bike - or something (and please - all you anals out there - chip in with how this wouldn't work - because THATS the point here!!!)
But in a background of this NOT being legal Im breaking the law until I prove Im not a thief exporting phones to Yemen.
Re:One Reason (Score:2, Insightful)
If you want to mod your phone that badly, I'm sure there must be some legitimate channels, or maybe even a license to do so, the point and purpose of this law is quite obvious, and IMHO really does serve its purpose quite well.
Your reason is not valid (Score:2, Interesting)
Your SIM card makes a phone act, not the IMEI number. The SIM card identifies YOU to the phone company, not the IMEI number.
IMEI identifies the PHONE to the phone company - and they would rather not have to check if the phone is stolen or not. They don't make a profit on that.
The IMEI number has one use, only, to make stolen phones easy to track.
Don't waste everybodys time making funny analogies, they simply do not apply. Stick to the facts, please.
Re:Legitimate reasons for changing the IMEI? (Score:2, Insightful)
Nothing to see here.
Re:Legitimate reasons for changing the IMEI? (Score:2)
Why shouldn't something that only serves theives (as far as I can see) be illegal?
Because you can't see everything. Maybe there is a legitimate use, which you aren't able to see.
Two phones (Score:3, Interesting)
I spend most of my time in and near a city with decent digital coverage. I want the smallest phone possible, so I use a single-band digital phone for 99% of my phone calls.
When I'm in the countryside, towers are further apart and I need analog compatibility and as much power as possible. A many-watt multi-band phone is needed to make sure I have a ride back home.
What can I dO?
1. Two phone services. I can sepnd an extra $20/mo.
2. Clone the serial number, using both phones on the same service, neither at the same time.
Before anyone claims that cloning the phone is stealing service, it's not: I would be paying for the airtime because it's a clone of my other phone. There used to be a time when adding another phone to your land-line was illegal, but courts ruled that, although you get the additional benefit of having multiple people talk and listen, you still only have one line to use.
Now, I will leave open one uncertainty: using a closed phone may not be allowed in my contract with a phone company. If so, then fine - I'll move to another provider. Outlawing cloning would stifle competiton from compaines that choose to provide this benefit, and would be anticompetative.
How about enforcing the existing laws? Surely it's illegal to help trade stolen phones. If the phone companies made it easy to identify stolen phones (like, they would get a "stolen phone" message instead of a dial tone, or even better, constantly ring), then it would be much harder for illegal reprogrammers to claim they didn't know the phone was stolen.
Re:Legitimate reasons for changing the IMEI? (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh for FUCKS SAKE. Every time, the same old arguments.
Look, 1 Mr. Geek may want to do this. In fact, no, they wouldn't, but one assy
Being able to do this allows people to steal and use phones, thereby causing 1000's of crimes.
What is more important, your 'right' to modify the phone, or to stop little punks mugging kids for their phones?
Furthermore, the fact is, although it's 'illegal', if you just do it in your room, you are unlikely to be caught and prosecuted for it, as compared to, say, if you did it and tried to sell a mobile phone.
So STFU about your damn rights being impinged on, jesus.
Re:Legitimate reasons for changing the IMEI? (Score:3, Insightful)
I can buy gasoline in most countries, getting hold of sand in small quantities are legal as well. So is buy a coke in a bottle. It is not legal to add those and a rag and walking with it in public.
The whole thing about changing the phone is bollocks. There are no reasons to change the number OTHER THAN BEING ILLEGAL. But if you do it to your own phone, and then don't use it (since you damn well don't own the network), nobody will know, and nobody will care.
Re:Legitimate reasons for changing the IMEI? (Score:2, Insightful)
Believe it or not, little 12 year old nobheads who rob phones on the street are not currently reprogramming them. There is a third-party who does this. Under current laws, sicne reprogramming phones is not illegal, its pretty hard to prove that people who do this are doing anything wrong (they would have to know that the phopnes were stolen).
If there aren't people to reprogram the phones, the thick twats will find something else to steal, job done.
Re:Legitimate reasons for changing the IMEI? (Score:2)
Reprogramming the phones might not be. Switching them on after they have been reprogrammed could well be. Since that creates the possibility of a denial of service to legitimate users.
its pretty hard to prove that people who do this are doing anything wrong (they would have to know that the phopnes were stolen).
That's a problem for law enforcment. Will such a law make things any easier for the average DC? Handling stolen goods is already against the law.
Re:Legitimate reasons for changing the IMEI? (Score:2, Insightful)
The SIM card (looks like the gold chip element cut out of a smartcard, because that's what it is) contains your subscriber identity. The network will block the SIM the moment you tell them the phone's been stolen, and they'd block the handset too (the IMEI is sent as part of the sign-on process), but people are getting away with hacking the IMEIs...
Re:Legitimate reasons for changing the IMEI? (Score:2)
If you want to believe your average 12-16 yo mugger is going to learn how to hack phones, then ok, you win the argument, I cannot argue with you.
Re:Legitimate reasons for changing the IMEI? (Score:4, Insightful)
I own my car, can I scratch the VIN off it?
I own my gas supply, can I leave it running until the street blows up?
I own a radio scanner, can I use it to scan police frequencies?
Society has rules, if you don't like them, fucking leave it!
Re:Legitimate reasons for changing the IMEI? (Score:2, Informative)
Yep, just don't try registering it ever again.
I own my gas supply, can I leave it running until the street blows up?
No, that would endanger others and damage property that is not owned by you.
I own a radio scanner, can I use it to scan police frequencies?
Sure Can.
Re:Legitimate reasons for changing the IMEI? (Score:5, Insightful)
You can leave your gas running, but if something catches fire, you're liable for arson. You own your house, but you don't own the neighborhood, and you don't own the fire department.
And in many jurisdictions, you can scan police frequencies. But you can't transmit on them. You don't own the airwaves.
Re:Legitimate reasons for changing the IMEI? (Score:5, Insightful)
Blowing up your neighborhood is obviously illegal because, well, you blow up your neighborhood. Recklessly endangering others is illegal for very good reasons, and has nothing to do with modifying a telephone that you own.
I assume that the Iraq comment was a joke. But it's a good example. Just saying "society has rules" and not questioning those rules is a good way to end up in a nation where you can't criticize your leaders, religion, or society. I'm not the biggest patriot on my block, and I don't like the direction that America is heading in, but I'm sure glad that we're still (basically) free to live in (almost) any way that doesn't harm others.
A good thing... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:A good thing... (Score:2)
Is a special law really needed. It is already illegal to steal things, traffic in stolen goods, misidentify stolen goods as not stolen, etc.
The law is intended to reduce the amount of phone-thefts in the UK (the phones are then reprogrammed and re-sold).
Over specific laws tend to be bad laws, especially if they require constant tinkering to keep updated. Since the bill specifically mentions GSM and IMEI, which is an indicator of the legislation being too specific.
Re:A good thing... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:A good thing... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's already also illegal to traffic in stolen goods, misrepresent stolen goods as legitimate, defraud telephone companies, DOS legitimate mobile users.
Does this law actually do anything more to deter thieves,
The bill states that it is expected to have litte effect of policing, prosecutors and courts.
this law ultimately serves no purpose that couldn't be served by enforcing stiffer penalties on thieves.
It's apparent purpose is to present the impression of a government "doing something". With passing redundant laws being a prefered option to something like more police...
Re:A good thing... (Score:5, Interesting)
Erm, I think it will have a VERY noticable effect on the blackmarket in reprogrammed phones. There are businesses that currently operate legitimately whose sole business is chaning the identity of [stolen] phones. The only reason anyone would wish to do this is to sell a stolen phone, there's no other purpose for it. Sure you might want to do this yourself, but why? It's not as though anything spectacular will happen!
Maybe you think anyone should be able to file off vehicle identification serial numbers too, or wire up their house with all the earth wires and live wires reversed?
er no (Score:3, Insightful)
No this is not the case with this law. There are no legit uses for hacking mobile phones. There are a huge number of people who do this (I think there was an article on the bbc website a while back but I am too lazy to look it up for referencing). This should indeed be stopped and it is nice to see a very focused bill instead of something that would do something stupid like outlaw EPROM burners altogether.
Re:er no (Score:2)
already a law in US, sort of (Score:4, Informative)
I don't mean to troll here, but isn't this similar to laws against removing VIN (vehicle id numbers) and serial numbers from high-cost goods in the US?
Of course, if this law extends to prohibit other modification of the phone that interferes with fair use, I suppose that's different....
Its a real problem, but a poor solution (Score:4, Insightful)
The UK telecoms operators have mobilised their SIM management systems to allow them to disable mobile phones according to the ID on the phone; previously only one or two of them did this.
Now saying this; I don't see how this Bill will do anything to stop the situation. The phones are stolen already, and are in the hands of the criminals. No doubt they have a stack of them in a warehousr; anything else just isnt' profitable. Anyone who thinks the piddling little threat of extra jail time that this Bill adds will stop the bad guys from modifying the phones are out of their heads. Do they really believe that the criminals care what this Bill says?
Its nothing but a quick headline grab, something for grining-Blair to point at and say "We're doing something about it, look!" and then allows him to get back to inventing rating schemes for various shitty public services, and cutting funding to the police forces.
The real answer is simply to pay the police more, recruit more, and put them out on the streets where they can stop the phones being stolen in the first place. Like that'll ever happen.
Re:Its a real problem, but a poor solution (Score:2)
And to heck with whoever gets trampled in the process.
Re:Its a real problem, but a poor solution (Score:2)
Re:Its a real problem, but a poor solution (Score:2)
But not as big a problem as has sometimes been claimed. A year ago the papers were running stories on the mystery of where all the stolen mobile phones were going - being exported to India perhaps? But the current theory is that many (maybe most) mobile phones reported stolen have not been stolen at all - their owners are just claiming on insurance and buying newer models.
The Bill intends well, but... (Score:2, Informative)
However, there should be a law in place to prevent phones with an incorrect IMEI number being used on GSM networks.
As has been pointed out, there is no genuine reason, other than research, to want to change the IMEI number of a phone - usually, the reason is to avoid blacklisting by networks such as Orange and T-Mobile (Vodafone and O2 do not operate such a scheme currently.)
If there are problems with people changing the IMEI number of a phone, perhaps the IMEI should be hard-coded into one of the chips in the phone - it would then make it a lot harder to successfully, and transparently, change a phone's IMEI number.
Essentially, what those who are attempting to introduce this law are saying, is that there is a need to do something about people changing IMEI numbers. And this remains the case.
Re:The Bill intends well, but... (Score:2)
Too many laws... (Score:3, Insightful)
SealBeater
Re:Too many laws... (Score:2)
It's obvious if the IMEI clashes with another phone. Also if the IMEI is impossible, never assigned.
IMEI nubmer is essential to reduce GSM theft (Score:4, Insightful)
When your mobile phone gets stolen, all mobile phone operators who are enforce IMEI-based disabling will disallow phone calls. (Not all of them do this...)
This reduces the incentive to steal a mobile phone immensly.
It can have some unpleasant consequences though: some years ago, a batch of Nokia mobile phones was stolen, all of them with the same IMEI number. Those phones eventually ended up in stores, where they were, legally, bought by consumers.
Unavoidably, one of those phone got stolen and that IMEI number got blocked. As a result, thousands of people ended up with a disabled phone. Nokia refused to do anything about it, since they can be hold responsible for phone that were bought through 'grey' channels.
Re:IMEI nubmer is essential to reduce GSM theft (Score:2)
In fact you've even provided an example of where changing the number might have a legitimate use - for those people that bought one of the Nokia phones you mentioned.
So tell me again, what is the point of this bill ?
Government Interference Sucks (Score:2, Interesting)
Hm (Score:2)
Not really a hack, but... (Score:2, Funny)
and if they had their ring set to the max volume, death.
=-Jippy
Not just the IMEI! (Score:2)
As far as I am aware though, this bill also stops you hacking things that there is good cause to. Things like unlocking your phone so that you can use it abroad with other networks.
May be missing something here... (Score:2)
If they're planning on fencing a stolen phone anyway, will one more law stop them? They've already broken one law by stealing the phone.
Stops the fences, not the thief... (Score:2)
The only reason that they steal the phones, is that they can sell them on. If the IMEI number isn't changed, then the networks will block the phone, giving a useless item, and no cash. So they take the phone to the local friendly techie, who, legitimitly, will change the IMEI number.
The law would allow the police to move against the people who facilitate the crime, in an effort to stop it being profitable, rather than directly at the criminals. If there's no profit in the activity, it should just stop.
Whether it will work, remains to be seen.
Re:Stops the fences, not the thief... (Score:2)
It's stolen.
We could as simply change the law to allow anyone to modify the IMEI unless it is tagged stolen. And then only to an AVAILABLE IMEI.
Which, by the way, is virtually impossible to do properly since almost anything could conflict with some others companies number space...
Law (Score:2, Insightful)
Isn't this the purpose of the DMCA? To ensure that if "copyright protection measures" are included in your PC (or other "digital device"), it's illegal to remove them?
The lazyness of the Technology Companies (Score:2)
The lazyness of the Technology Companies amazes me, instead of developing safe protocols avoiding users to do whatever they don't want to, they try to solve this problem by creating laws and acts that legaly prohibit the users to user their equipament the way they want to.
IMHO Tech Co. should be treated just like us, regular citizens that must adapt ourselves to the new technology to keep employed.
It is really sad to see all this "moneyfull" companies doing whatever they want to the people of countries that call themselves democratics.
Something must be done...
Only one point to this (Score:2, Insightful)
The only people who'd want to change the IMEI (that I can think of anyway) would be hackers etc who want to either learn some stuff or develop some stuff. Nothing too harmful there IMHO, and if the phone isn't stolen I can't really see the phone co. saying anything more than "sorry, your warranty's just gone bye-bye" if you do this. Fair enough.
I can see one point to this law though. At the moment, I can take any phone into any phone shop, and have the IMEI changed in 10 minutes, no questions asked. This law will stop this happening. It means theives will have to get the equipment and knowledge to do this themselves. In that sense, it will slow down casual mobile thefts. It'll never stop it, cos there'll always be people who can do it, and shops which will do it under the counter. But hey, it's a start.
Personally, I'm quite happy with my IMEI number, so I'm not overly fussed about not being allowed to change it
Also covers wireless ethernet MACs? (Score:2, Interesting)
Also, I just checked parliament's website and this isn't a bill, it has been passed as an act! Soon to become law no doubt.
"What next - a bill to disallow modyour PC ?" (Score:2)
Yes. It will be the bill that makes it illegal for computer owners to bypass intellectial property protection software on their computer. This includes, but is not limited to, installing Linux.
Big deal. (Score:2)
Making it illegal will _really_ make a difference? (Score:2, Interesting)
Considering this, why doesn't the UK look at the stats and realise that just because its illegal doesn't mean people won't do it. Not to mention that theft of mobile phones is already illegal anyways.
It doesn't matter wether there are legitimate reasons for chaging the IMEI number or not. The fact is that changing it because you have a stolen cell phone is the reason for this bill. It therefore in and of itself is redundant. What a waste of taxpayers money, and another reason why I don't like visiting the UK (number two would be because the law there can strongarm me into giving away keys to any data they wish, and number three because I find the virtual panopticon the UK has become quite distasteful).
Just my 2 cents.
Re:Making it illegal will _really_ make a differen (Score:2)
Re:Making it illegal will _really_ make a differen (Score:2)
imei (Score:2, Insightful)
EVERYONE I know here in Britain who owns a mobile has had one robbed at some point in time. People have been murdered for their mobiles as they're an easy target, especially from children, and the resell value is high. There are some places I wouldn't go with a mobile visible, not that I would go waving it around anyway.
There are some freedoms worth fighting for but - the right to change an IMEI number? Get a grip. I'd prefer the right to walk down the street without getting the mobile robbed.
Oh, and not being able to change the IMEI means the phone can be permanently barred or even tracked. If it's changed you're stuffed.
seany
Re:imei (Score:2)
This would be better as "probable cause" (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't know what you think but (Score:2)
So you wanna hack this damn little thing and get away with it?
This thing is no toy. Billions dollors businesses are driven by this *damn* little thing.
Already illegal in the US (Score:2, Informative)
I've downloaded tools from the internet to remove the service provider locks on phones I've legally bought (these have nothing to do with the IMEI number, they're locks that prevent someone buying a phone with, say, BellSouth DCS, and then using it on a VoiceStream network), and the tools generally have the dodgy "change things like the IMEI and other things that shouldn't be changed" functionality as well as the useful bits. This is not, IMHO, a good thing...
I don't see any reason to oppose IMEI number protection laws, and see every reason to support what the British government are doing, unless service providors start preventing people from using their networks who haven't bought their "official" hardware, but given that no network makes a profit from the sales of hardware, I don't see such a foot-shooting exercise occuring any time soon. If ever.
It's all relative... (Score:2)
When you hear a
Hope this might shed a little light somewhere... (Score:2, Informative)
Check. Your. Links. (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not that hard. The link in the story is to the explanatory notes. The actual bill is here [the-statio...fice.co.uk].
On a topical note, all the griping about "Why shouldn't I be allowed to..." is just slippery slope hysterics.
If you actually want to build a 'phone from components, then you can do whatever the hell you like with it, because you're the "manufacturer". However, if you want to buy a 'phone and then screw around with the identifier on it, you're doing something no different from changing the VIN number on a car. There's only one reason why you'd have to do that: to enable fraud. You can argue "But I own it and I just wanna", but in both cases that's simply an argument that principles are always more important than pragmatics and that nothing should be illegal if there's no direct, immediate victim. The law has to strike a balance between freedom and the probability that an act has a criminal purpose. In this case, it's overwhelmingly likely that an actual crime with an actual victim is involved.
The point of this bill is to enable prosecution of workshops set up to change IMEI's on stolen 'phones. It's a real problem, and it's part of a crime with a real victim, usually on the receiving end of violence. There's actually a very reasonable clause in here that protects equipment that merely could be used to change an IMEI: "The clause makes it clear that the offences are committed only if the person intends to use the equipment or allow it to be used for the purposes of making an unauthorised change to the IMEI number, or knows that the person to whom he supplies it or offers to supply it intends to use it or allow it to be used for that purpose." The prosecution has to show intent, so don't throw a hissy fit just because you've built an IMEI programmer for your self built IMEI 'phone. Not that anyone here has or intends to build such a 'phone.
Still not seeing it? Consider your next car purchase. You inspect the car, note the VIN number, do an HPI check, and it looks clean. Two weeks later, the police turn up and tell you that you're driving a stolen car and you have to return it to the rightful owner. You're completely out of pocket. This happens all the time. Now, how would you feel if you found that the garage that sold you the car had modified the VIN number and documentation, and that this wasn't illegal? And that it wasn't illegal because of the high principled argument that once they'd bought the car, they could do anything they damn well liked to it? Would you be pissed off? I think so. So, do you think that should it be legal to modify VIN numbers? If not, why should it be legal to modify IMEI numbers?
This is a balanced, reasonable, useful bill, and all the shrieking and Chicken Littling doesn't make it otherwise.
Re:What's the legit use of this? (Score:4, Insightful)
There are honest people who just like to tinker.
The problem with tinkerers (Score:3, Insightful)
Speaking as someone who used to work in the engineering department of a telecommunications company...
Many telecomms networks are relatively vulnerable to rogue devices. The companies who run the networks put everything they're going to let on their network through amazingly rigorous testing before it's allowed out into the field, because they are aware of this problem, but there is little else they can do to prevent it that is cost effective. The time it took me to make every possible type of call to every possible combination of other units on the network with a new device (which multiplies up to several thousand call types) and verify that every single one worked correctly is negligible compared to the down-time and loss of customer satisfaction caused when a device goes wrong and starts effectively spamming your network and using up all your bandwidth.
Sometimes, the rogue devices are simply phones that have broken, or a change near a base station that's interfering with things. Other times, it's some smart-ass hobbyist who thought he was being clever, and who takes out a whole region of the network for the morning while an on-call team of engineers sorts out the mess.
Guess how high an opinion I hold of people who like to tinker with publicly accessible services just to know they can? :-)
Re:What's the legit use of this? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:What's the legit use of this? (Score:2)
Re:What's the legit use of this? (Score:3, Insightful)
Same can be said for the phone, as long as you never use the phone on the public airwaves or try to sell it you're fine. So you just need to shield your house and sit in your basement and talk to your self. Nobody will ever care about what you did to your phone.
Re:What's the legit use of this? (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, you do hurt someone, namely the society at large (i.e. taxpayers). The reason the number is there is because it makes it easier for law-enforcement to track the car. It can be used to detect theft, fraud, and several other things. And that saves us (the public) a lot of money.
On the other hand, there's the issue of privacy. We don't want a unique identifiable number on every kind of goods. However, cars do deserve special care, for a number of reasons. First of all, they are pretty expensive, compared to most other things people tend to own, so it's important to track them for that reason. Secondly, they are easy to steal, and easy to transport, so it's more important to be able to identify them than e.g. houses (which can generally be identified by their location). Third, driving a car is not for everybody, it requires a license, for both the driver and the car (a license plate). Having a SSN number for the driver, and a chassis number for the car , helps prevent fraud in this case as well.
It is possible to be for chassis number legislation, but against IMEI number legislation. Cellphones aren't especially expensive, and doesn't require a special license to use (Hell, in Norway where I live, we you can buy both the phone and a phone-card anonymously (pay cash at the dealer, no registration)).
On the other hand, personally I don't see much wrong about making it illegal to change IMEI numbers either. It is (I believe) a real problem, and it is unlikely to make any trouble for most anybody (I can't think of a single reason why you would want to do that, and those I've seen so far in the discussion doesn't seem like something anyone would do). And if you had a legitimate reason, I'm sure you could ask for a permit!
Re:What's the legit use of this? (Score:5, Insightful)
The approach of illegalising things that have a potential "bad" use just because nobody can come straight out with a "good" use will end in disaster.
Defrauding telephone companies is already illegal. If some the telephone companies don't want this heppening then they should put it in their contracts. There is no need for new legislation.
The only reason this is happening IMO is to tie in with the RIP bill amendments that the UK government have already tried to rush through (thankfully, the changed were met with sufficient resistance to delay for a while)
The government wants to be able to track and record everyones movement by their mobile phone. And of course this ability will prevent all future terrorist attacks and rid the country of crime. Everyone will he happy and all will rejoice.
Re:What's the legit use of this? (Score:2)
Defrauding telephone companies is already illegal. If some the telephone companies don't want this heppening then they should put it in their contracts.
That wouldn't help since these are stolen phones, and people who steal phones rarely go to the phone company and sign a contract.
Re:What's the legit use of this? (Score:2)
Eh? What are?
The new legislation applies to all phones, not just stolen ones. And in any case if someone has already broken the law by stealing the phone, what makes you think they won't also break this new law?
Re:What's the legit use of this? (Score:2)
The new legislation applies to all phones, not just stolen ones.
Yes, but the goal of the law is to reduce the number of stolen phones.
And in any case if someone has already broken the law by stealing the phone, what makes you think they won't also break this new law?
Because there won't be that many tools available to allow them to break this new law. They won't be able to take it to a legitimate store to get it changed. Plus, if they get caught, it'll be much easier to prosecute, because you won't have to prove that the phone was stolen, only that the ID was changed, or that the thief possessed the tools to change the ID.
Maybe we should protect the individual's freedom to change the ID, but we're doing so at the expense of making it easier to steal phones and use them.
Re:What's the legit use of this? (Score:3, Informative)
Stealing things is against the law. Handling stolen goods is against the law. Passing off stolen goods as not stolen is against the law. There looks to be plenty of applicable criminal law here.
Indeed the text of the bill specifically states "There will be minimal resource implications for the criminal justice agencies - the police, the Crown Prosecution Service, the courts and the Prison Service - to investigate, enforce, prosecute and process the cases through the courts and to accommodate convicted offenders given a custodial sentence. The number of cases prosecuted under this new offence are likely to be relatively small in number," In which case the whole thing starts to look like a waste of time.
Re:What's the legit use of this? (Score:2)
Stealing things is against the law. Handling stolen goods is against the law. Passing off stolen goods as not stolen is against the law. There looks to be plenty of applicable criminal law here.
It's much easier to prove possession of tools to change the ID than it is to prove that the phone was stolen.
Indeed the text of the bill specifically states "There will be minimal resource implications for the criminal justice agencies - the police, the Crown Prosecution Service, the courts and the Prison Service - to investigate, enforce, prosecute and process the cases through the courts and to accommodate convicted offenders given a custodial sentence. The number of cases prosecuted under this new offence are likely to be relatively small in number," In which case the whole thing starts to look like a waste of time.
Are you saying that the only affect of this law is going to be to allow people to be arrested? Surely there is a deterrant effect, especially in the legitimate business community.
Re:What's the legit use of this? (Score:2)
If you want your government representative to take you seriously next time there's a privacy invading proposal, then please, please do not write, call, fax or email them about this. Save your outrage for laws that cause actual harm.
Re:What's the legit use of this? (Score:2)
Re:future (Score:3, Funny)
If altered MAC addresses are criminalized, only criminals wil have altered MAC addresses.
Re:EMEI can save lives (Score:2)
Usage of a modified phone to steal services should be (and is already) illegal. Making a law against the act of modifying it... what's the point?
Re:Consumer's rights (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Consumer's rights (Score:3, Insightful)
Whatever happened to the idea that when you buy something it's yours to do as you please?
That right doesn't actually exist. For example, I can buy a gun and ammunition, but that doesn't give me the right to fire in any direction that I please. The question is better approached from a perspective of individual freedom versus collective good.
Re:Consumer's rights (Score:3, Insightful)
It is, since the registration of VINs and other vehicle identifying numbers is handled by a government agency. If the bill set up something like the DVLA then the car analogy would hold. Instead the bill hands specific power to the manufactures, private (and foreign owned) businesses. It would be as if car makers were in charge of car registrations...
Re:/. people are paranoid (Score:2, Interesting)
A lot of companies charge extra for 2 phones, and they can't have the same number, etc.. thats what this was perfect for..
But I think now you have more people stealing phones then using this method to make life easier.
Re:/. people are paranoid (Score:2)
My SIM works in any (gsm) phone and my phone works with any SIM. Unless the phone and/or SIM have been locked together by the provider as part of a discount scheme or whatever - thus guaranteeing that people don't take advantage of a cheap phone from provider X without giving X a return on their investment (i.e. the discount they have given you)
It's the general dishonesty of people that has lead providers to do this anyway
In the UK (afaik) pre-pay (pay as you go etc) phone are locked to the SIM the come with and the two only work as a package but usually after a year you can get this lock removed.
Contract phones/SIMS are not locked together - because you have a contract that should give the provider their return.
Now you could whinge and say they are screwing with your freedom...
BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY WHAT THEY ARE SELLING
geddit?
I have two phones and two SIMS (a UK one and an NL one) and the whole lot works interchangably. No IMEI numbers have been fiddled with etc etc and personally speaking if my phone is nicked and the network can disable it, then jolly good. It'll stop the b*stards running a huge bill at my expense.
I don't feel the need to hack the VIN number of my car or the serial numbers of my water/gas/electricity meters.
and I actually like that it's not allowed
I think the IMEI should be hardcoded into the phone (and engraved). Just like a VIN. Phones are expensive and easily stealable so anything that will reduce teh probablilty that it's stolen is fine by me.
hohum
Troc
Re:/. people are paranoid (Score:5, Insightful)
10 years ago would you call someone paranoid if you were told that companies would market products that were implanted into your childrens skin so you could track them.
10 years ago would brand a person paranoid if your were told congress was debating a bill to allow companies to hack private citizens.
10 years ago would you call me paraniod if I told you people would be threatened with criminal penalities for reporting security bugs in software.
Debate, don't just label people.
Re:/. people are paranoid (Score:2)
Re:/. people are paranoid (Score:2)
OK, true. Also irrelevant... like all of your other points, except this one...
The bill is legit
No, it isn't.
It's foolishness... how, exactly does this bill prevent anyone from stealing (and then using) a cell phone?
Do you honestly think that a theif would steal a phone, then say "oh, damn! I can't use it because I'm not allowed to change the ID!"
Stealing the phones is already illegal... all this does is make stealing them even more illegal...
Which is simply ludicrous.
Re:/. people are paranoid (Score:2)
Re:Legitimate reasons? (Score:2)
BRNotably to an independent service engineer... We have independent car mechanics, who may at times need to replace a car part carrying a recorded serial number.
Re:Legitimate reasons? (Score:2)
Period. None.
If a car requires a part be replaced which has a VIN then it can, and is, registered. (My GF had her dash replaced and was given the chance to get a new VIN, or physicaly transfer the VIN from the old dash to the new.)
There really isn't a correlary to a cell phone.
(In the UNLIKELY event the chip with the serial number was damaged I expect it could be replaced and have the old number from the phone encoded.).
Re:Legitimate reasons? (Score:2)
Re:Legitimate reasons? (Score:2)
Re:groan... (Score:2)
When you buy a phone, can you go to a central registry, and find out the complete history of it? Like who owned it, and where they lived? If it's ever been in an accident?
THAT is what separates this from VIN laws.. the VIN is essentially PUBLIC INFORMATION, and it's used to protect consumers from theives..
Since there is no central EMEI database that consumers can access, this law is useless... it doesn't protect consumers, because the consumer can't verify that the number hasn't been changed...
Re:It's about time for another revolution. (Score:2)