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Censorship Your Rights Online

Perens Backs Down from DMCA Violation 404

Posted by michael from the talking-the-talk-and-walking-the-walk dept.
liquidsin writes "According to this article by Dan Gillmor, Bruce Perens has backed out of his plan to demonstrate how to modify a DVD player to break region coding (and openly violate the DMCA as well) due to pressure from his employer, Hewlett Packard. I wish HP had given him their blessing on this, but I guess they have to worry about shareholders first..." See our previous story for Perens' plans.
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Perens Backs Down from DMCA Violation More

Perens Backs Down from DMCA Violation

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  • HOWTO: Civil Disobedience (Score:5, Funny)

    by krog ( 25663 ) on Friday July 26, 2002 @01:28PM (#3959962) Homepage
    so, let me get this straight. he intended to explain DVD region circumvention in order to publicly disobey an authority.... then an authority said "don't do that". so he won't.

    just wanted to grab some headlines, i guess...
    • It just so happens that the authority that told him not too also pays his bills.

      Funny how prison may not seem so bad (espically to those that dont think they will go or have never been) but when you threaten someones livelyhood ideas can change quick.

      Im sure the conversation went something to the effect that if he gives his presentation that he will not work for any major computer company again. In this economy the last thing a tech worker needs is to be black listed.

      Though I wish he would go through with it I can understand his motivations not to. Im sure hes not happy about the whole situation either.
      • I don't see how HP can "blacklist" him. That would point to major collusion among computer manufacturers bordering if not overstepping the bounds of legality altogether.

        However, the discussion probably went more like "We're going to fire you even if you take this on and don't get thrown in jail, because we'd rather not be associated with such things-- it hurts our credibility with Congress and industry groups to have prominent employees flouting the law."

        • Well it would not be something as an official black list but imagine your a manager at a competing company and Prens comes in for a job.

          Any manager would have major reservations about hiring someone who would openly and publicy go aginst his employers wishes to possible deteiment to the employer.

          If he were to go through with it then get hired somewhere else then pull the same kind of thing, then it would not be only him but the higher ups would prob point thier fingers at the guy that hired him as well.

        • Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience (Score:4, Insightful)

          by JabberWokky ( 19442 ) <slashdot.com@timewarp.org> on Friday July 26, 2002 @03:01PM (#3960889) Homepage Journal
          we'd rather not be associated with such things-- it hurts our credibility with Congress and industry groups to have prominent employees flouting the law.

          Which is a perfectly respectable position. Fighting law on moral grounds needs to be done two ways - the disobediants and the inside the system. Otherwise, you have either no visibility or no hope of change no matter how outrageous your acts are. One of the best dual systems in tech is 2600 and the EFF. Outside tech, you have multiple examples of activists and the ACLU.

          As important as the activists might be, every Hoffman needs his Lefcourt. The media makes up the third end of the tripod of change, whether it be big media, or just plain word of mouth.

          If you think the less of Bruce for this, I'm sure he would let you get up on stage and do it yourself. Are you willing to go to jail and spend the next year in court for your convictions?

          --
          Evan

          • If you think the less of Bruce for this, I'm sure he would let you get up on stage and do it yourself. Are you willing to go to jail and spend the next year in court for your convictions?

            Assuming that I could count on getting legal support from the EFF, yes.

            • So talk to them. I would imagine they would support you. Probably not pro bono, but you're not worried about that, I assume.

              Just be aware that just because you have legal support does not mean you will win. You might wind up with $1.2 million dollars worth of debt and be on probation for a few years, ready to be yanked to jail for a minor offense.

              --
              Evan

      • Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience (Score:5, Informative)

        by Bruce Perens ( 3872 ) <bruce@perens.com> on Friday July 26, 2002 @10:54PM (#3962977) Homepage Journal
        There were no blacklist threats. I became convinced that I'd hurt HP's Linux program if I went ahead. My boss was very considerate, he even flew out to give a preamble to my talk explaining HP's position.

        Bruce

    • "so, let me get this straight. he intended to explain DVD region circumvention in order to publicly disobey an authority.... then an authority said "don't do that". so he won't."

      Maybe it's because he respects the authority of his employer Hewlett-Packard and the results of possibly getting fired a bit more strongly than he disrespects the values behind the DMCA.

    • I don't know the details of his relationship with HP but it might be better to say: An authority with whom he has a mutually beneficial relationship based on mutual respect asked him not to put them at risk.

      Since, according to the article, HP is funding his other free software projects this could also be viewed as a request not to bite the hand that feeds him.

      This article also says that HP 'asked him' not to give the presentation. Quite differnt from "don't do that"

    • Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience (Score:4, Funny)

      by Arandir ( 19206 ) on Friday July 26, 2002 @02:01PM (#3960296) Homepage Journal
      Without knowing what HP told him, we'll never know.

      It could have been something as simple as "you know, our legal insurance doesn't cover willful, premeditated, and pre-announced violations of the law. If you get arrested you'll have to pay for your own defense. But don't worry, when you get out in ten years your old job will still be waiting for you..."
    • just wanted to grab some headlines, i guess..

      It does seem like that, doesn't it. I mean, you HAVE to believe someone as savvy as Perens would have thought to bounce this off HP legal first, before making a big, splashy statement ?
      • No. Consulting HP would have involved them. I still think that their best response would have simply have been to disavow the action, as they disavow opinions that I clearly identify as my own and not theirs all of the time. But they felt that they could not decouple the potential for HP to be harmed from my actions. Harming their Linux program would have resulted in a net negative effect, not the positive one I desired. What we got instead was an effective demonstration of DMCA's chilling effect. I'll continue to attack it.

        Thanks

        Bruce

        • So instead go up there with a small tape recorder rigged to throw a puff of smoke and a tape with Carly saying "Should you or any of your team be captured of killed, the board of directors will disavow any knowledge of your actions.".
    • Or maybe he just felt getting HP to suffer for HIS civil disobedience was dishonorable.

    • Re:HOWTO: Civil Disobedience (Score:5, Informative)

      by Bruce Perens ( 3872 ) <bruce@perens.com> on Friday July 26, 2002 @10:49PM (#3962965) Homepage Journal
      Yuk yuk. HP felt that it would not be possible to decouple the company from my actions - and that damage to their Linux program would likely take place if I went ahead with my efforts. That program does nice things for Samba, Debian, LSB, etc. So, I had to prioritize. I made my point against DMCA, as what went down with HP was a pretty good demonstration of its chilling effect on free speech. A better demonstration, indeed, than if I had done my trivial DMCA violation and got away with it. I'll continue to work on this. It would be nice if you would, too.

      Thanks

      Bruce

  • You want HP to do what? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by shlong ( 121504 ) on Friday July 26, 2002 @01:29PM (#3959966) Homepage
    "I wish HP had given him their blessing on this, but I guess they have to worry about shareholders first..."

    Written by someone who does not seem to be employed in the corporate world. How can you possibly expect any company to openly endorse a law-breaking event? Sheesh!
    • Probably the same way that the Government endorses law-breaking events... "You shouldn't do that" *wink wink* *nudge nudge*
    • Good, finally a company doing what is right for the people that OWN the company.
      I guess Enron, Worldcom and a few others should have done that too.
      • Good, finally a company doing what is right for the people that OWN the company. I guess Enron, Worldcom and a few others should have done that too.
        Actually, believing that shareholders "own" the company, and that the most important thing to do is to keep the shareholders happy is precisely what got Enron, Worldcom, Tyco, and others in trouble -- they were so concerned with inflating (artificially) their share prices (to benefit their insider-trading shareholders) that they lost track of what really drives businesses' success or failure: keeping their customers (internal or external) happy. Speculation is precisely that: speculation. It truly doesn't create wealth (in any conventional sense), but it certainly has the potential to destroy it, as we learned when the entire Enron pension fund went belly-up.

        Let's hope that HP has a little more sense than to let shareholders dictate their entire company policy out of their self-interests (what about HP's customers?), whether or not Perens ever goes on stage. Still, I thought it would have been interesting to see.

        Legal issues aside, I'm not sure how Perens' planned demonstration would affect HP customers...
    • I find it odd that HP isn't getting a bigger knock in the slashdot forums for this. Everyone seems so rational and understanding and matter-of-fact. Usually one would expect "OMG! The MAN is keeping us down!!" and such. Is it because they sell Linux? What gives?
    • How can you possibly expect any company to openly endorse a law-breaking event?"

      Gee, because its already happened and is happening. Companies that openly endorse breaking the law:

      Microsoft (monopoly, unfair competition)
      Nike (child-labor in 3rd world countries)
      Enron (corporate fraud, embezzlement, cooked books, insider trading)
      Global Crossings (corporate fraud, embezzlement, cooked books, insider trading)
      Martha Stewart's company (corporate fraud, embezzlement, cooked books, insider trading)

      I can go on.

      • Re:You want HP to do what? (Score:4, Informative)

        by bskin ( 35954 ) <bentomb@g[ ]l.com ['mai' in gap]> on Friday July 26, 2002 @02:36PM (#3960650)
        How can you possibly expect any company to openly endorse a law-breaking event?"

        Gee, because its already happened and is happening. Companies that openly endorse breaking the law:

        Microsoft (monopoly, unfair competition)

        Yes, they spent all the money on their defense because they were openly endorsing that they broke the law.

        Nike (child-labor in 3rd world countries)

        Yes, they love to advertise this fact. (And I'm not sure what they do is against the law, either. It may not be right, but that's not the same thing as illegal.)

        Enron (corporate fraud, embezzlement, cooked books, insider trading)
        Global Crossings (corporate fraud, embezzlement, cooked books, insider trading)

        And that worked out so well for these companies.

        Martha Stewart's company (corporate fraud, embezzlement, cooked books, insider trading)

        You seem to have a good deal of trouble distinguishing between endorsing something openly and doing something illegal. Not to mention confusing individuals within a corporation with the corporation itself.

        The reason there's such a mess in the market right now is because shareholders are not happy with these actions. People broke the law, and the companies and shareholders got fucked. It's quite rare that a public company is going to openly do an illegal action and not only admit to it, but "endorse" it.

        --b.
      • Hold on there slim. Many corporations break the law, but openly endorsing the practice is another matter. Microsoft still claims it hasn't broken any laws (which is the exact opposite of an open endorsement), Enron admits its previous management broke the law and condemns it (again, opposite of open endorsement), Martha Stewart denies she broke the law, etc.

        When corporations break the law, they endorse the practice behind closed doors and only if the practice is profitable. That's very important. HP would not profit by endorsing a violation of the DMCA.

    • Yeah, I guess you're right. We wouldn't want a large corporation to stand up for what's right as opposed to what the U.S. government mandates. If he had intended to give his demonstration in any other country in the world it would have gone unnoticed, but due to corporate interest in the U.S., an overly-broad law was passed that serves no purpose other than to infringe on the rights of consumers (we're not citizens anymore, we're consumers). So, yeah, I would love to see a company like HP stand up for the rights of the people who got them to where they are today. Unfortunately it'll never happen. Oh, and by the way, I am employed in the corporate world, and you missed my point anyways. They could have just as easily stood idly by and watched. I'm quite sure that if I did something illegal on my own time, my corporate masters wouldn't get dragged into court for it. What he does on his own time has nothing to do with his job. All that would be required of HP in court is to say he had the day off.

  • Odd...... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Tall Rob Mc ( 579885 )
    I'm not afraid of jail... But I can't stand the thought of getting fired!

    • Re:Odd...... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by garett_spencley ( 193892 ) on Friday July 26, 2002 @01:36PM (#3960037) Journal
      Did you ever think that maybe he cares about HP and their image?

      Maybe it's not the thought of getting fired but since HP raised concerns that his demonstration could possibly harm their image he agreed and decided to respect their wishes on their behalf.

      After all, AFAIK he is getting paid to help OSS projects. That's pretty cool for a large corporation to be doing and so if I were in his position I would not want to do anything to jeopordize that relationship either.

      I personally have no problems hurting myself, but I go out of my way to avoid hurting other people whenever I can.

      --
      Garett
      • Thank you, garett, for your mindopening and insightful comment.

        I feel strangely guilty because I didn't think of this prior to reading your comment. I have much respect for Bruce Perens and his work, yet I simply labelled him as a *sellout* after reading the Slashdot story.

      • Re:Odd...... (Score:2, Insightful)

        by lhand ( 30548 )
        Guys, read the linked article. It's only a couple of paragraphs.

        Bruce is backing down because HP thinks the recording industry will come after HP's deep pockets, not because it's illegal.

        Bruce is willing to get in trouble, but doesn't want to expose HP to a *major* suit. Sure, it would be great if HP was willing to go for it, but I understand Bruce's decision to not force it on them.
        • Bruce is backing down because HP thinks the recording industry will come after HP's deep pockets, not because it's illegal.

          Couldn't they have found a way for Perens to do his stuff off the payroll?

          I certainly hope it wasn't about image - because I, and I suspect most other techies, don't much appreciate a company that wants to sell us hardware, but doesn't care about our right to then use that hardware to read disks that were LEGALLY PURCHASED in other countries.

      • Did you ever think that maybe he cares about HP and their image?

        Caring about an inanimate object? What sense does that make? HP's shareholders don't give a shit about you, you shouldn't give a shit about them.

        The only reason to give in to HP is because it's in your own rational self-interest, not because you "care about their image".

  • I understand (Score:3, Insightful)

    by totallygeek ( 263191 ) <sellis@totallygeek.com> on Friday July 26, 2002 @01:31PM (#3959979) Homepage
    I think it is well within HP's rights to require Perens to back down from this challenge of the law. Company image is big issue, and not just to publicly-traded companies. While Perens' idea is noble, he is given a livelyhood by Hewlett Packard, and he needs to do his best to keep his employer happy as well as voice his opinions. Challenging the law is only half the issue. He is doing it on HP's soil.

    • Even if he wasn't doing it on HP's soil, he would be making himself a criminal. HP can fire him for being a criminal, I believe.

    • Company image is big issue, and not just to publicly-traded companies.

      And HP's image just plummeted in my eyes. If they won't support our rights to use our own hardware to play disks we purchased, I'm going to be reluctant to buy hardware from them in the future.

  • some useful links for the people still without (Score:5, Informative)

    by unformed ( 225214 ) on Friday July 26, 2002 @01:31PM (#3959983)
    ... region-free decoders

    DVD-ROM status (what's region-hackable, what's not [club-internet.fr]
    The firmware page [club-internet.fr]

    Also libdvdnav and libdvdread both decrypt region-encoded dvds. Xine, MPlayer, and Ogle (among others) support those libraries for viewing DVDs. Personally, I prefer Ogle and Xine (with the Sinek UI) the best, both support DVD menus and navigation. Ogle doesn't support all of the sound formats; however, it has a nicer interface.

    • ...that's Regional Code Enhancing [zonefreedvd.com]. Supposedly it will prevent all future N.American DVDs from being playable on region-free DVD players. I'm disappointed, if not actually surprised.

      Anyone know more about this technology? This FAQ was the first I'd heard of it.
      • My region-free player plays RCE disks just fine..as should any good region-free player. If a disc doesn't like being told "no region" you just set a region on the player. Mine is a 2 key combo on the remote.

        BTW, anyone looking for a good DVD that does SVCD, MP3, region-free, Progressive, and excellent PAL to NTSC conversion should check out the Malata DVP-520.
      • There are region-free players that can defeat RCE. I own one, the Malata 996, which is a great machine. It's been superceded by the Malata 520 (here [220-electronics.com] or here [lfvw.com]). Both do PAL-->NTSC conversion on the fly, too. There is a forum about Malata DVD players here [nerd-out.com].

        Someday, region coding will die. Really. In the meantime, I ignore it. Whenever a title gets released everywhere but here in the USA (Simpsons season 2, Eraserhead, etc.), I just order from amazon.co.uk.
    • Also http://wwww.vcdhelp.com very good links and info.

  • I spit (Score:2, Funny)

    by ReidMaynard ( 161608 )
    on my HP computer

    DOH!

  • In other news... (Score:5, Funny)

    by warmcat ( 3545 ) on Friday July 26, 2002 @01:32PM (#3959994)
    Mr Perens now able to walk without wheelbarrow; confirms HP has his nuts in a very large jar.

  • Mass disobedience (Score:5, Interesting)

    by crosbie ( 446285 ) <crosbie@digitalproductions.co.uk> on Friday July 26, 2002 @01:32PM (#3959997) Homepage
    What would be far more effective and less risky would be for Bruce to figure out a nice cute way to get each member of the audience to violate the DMCA.
    • We actually only had 45 minutes for the talk, and after Martin's preamble to my speech, it was more like 30. So, I did the talk, quickly, without additional attempts to demonstrate. There will be other opportunities for that. My demonstration was intended to show how the common person could be a DMCA-violator, not how a room-full of geeks and nerds could do it deliberately. We'll figure out another way to make that point.

      Bruce

  • IANAL but... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Zaphod B ( 94313 ) on Friday July 26, 2002 @01:33PM (#3960009) Journal
    It seems to me that I recall from the few law courses I took that when an employee breaks a law during the faithful performance of his duties, his employer is equally culpable and thus open to criminal liability.

    Now, whether he was going to be doing this in the faithful performance of his duties is a matter of some debate, but I can fully understand HP's nervousness in this matter.

    A better (and more efficient if less symbolic) thing to do would be for Perens to convince HP to use their [considerable] legislative influence to get the DMCA modified. Companies lobbying against laws with which they disagree is a hallmark of the American corporate world.
    • Considering that the whole focus of his presentation is to be the horrors of the DMCA, I'd doubt that he's doing this as a work-related duty. I'd think HP would be just as upset about him bad mouthing the law as they would be about him breaking it, if he were doing this as a representative of theirs. And if he's not doing it as official HP business, then whatever he does, he does on his own time. If my employers ever start telling me what I can and cannot do on my own time, it's time to find a new job.

  • DMCA inhibits free speech again (Score:5, Insightful)

    by alienmole ( 15522 ) on Friday July 26, 2002 @01:33PM (#3960010)
    This is an excellent example of how the DMCA can have a chilling effect on free speech without even having to be tested in court. People often focus on the law itself as the threat, but as much of a threat can be how companies and individuals behave in response to the law - self-policing can sometimes be the worst kind.
    • The problem here, as has been meentionned in other posts, is that Perens is at this conference as a representative of HP. As such, HP could be held liable for whatever "illegal" acts he does at this conference.

      It's not a function of the DMCA, it is the way general liability is construed to function by the courts in the USA. Otherwise put, you'll be hard pressed to find *any* company terribly eager to sponsor you directly or indirectly for your civil disobedience. When you're on somebody else's coin, they have a big say on what you do.
  • Like it's really going to make a difference? Hell if he broke the DMCA I'd buy stock just in spite of stupid laws.
  • They don't have to. Corporations like HPQ will do a fine job of abridging freedom of speech without any help from the government.

  • Too bad (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Alizarin Erythrosin ( 457981 ) on Friday July 26, 2002 @01:36PM (#3960039)
    That's too bad. I was hoping that his demonstration would show the DVD industry how lame their little region scheme is, and how easy(?) it is to circumvent. If they want to continue using the region system they should consider making some DVDs region free, like the DVDs mentioned in the original article (Gladiator was one of them I believe) and other popular ones.

  • Frankly, I can't see the point of just breaking the law in public. In my opinion, a better course of action would be to set up the conditions for a test case that could be won in the courts. That will likely require some public lawbreaking, but will also require there be something about the lawbreaking that demonstrates how the law in question isn't reasonable. Simply showing how easy it is to violate said law isn't going to do that.
    • In order for there to be a test case, the law has to be broken.
    • Not only does it seem like a poor demonstration, but I find it a little disturbing so many people seem to think it's a good idea. Let's step back and not use Bruce's name or refence the DMCA law he was planning to violate. Let's just say so-and-so was planning to break the law in public. Is that really a good thing? Is that really something you want to cheer for? It certainly seems like misdirected frustration.

      *shrug* maybe it's just me :)
      • In the american legal system, the courts really, really dislike to rule on theoretical cases. It would be very unlikely that any federal court would take a case initiated by Perens of "if I do such and so, is it illegal or constitutionally protected." There are three good reasons for this:
        1) Real cases often hinge on the particular facts more than Constitutional interpretation.
        2) Taking a non-case makes more work for the judges.
        3) There is some history of the Supreme Court stepping beyond the actual facts of a case and trying to express how the principles would apply in other cases. Many of these rulings are now considered aberrant and deplorable (Dredd Scott, e.g.).

        And a federal court has already refused to consider one not entirely theoretical case: Dr. Felten, who cancelled a presentation because of a threatening letter from one of the **AA's. By the time he got this into court, the conference was already over, and the **AA was saying they would never have a legitimate researcher prosecuted for presenting his research results - they'd already got what they wanted, but because there was no _current_ case, the court wouldn't look at it.

        So, to actually get the DMCA in court, you've got to have a case of someone being prosecuted for an actual violation. If Perens demo & lecture would be a violation, and if the authorities weren't smart enough to ignore it, then this would be the right test case; Perens was merely presenting the results of research into a technical security measure to a conference of researchers. It's a perfect 1st amendment case.

        Furthermore, the circumvention Perens proposed is NOT of copy protection, but simply of a dubious technical scheme to restrict the trade of DVD's across borders, which is routinely and legally circumvented in many other nations. Free-trade conservatives ought to dislike region-coding (or at least government action to ban circumventing it) as a restriction on free trade. Liberal judges ought to hate it as another way for big business to screw the consumer.

  • on of the best things (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Satai ( 111172 ) on Friday July 26, 2002 @01:37PM (#3960051)
    One of the best things about Bruce Perens is that he's so active in the actual community as well as the upper-echelons of aforementioned community - he's so active here, on the Slashdot forums, lending a great dialogue to any article about him.
  • ... is the backing of a company big enough to handle the potential legal expense, and not afraid of (or already aligned with) the media giants. They should be on at least speaking terms with the open source community, too.

    Apple springs to mind. Anybody else?
  • Maybe if Mr.Perens ideas weren't broadcast by the media (slashdot included) it would of gone off better without a hitch.

    This was a case were we are better off talking about it AFTERWARD instead of beforehand, when things can prevent it.

    BTW - Thinking HP will openly embrace his actions is ignorant. No complete business is going to endorse blatant (advertised) illegal activities, regardless of how the executives feel.

  • His doctor states... (Score:3, Funny)

    by KupekKupoppo ( 266229 ) on Friday July 26, 2002 @01:49PM (#3960169)
    Perens' doctor has stated that the swelling of Bruce's testes (noted in nearly every comment of the prior article) has suddenly gone down.
  • The last thing that the entertainment cartel wants to do is to force a large, respectable corporation with deep pockets into a position of having to defend itself against a DCMA violation. A well-funded legal effort by a respectable defendant could possibly result in the DCMA being found unconstitutional. The entertainment cartel will continue to hand-pick its legal challenges to be sure they do not take on any they might lose.

  • Similar Tactic to Felton's (Score:3, Interesting)

    by cbowland ( 205263 ) on Friday July 26, 2002 @02:00PM (#3960291)
    Mr. Perens might be trying a similar tactic to Professor Felton. As you recall, Felton essentially tricked the evil doers into sending him a threatening letter which he then tried (unsuccessfully) to use as a basis of prior restraint.

    Looks like Mr. Perens might be able to make a better case for prior restraint now.

    Or maybe he caved, as most of us do that have to live and work in the real world.

  • Region free is standard in Denmark. (Score:3, Informative)

    by martinm_76 ( 22905 ) on Friday July 26, 2002 @02:08PM (#3960353) Homepage
    I haven't seen anyone market a non region-free DVD player in Denmark in at least 2 years now, so in the current situation it would seem to be very good to live outside of America.
    Region-free DVD drives is another matter, though. For some reason they do not seem to be so common.
    As far as I know, though, no law here says anything about you not being allowed to *make* it region free.

    Honestly, I wish the DVD consortium would just let the regions slide. What's so bad about people in region 2 playing region 1 DVDs? Or any other region for that matter. Most people in Europe bye the Region 2 DVDs anyway, but it seems ludicrus to expect people to only be able to view other regions than their own a set number of times before it's all over.
    I hope they realize at some point that all they gain is bad publicity and most likely very little extra capital.
    Most of us in Europe like titles subtitled in our own language, which is doubtfull would be on the DVD region 1 media, unless they finally decided to make one big region 0 disc...
    • Funny side of the DVD regions is that they were created to protect interests of US studios. Therefore you should not be able to buy a region one DVD and play it in, let's say, Europe (region two), before they decide to sell it on european market, or even before it hits cinemas. But as far as I know no other country but US makes restrictions on region-free DVD players.

      So, if you live in US you do not need to break the DMCA, since you get your DVDs before others and cheaper, and in Europe you do not have DMCA so you can break it as much as you want with region free player.

      There must be something wrong with concept of DVD regions?

  • Orwell 2084? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by hackus ( 159037 ) on Friday July 26, 2002 @02:12PM (#3960386) Homepage
    I think, the result from this could be quite serious and doesn't change an otherwise very scary future picture of Internet use in the US.

    The entire fiasco sets a very bad precedent for DMCA observance.

    First of all, Mr. Perens I don't believe acted intelligently, in behalf of the Open Source community, by legally attempting to challenge the law while being employed by someone who has no choice but to observe it.

    I would have thought that would have been common sense, readily realized by Mr. Perens.

    Secondly, this could do some serious damage to the credibility of what Open System Engineering/Source attempts to do:

    That is to free the market place from corporations attempting to garner complete control over every single piece of equipment, professional occupation, or ideas that are produced using a computer, and making it legal (Required by law actually) to tax it at ANY price they see fit.

    If you don't pay that price you can't:

    1) Create Software of any kind.
    2) Own a Computer of any kind.
    3) Access any sort of information of any kind.
    4) Create ideas using digital technoloy of any kind.

    Unless...you pay said corporation a fixed sum, or give up rights to everything you create to said corporation and ONLY use thier products to do so.

    Congress has legislated a DMCA that will destroy this countries IT economy as it tries to compete under those conditions with countries that do not recognize such draconian practices on its populace.

    It will be virtually impossible, for the US to compete in the world economy if patent laws, DMCA laws are allowed to stay in place. How can you produce computers for example when half the cost of the computer is locked in a monopoly market driven software industry in the USA, and hope to undercut local distributors as such in China for example, who are building thier own OS's or preloading Linux on the same computers for 50% less?

    All of this of course is a monpoly that has been legislated by a collusion between industry and government that is making the IT industry in this country extremely ill, running amock with corruption, bad products, and close to ZERO innovation now for the past 4 years.

    Hang on to your Devils and Penguins boys in girls because very very soon, THE MAN will be knocking at your door asking why you are web serfing on a UNAUTHORIZED piece of STATE equipment NOT endorsed by COMPANY X who RUNS THE INTERNET.

    Don't you KNOW SILLY MAN, we need to control what you information you access, use and pay for because you MIGHT BE A TERRORIST.

    Hack
  • In other news today, the Bush administration finally got the bill it has been seeking. Under current law, any contributor (as long as they are incorporated) of $200,000 or more to a government leader such as a Senator or President may get unconditional control of the U.S. military for 3 months. Supreme Commander, the High and Holy Hollings has announced that Commander Gates has paid for a millennia of U.S. Military control with Peter Pan and Mickey Mouse as Generals. Gates gave the honorary title to S.C.H.H. Hollings for his efforts in passing a bill that would allow MicroDisney to raise and use an elite paramilitary unit to raid and kill evil software/IP pirates with no fear of prosecution or oversight. Not surprisingly, there was little upheaval to this bill. One lady was quoted as saying, "Well, I don't pirate." The software pirates themselves had little comment considering that they were dead.

    Bush, after receiving his check quickly cashed it only to find that there were insufficient funds for payment and realized that the check was actually made in an EZ-Bake oven. Bush, upon complaining to the Supreme Court was found to be a software pirate and killed. The Supreme Court, coincidentally, was also found to be software pirates and killed also.

    Under new leadership the United States of America is now called the U.S.A. Inc. and Subsidiaries.

    In unrelated news, a software glitch at Offutt Air Force Base and Space Command launch a small nuclear attack on China killing 900 million and wounding 150 million more. Gates responded with the offhand remark, "shit happens, don't pirate."
  • Isn't region coding some sort of geographical discrimination?

    -S
  • I pretty much expected some lawyer at MPAA/DVDCCA to call HP's legal department and warn them that an employee might be exposing them to liability. Whether there really is any liability or not, it's easiest for the company to put the brakes on.
    And that's probably what happened.
    Similarly, Cadence contractor James Hanna was fired [theworkcircuit.com] for involvement in pro-Palestinian activism.
  • In the original story yesterday, Bruce posted at least 3 comments (that were all modded up to 5 almost instantly). Where is Bruce today?

    You said you knew some good lawyers, Bruce. Did they tell you something new? Did /. ruin the party for you? What happened?
  • Time to burn off some karma stating the obvious:
    HP has been such a conservative company, and getting more so, I'm hardly suprised.

    And the cynical BOFH type I'm becoming says think about the following:

    Carley could not sell the Compaq merger to HP (had to force it thru).

    Bruce could not sell a DMCA violation to HP. (hey, neither could 2600 to a biased MPAA judge)

    HP can't sell printers to Dell anymore (or something to that effect).

    Bruce has the balls to do it, but HP doesn't have the guts to back him on this one, because, if they did, they'd do what Gateway did to the RIAA, because all the things that made HP great are gone or slipping away.
    Think about it: HP was great because the founders were *ENGINEERS*, much like Appl*B**'s is run by chefs. Now HP is run by..., well,... PHB's.

  • HP did what it had to do... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Etcetera ( 14711 ) on Friday July 26, 2002 @02:38PM (#3960675) Homepage
    As much as I dislike HP (and risk losing mod points), I have to say that I understand their position.

    Our legal system is so screwed up that there's a distinct possibility that **AA might be able to find HP liable in some way for Perens' actions. Even if they don't, it's worth it to the **AA to try.

    HP, understandably, would prefer not to have to spend untold millions of dollars defending itself against this.

    While I, too, wish HP was willing to risk the liability for the chance to stand up for what's Right, I understand their position. And I understand that Perens understands their position. And so I understand why Perens is backing out. I don't blame him, and I full believe that he intended to go through with it. But there's no reason/point/honor in exposing your employer to multi=-million dollar liability (or multi-million dollar legal bills) unless the entire company is will to stand behind his actions.

    Maybe next time..

  • WHY should DMCA protect region coding at all? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Wolfier ( 94144 ) on Friday July 26, 2002 @02:44PM (#3960735)
    I thought a copyright act should only protect copyright, or in the case of DMCA, methods to protect copyright!!

    Region coding has nothing to do with "copyright" at all, just a lame money grabbing scheme!! Why should the DMCA protect it?

    The word in the law is "protect access to copyrighted works".

    What "Access"? So if a publisher put glues on the CD cover so it sticks to your hand, is washing the glue off and throwing it away a circumvention and thus breaks the law?

    This "Access" thing has to be more unambigously defined! It should REALLY be changed to "protect reproduction access to copyrighted works"!! What's so hard to understand? Let's make a case to change the word in the law!

  • Or maybe... (Score:4, Funny)

    by Alsee ( 515537 ) on Friday July 26, 2002 @02:45PM (#3960745) Homepage
    XXAA vs Hewlett Packard the Honorable Judge Halfaclu presiding

    Judge Halfaclu: Call your first witness.
    Lawyer: I call Bruce Perens. Mr. Perens, did you have a discussion with Hewlett Packard regarding a possible DMCA violation?
    Bruce Perens: Yes. They told me not to do it.
    Lawyer: And what did you say?
    Bruce Perens: I said "OK", I won't do it.
    Lawyer: And then what happened?
    Bruce Perens: I changed my mind and did it anyway.
    Lawyer: Against Hewlett Packard's specific request?
    Bruce Perens: Yes.
    Lawyer: So Hewlett Packard didn't know?
    Bruce Perens: No.
    Lawyer: And even if they had known, was there any way they could have prevented it?
    Bruce Perens: "Any way"? Ummm, well I guess they could have hit me with a baseball bat and locked me in a dungeon.
    (laughter)
    Lawyer: I mean was there any legal way they could have prevented it?
    Bruce Perens: Umm, none that I know of... but, ahhh, I am not a laywer. Some of my friends are laywers though.
    Lawyer: Thank you. No further questions
    Judge Halfaclu: CASE DISSMISSED AGAINST HEWLETT PACKARD. Prosecution may procede against the defendant Bruce Perens.

    -

  • Hollywood is winning, folks. You are losing. And you'd better start caring.

    Losing what? The ability to play DVDs from another country? It seems to me that the only one losing anything is Hollywood, since I won't buy DVDs which I can't play. Not that it would be a problem if I really needed to play them anyway. I have DeCSS.

  • Why should he bother (Score:3, Informative)

    by imnoteddy ( 568836 ) on Friday July 26, 2002 @03:39PM (#3961230)
    ... and why should the audience listen when a simple Google search [google.com] finds the info for you?

    IANA DMCA violater but did you know that many DVD players have their firmware in FLASH ROMs? And that if you insert a CD into one of these with files named and formatted properly the FLASH will automagically update? This must very convenient for the manufacturer if a firmware bug is found.

    I certainly can't imagine that anyone could think of another use for this feature. :)

  • Mr Perens, I have a solution for you. (Score:4, Funny)

    by A_Non_Moose ( 413034 ) on Friday July 26, 2002 @06:38PM (#3962177) Homepage Journal
    Give your presentation as per advised by your employer, which is the smart thing to do.

    Also, make your original presentation available on a CD-rom and attach a EULA to it reading:

    "By agreeing to this EULA you will not hold HP, Bruce Perens or any attendees of this conference, personally, legally, ethically, morally, physically, mentally, emotionally or any other *lly for that matter.
    If you are a member of the RIAA, MPAA, ABA, law enforcement (genus homo sapien or canine), political or judicial in nature, you hereby agree to stop breeding, kill any offspring and other kin you may have and then stop breathing should you have any need, want, desire, thought, inkling or idea to do or be the initiator, participant, party to or of any kind of lawsuit, harassment, annoyance or flatulance against Bruce Perens and HP.
    Failure to comply with the above and you will pay the legal fees of the prosecution, defense, judge, jury, state in which you file, donate to the EFF no less than the senator from Disney has been bribed...err...funded per day and sing "I'm a Lumberjack" every hour until the trial (which should not happen in the first place, but you had to be a dick about it) proceedes and co-council will have to say 'bork, bork, bork' every 20th word".

    Not only will you challenge the BS that is the DMCA but the EULA as well...because if the above EULA is valid and legally binding, well, somebody needs to lay off the crackpipe, get a sense of humor and be beaten by a clue stick before they can even approach the DMCA violation that they agreed to not to do anything about....and you just know it'll have to be submitted in original form, heh!!

    Feel free to add more asinine stuff and legalese up the arse with HP's lawyers... and find one with a mean streak who enjoys fscking with other lawyers.

    Now, if you will excuse me, I'm going to rip AC/DC's song "Big Balls" to MP3....JUST BECAUSE I CAN.....muaahahahahahahaha.

    .

  • Why I stopped bothering. (Serious.) (Score:5, Interesting)

    by supabeast! ( 84658 ) on Friday July 26, 2002 @11:23PM (#3963072)
    Wussy pansy crap like this is why I gave up on political action with geeks.

    Geeks are wimps. Geeks are happy to complain and bitch online, even writing a paper letter on occasion . But face a geek with some serious attempt to go against the grain, and he collapses.

    Pressure from society, government, and employers scares the living shit out of geeks. I was laid off about a year ago, and found a new job immediately, but took a month off. I spent the first two weeks doing nothing but trying to motivate people into some poltical work with UCITA and the DMCA. The most I got out of it was a couple guys agreeing to write letters if I brought pens, paper, and envelopes to a LUG meeting because they couldn't be bothered to do it themselves.

    We need an event to motivate geeks. Perens has decided not to be the one who does it, although one person being arrested probably won't do much, the last few times it happened people made phone calls, wrote letters, and the the EFF handled the legal stuff. We need something bigger. We need a room full of geeks, or someone like Linus tossed in jail for a very stupid reason. Until that happens, I'll just keep watching like everyone else.

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