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Europol Describes Data Retention Desires 135
freakyboff writes "Found this on cryptome.org - It's a confidential document from Europol, basically a wish list of all data that they would like people to keep. Many things that violate peoples privacy are in the minimum requirements, such as caller line identification and assigned IP for dial-up Internet access; e-mail and ftp server logs; and companies running web servers should keep information on what information users put on their servers." Statewatch is a good source for more information. I find it odd that Europe is moving from a position of protecting a great deal of data with fairly strong laws to requiring that telecommunications companies store data on their customers for as long as seven years so that law enforcement can go data-mining - skipping the intermediate step of making it optional.
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Re:It's europe, for god sake (Score:1)
Re:When will... (Score:1)
Re:It's europe, for god sake (Score:2, Interesting)
We've had bombs placed in the centers of our cities, people being shot, mugged, raped and generally fucked over so whats wrong with putting up the cameras if they help prevent it, or at least track down the guilty person afterwards.
Why should I care if the police/govt/anyone watches me walk down the main street of town or sitting on a bus? I never understood the argument that they're invading our privacy by putting camera's in public places.
Re:It's europe, for god sake (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:It's europe, for god sake (Score:1)
iirc neither in 1984 nor in brave new world were the oppressive regimes brought on as a "gradually eroding change", instead they were created fairly suddenly and violently by wars (I think, don't have either book to hand now) so it's not a great example.
Re:all bullshit conspiracies. (Score:1)
I just can't see any logical arguments here except conspiracy stories. It's a millions miles difference the government putting cameras in public places where there is already no privacy to them putting cameras in our houses.
Why the hell do you all think because we let cameras in public we would then roll straight over and let them into our homes?
By these paranoid arguments we should get rid of all weapons/army/police/cars/planes/tv/radio/technolo
Re:It's europe, for god sake (Score:2)
People are shot, raped, beat up, get drunk, get high, write anti-government essays, organize terrorist activities, and plan revolutions all from their own private homes! So what's wrong with putting up the cameras in everyone's house, if it helps prevent it, or at least track down the guilty person afterwards?
Re:It's europe, for god sake (Score:1)
If any party here tried to put cameras in peoples houses they would be thrown out at the next election (or probably before). If any military government took over for whatever reason (e.g. a 1984 style ww3) and decided to put CCTV everywhere, they could do it anyway regardless of whether a public system was already in place.
I understand your arguments, I just can't see the British public or government ever buying into it. Maybe it's me being shortsighted but after hearing all the dodgy shit some politicians get up to I hardly think they're going to want cameras watching them all the time either.
Re:It's europe, for god sake (Score:2)
Cheers,
-b
Cost? (Score:1)
Re:Cost? (Score:1)
Re:Cost? (Score:2)
Do you really want to be left alone in a gene pool filled with the same intelligent, elitist, passionate genes that you have? Stop assuming they'd all share your opinions and start thinking about having to face off against those with skills equivilent to yours (whatever those may be.)
Re:Cost? (Score:3, Interesting)
In your case yes, but consider for a moment the cost of no security whatsoever on the blanks. Want a blank license, just walk in and take as many as you want, no tracking, no chance of getting punished. Not you do you take 15 (presume that you need them for something), but everyone else does too. Now it isn't 15 blanks, it is 2,000 at a total cost of 1784 dollars. Starting to get meaningfull already. (note, the number 2000 was pulled out of the air). Now multiply that out by a few years...
Security and prevention always comes at a cost. Insurance companys can draw fancy curves and graphs to show where your cost for secuiry (including punishing offenders, and insurance) is the least compared to your potential losses. Perhaps it isn't worth the goverment's time to do anything about the theif of blanks, perhaps it is. (I don't know how to do that analysis) At some point though you have something that costs more then it looks like it should because you can't account for the losses spending that much prevents.
Re:Cost? (Score:2, Offtopic)
Re:Cost? (Score:1)
personally, i like graffiti. i have 4 murals in my apartment, painted by local kids. i gave them the whole day to work and they did a great job. most people think of tags when they think graffiti -- tags are the knee-jerk response to a society who won't let artists finish.
Re:Cost? (Score:1, Offtopic)
Re:Cost? (Score:1, Insightful)
ISP's already know what number you dialed into, what number you're calling from, date, time, IP, duration of the session.
Even with this information, it is next to impossible to track someone down using this information. Even with a court order.
I've heard of some ISP's that won't allow your call to complete unless you un-block your number.
Re:1984 (Score:1)
Re:Ha. Ha. Ha. (Score:1)
Is retention the problem? Or over-collection? (Score:1)
Re:Most likely do to the War On Terror (Score:2, Informative)
It seems to me that it's more likely to be a side effect of the US War On Terror that is driving them to keep better log info.
I doubt the EU is just waiting for the US to tell them what to do all the time. It's probably just the normal disconnect between the people whose job it is to investigate things and other elements of the gov't. The law enforcement elements will obviously focus on the benefits of collecting and keeping data that will make it easier for them to investigate things (especially in internal documents, like this one). It is to be hoped that their wish list, once offered, will be turned back due to privacy concerns. I guess what I am saying is that the bigger story will be the larger EU reaction to this, not the proposal itself.
You're right - it's the natural European impulse (Score:1)
A ruse (Score:3, Informative)
George Bush, President of the USA, sent this demand -- among many others -- to the EU on October 16, 2001:
Re:A ruse (Score:2)
Huh? How about some evidence for this? Do you think that the Kyoto protocols are going to be mandated in the US because they've been accepted in Europe? Ditto for socialized medicine? Mandated shorter work weeks? The Euro?
Opening for a proxy service, maybe? (Score:3, Interesting)
I wonder if a company in a place where laws like this don't exist (is Sealand still around?) could set up a proxy service provider, so all your traffic (or at least any traffic you don't want somebody spying on, like email, some web traffic) would be routed securely through them, so your local ISP wouldn't have anything but encrypted packets to monitor. Then they wouldn't have anything of consequence to share when the cops come knocking. I'd pay for such a service, would you?
Re:Opening for a proxy service, maybe? (Score:1)
Re:Opening for a proxy service, maybe? (Score:1)
That does no good at all. We are talking about ISPs retaining mail headers; similar to the telco keeping records of numbers dialled, so the cops can try to identify contacts. What you need is a secure anonymizing service in a different jurisdiction.
Not that encrypting your mail isn't a good idea too - but this legislation isn't about wiretaps.
So??? (Score:1)
- Every EU citizen submitting a full report each month about all Internet activity they had that month;
- Each of those reports to be compared against the actual internet usage, by a bunch of underpaid exploited 3rd world country workers
- Any activity unaccounted-for punished by a slap in the face with a largeish wet fish.
When this highly secret document makes it into a proposal for EU legislation, then I'll start to petition against the proposal. Gah... If i had to worry about every little paper that fell off some clerk's desk...
Re:So??? (Score:1)
***twiztidlojik slaps JaredOfEuropa around with a large trout!
It's a large trout. Go bone up on your mIRC before you post something like that again =D
Just horrific.... (Score:2, Informative)
1. Network Access Systems - Date and time of connection of client to server - User-id and password - Assigned IP address NAS Network attached storage IP address - Number of bytes transmitted and received - Call Line Identification (CLI) - User's credit card number / bank account for the subscription payment
2. Email servers - Date and time of connection of client to server - IP address of sending computer
- Message ID (msgid) - Sender (login@domain)
- Receiver (login@domain) - In some cases identifying information of email retrieved
3. File upload and download servers - Date and time of connection of client to server - P source address - User-id and password - Path and filename of data object uploaded or downloaded
4. Web servers - Date and time of connection of client to server - IP source address - Operation (i.e. GET command) - Path of operation (to retrieve html page or image file) - Those companies which are offering their servers to accommodate web pages should retain details of the users who inserts these web pages (date, time, IP, User ID, etc.) - "Last visited page" - Response codes
5. Usenet - Date and time of connection of client to server - Protocol process ID (nnrpd[NNN...N]) - Hostname (DNS name of assigned dynamic IP address)
- Basic client activity (no content) - Posted message ID
6. Internet Relay Chat - Date and time of connection of client to server - Duration of session - Nickname used during IRC connection - Hostname and/or IP address
7. Data that must be retained by telephone companies for fixed numbers' users: - Called number even if the call was not successful - Calling number even if the call was not successful
- Date and time of the start and the end of the communication - Type of communication (incoming, outgoing, link through, conference) - In case of conference calls or call to link through services, all intermediate numbers - Information both on the subscriber and on the user (name, date of birth, address) - Address where the bill is sent - Both dates (starting and ending) from when the subscription has been signed and dismissed - Type of connection the user has (normal, ISDN, ADSL, etc., and whether it is for in-out calls or for incoming only) - The forwarded called number - The time span of the call - Bank account number/other means of payment - For a better investigative purpose Telcos should be able to know the nature of the telecommunication: voice/modem/fax etc.
8. Data that must be retained by telephone companies for mobile / satellite numbers' users:- Called number even if the call was not successful- Calling number even if the call was not successful - Date and time of the start and the end of the communication - Type of communication (incoming, outgoing, link through, conference) - For conference calls or call to link through services, all intermediate numbers - Information both on the subscriber and on the user (name, date of birth, address) - IMSI and IMEI numbers - Address where the bill is sent - Both dates (starting and ending) from when the subscription has been signed and dismissed - The identification of the end user device - The identification and geographical location of the cells that were used to link the end users (caller, called user) to the telecommunication network - Geographical llocation (coordinates) of the mobile satellite ground station - Type of communication (incoming, outgoing, link through, conference) [duplicate item] - GPRS service - For conference calls or call to link through services, all intermediate numbers [duplicate item] - The forwarded called number - The time span of the call - Bank account number/other means of payment - As GPRS and UMTS work on Internet base, thus all the data above mentioned (as IP address) should be preserved - For a better investigative purpose Telcos should be able to know the nature of the tgelecommunication: voice/modem/fax etc.
Terrific formatting! + my UberTelco and UberISP (Score:1)
Actually, most neo-fascist European UberISPs already log all the data requested in items 1-5 as most of them use (transparent) proxies for http and ftp. I wonder why the "last page visited" is so important to them, maybe they're trying to piece sessions together where a user disconnects and then logs on to another ISP. I'm not so sure about 6. IRC whether they already monitor it, but it's good OPSEC to assume that they do. Incidentally, the UberISP I'm subscribing to, actively assisted a German Pay-TV company by redirecting http-requests for a website containing hacking information to the homepage of the national police.
I know that my telephone Ubercompany is logging all the data they ask for and in addition to that "legitimate interests" can connect at any time without having to present a warrant to their switches to listen in to all my calls. Same thing goes for my mobile phone, and say did you know that the austrian police requested and received all cell phone subscriber information of people who were either participating or just for being in the vicinity of a demonstration?
The best kind of OPSEC in telecommunication is and always has been keeping your mouth shut.
Isn't this already standard practice? (Score:2, Informative)
Why is this a violation of privacy? While the information may be handled casually in many cases, it is not published publicly. Do users really think they have an expectation of privacy in this way? Do they really think they have a right to be untracable and unaccountable for their actions online?
I know slashdotters seem to be always fighting a losing battle for privacy, but these logs seem to be common sense.
Re:Isn't this already standard practice? (Score:1)
What the hell is going on in Europe? (Score:1, Flamebait)
So, what's going on in Europe?
Re:What the hell is going on in Europe? (Score:1)
Terrorism?
Re:What the hell is going on in Europe? (Score:2)
Re:What the hell is going on in Europe? (Score:1)
Yet, talking about revolutions, the EU people have a much shorter fuse than Americans. Normal, the government being the solution, when things go wrong, the government must change.
Not asking for a lot (Score:2)
These are actually very reasonable requests. I work for a large company that is sometimes asked to produce some of this kind of information. Most of this is kept in our basic logs. Again, this is partly for legal reasons, but also so taht we can effectively troubleshoot problems that customers may have.
These records will be gold mines for .... (Score:1, Insightful)
something tells me that when some bigshot gets tagged and embarrassed by what is divulged, there will be some additional restrictions placed on what/how data can be stored and accessed.
Re:These records will be gold mines for .... (Score:2)
Nicely paranoid, but that doesn't add up. I haven't read the directive per se, but the common way to handle this kind of data in Europe is to only make them available to law enforcement that can present a court order for the info.
So, yes, the fact that this much data gets logged is worrisome, and I'd need some iron-clad guarantees from my government to make sure abuse is curbed before I feel comfortable with it, but it is nowhere near as bad as you make it seem.
I will make sure to watch how my government is going to implement these directives.
MartWISH list (Score:3)
Europol != Europe. Seriously, does Chicago PD equal the US government? It's a draft of a law enforcement agency's wish list - a starting point for one side of a debate, not anything that's passed in to law. Just because the MPAA have probably had a debate along the lines of "OK, what'd it be cool if we could force on users?" doesn't mean they get it - or even ask for it.
Re: WISH list (Score:2)
Actually, I'm English. As a result, I come from a nation that's endured decades of [primarily US citizen sponsored (IRA)] terrorism. That in turn means that while America got to do a "Holy Shit!" knee jerk response and dress it all up as patriotism, we got over it in the 70s with internment. While England's by no mean's perfect, or even as far as "OK", the seriously insane stuff does tend to get blocked ever since we saw what a f*** up it was with internment.
Curious about the benefits... (Score:2)
Unfortunately, I don't see the immediate connection between logging ftp logs and stopping terrorism. If anything, I think the MPAA or the RIAA would have more to gain than the War on Terrorism.
So my question is, can anybody think of benfitis to this type of surveillance? I'm not looking for justification, just silver linings here and there.
Heck, I'd love to hunt down that guy who modded me down earlier. Heh.
Re:Curious about the benefits... (Score:2)
Re:Curious about the benefits... (Score:1)
ooooooooooooo!
Wish I had mod points! heh
Tuttle....Buttle.... (Score:2)
-b
Data Retention Desires? (Score:1)
Don't get your panties in a bunch, michael. (Score:5, Insightful)
- A.P.
Re:Don't get your panties in a bunch, michael. (Score:1)
What didn't you like about it? Too trollish? (not judging from the response) You think it's not realistic? Or what? I wish you would have posted a comment in my journal on the subject then! Something I could have thought about (I'm optimistic about your ability to post useful criticism). Immortalizing the sig on your list (or whomever's list it is) is aweful nice though.
yeah, offtopic...
and don't forget, I'm not asking for your opinion because it matters... I'm just curious.
Re:Don't get your panties in a bunch, michael. (Score:1)
- A.P.
Re:Don't get your panties in a bunch, michael. (Score:2)
My wish list too (Score:1)
turnabout is fair game (Score:1)
but turnabout is fair game I've taken so much shiz from canadians and europeans on how my government (USA) is so evil and corrupt and the antichrist and how does it feel euroslut or canadaslut now :P
when will you think it's a good idea to get along and not bitch and make fun of the people you relied on 50 years ago for your very existance :P
Re:turnabout is fair game (Score:2)
Who brought the Soviet Union into it?
No parliamentary control (Score:1)
Don't believe everything you read (Score:1)
Don't believe everything you read kids!
With apologies to Oscar Wilde (Score:2)
RMS (Score:1)